Michae1
The Beast Revelation
Posted on: 08/07/2011 12:30
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.
The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.
This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.
Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you can eliminate some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet. This interpretation is misleading, and it also creates a stumbling block in the path to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.
Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to receive a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.
Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17:10, just in a slightly different appearance. There are seven kings, five are fallen. This means five kings were defeated in war. Israel is referred to the "one that is," and the one that came later is the Palestinian Authority. This is a description of Israel's war for Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.
Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Government. Hamas did not receive salaries. Also, Hamas did not receive the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.
In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.
Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.
Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.
Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.
The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similtude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistant with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching off-course for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.
May God bless all who read this letter.
Michae1
Comments
waterfall
Posted on: 08/07/2011 13:08
For what it's worth:
In May 2005, Oxford Scholars discovered from a 1700 year old papyrus (earliest known record of Revelations) that we had translated the number 666 wrong. The number is 616.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 08/07/2011 14:08
For what it's worth:
In May 2005, Oxford Scholars discovered from a 1700 year old papyrus (earliest known record of Revelations) that we had translated the number 666 wrong. The number is 616.
That's what my Hermeneutics prof told us last semester, and somehow linked it back to Nero.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 08/07/2011 14:40
i can't understand this letter, michea1... who is it you are trying to villify here? the jewish or the palestinians??
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 14:58
So exactly how is this intensive study of biblical prophecies to determine the timeing of the events of Revelations any better than the thousands of others that have been done throughout history... other than the fact that they were wrong?
How is it any better than Harold Campings prediction, other than it was wrong?
What will you be saying about your's, when it turns out also to be wrong?
Every generation of Christians from the very first one has fervently believed itself to be the "last generation". Every generation of Christians from the very first one has used exactly the same sort of speculation and conjecture to prove that the bible says they would be the last generation.
So far, every generation of Christians has been completely wrong about it.
What makes your study/prediction/speculation any better?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:01
I can't understand this letter, michae1... who is it you are trying to vilify here? the Jewish or the Palestinians??
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:10
Interpreting Revelations is the biggest crapshoot in human history. People throw interpretations at the wall and hope they stick. None have so far. As MC mentions, the Occam's Razor version is that the events mentioned belong to the writer's time and refer to people like Nero and Domitian who were responsible for persecuting Christians in the writer's time and the early church in general. It then can be read as an exhortation to uphold and maintain one's faith in times of tribulation, rather than as a reference to some specific future event.
Mendalla
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:16
I can't understand this letter, michae1... who is it you are trying to vilify here? the Jewish or the Palestinians??
You are making the unfortunate but very common mistake of equating a difference of belief with antagonism. This is usually done in order to easily demonise someone who holds a different view than you. It's hard to hate someone who just has a different opinion, but easy to hate someone if you can convince yourself they are "against" you.
Palestinians and Jews are not "against" Christ. Christ simply isn't a part of their religion.
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:18
What will you be saying about your's, when it turns out also to be wrong?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:21
I can't understand this letter, michae1... who is it you are trying to vilify here? the Jewish or the Palestinians??
You are making the unfortunate but very common mistake of equating a difference of belief with antagonism. This is usually done in order to easily demonise someone who holds a different view than you. It's hard to hate someone who just has a different opinion, but easy to hate someone if you can convince yourself they are "against" you.
Palestinians and Jews are not "against" Christ. Christ simply isn't a part of their religion.
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:27
I can't understand this letter, michae1... who is it you are trying to vilify here? the Jewish or the Palestinians??
You are making the unfortunate but very common mistake of equating a difference of belief with antagonism. This is usually done in order to easily demonise someone who holds a different view than you. It's hard to hate someone who just has a different opinion, but easy to hate someone if you can convince yourself they are "against" you.
Palestinians and Jews are not "against" Christ. Christ simply isn't a part of their religion.
So you actually think that Jews and Palestinians are "against" Christ, in other words that they are willingly in Satan's army marching to Satan's agenda to the destruction of Christianity?
People like you are very frightening.
