Besides what I said about vows of celebacy being unnatural and warping the sexuality of priests, I marvel at the Vatican's position against condoms, as if they could possibly have any have anything important to say on sexual matters.
There is also the sticky issue of who pays for Bishop Lahey's defense. It has been suggested that congregants are not going to be lining up to foot the bill.
I also wonder why Bishop Lahey was allowed a day to resign, so that he would be a former bishop when charged.
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 13:16
I'm not sure what you mean Crazyheart - do you mean will more people come forward with claims that they were abused?
Also Lahey wasn't allowed to resign he simply did citing personal reasons. A week later he was charged and the Leadership claim that they were completely in the dark until he was charged.
Also it is my understanding that it is not the responsibility of the diocese to pay for his legal expenses - it's the Vaticans.
crazyheart
Posted on: 10/07/2009 13:29
Meredith wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean Crazyheart - do you mean will more people come forward with claims that they were abused?
Yes, this is what I mean I think there was something on Canada AM this morning from a former survivor. Although I may have it wrong.
stardust
Posted on: 10/07/2009 14:24
CH
Maybe this is what you heard:
Shane Earle, a man who was horribly abused at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, and eventually was a key witness at the Hughes Inquiry, which looked into the abuse at the Christian Brothers school, said he found pornographic images in Bishop Lahey’s home in the mid-1980s.
He said Bishop Lahey was a trusted friend who understood what the boys at Mount Cashel had been through and it was not unusual to visit the priest for the weekend. But during one visit Mr. Earle said he found graphic pictures of aroused teenage boys in the priest’s bedroom. He did not confront the priest, but said it was one of the worst shocks of his life.
Its another very sad day for the Catholic church. I can't understand why a priest in his right mind in 2009 would take a chance on having porno on his computer considering the past abuses and scandals. Of course he never imagined they would take his computer away at the airport. I don't suppose thats very common unless security is checking for terrorists so it is very odd.
I read an odd story on the net where some parents took pics. of their newborn baby in the nude. It used to be fairly common I know. They put the pictures in to be developed and the company called the police....child porn? I'm not sure but it seems they were charged. I know webshots.com used to have lots of pics. of almost nude babies and young kids. Lahey hasn't been proven guilty yet.
Why don't priests seek help?
Quote:
“But there is something specific about being a Catholic priest: it’s what we as Catholics put on them in terms of expectations. People say, ‘He’s a holy priest, if he prays enough he should solve his problems.’
“There’s an aura we put on the priest, because he’s a spiritual leader, the powers that come with ordination. We assume that they don’t have to deal with the same concerns that the rest of us lowly humans have to deal with.”
Interesting article from the Nat. Post: read the comments too
Frankly if he has pornographic images of children on his computer then he is a risk to children (I'm praying that he has not acted on his fantasies) and I'm glad he's been caught.
I, like CH, think that more worms are going to crawl out of this can in the months to come as people become more and more disillusioned with the RC church. I live in Antigonish and grieve for the parishoners hurt by this latest travesty. The media was stopping people as they went into church on Sunday, asking young parents for their opinion. They then sat in on the Mass and took notes. Pretty disgusting imho.
stardust
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:40
Meredith
Agreed. I have a cousin living in Antigonish. She's a very strong Catholic and she will be devastated. I remember an aunt of mine in N.S. saying if Father so-and-so offered her a ride she wouldn't get in the car with him. I'm not sure they ever had a very good reputation but it was brushed under the rug for many years.
Northwind
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:41
I heard Mr. Earle being interviewed on "The Current" yesterday. He stated all the boys liked Father Lahey. Apparently Fr Lahey came to visit the orphange regularly and took boys to his home to visit quite often. It sure sounds like grooming behaviour to me. I would not be surprised if some victims come forward.
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 17:33
Meredith wrote:
Frankly if he has pornographic images of children on his computer then he is a risk to children (I'm praying that he has not acted on his fantasies) and I'm glad he's been caught.
