The foregoing was well spaced when I composed it, but now it is all jammed together. What did I do wrong?

Oh, I almost forgot the bump to get it rolling.

Also, I have wondermail in my inbox, but can't access it. Help, please?

Well, I figured it out. Full HTML is the answer!

Hi Arminius, 

As I think this through, these are some of the key points I have noted:

• 70% of the world's religions are at the Blue stage
• The Orange stage is the most dominant in society today, emphasizing reason and empowerment of the individual
• Most liberal denominations have a Green center of gravity, which offers more empathy than orange but believes it has reached the highest level of development
• only 2% of the population is at Tier 2 (Yellow or Turquoise)
• Every stage has its "dignities" and its "disasters".

And here are some questions to ponder:

• On the spiral, where was the church of your childhood?
• On the spiral, where is the church you attend now?  Is there much variation from the center of gravity for individuals in your congregation?
• Where would you place the theology of Gretta Vosper as outlined in With or Without God?
• Where would you place authors such as Marcus Borg, Anthony Robinson and Brian McLaren, who are talking about bridging the gap between conservative and liberal expressions of Christianity?

This has been really interesting to mull over,  Arminius, but it has taken me some time to think about it all.  How is the book study going in Real Life at your church?  Have you been able to identify your "non-negotiables" as a congregation yet? 

Thanks for your work in summarizing the chapters for us ...P3

Hi paradox3:

Thanks for replying and helping me along with this difficult thread by giving us points to ponder.

To answer your questions. The church of my chlidhood was solidly Blue. The one I attend now is more of a rainbow church, ranging from Turquoise to Yellow to Green to Orange to Blue and even a little Red, with the "centre of gravity" at Blue.

Gretta Vosper's "With or Without God" obviously comes out of the Orange level, with maybe a little Green. At the Orange level, the moral teachings of Christianity become "worthwhile teachings" without leaving room for the spirituality from which they arose. The Orange level identifies spirituality with Blue and Red, and vehemently dissociates itself from those, thereby throwing out the baby (Spirit) with the bath water (literalism, absolutism, dogmatism, traditionalism, etc.)

The possibility that there can be spirtuality without literalism, absolutism, dogmatism or traditionalism, and the simple fact that love of tradition does not equate traditionalism, does not seem to occur to Orange reformers like Gretta. Moreover, the absence of Turquoise is glaringly obvious in her book.

I would place Borg and McLaren at the Turquoise level (I haven't read Robinson). This, of course, means with a "Turquoise centre of gravity," leaning somewhat toward previous levels, with McLaren displaying strong Blue leaning.

The book study at our congregation is going full tilt, but we haven't come to a consensus on our non-negotiables yet. Spirituality; yes. The teachings of Jesus, and Jesus as our foremost mentor, sage, and guide; yes. But Biblical literacy is still out in the open.

I have led four lay services and preached four sermons so far this year. They all came from the Turquiose level, but were surprisingly well received by the Blue centre of our congregation.

I think this is what Jesus did: inspiring the Beige, Red, and Blue people of his time from his Turquoise level, which was limited to the knowledge available to him at that time. Today's Turquoise level obvioulsy teaches from the level of knowledge available to us today, but still is the same mystical Turquoise level of cosmic unity and at-one-ment.

In Cosmic Unity,

Arminius

This stuff was wonderfully enlightening for me - I so enjoyed Bruce's treament of it. It also helped me with some of my frustration of the United Church. What gets to me sometimes is the way that some folks in the UCC believe that we are all responsible for everyone else's emotional reactivity. So if something "offends" someone, for instance, we should not say it or do it. And if someone becomes offended, then it is never the responsibility of the one offended - it is ALWAYS of the person who triggered the emotion.

I don't want to get off on a tangent about that...it's just one example of being very "green". And there is more to communal behavior, more to the kingdom even, more to our life together than this. There is a higher level, a deeper level. One time Bruce and I were talking over lunch (sorry to name-drop but I want to give proper credit) and we were saying that being "politically correct"  or "tolerant of everyone" is a culture in and of itself ... not the highest, deepest, and only "truth".