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:32
[quote=Witch
Palestinians and Jews are not "against" Christ. Christ simply isn't a part of their religion.
[/quote]
Not strictly true in the first case.
(a) Some Palestinians are Christians, though the vast majority are Muslims.
(b) Jesus is recognized as a great prophet in Islam though they do, indeed, not acknowledge him as a literal "Son of God" or Saviour in the traditional Christian sense.
Mendalla
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 08/07/2011 15:42
I can't understand this letter, michae1... who is it you are trying to vilify here? the Jewish or the Palestinians??
Do you take into consideration the Palestinian Christians and the Messianic Jews when you say that?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:00
Do you take into consideration the Palestinian Christians and the Messianic Jews when you say that?
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:02
Palestinians and Jews are not "against" Christ. Christ simply isn't a part of their religion.
Not strictly true in the first case.
(a) Some Palestinians are Christians, though the vast majority are Muslims.
(b) Jesus is recognized as a great prophet in Islam though they do, indeed, not acknowledge him as a literal "Son of God" or Saviour in the traditional Christian sense.
Mendalla
Yes your comments added precision and clarity, Mendalla. Thank you
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:03
Do you take into consideration the Palestinian Christians and the Messianic Jews when you say that?
So then you think that I am "against" Christ? That I am a willing participant in Satan's army?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:13
Do you take into consideration the Palestinian Christians and the Messianic Jews when you say that?
So then you think that I am "against" Christ? That I am a willing participant in Satan's army?
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:29
Do you take into consideration the Palestinian Christians and the Messianic Jews when you say that?
So then you think that I am "against" Christ? That I am a willing participant in Satan's army?
I don't believe in Jesus, is that not enough to answer the question? It was enough for you for Jews and Palestinians...
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:30
I don't believe in Jesus, is that not enough to answer the question? It was enough for you for Jews and Palestinians...
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:32
I don't believe in Jesus, is that not enough to answer the question? It was enough for you for Jews and Palestinians...
How about a straight answer, you know, without all the weaseling and empty religious rhetoric
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:38
How about a straight answer, you know, without all the weaseling and empty religious rhetoric
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/07/2011 16:52
Define "accept Jesus", Michae1. I don't think everyone interprets that phrase the same way. For some it means living the ethical life he lived and taught. For some is it means accepting him as one's living Saviour. For some it means learning from the teachings and stories of Jesus. What does it mean to you?
Mendalla
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:14
Define "accept Jesus", Michae1. I don't think everyone interprets that phrase the same way. For some it means living the ethical life he lived and taught. For some is it means accepting him as one's living Saviour. For some it means learning from the teachings and stories of Jesus. What does it mean to you?
Mendalla
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:18
How about a straight answer, you know, without all the weaseling and empty religious rhetoric
More weaselling...
Are you incapable of giving a straight answer to a straight question, or are you simply unwilling to take responsibility for your words?
So once again, and this time try to have the Christ given courage to give a straight answer....
Am I "against" Christ? Am I a willing participant in Satan's army?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:27
Did you answer my question? Do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh?
GordW
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:27
Define "accept Jesus", Michae1. I don't think everyone interprets that phrase the same way. For some it means living the ethical life he lived and taught. For some is it means accepting him as one's living Saviour. For some it means learning from the teachings and stories of Jesus. What does it mean to you?
Mendalla
With a WIDE variety of understandings.
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:34
With a WIDE variety of understandings.
GordW
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:45
With a WIDE variety of understandings.
No that is Christian THeology and history. Much ink (and blood) has been spilled ttrying to ascertain who/what Jesus/Christ was/is. If you wish to claim there is only one understanding go ahead. History and theology begs to differ.
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 17:56
No that is Christian THeology and history. Much ink (and blood) has been spilled ttrying to ascertain who/what Jesus/Christ was/is. If you wish to claim there is only one understanding go ahead. History and theology begs to differ.
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:09
Did you answer my question? Do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh?
I did answer that question, even before you phrased it. I don't believe in Jesus.
Now stop weaseling and answer the question.
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:16
I did answer that question, even before you phrased it. I don't believe in Jesus.
