CH -  I don't have time to fully respond to the point you make here - I have to go to (another) meeting about how our church should be changing.  What I can say in just a few words is that the line you put forward is one that conservatives have used for years to block change and it's basically this: you should be changing to fit the church and not the other way around. If you don't you're being selfish. Well, remember what Christ said about the Sabbath - that the Sabbath was made for man(kind) and not the man(kind) for the Sabbath? Well, it applies to church to - it was made for man(kind) and not the other way around. So if church isn't doing its job - if it's not giving people a sense of meaning, if it's not connecting people with God, if it's not giving them hope for a just future and a loving community - it needs to be changed. 

I like to use the term 'faith community'.  It doesn't imply a physical structure like 'church' does.

Hello crazyheart .......God bless you....

Jesus Christ I believe is the church...when we fellowship with Him and learn to be God beings instead of earthly beings we can have a church anywhere anytime...I get myself in trouble when I stray from the christian wordings...it has happened to me so many times....Christ is not a Spirit Guide but we can call Him a Spiritual Guide...is He an Ascender Master ...or is He a Ascended Teacher...I get so confused sometimes with the christian language....is it only me...???

I have been in a church with only six people...we still worshiped we still praised, we learned the Word of God ...but it was in an office setting...I think the people make it a church...but I could be wrong lol lol..when it comes to beging christian it sometimes throws me for a loop...

Good question crazyheart ...gets a person thinking ....

IJL:bg

A long standing question isn't it? I think that one of the problems with finding the answer is that many people fail to recognize that the church has already changed.

So lets set the context a bit -

When we talk about "change", we're talking, generally, about mainline churches

When we talk about "change", we're talking about introducing differences from what people *think* the church was like fifty years ago.

For me, those are the two things I observe when I enter into these conversations. Would that be a fair way to frame the discussion here?

If so, then another observation - fifty years ago, "the church" was much more the focal point of the community. Card parties (for those congregations not believing cards to be the devil's work), pot lucks, quilting bees, house raisings, informal hiring halls, you name it, if it involved the community it took place at, or as a result of, the church. So in fact the church was exactly what you describe - "entertainment; performing arts or a  service club.  Some want to go to somewhere to have fun and call it church"

 It was also worship.

The number of hours in a week that "the church" was part of people's lives was significant. Not so today - for most people church is a one to two hour commitment on some but not all Sundays. Its sole component is expected to be worship oriented.

     Ergo, "the church" is a much different entity than it was fifty years ago.

Now, is it likely that the church will regain its place of prominence in those areas outside of worship? I'd say its doubtful. People are no longer content with the simple entertainments that the church once offered.

     There are lots of people who partially recognize this - they talk about the church competing with hockey practice or the desire to sleep in after a Saturday night party. Unfortunately, they attempt to address it by going toe to toe in an area they no longer have competence in, while totally ignoring the are they still hold a monopoly on - worship.

The church should indeed change - the mainline church needs to get its act together and polish its message of "inclusive love", of God's Grace, of celebration for the eternal Presence of God in our lives.

****Please note - this is emphatically not "r'turnin' to d' BYEBUL" (always shouted in caps) that some claim is the failing of the mainline church.

There weren't any chuch buidings in Jesus' days, only Jewish temples, and Jesus and his unclean rag-tag followers did not meet in those, but mostly in the open air or each other's homes.

Farren's definition of "faith community" for a faith community is very apt. I think "church" should best be confined to the building.

A faith community can meet anywhere. I have visions of conducting a service in my orchard/garden, or down by the river, under majestic cottonwood trees, with eagles circling above, and a Medicine Wheel nearby.

Yes!

Be Blessed,

IB

Where on earth were you 50 years ago GoldenRule?  The churches there were very different from the ones I knew fifty years ago.  The ones I knew were very concerned with appearances, (without good clothes you were an outcast).  The perceived 'quality' of the congregation was important.  Young people were to attend Sunday School and keep quiet the rest of the time.  Youth got the message that they should leave as soon as they were confirmed - no point in hanging around really - there wasn't anything interesting going on.

There was a long standing group who were 'in' and made all the decisions. 

The same group ran all the fundraising events and didn't want any changes.

In ancient times the word " synagogue" actually referred to the gathering of the people, the faith community.  Later on it also came to mean the building in which the faith community met.
 

