Well, WaterBuoy, I'm all for creation and innovation, and hate to be repetitive, but the good old tried-and-true Unitive Consciousness of "I and the Father are one" might just be The Ticket.

O know, sweet love, I always write of you,

And you, and love, are still my argument;

So all my best is dressing old words new,

Spending again what is already spent;

For as the sun is daily new and old,

So is my love still telling what is told.

-from Sonnet LXXVI by William Shakespeare

Blind faith is a destructive force, or a school of hard knocks if you will.  The fact that faith in a person maybe blind means they are not open to other possibilities of existence or even the world around them.  A closed mind is like a closed door.... hard to enter.  Look at some of those who post on here....  doesn't matter the faith they follow...  some are very closed to other ideas or trains of thought.

Hi Ronny:

"My faith is not blind—it made me see!" some posters will reply to that.

A person's faith, or whatver they believe in, is their heaven—or hell.

Looks like you picked heaven with your music, Ronny!

I am not speaking of your beliefs.  I think you have spent many years searching for who you areand IT all means to you.  I think what WaterBuoy is talking about here is blind faith.  The almost addictive nature of irrational faith. 

He wrote:  You are not allowed to think about this one ... a confined space enigma! How does one get out of a destructive pattern to a reverential (hallal --- Hebrew) space?

Confined space enigma?  Maybe he is speaking of a limited viewpoint.  Like a fundamentalist belief system. 

He wrote:  Learn the metaphor of word  ... plural to the nth degree!

Obviously there are many meanings behind a word or a series of words.  we give them names like metaphor and simile, satire and drama.  But really they are words.  Do those words carry power?  Maybe when they are strung together the right way.  But the power found in a series of words for me maybe different than for you.  I don't find the bible very useful, but I think there are some good stories.  A fundamentalist looks at the bible and sees the unaltered word of god.  That word of god has been changed and translated into several languages before it ever hit english.  So did it through pour translations lose the power of those words?  It is a question I cannot answer.  All I know is when I read the bible I find a lot of inconsistencies, where a fundamentalist finds ultimate truth.

MUSIC IS MY RELIGION is a slogan that was on a t-shirt I used to have.  That's why I said it on the other thread.

The train of thought is an unstoppable train.

Sorry Arminius, I got misread your original psot there,  I thought you were talking about yourself at first.

Maybe what is being asked here is how do you make those who seem blind, able to see again?  To see past the literal meaning of words that keep their minds locked in the proverbial cage?  the funny thing is they seem to pick and choose which words they wish to belief.  Then preachers take the picked out portions and twist the meanings to suit their pruposes/agenda/faith.

Since the Bible is composed mostly of midrashim then there is the possibility of multiple meanings to each story.  When one understands the nature of midrash  or metaphorical narrative if you wish the contradictions and inconsistencies are totally immaterial.

Don't ask "Did this really happen this way?" but ask "What did this mean when it was written and what does it mean for me today?"

Shalom

Mate

No need to apologize, Ronny, I didn't feel offended.

In my non-dualistic heaven, or universe, the offended is his or her own offender. I choose not to be offended.

I looked up midrashim, because I will be honest I was not familiar with that term and I hear it mentioned a lot on this site.  It is only way of interpreting the bible.  It seems to most common from what I read, but there are other ways to interprete it.

Hi spockis:

Two unstoppable trains, actually, racing in opposite directions.

In the cosmic analysis, we ride one, or the other. In the non-duality of the cosmic synthesis, we accomplish the impossible and ride both at the same time. We can, however, not do that while engaged in analytical thinking, but we can do it in the unthinking state of mind, as in meditation. Then we experience reality as it really is, not as we think it is.

ronny5

Glad you looked up midrash.  Too bad more wouldn't.

In the ancient times it had another meaning as well.  It was also a style of writing.  For example the Christmas story is basically midrash.  After having experienced the earthly Jesus they decided that he was indeed the Messiah.  Thus they went to the OT to use former events to explain a new and important event.  Most of the story car be found throughout the OT.

Scripture is no longer written at this time so now midash is a style of interpretation.  According to Jewish scholar the Rev. Dr. Rabbi R. Daum there can be multiple valid interpretations of any passage of scripture.  There is no one right interpretation.

Shalom

Mate

...and so, does this style of scripture leave power in the hands of the clergy? Does interpretation become a tool for pulpit power?

Spock,
I think that in fundamentalist flavours of faith the interpretation is more in the hands of the clergy.  But most faiths, I think they more want people to read and interprete for themselves.  At least that is the way I was taught when I went to catholic school.  I think that there are multiple interpretations.  And when you can sit and discuss different meanings of scripture, then you have an open religious group.  But when you have one person telling how everyone should interprete scriptures, then you end up with blind believers.  Believers who won't think for themselves.

Hi spockis:

In the spirit of midrash, the interpretive power is in the mind of the interpreter. This, however, more often than not, is a group, which also takes into account the ancient wisdom of its culture. Interpretive midrash is very much like what we do here on the café. Right now, we are having an interpretive midrash on the meaning of midrash.

In the ancient Hebraic tradition of midrash, interpretive group midrash can occur spontaneously, anytime, anywhere. "Wherever there are two or three gathered in my name."

Pretty neat, eh? 

Thanks guys.

In some churches it is power in the hands of a few but I think that in most churches you will find that that is not the case.  Most churches have no desire to control anyone but to be of service.

Shalom

Mate

Mate, I wouldn't disagree with you one bit in my experience.

I have been accused of being authoritarian and MAD by many, but as a generally introverted sort ... I find I have to shout to express one's experience. Many of those that go by intuition alone don't want to hear experiences and interpretation of hard cast roues (royal decrees). They are the rue of common sense generally.

Are there exceptions ... Oh God let me count the ways!

WaterBuoy, the voice of the radical always seems to overpower the voice of the rational.  Interpretation is a key to the understanding....  Looking at a point from other angles.  Walking in someone elses shoes.  Is it mad to question a person's belief?  I think it is more mad to NOT question it.  It's funny.....  some of the most devout, but rational religious folks (including a muslim friend I had in college) are the ones who have questioned almost every facet of their faith.  In the end they came out different, but more secure in their beliefs.  I have gone through the same process myself as a non-believer.  I have questioned why I thought  of certain beliefs/opinions I had and I realized I was becoming a radical atheist.  Why? Because I had put my focus only on the religious fundamentalists...  a small group with a very loud voice.  Well, I started to raise my voice to match theirs.  I put all religious folk in one cast, and said religion is bad.  But what I really needed to do was to take a step back, and start to question myself.  When we come from only one point of view without understanding anothers POV, how can there be understanding?  So I started to question and now I am centered in my beliefs/opinions, and I have understanding towards those of moderate faith.  The only thing I understand about the radicals is how much hate they are filled with, because I was filling with hate for religion as I was becoming a radical atheist.

And that is the biggest problem in our world today, which I think fundamentalism fuels, and that is lack of understanding.  Why?  because fundamentalists don't understand anything but their tunnel vision.  A confined space enigma.

ronny

While I did not go through the atheistic stage I too spent years questioning and searching and studying.  It was worth every once of effort and money.  In fact now I study at the Vancouver School of Theology in the summers.

Shalom

Mate