Now stop weaseling and answer the question.
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:25
Then you have answered your own question. How much more simple can it be? If you reject Christ, there is no other God. You can believe in rocks, Satan, trees, or whatever you want to call deity. You lose...
And how do you know that you win? Maybe your interpretation is wrong and you're headed for the furnace, too. As GordW says, there have been many interpretations and understandings of Jesus over the history of the church. Why is yours correct?
And, no, I don't accept your understanding of Christ (I'm not a Christian at present) so I guess I'm condemned, too. Oh, by the way, what about that teaching about judging not lest ye be first judged or letting he who is without sin cast the first stone? Because I see a lot of judging and casting of stones in your posts.
Mendalla
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:37
I did answer that question, even before you phrased it. I don't believe in Jesus.
Now stop weaseling and answer the question.
Once more you've chosen to dance away rather than give a straight answer to a simple question. Do you lack any sense of honesty or integrity at all? How can you expect to be taken seriously at all as a Christian if you cannot be honest enough to even answer a simple question drawn from your own words? Are you a Christian or a Pharisee? Does your lofty pious original post mean any thing at all, or were you just posturing for fame in from of others?
Am I "against" Christ? Am I a willing participant in Satan's army?
Michae1
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:38
And how do you know that you win? Maybe your interpretation is wrong and you're headed for the furnace, too. As GordW says, there have been many interpretations and understandings of Jesus over the history of the church. Why is yours correct?
And, no, I don't accept your understanding of Christ (I'm not a Christian at present) so I guess I'm condemned, too. Oh, by the way, what about that teaching about judging not lest ye be first judged or letting he who is without sin cast the first stone? Because I see a lot of judging and casting of stones in your posts.
Mendalla
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 18:49
So in other words you really just came here to preach so you could rack up some holiness points and look good in the eyes of men.
But when push comes to shove, you don't have the guts to stand up and take responsibility for your words.
Not a lot faith in that preaching then, is there.
Not a big deal, we've had your kind here before, and likely will again. For every real Christian, there's at least a baker's dozen "preachers" just like you.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/07/2011 20:02
The beast is a fear-filled soul ...
Something that is often slung at peoples by the church in effort to get them to fall into the line of thinking ... of authority ... that simple people might begin to learn what authoritarian types are doing to eM. Did the word tell us that we don't need kings and tyrants?
Perhaps if we used our minds ... that imaginary thing that reaches out in all directions beyond the willis (scary intellect or just the largest gonad in the body ... mostly powered by steroids) as a talent it might be worthwhile to cultivate. Then you would be condemned for social activities ... the extent of education of the Maases ... that hate communism ... and another type of networking of the wee peoples ... scares the crap out of authoritarian sorts to see common folk thinking. I even had two people run out of church in a panic at the mere mention of the possibility of the strange functioning of the mind ... as it is often cultivated in corrupt authoritarian manna ... and we know what that breeds in the larger ends!
Then, where would all this lead if we didn't ponder and process it ... as opposing Roman rule that common folk shouldn't think about IT ... or even care for that matter. Delusion breads abstract nature ... lack of thought ... no soul tuit!
Then what proportion follows the Roman paradigm blindly? Scientists say that we are generally ignorant of something greater than 85-95% of all matter and energy ... a Black Subject to la-belle IT bluntly ... what's beyond mortal thought ... mostly myth and we don't believe that expanse exists ... Romans or Chinese built a wall around reality ... all that we know ... and tend to deny! If one shuns the mind ... would you lose thought ... you wouldn't know anything?