Very interesting stuff.  I should really re-read that chapter so I can say more!

Hi LoveJoy: Thanks for joining the discussion!

For me, too, "The emerging Church" was fascinating, one of the most enlightening books I ever read on the subject. Although I operate mainly from the Turquoise level, I tended to slip back into the intellectual/spiritual conceit of Yellow, and sometimes the over-egalitarianism of Green, and sometimes even into the purely intellectual conceit of Orange. No more!

Being always "tolerant" and "politically correct," and not expressing deeply felt truths for fear of offending others is, of course, typical of the Green stage.

The offended--not the offender--is responsible for feeling offended. Too many of us are afraid of expressing deeply felt truths for fear of offending others. "Emotional intelligence" and other aspects of leadership Bruce discusses in chapters eight and nine empower us to speak our deeply felt inner truths boldly, without fear of offending others.

In chapter eight Bruce acknowledge his indebtedness on the topic of leadership to you and your book "Evoking Change." We discussed chapter eight at our congregational book discussion group today, and I suggested to them that we make your "Evoking Change" the subject of our next book discussion. I will then also disuss it here on wondercafe, and we'll hopefully hear a few words directly from the horse's (or mare's :-) mouth.

Four people from our book discussion group will go to Bruce's workshop in Pentiction on Nov. 1st. I look forward to meeting him and hearing from him in person, and will report on it here on wondercafe.

Another place the United Church sits squarely in "Green" is their insistence that clergy and laypeople are "equal". I'm in fear and trembling just typing that cuz it sounds terrible. Of course, in God's eyes we're all equal, and our gifts and contributions are equally valuable. But in an attempt to make clergy and lay-ministers "more equal", rather than work at raising lay-ministers "up" they brought clergy leaders "down" by making our pay virtually the same. Now after over a decade of this, which has done nothing but make it impossible for "staff associates" to get more than part-time work, the church is finally re-thinking this and making some changes.

Anyway, I digress. What I learned from Bruce's book in this chapter is that we can learn that there are "higher" ways to be - and we can strive for them.

Hello Arminius,

Yes, I agree with you about this being a difficult thread.  I have read chapter 5 several times, and have been helped along by your (and Lovejoy's) comments.  Thanks for starting such an interesting conversation. 

When it comes to Borg and McLaren, I  would probably place them at Yellow rather than Turquoise.  At Yellow,  we start to see the dignity and disaster of each stage, and become interested in the health of the entire spiral.  Yellow values support the healthiest expression of each prior stage, and I think this is reflected in the desire to bring conservative and liberal elements of Christianity closer together.  

The process Bruce suggests for a congregation is to determine its non-negotiables, write a values statement, and finally apply the spiral dynamics system to the values which have been articulated.   My church developed a set of "discipleship guidelines" a few years ago, and I will give some thought to how they fit into the spiral dynamics framework.

Hello Lovejoy,

Lucky you, having lunch with the author of  The Emerging Church !!!    

Arminius, Here are the "Discipleship Guidelines" I mentioned above:

As a member of Ebenezer United Church and with God as my helper, I will: 

1.  Engage in a worship service every week.

2.  Participate in other worship and spiritual opportunities.

3.  Offer my time, talents and support to the life of the church.

4.  Pray every day.

5.  Grow spiritually through studying the bible, meditating and reading inspirational works.

6.  Rejoice in God’s creation, be aware of the needs of others and live responsibly.

7.  Support the church’s outreach, work for justice and develop a deep understanding of underlying issues.

8.  Give generously and act compassionately.

9.  Share my faith and love of God in word and deed.

10. Develop respectful relationships with people of other faiths.

Arminius,

A few months ago, I posted the guidelines on an R and F thread.  RevJamesMurray commented that they could be open to a variety of interpretations.  At the time, I was surprised by his comments, but I realized that a shared understanding was developing within my congregation.  I began thinking that it would be important for us to try to state the guidelines a little more clearly.