I, like CH, think that more worms are going to crawl out of this can in the months to come as people become more and more disillusioned with the RC church. I live in Antigonish and grieve for the parishoners hurt by this latest travesty. The media was stopping people as they went into church on Sunday, asking young parents for their opinion. They then sat in on the Mass and took notes. Pretty disgusting imho.
What was disgusting? The actions of the media? They're reporting. The Catholic Church has been rocked by scandal after scandal by their priests - not the media. The reporters were doing their job by getting reactions from the congregations.
In the meantime, the diocese will not be footing the bill for Bishop Lahey's defense.
And yes, Lahey's Archbishop was warned in 1989 that Lahey had child pornography. Nothing was done about it.
But more interestingly to me, is how the Vatican's office in Ottawa arranged for a delay between Bishop Lahey being charged, and the publication of those charges. They arranged for Bishop Lahey to travel east after being charged in Ottawa, resign, then come back to Ottawa to face those charges.
I see nothing wrong with LaHaye resigning before he was charged. He has not been proven guilty but some seem to have him tried, found guilty, and spending some time in jail.
Shalom
Mate
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 17:47
Mate wrote:
I see nothing wrong with LaHaye resigning before he was charged. He has not been proven guilty but some seem to have him tried, found guilty, and spending some time in jail. Shalom Mate
I was wrong. He was charged before he resigned, so he was "Bishop" Lahey when he was charged.
But he was allowed to travel east to resign.
If anyone else was charged with child porn, just how likely would it be that the Vatican's office in Ottawa would arrange for them to skip the province? How likely would it be that their bail conditions would allow it? How would they keep word of their charges quiet for a few days?
practical
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:13
As bad as this is....and it is terrible, don't forget that the history of many churches, including the United Church of Canada in relation to abuse of children is well documented. The Catholic church just seems to have an inordinate number of abuse cases, in my opinion, because the Vatican has not grown. I hope that we all strive to protect people instead of institutions....
Mate
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:21
chansen
I have no idea how it was arranged and to me it is immaterial. He did what was expected of him.
As of yet he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
I don't like these cases because I have seen the careers of teachers ruined by false accusations that were published before trial and judgment. There reputations were ruined even though proven innocent by virtue of the confessions to lying on the part of the complainants.
I do hope that we will let this man have his day in court and if he is found guilty or innocent, then he will be appropriately dealt with.
Shalom
Mate
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:52
Chansen,
May you never face a difficult emotional time either personally or in a community you're a part of and be forced to live it out on National television with reporters questioning you continually. The people of St. Ninian's did not break the law, did not do anything wrong but because they were hurt by someone they trusted, the media assumes it is their right to invade their worship space and ask them painful questions as they gathered to try to find comfort.
What was so damned newsworthy anyway? Hearing again and againg that the people were shocked and upset about what happened? Duh. The reporters were watching and recording people's reactions as they listened to the Bishop speak to them about the situation. It was intrusive and uneccessary.
somegirl
Posted on: 10/07/2009 20:28
The reason that it is so newsworthy is that a few weeks ago Lahey worked out an out of court settlement for the victims of sexual abuse of children by priests in Antigonish. A 15 million dollar settlement to be paid not by the Catholic church but by the four parrishes where the abuse took place. The parents, siblings, uncles and aunts of the victims and possibly even the victims themselves (is they can stomach church anymore) have to pay for abuse that they had no part in.
Between the settlement and the charges this has been on the news almost non-stop here in NS for weeks now. I've heard how people feel bad for the original victims from Antigonish who, understandably, feel revictimized. I've heard how people feel bad for the people of the parrishes, the Catholic church as a whole and even Lahey. What I have not heard once is people feeling bad for the children in the images found on Lahey's computer.
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 21:25
I know that his arrest is newsworthy - My point was that the hurt parishoners reaction to his arrest, which has already been covered ad naseum already, is NOT so newsworthy that they had to show up to worship to interview them.