Any such turn of thought could bring on change ... and you know how that affects authority ... negatively? Anger fear and blind observation being closely related in the flake that includes joy and secret decision making ... for emotional folk don't make good decisions. Mnay books are wrote on the subject of dummies and their tendancy to lead because the paradigm is stoop ID! They cannot be blamed as the authorities don't wish the expense ... no matter where the money came from in the first place ... that ante ... or a beginning black thing of the Shadow ... a word of doubt tucked aware in the recesses ... folds of a mutilated ... and warped gonad ... and all scientists wonder whether space can be bent ... only in their imagination ... and simple people do not believe in this complexity of straight ahead order. Such disbelief is alternate ... it'll always come back at you ... patience is a virtue and emotional people don't like to wait for the doomsday cycle ... they rush the idiom as if they knew it all ... without looking into the holes on the page ... wee black things ... called Nubians and Hebrews in archaic sigh 'n on the page of old ... yeomen passing unnoticed as faults in the dirt of Divine Comedy! One has to wait for it to settle appropriately ... as it waits for a price ... oldest profession on earth ... a sold mind ... for a mere few pieces ... 2-moor than six ... despised pieces of hate?
chansen
Posted on: 08/07/2011 20:42
And how do you know that you win? Maybe your interpretation is wrong and you're headed for the furnace, too. As GordW says, there have been many interpretations and understandings of Jesus over the history of the church. Why is yours correct?
And, no, I don't accept your understanding of Christ (I'm not a Christian at present) so I guess I'm condemned, too. Oh, by the way, what about that teaching about judging not lest ye be first judged or letting he who is without sin cast the first stone? Because I see a lot of judging and casting of stones in your posts.
Mendalla
Meldella asks a very good question, which you sidestep again: And how do you know that you win?
It is my position that you have absolutely nothing to show for this biblical view of yours - you're just telling people that they are furnace-bound because if they aren't, you've wasted everything you've personally invested in this ridiculous story. Those Christians who feel their belief in Christianity has made them better people, at least have that going for them. If Christianity has made you a better person, I can only imagine what a miserable experience it must have been to have met you before you found "God".
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 08/07/2011 20:47
Stop feeding the troll. It's clear that this guy is bat-shit crazy.
I'm embarrassed that this thread has trailed on as long as it has.
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
chansen
Posted on: 08/07/2011 20:57
Stop feeding the troll. It's clear that this guy is bat-shit crazy.
I'm embarrassed that this thread has trailed on as long as it has.
There is nothing remarkable about his beliefs at all - they aren't far removed from those of a number of other WC members. If he sounds bat-shit crazy...well...much of religion is bat-shit crazy.
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 08/07/2011 21:07
It almost goes without saying.
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
Witch
Posted on: 08/07/2011 22:30
It almost goes without saying.
And yet we always manage to lol
Berserk
Posted on: 08/07/2011 23:29
Ah, I love it when honest seekers join in loving harmony for a nice, friendly discussion of Bible prophecy, full of fresh insight into biblical teaching. Oh, that reminds me: has anyone here actually read a scholarly commentary on Revelation and the imagery in question here? We really should ask ourselves what all this apocalyptic imagery meant to John's audience before we try read the book as a newspaper of current events.
Witch
Posted on: 08/08/2011 00:24
Ah, I love it when honest seekers join in loving harmony for a nice, friendly discussion of Bible prophecy, full of fresh insight into biblical teaching.
Instead we got Michae1.
Ahh well, wouldn't be the first time someone has popped in here with a well rehearsed sermon, seeking fame and fortune and the admiration of all Christendom.
Probably won't be the last.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/08/2011 06:17
Like the dark Shadow of T'm .. it'll pas ...
All things change, though many can't and won't see ID coming as a primal power ... the other side of BIG Bang? Can you tell me as our mind wanders at night (for those that accept the mind as partly imaginary) why we get that feeling of dropping off ... descent shin ... a leg of Scie ... huge unknown pool ... divinely unknown ... night mare to many? They've been conditioned to fear by angry gods; there must be another ...
From a file called Heritage , or Harry Scie: Eerie space? Dimension of the sol' singularity ... the integral thing ... as'§ ain't nit sum thing ... where mortal could store thoughts ... where creation stored unknown stories so you could draw from eM with some imagination ... Amos ESE. the power above ... still goan ... Mons Terre?
Powerful men thought they could control the hole thing ... on which they couldn't get a grip of even themselves ... minor thing inside space jaw'n away ... that gnawing feeling of words delaying emotions ... halting experience?
