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Crazyheart,

I believe in angels.

In Hebrew, mal'ach, means messengers of God or God's ambassadors. It is one sent as well as one who does the work of God. It may be thought of as God's presence in a more human way...

Are they angels?

I hope so. I hope they did not die in vain. I hope their lives and deaths teach us something. I hope they do the work of God in stirring us to address guns, violence, mental health and all the brokenness of our world.

I also know some say angels and it is not as beneficent.

But, no, I don't believe in angels flying about wearing wings and halo or sitting on clouds paying harps....

The angel thingy was just sentimental goop by someone trying to convey sorrow and present hope at the same time. Not the best of choices and bordering on tacky imo, but each to their own ability to express their feelings.

Met a couple of angels once, at least it seemed the best explanation of the unexplainable. With no one else around I was walking with a buddy across what might be best described as an open  "village circle" about 200 feet across or more in Washington DC of all places. About half way across we were startled by a voice behind us saying excuse me,can you spare some change. We turned around and there were two large and about 6 foot 6 in  (not fat) men, weather worn and in dirty trench coats, typical street person appearance. We gave them a decent amount. (not out of intimidation) and went on our way.  But after about five steps we couldn't resist turning around for a last look at the men who had startled us but there was no one there. In our five steps could they have run a hundred feet to disappear? Who knows.

Hi CrazyHeart, Old Buddy,

Believing in angels is part of all Judeo-Christian faiths as well as other faiths.  For example, believing in angels is one of the six Articles of Faith in Islam.  Those of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) believe that angels are the spirits of humans who are deceased.  In Sikhism, Azrael is named as the Angel of Death.  Angels appear in the Bible from the beginning to the end, from the Book of Genesis to the Book of Revelation.  For a complete listing, click on the following link:

http://maryourmother.net/Angels.html 

Many people, both in the past and in our own time, claim to have had interactions with angels.  There are even instructions to follow on how you can interact with your guardian angel on the internet if you are interested in making the attempt.

The point is a lot of people believe in angels so don't be too quick to become indignant when a reference to them appears.  There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

I have also heard those children being referred to as angels. I don't really believe in angels (at least not in the traditional sense), but I don't find the image to be offensive as angels are generally thought of as positive beings who do God's work. I do believe, however, that we all have the power to be angelic. What I do find offensive is that is only the children who are being referred to in this way. While the adults murdered at the school are being portrayed as heroes, they aren't being called angels - and Nancy Lanza isn't being called either.

Hi CrazyHeart__ You posted--

WonderCafe has changed me in so many ways. I may have thought this about angels but I never would have said it. But here it is loud and clear. I don't believe in angels. And so the children are not angels, flying around heaven. This will be merchandized and everyone will be hawking children with wings and haloes and maling big bucks off of tragedy.______________________________--------------------______________________________________________________--------------------Airclean-Post--I wonder do you know the word Angel is in the Bible- 201 times. The word Angels-90 . You did say you don't believe? They are also called the Sons of GOD. Check Job. That the children killed  at Newtown, were 7-10. I believe you would find that Isael ,   believe until you reach a given age . I think that age is 12.  You are not held responsible for there sins .In whitch case they made it , and are the Sons  of GOD.---GOD BLESS.

Crazyheart you are correct on the obsene theology of children becoming angels.  It is not a helpful image.

Now SG gives us a good examination of angels in the bible - nothing to do with the cream cheese ads.

This is such a confusing time. People are not sure what to do or say in the wake of such a tragedy.

I do not know whether or not there are angels.

I do know that some of the newly bereaved families may take comfort in the idea that their newly deceased loved one is spending christmas with them as an angel that is there but they cannot see.

Is it bad theology? Quite probably.

Does it matter? Nope.

I'd argue that it could matter. If people are distracted by this feel-good theology, they might not take the need for urgent change so seriously. 