I'm sorry for the parishoners in my community who are hurt by this. I'm not apologizing for it either and do you really imagine that people don't care about victimized children just because you haven't heard them talk about it? I sure as hell do and so do the people of Antigonish.
I can assure you that the Roman Catholic Sisters who expressed their deep disgust and anger to my husband the other day - they feel for the children trust me.
oui
Posted on: 10/08/2009 11:53
A few months ago there was a documentary on TV that delved into a case of widespread sexual abuse carried out by one priest in the U.S. They had video of his bishop blatantly lying about it while on the stand in court.
The church just kept moving him from church to church, allowing him a continuous supply of new victims. In every case, each new congregation he was moved to had no idea of his past. In several instances, he lived with a family and abused the children at night, both boys and girls, then abused the wife/mother as well.
A psychiatrist who specializes in this type of case mentioned in the film that the culture of priests has no respect or normal understanding of sex partly because they are often encouraged into the priesthood around age 14 or younger.
She said this has been common for about 1000 years. She said priests are not allowed any "normal" expression of sexuality, and it easily becomes deviant, especially so in the institutionalized setting, where it is passed along from generation to generation.
So the young men are raised at a very impressionable time by a group that already has an intrinsically warped view and practice of sex.
I don't think the Vatican will go for married priests however, because it would stand to lose too much money thru spousal support and inheritance issues. Celibacy was eventually required because of this in the first place.
stardust
Posted on: 10/08/2009 14:16
Someone posted this on a forum to show that it isn't only the Catholic Church that has sex abusers.
Non-Catholic Canadian clergy who have been in the news the last couple of years.
Certainly, Lahey should not have been collecting chid porn pictures. But that is not, as some have suggested, the same as phsyically abusing children. I don't justify either, and I don't suggest one is lesser than the other. I do suggest these are two, different acts which may suggest different approaches to treatment.
I would also expect a Christian site to concern itself more with treatment than with explosions of (self) rightous indignation.
chansen
Posted on: 10/09/2009 08:21
graeme wrote:
I would also expect a Christian site to concern itself more with treatment than with explosions of (self) rightous indignation.
I've been on a number of Christian sites. I've come to expect the latter.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 10/09/2009 12:17
Strange. This whole case has stirred up a lot of memories, not only of the experiences of a couple of my friends, but a creepy feeling I got about thirty years ago talking to a priest. He mentioned how much he loved the young boys that played sports affiliated with his parish. His words were something like, "I just love to grab them and hug and kiss them!".
I'm wondering if this was meant to act as a way of covering his ass if any of those boys disclosed abuse. He could say the kids were wrong and the touching was a public expression of Christ's love.
At the time, this stuff wasn't even on my radar. It's not hard to imagine that it wasn't on other people's radar either.
Is there a statute of limitations on this kind of thing? It's haunting me. Was he an abuser? Was he ever caught?
Am I paranoid because of the attention this abuse is being given?
stardust
Posted on: 10/09/2009 12:39
ninjafaery
Its making me think back too to about 7 years ago but it wasn't a priest in question.
After school a group of parents and myself would always go to a playground in a park. Our kids or grandkids were in kindergarten. There was a grandfather there who was always touching the little girls on their legs, bums etc. It was in the guise of helping them climb up or sit on the monkey bars, lifting them up while helping them to climb trees etc.
I noticed that he was doing this every day and spending a lot of extra time patting them etc. after they were already up on the monkey bars sitting down. I mentioned it to one of the mothers. She seemed rather insulted that I would even think of such a thing. They all knew the man I guess. Anyhow, word must have gotten around because he did stop the behaviour and he stopped smiling at me. I didn't feel that I had support in general for my thoughts. He was just a kind old man.....
Comments
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 12:28
Besides what I said about vows of celebacy being unnatural and warping the sexuality of priests, I marvel at the Vatican's position against condoms, as if they could possibly have any have anything important to say on sexual matters.