Mensal Let Ayres …
Legacy, or leg a Scie let fly …
Once thought is set loose …
It’s generally lost …
Mortals can’t get grypt of moving things that count, travelling manifestations …
Transcendental emotions, now missing thought!
You never see the emotions coming …
A see through item, as man didn’t wish to know!
It really counts on the rebound …
That instant out of time when you get the reflection …
Of all that’s passed as good when it cost your brother his share!
Comes as blast of light …
But if you don’t believe in complexity …
How’d you see a mindful thing falling upon you as vast imagination?
I once posted a list of words that were metaphors of mind …
Just bunch of let Eire?
Some call it stinky …
Like pêđστ heh hi in Eire …
Big mistake in descent ion the fall of men Sah when sleeping …
My god the soul must be alert …
Even as the bode an Saach eis falls!
Ink in, blink in, an ode!
Like life, time out in alternate space from …
Where rest was stored …
To pray upon rested thought …
Whoa man, pine in away under a tree …
In Ankh St. of the Shadow …
Just word crossing the page …
Yeoman, weaker power to the emotions that flare as dark!
The Egyptian sol’ called these Nubeans …
While the Sufi scholar, pupil of story of the alternate side of power …
Said they’re Hebrews …
What King James called devilish …
Even ambiguous words …
As sighing of winds in the tree of logic!
Perhaps mire frustration as lost casting …
Hollow souls as they arrive in irony …
Not knowing nothing as possibility for the imagination!
There’s hint of И-ich Ai …
That German philosopher …
Or perhaps eastern orthodox faith in God …
As abounds nowhere here, with His heart everywhere …
Apprehensive to the Roman type that can’t get his mind …
Stretched enough to get around it!
Unlike Amos’ve Nihilistic nature …
That would die laughing …
At how everything tried to carry along without change …
Learning being a pæn …
Mire injury in the fallout that’ll heal …
Follow true to the hard form …
Unless there’s a flaw in casting!
Lost waxen, bloe ‘n din the winds …
As light Eired Jinn heh …
Wholesome creature of God if approached with respect …
That’s allal ‘ve –ite, alloyed to the dirt, that’s life, some active some pas I’ve seen goan as oui move along!
sighsnootles
Posted on: 08/08/2011 06:57
We really should ask ourselves what all this apocalyptic imagery meant to John's audience before we try read the book as a newspaper of current events.
holy heck, i am agreeing with berserk again...
i think that the apocalypse is nigh...
revjohn
Posted on: 08/08/2011 08:15
Hello Michae1 and welcome to WonderCafe.ca
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
Dedicated to or directed to? I mean if this letter is dedicated to me (presuming I am allowed the status of Christian) I would appreciate you spending some time getting to know me. If it is directed to me I would really appreciate you spending some time getting to know me before you assume the position of my teacher.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.
So, you arrive here, spend no time getting to know us or showing anywhere that you have spent time getting to know us and you proceed to presume the role of teacher and our first lesson from you appears half-way through the course syllabus?
With respect Michae1, your teaching method sucks. You either have not been given the gift of teaching or you have neglected to train that gift. Either way this lesson as lesson or pure communication fails because you assume that we respect your authority to teach.
The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer.
Ummmmmmm I'm going to disagree with you on that Michae1. The first thing anyone should do when studying any text of scripture is simply listen to what it is saying.
In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer.
Again, with respect, Michae1 what makes you think that your questions are more important than any questions that others might bring to the text? What makes you think that the questions the text raises for you are more important to Christianity than what the text is actually saying to the audience that received it? Is there something of value in what the first audience received that translates into the relationship between God and the believer in the here and now?
Your questions, while interesting treat the text as if it is a riddle to be solved and I am not convinced that is the purpose of apocalyptic literature. Nor do I think that Revelation is concerned with identifying who the beast is so much as it is concerned with affirming for Christians that the Beast, with all of its power, is still no threat to God or the children of God.
The Bible is a history book.
The Bible is not a history book. The Bible is a series of books which chronicle the history of Redemption between God and the children of God. Using the Bible or any book from the Bible as a resource for history outside the Redemption of Creation and God's children is an abuse of scripture.