Spiral dynamics is giving me a very helpful framework here.  When I review them, I think that guidelines 1 - 9 could reflect values anywhere from Blue to Yellow/ Turquoise.  And guideline 10 could reflect values from Orange to Yellow/ Turquoise.  It would be very useful for us to review the guidelines through the lens of spiral dynamics. 

Interesting to reflect upon. 

LoveJoy: Yes, one valuable lesson Bruce taught us is that evolutionary stages do constitute a hierachy, but a natural hierarchy, not a dominator hierarchy, as the term "hierarchy" is generally understood by the Green level.

In a natural hierarchy, the greater whole transcends and includes the lesser wholes. Thus, the higher level is not only a master but also a server of all previous and inclusive levels. A masterly server, if you will. A server of the whole, dedicated to the wellbeing of the whole, but doing it masterfully.

This kind of masterly servership is mastership without elitism. The higher one rises in the natural hierarchy, the more devoted a servant one becomes. And those at the very top are the "lowest," meaning the most devoted, servants, but also the "highest" masters.

Jesus (among others) was such a master.

paradox3: So you think Borg and McLaren aren't mystics?

From my understanding of the Yellow level, Yellow is the intellectual apprehension of Tier 2, and this is why the Yellow stage is prone to elitism or intellectual conceit.

On the Turquoise level, one expereinces mystically what one apprehends conceptually on the Yellow level. At the Turquoise level, Cosmic Unity is both conceptual and experiential, and the elitism of Yellow wanes.

I can't say whether Borg and McLaren are mystics; only they themselves can tell.

I love your Discipleship Guidelines, and I fully agree with them. Anything is open to interpretation, but they are not ambiguous, particuarly not when seen from the Turquoise or Yellow stage.

As I said before, I find myself at a Turquoise centre of gravity, with tendencies to slip into Yellow and lower. But these tendencies lessen as I, thanks to Bruce's book and the discussion we are having, become more and more understanding and supportive of the positive aspects of all levels.

Well, they might be .  

It is hard to tell from reading their books, because they are writing from an "intellectual" point of view.  If a person wrote from a "mystical" point of view, it would be more in the nature of story, wouldn't it?  Or some other art form? 

Arminius,

You have delineated the differences between the Yellow and Turquoise levels quite nicely.   The "disaster" of Yellow is the intellectual conceit you describe, but Bruce says on page 88 that there is more dignity than disaster to this stage.   He seems to be saying that the dignity lies in its ability to appreciate the previous stages, and to access the strengths inherent in them (Red's action orientation, Blue's moral purpose, Green's world-centric vision). 

Arminius, 

Another author writing within a Yellow values system is Harold Kushner, IMHO.  He is a Jewish author, and is advocating for mutual respect and understanding between Jews and Christians. 

Yes, paradox3, I agree. It would me more poetic, coming more from the level of feeling.

"everything must change" by McLaren didn't strike me as particularly poetic. Apart from the frequent Biblical quotes, it is more like a manual. So is Bruce's "The emerging Church," but he waxes profoundly mystically poetic at times, and his mystical inspiration becomes obvious.

I'm almost sure that Bishop Spong is a mystic, although I haven't yet read anything by him that might lead me to that conclusion. As Bruce said, any stage can come accompanied by a mystical state, and this can lead to the potentially dangerous conclusion that God has sanctioned that particular stage. This is especially dangerous at the Red (warrior) stage, and can lead to religious wars or religious fanatics blowing themselves and others to pieces in the perceived service to God.

Only when Tier 2 is well conceptualized and mystically expereinced, is the potential danger of mysticism removed.

Hitler is the worst case in point of the potential destructiveness of mystical experience in the Red (warrior) stage. He had a mystical experience while contemplating the Crown Jewels of the House of Hapsburg (the last of the Holy Roman Emperors) and the Spear of Longinus (the spear that pierced Jesus' side) which were on exhibit together at the Museum of the House of Hapsburg in Vienna. Through that experience,  he felt himself chosen by whatever deity he believed in to be the warrior king of the world. Fired on by his mystical fervor, he managed to seduce the masses.

paradox3: Yes, of course, there is more dignity than disaster to the Yellow stage. It is, after all, the conceptualization of The Unitive State as the ultimate state of being, and one thinks and acts from that insight. But it is only an intellectual insight!