And I honestly don't find it a confusing time at all. I think American gun laws are nuts, their medical system COMPLETELY inadequate to deal with mental health issues (unlike ours, which is just MAINLY inadequate), and until they fix themselves, their gun culture will infect our culture.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. We have guns in Canada.

This can't be changed. Will it happen again?

Likely. There are a lot of hurting people in this world.

If I could I would wave a magic wand and let everyone see what its like when you take away all the guns. You would see that criminals could still get them and the world might be a scarier place.

We have people who are receiving mental health money and help who should be working and then we have those who really need it who get nothing. I don't know how to fix that.

Blaming the angel theology and robbing families of a tiny morsal of comfort does not fix it either.

Agreed Serena (and I don't think anyone was trying to suggest otherwise). That said, there are obviously some people who shouldn't have easy access to guns (or any other weapons, for that matter).

A newscaster said.. America, where guns are a right and medical care is not.

My thoughts fit reasonably cloely to CH's original ones. 

I think much of the problem is the personal interpretation we give to words.  Many of the disagreements in the WC come from word interpretations, don't you think?

When I hear someone say 'God' I have to fight my tendency to think they mean the god I learned about as a child (the bearded guy sitting on a cloud 'smiting' the wicked!)  Indeed, sometimes that IS what is meant.

Angels easily fit in the same category of confusing words.  Is an angel a dead chid with wings?  a flight of imagination?  an imaginary creature with wings and halo? a convenient word to use to avoid the reality of another person's genuine grief?

The reality for me is that I don't know, for sure, what another person means when they use that word unless they say a bit more. 

Let me be clear I don't believe in halo winged cherubs on clouds.

That said, I also do not believe it is my business to tell you what to believe.

If I am asked, well then I am invited to share my beliefs.

I have said here that I do not believe in street paved in gold and reuniting with everyone ever passed. Listening to someone who says, "Well, at least she is with Ralph",
I would not say, "Like hell she is" or "I don't think so"

Why? Well it is impolite, ignorant, rude, cruel....

I do not believe people die and then watch everybody like a snowglobe or reality TV. When someone says, "They are watching over you" I do not shout "Really, you think they have nothing better to do? That would be hell, imagine being stuck watching soap operas when you hated them in life..."

If you say, "I make gravy with flour", I do not say, "How dare you? That is disgusting! How dare you call that gravy, that is glue, people with sense use corn starch"

Again, even if I think all that and you make me that gravy I don't have to eat it. I do not feel entitled to insult you.

If you ask me how I make flour, then it is a question and I feel free to say "with cornstarch" and may say I think flour gravy is harder to make or gross....

We can talk about good and bad theology all we like a statement is a statement and a question is a question. You want to commenet on a statement, great. It does not mean you get a free pass on being mean or rude no matter how much you disagree(and what is good and what is bad will shift depending on the person who is calling it that and their theology)

Some deceased person may have been an asshole. We don't, based on our beliefs, stand up during the funeral service and say "They were an ass" and nobody should say "If there is a hell they are in it".

If someone believes their child is in wings with a halo playing a harp... that is their business.

If someone I love dies, it is for me to believe what I believe.

If someone asks me, then I can choose to change the topic or I can redirect it back to them with "why do you like flour gravy" or  "is that comforting to you?". If I am asked I can offer my opinion or beliefs... I can honestly say I don't know, because I don't. I can offer my beliefs. I could shake my head or nod or I could just lie.... the choice is mine.

Here, I was asked and I chose to offer my beliefs, because I was asked and I am not in a waiting room, a funeral room, nobody is weeping and I am not your pastor....

Corn starch? Seriously? :)

But I only thought that. And nobody asked me.

Of course Jesus may had said something along the lines that thought was reasonably equivalent to the deed regardless of outcome.

You know Stevie, I find it isn't hard to not make comments about people's religious beliefs because like you, it is not my business. If they ask that is a different thing.But I still try to answer respectfully.

Like the other day, bitterly cold , and with CrazyDad ill, I have to walk for the mail which is not pleasant. I took  6 steps and pumped into two Jehovah Witness women.