There is also the sticky issue of who pays for Bishop Lahey's defense. It has been suggested that congregants are not going to be lining up to foot the bill.
I also wonder why Bishop Lahey was allowed a day to resign, so that he would be a former bishop when charged.
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 13:16
I'm not sure what you mean Crazyheart - do you mean will more people come forward with claims that they were abused?
Also Lahey wasn't allowed to resign he simply did citing personal reasons. A week later he was charged and the Leadership claim that they were completely in the dark until he was charged.
Also it is my understanding that it is not the responsibility of the diocese to pay for his legal expenses - it's the Vaticans.
crazyheart
Posted on: 10/07/2009 13:29
I'm not sure what you mean Crazyheart - do you mean will more people come forward with claims that they were abused?
Yes, this is what I mean I think there was something on Canada AM this morning from a former survivor. Although I may have it wrong.
stardust
Posted on: 10/07/2009 14:24
CH
Maybe this is what you heard:
Shane Earle, a man who was horribly abused at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, and eventually was a key witness at the Hughes Inquiry, which looked into the abuse at the Christian Brothers school, said he found pornographic images in Bishop Lahey’s home in the mid-1980s.
He said Bishop Lahey was a trusted friend who understood what the boys at Mount Cashel had been through and it was not unusual to visit the priest for the weekend. But during one visit Mr. Earle said he found graphic pictures of aroused teenage boys in the priest’s bedroom. He did not confront the priest, but said it was one of the worst shocks of his life.
stardust
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:02
CH
Its another very sad day for the Catholic church. I can't understand why a priest in his right mind in 2009 would take a chance on having porno on his computer considering the past abuses and scandals. Of course he never imagined they would take his computer away at the airport. I don't suppose thats very common unless security is checking for terrorists so it is very odd.
I read an odd story on the net where some parents took pics. of their newborn baby in the nude. It used to be fairly common I know. They put the pictures in to be developed and the company called the police....child porn? I'm not sure but it seems they were charged. I know webshots.com used to have lots of pics. of almost nude babies and young kids. Lahey hasn't been proven guilty yet.
Why don't priests seek help?
Quote:
“But there is something specific about being a Catholic priest: it’s what we as Catholics put on them in terms of expectations. People say, ‘He’s a holy priest, if he prays enough he should solve his problems.’
“There’s an aura we put on the priest, because he’s a spiritual leader, the powers that come with ordination. We assume that they don’t have to deal with the same concerns that the rest of us lowly humans have to deal with.”
Interesting article from the Nat. Post: read the comments too
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/10/01/asking-for-help-not-easy-for-priests.aspx
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:10
Frankly if he has pornographic images of children on his computer then he is a risk to children (I'm praying that he has not acted on his fantasies) and I'm glad he's been caught.
I, like CH, think that more worms are going to crawl out of this can in the months to come as people become more and more disillusioned with the RC church. I live in Antigonish and grieve for the parishoners hurt by this latest travesty. The media was stopping people as they went into church on Sunday, asking young parents for their opinion. They then sat in on the Mass and took notes. Pretty disgusting imho.
stardust
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:40
Meredith
Agreed. I have a cousin living in Antigonish. She's a very strong Catholic and she will be devastated. I remember an aunt of mine in N.S. saying if Father so-and-so offered her a ride she wouldn't get in the car with him. I'm not sure they ever had a very good reputation but it was brushed under the rug for many years.
Northwind
Posted on: 10/07/2009 15:41
I heard Mr. Earle being interviewed on "The Current" yesterday. He stated all the boys liked Father Lahey. Apparently Fr Lahey came to visit the orphange regularly and took boys to his home to visit quite often. It sure sounds like grooming behaviour to me. I would not be surprised if some victims come forward.
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 17:33
Frankly if he has pornographic images of children on his computer then he is a risk to children (I'm praying that he has not acted on his fantasies) and I'm glad he's been caught.