The church today is the same.  It is the faith community.  It is the people of God or if you like the body of Christ but it has also come to mean the building.

I do like the term faith community.

Yes, I agree the church must change.  It used to be the Sunday thing.  Christianity ought not to be a Sunday religion but a way of life.  The faith community is the very early church was known as "the people of the way".  Obviously this refers to the folks walking on their journey through life.

I knew of Christians who were very pious on Sunday and thought nothing of fleecing the customers during the other 6 days of the week.  Nice reputation!  I lived in a small town in eastern Ont. that usually had a pbebcite every few years.  The members of some of the churches were ouot canvasing and telling people to vogte no odr we would have drunks on every corner.  It turned out those who canvased most vehemently were the Christians from some of the local churches.  Of course they voted no, it would have ruined their bootlegging business.  BTW they were among the more fundamentalist of the churches.

In our church we worship, donate and help at the food bank, help run a lunch program for those in need, support the recycling organization, seek to help those in need etc.  Boy do we know how to party!  That also is part of our "church".  We usually gather in a pub after church on Sundays and enjoy a "fellowship meal" together.  Not every one goes but many of us do.

Shalom

Mate

I can just picture Jesus showing up for a service on the sabbath.  He probably just walked severl miles along dusty roads.  He probably didn't have a bath tub and if he did not live near the Jordan he couldn't go for a dip.  He would have been dusty, dirty and wearing very rag tag dirty clothing.  Hell, they would have tossed him out 50 years ago and told him not to come back until he cleaned up.  LOL

Shalom

Mate

Dictionary aside, I don't define a church as being a building. I define it as being a group of Jesus-followers gathered together to serve and worship God.

Hi Mate: That's why I wear overalls to church, and even conduct the service in overalls, whenever I do, four or five times a year.

In answer to your previous post. In the Yiddish dialect of Germany and Eastern Europe, a synagogue is a "shul" (pronounced "shool"), which actually means "school," and is a place of worship and assembly as well as teaching and learning. I like that concept!

Wherever two or more people have a "midrash," a spiritual get-together, worship, discussion or celebration, there is church, there is spiritual community.

"Wherever there are two or three gathered in my name, I shall be there among them."

Arminius

I don't have overalls but I always go to church casual and at times even do the seermon in genes.  For thirty years I wore a shirt and tie.  I still have a few ties but they just kind of lay around in the drawer.

As you know it is not appearance that counts but what is on the inside.

Shalom

Mate

Exactly!

What a coincidence! We all go to church in our genes (or at least, with them). Don't leave your DNA at home, folks!

I like the term faith community too but it probably does not matter what you call it.

Back in the day (which is where I wish I was cause life was way simpler than) Church was the centre of the community.  People went to Church everyday basically.  The school was in the Church.  Any community meetings were in the Church.  Dances (before they were evil....when did that happen????) were in the Church.  Hayrides and carolling were at the Church.  There were Church picnics and games after Church. 

When I was growing up it was the same way with my fundy Church....and I miss that part.  I think I was at the Church seven days per week.  On Monday night there was music practice, on Tuesday night there was a deacon/deaconess  meeting and  a prayer meeting, Wedensday night was Bible study, Thursday night was Kid's Club, Saturday morning there was usually workshops, Saturday night was prayer meeting sometimes a music concert, and there was Church twice on Sundays.  The school was beside the Church.  That was grade one to 11.  Grade 12 was in the main Sunday School class.  We did not have dances because dances were evil.  But we had trips to the zoo, trips to Christian Rock Concerts, trips to West Edmonton Mall, Church camp, tobogganing parties, trips to the lake, skating parties, New Years Eve Parties, etc.  I totally miss this.  This "community" is what kept me in the Church even after I decided that their doctrines were wrong.

Was this self gratification?   I don't think so.  We built friendships.  We worked together on evangelism.  We learned about life, we learned about love, we learned about God.  

When I left this Church I could not handle all the free time I had and became a workaholic.  Now I am a wondercafeaholic.    But seriously, community is not built in the one hour service on Sunday morning.  So more has to happen at Church.

Serena

I don't always agree with you but your last sstatement is so true.  Yes more does have to go on but instead of saying at church I would say within the faith community as opposed to just the building.  We need: more outreach, more community activities both religious and otherwise.  We need to become a more close knit family.

Shalom

Mate