The Lord spoke in parables.
I agree. Jesus taught through the use of parable. It was not a teaching tool that Jesus used exclusively. It seems to be a tool that he used to great effect because he had some sense of the audience he was speaking to and was able to communicate to them in images that they would grasp.
The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see.
I disagree with this interpretation of Jesus' words and intent. It is clear from the text that he is not hiding anything by using parable. It is just as true that those who do not understand the imagery Jesus employs will miss the connections that Jesus was making. That is a problem which is easily corrected by turning to those who understand the image and can explain the connection. A case in point is the parable of the mustard seed. Any farmer worth their salt understands what Jesus is saying as well as any theologian worth their keep does.
I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time.
Your comparison is flawed in that it does not adequately convey the truth of parable which is to reveal rather than conceal as you suggest.
These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times.
Respectfully Michae1 that is not the case. The book of Revelation is Apocalyptic and not a parable. Treating two distinct literary types as equivalent is a tremendous mistake and hijacks the meaning of the text from what the author intends to communicate to what the audience dictates the author meant to intend. It is a massive communication failure.
Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable.
No Michae1 it is not. It doesn't matter how many religious forums you post this message to it will still not be a word substitution parable.
At this point I am not interested in continuing to address the rest of your letter. I am not convinced of your teaching ability. To be perfectly candid I think as a student of scripture you are exceedingly immature. You certainly do need to be asking more questions about scripture and its purpose. You should be asking those questions from somebody who has taken the time to be taught themselves.
If you are interested in spiritual friendship then you should know how to be a friend. Friends will learn from one another. My read of you here is that you have not come to learn from or form friendships. You have come to teach. Which again, presupposes that you have gifts and abilities to teach and again, I don't think I can stress enough how ill-equipped and poorly prepared you are for the responsibility of teaching scripture.
I am certain I will not be the only user who disagrees with you just as I am certain that others elsewhere have probably already told you the same thing. You evidence no spiritually given ability to teach. So, you can continue to try and teach knowing that you will most likely continue to fail in that regard or, you can rededicate yourself to careful study, find an excellent teacher to guide you and wait until that teacher tells you that there is nothing more that he or she can teach you and that you are ready to take on the awesome responsibility of teaching.
If you have already been through that process, your teacher was wrong.
Grace and peace to you.
John
waterfall
Posted on: 08/08/2011 09:44
Applause!!!!!
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/08/2011 09:58
I choose not to argue with you. I came to this forum for the Christians. I am not looking for the witches, or the atheists, or any religion that denies God. I am here to help those who are waiting for Jesus. If you need help, you need to read the Bible. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. You exhibit very little faith. It doesn't take much to become a Christian. Come as you are. Not as people would have you to be, or how you think you should be. Just come as you are. God will do the rest. Thank you for the conversation and now it's time for me to leave. Remember, come as you are...
Snort. No real point in answering since he says he's leaving. Apparently he missed the part about this being a forum for open-minded discussion, etc.
I do read The Bible, by the way. Just choose to interpret differently from you. For the rest, read RevJohn's response. I'm pretty much on board with it.
Incidentally, your arrogance reminds me a little of the temple leaders that Jesus sparred with. Think about it.
Mendalla
blackbelt
Posted on: 08/08/2011 10:48
I choose not to argue with you. I came to this forum for the Christians. I am not looking for the witches, or the atheists, or any religion that denies God.
Hi Michael ,
Witch doesn't deny God , nor do many other religions , nor do atheist deny God , they would have to know God first to be able to deny Him
secondly , is God's unconditional love not equal to all ? , Did Jesus not forgive his persecutors while hanging on a cross?
are your spiritual convictions threatened at all in any way if you project the same love to non Christians?
blackbelt
Posted on: 08/08/2011 10:51
With respect Michae1, your teaching method sucks.
Grace and peace to you.
John
my my
, I have never Heard you use such speech
Witch
Posted on: 08/08/2011 10:51
Thank you BB, that was very kind of you.