I, like CH, think that more worms are going to crawl out of this can in the months to come as people become more and more disillusioned with the RC church. I live in Antigonish and grieve for the parishoners hurt by this latest travesty. The media was stopping people as they went into church on Sunday, asking young parents for their opinion. They then sat in on the Mass and took notes. Pretty disgusting imho.
What was disgusting? The actions of the media? They're reporting. The Catholic Church has been rocked by scandal after scandal by their priests - not the media. The reporters were doing their job by getting reactions from the congregations.
In the meantime, the diocese will not be footing the bill for Bishop Lahey's defense.
And yes, Lahey's Archbishop was warned in 1989 that Lahey had child pornography. Nothing was done about it.
Links:
http://cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=16895
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2069365
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2009/10/05/nl-mollo...
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/10/05/ns-lahey-legal.html
But more interestingly to me, is how the Vatican's office in Ottawa arranged for a delay between Bishop Lahey being charged, and the publication of those charges. They arranged for Bishop Lahey to travel east after being charged in Ottawa, resign, then come back to Ottawa to face those charges.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Vatican+arranged+hideout+plans+bishop+...
Mate
Posted on: 10/07/2009 17:42
I see nothing wrong with LaHaye resigning before he was charged. He has not been proven guilty but some seem to have him tried, found guilty, and spending some time in jail.
Shalom
Mate
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 17:47
I was wrong. He was charged before he resigned, so he was "Bishop" Lahey when he was charged.
But he was allowed to travel east to resign.
If anyone else was charged with child porn, just how likely would it be that the Vatican's office in Ottawa would arrange for them to skip the province? How likely would it be that their bail conditions would allow it? How would they keep word of their charges quiet for a few days?
practical
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:13
As bad as this is....and it is terrible, don't forget that the history of many churches, including the United Church of Canada in relation to abuse of children is well documented. The Catholic church just seems to have an inordinate number of abuse cases, in my opinion, because the Vatican has not grown. I hope that we all strive to protect people instead of institutions....
Mate
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:21
chansen
I have no idea how it was arranged and to me it is immaterial. He did what was expected of him.
As of yet he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
I don't like these cases because I have seen the careers of teachers ruined by false accusations that were published before trial and judgment. There reputations were ruined even though proven innocent by virtue of the confessions to lying on the part of the complainants.
I do hope that we will let this man have his day in court and if he is found guilty or innocent, then he will be appropriately dealt with.
Shalom
Mate
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 18:52
Chansen,
May you never face a difficult emotional time either personally or in a community you're a part of and be forced to live it out on National television with reporters questioning you continually. The people of St. Ninian's did not break the law, did not do anything wrong but because they were hurt by someone they trusted, the media assumes it is their right to invade their worship space and ask them painful questions as they gathered to try to find comfort.
What was so damned newsworthy anyway? Hearing again and againg that the people were shocked and upset about what happened? Duh. The reporters were watching and recording people's reactions as they listened to the Bishop speak to them about the situation. It was intrusive and uneccessary.
somegirl
Posted on: 10/07/2009 20:28
The reason that it is so newsworthy is that a few weeks ago Lahey worked out an out of court settlement for the victims of sexual abuse of children by priests in Antigonish. A 15 million dollar settlement to be paid not by the Catholic church but by the four parrishes where the abuse took place. The parents, siblings, uncles and aunts of the victims and possibly even the victims themselves (is they can stomach church anymore) have to pay for abuse that they had no part in.
Between the settlement and the charges this has been on the news almost non-stop here in NS for weeks now. I've heard how people feel bad for the original victims from Antigonish who, understandably, feel revictimized. I've heard how people feel bad for the people of the parrishes, the Catholic church as a whole and even Lahey. What I have not heard once is people feeling bad for the children in the images found on Lahey's computer.