They wanted to talk about patience and I said,"I'm sorry. I am not  to be in the wind (gasp. gasp.)"

Smiling, they said,". we will come when you are feeling better"

.

I  said , "I am of another faith."

The woman replied,"That  will  be such a good conversation.

I said," Okay, Please get my mail for me."

They walked off waving and I walked in with my mail.

not4prophet, the cornstarch is because my wife cannot do wheat.

--------------------------------------

crazyheart, LMAO about the mail (I will not say anything about crazyheart "pumping" into two women, I won't, I won't... it is none of my business)

I do find that humour can help and so does not taking ourselves so seriously.

I am not God.
Some things only God knows.
I do not have the answers, so how dare I?
It is very important, to me, that I not usurp what is God's alone.
I can only say what I think, feel, believe....

Speaking of humour, the other day I was overheard saying "Happy Holidays" to someone who is not a Christian. Someone overheard (not from our denomination) and it was met with a semi-hissed, "It is Merry Christmas! It is not Season's Greetings or Happy Holidays... anyone who does not say Merry Christmas is not a Christian!"
I just said, "Poor Jesus"
It opened up a nice conversation.
It taught some history and often we do not know the history of our faith or even understand what we profess to believe.
 

I believe in children.

I believe in angels.

Children are not angels, just as elephants are not amoebas. They are different life-forms.

Rich blessings.

Having two children, I can firmly attest that children - at least mine - are not angels.

I have one pretty daughter with the face of an angel, and the voice of a banshee. Therefore, she does not qualify for angel (or choir member) status. I have a son who, given two opportunities that truly cause most kids with his condition to kick the bucket and at least fulfill one criteria, replied with a resounding, "Fuck that."

My thoughts, too, Bette!

So much mawkish sentimentality, so little action........

If no direct action is accomplished on gun laws, it's just a case of empty rhetoric, IMO.

I don't believe that people who die become angels in heaven.   I believe that we continue to exist in a spiritual form, but I do not consider that to be angels.

I think of angels as God's messengers.  Sometimes they may appear in humans or as humans - giving us warnings, helping us, encouraging us, comforting us, administering to us.  The three angels that appearedd to Abraham were in human form - indistinguishable from other humans.  Angels came to Jesus in the wilderness and ministered to him; could they have been wandering tribesmen who knew the ways of survival in the desert?  The angel at the tomb on Easter morning had a human form.   

Angels are associated with God's presence, with reassurances ('Fear not'), with good news.   With 'Good'.

Children might be thought of as angelic.  But children are not angels.   And children who die do not become angels. 

Serene the issue is the idea that god took someone, children the most, to be angels.  This is not comforting and one has a cruel god.

Hi crazyehart,

It is horrid angeology having nothing to do with a Biblical understanding of angels and their like and everything to do with Touched by and Angel's pop theology.

I'm not offended by it even when I hear parents use it of their own dead children.  I recognize it for what it is.  The fearful scramblings of a struggling faith.  In that, what becomes most important is not a theology lesson to correct a screwy belief, so much as a willing presence until the fear has passed and the faith isn't struggling.

Popular imagery has been less than helpful.  The narrative of scripture records that the most frequent greeting an angel has to offer is, "Do not be afraid?"  If cherubim really looked like naked babies one suspects the most frequent greeting would be more like, "Please stop laughing" or "no I don't want to be cuddled."

When somebody says, "do not be afraid" by way of greeting odds are strong that there actually is good reason to be fearful.

I believe in angels and am quite thankful that humanity seems to not come into contact with them when they apparently are very easy to piss off.  Zechariah manages it and lives to mime the tale.

Apart from that the narrative suggests that angels appear to us undercover and we entertain them unawares which means, so long as they don't look like angels we don't get frightened.

These children, as sweet as they were in life, have not now become angels in death.

It remains to be seen if any message may yet come through them.

Grace and peace to you.

John