Meredith
Posted on: 10/07/2009 21:25
I know that his arrest is newsworthy - My point was that the hurt parishoners reaction to his arrest, which has already been covered ad naseum already, is NOT so newsworthy that they had to show up to worship to interview them.
I'm sorry for the parishoners in my community who are hurt by this. I'm not apologizing for it either and do you really imagine that people don't care about victimized children just because you haven't heard them talk about it? I sure as hell do and so do the people of Antigonish.
I can assure you that the Roman Catholic Sisters who expressed their deep disgust and anger to my husband the other day - they feel for the children trust me.
oui
Posted on: 10/08/2009 11:53
A few months ago there was a documentary on TV that delved into a case of widespread sexual abuse carried out by one priest in the U.S. They had video of his bishop blatantly lying about it while on the stand in court.
The church just kept moving him from church to church, allowing him a continuous supply of new victims. In every case, each new congregation he was moved to had no idea of his past. In several instances, he lived with a family and abused the children at night, both boys and girls, then abused the wife/mother as well.
A psychiatrist who specializes in this type of case mentioned in the film that the culture of priests has no respect or normal understanding of sex partly because they are often encouraged into the priesthood around age 14 or younger.
She said this has been common for about 1000 years. She said priests are not allowed any "normal" expression of sexuality, and it easily becomes deviant, especially so in the institutionalized setting, where it is passed along from generation to generation.
So the young men are raised at a very impressionable time by a group that already has an intrinsically warped view and practice of sex.
I don't think the Vatican will go for married priests however, because it would stand to lose too much money thru spousal support and inheritance issues. Celibacy was eventually required because of this in the first place.
stardust
Posted on: 10/08/2009 14:16
Someone posted this on a forum to show that it isn't only the Catholic Church that has sex abusers.
Non-Catholic Canadian clergy who have been in the news the last couple of years.
http://tinyurl.com/y9bq2fg
graeme
Posted on: 10/09/2009 07:40
There is surely just a touch of hysteria here.
Certainly, Lahey should not have been collecting chid porn pictures. But that is not, as some have suggested, the same as phsyically abusing children. I don't justify either, and I don't suggest one is lesser than the other. I do suggest these are two, different acts which may suggest different approaches to treatment.
I would also expect a Christian site to concern itself more with treatment than with explosions of (self) rightous indignation.
chansen
Posted on: 10/09/2009 08:21
I've been on a number of Christian sites. I've come to expect the latter.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 10/09/2009 12:17
Strange. This whole case has stirred up a lot of memories, not only of the experiences of a couple of my friends, but a creepy feeling I got about thirty years ago talking to a priest. He mentioned how much he loved the young boys that played sports affiliated with his parish. His words were something like, "I just love to grab them and hug and kiss them!".
I'm wondering if this was meant to act as a way of covering his ass if any of those boys disclosed abuse. He could say the kids were wrong and the touching was a public expression of Christ's love.
At the time, this stuff wasn't even on my radar. It's not hard to imagine that it wasn't on other people's radar either.
Is there a statute of limitations on this kind of thing? It's haunting me. Was he an abuser? Was he ever caught?
Am I paranoid because of the attention this abuse is being given?
stardust
Posted on: 10/09/2009 12:39
ninjafaery
Its making me think back too to about 7 years ago but it wasn't a priest in question.
After school a group of parents and myself would always go to a playground in a park. Our kids or grandkids were in kindergarten. There was a grandfather there who was always touching the little girls on their legs, bums etc. It was in the guise of helping them climb up or sit on the monkey bars, lifting them up while helping them to climb trees etc.
I noticed that he was doing this every day and spending a lot of extra time patting them etc. after they were already up on the monkey bars sitting down. I mentioned it to one of the mothers. She seemed rather insulted that I would even think of such a thing. They all knew the man I guess. Anyhow, word must have gotten around because he did stop the behaviour and he stopped smiling at me. I didn't feel that I had support in general for my thoughts. He was just a kind old man.....