Yellow is the Unitive State as an intellectuall insight; Turquoise adds the mystical experience of that state to the intellectual insight: the longed for Union between reason and intuition, logic and mystcism, science and spirituality.

Welcome back to Eden!

This has been a most interesting conversation for Thanksgiving weekend, Arminius. 

Chapter 6 with "What colour is your Christ?" is going to make more sense to me now.  Looking forward to it.

Hi paradox3: Just the right food-for-thought to give thanks for on Thanksgiving, eh?

Yes, chapter 6 further illuminates chapter 5, and explains why the longed-for union between science and spirtuality has been so long in coming.

The "lower" levels literally can't see beyond their level, and this also applies to the Orange level. Universities operate mainly from Orange, and associate spirtuality with Blue and Red, which they reject. That there can be a spirtuality (Tier 2) that is inclusive of science does not occur to the Orange level, neither does it occur to the Blue and Red levels. But the Green level already begins to incline toward Tier 2.

Anyway, I'll let this chapter stand for another week or so, and then commence with chapter 6, after which I'll hand the reins over to you. Perhaps you'll be able to attract more interest to this book discussion. At least half a dozen people expressed interest when you announced it in July, but some people told me that they will join us once winter sets in, and they have more time for reading, contemplating, and discussing. "The emerging Church," after all, is not an easy book, and perhaps disturbing or even threatening to some.

Hi Arminius,

Green certainly has the seeds of Tier 2, but one of its "disasters" is its tendency to think it has evolved to the highest possible level.   So I would say that Green also has difficulty seeing beyond its level. 

 Agreed, Arminius.  It is not light reading, that's for sure.  Hopefully more folks will be able to join the discussion soon, but don't be discouraged.  The WWG threads attracted more attention, but it was a more widely promoted and controversial book.

paradox3: Yes, I agree. Green has the tendency to think itself the highest possible level, and therefore has difficulty seeing beyond itself. I have some New Age friends who are at the Green level and believe they have "arrived."

No, paradox3, I'm not discouraged. I do this because I feel an inner urge to do it, and doing it is its own reward. This is not to say that some additional attention would not be an additional reward

And yes, "The emerging Church" is not controversial or infamously famous, like "With or WIthout God," just heavy. And it is not difficult to read. Unlike some other philosophical works, it is written in easy-to-read prose. The philosophical/spiritual concepts it presents are heavy, though. But it is a very worthwhile read for anyone who wants to evolve spiritually or get to know the concept of spiritual evolution.

Very few of us, if any, are fully evolved. The price for ascending the heavenly spiral is a heavy one: The higher one ascends, the lower one descends. The higher one evolves up the spiral, the more of a servant of the entire spiral one becomes.

The difference betweeen a dominator hierarchy and a natural hierarchcy, as Bruce calls them, is that we move in only one direction in a dominator hierarchy: up. But in a natural hierarchy we move up and correspondingly down.

The highest evolved are the most devoted servants of the whole spiral because the highest evolved are the spiral.

In Cosmic Unity,

Arminius

Hi Arminius,

You wrote, { Green has the tendency to think itself the highest possible level, and therefore has difficulty seeing beyond itself. I have some New Age friends who are at the Green level and believe they have "arrived." }

Some (not all) progressive Christians give me this impression, too. 

There is, of course, no consensus of opinion about what it means to be a "progressive" Christian.  It is interesting that both Bruce and Gretta claim this title for themselves, yet their theology is so different.   There are some commonalities, however, as both authors have moved beyond the Red and Blue levels Bruce describes in his book.

You wrote, { And yes, "The emerging Church" is not controversial or infamously famous, like "With or WIthout God," just heavy. And it is not difficult to read. Unlike some other philosophical works, it is written in easy-to-read prose. The philosophical/spiritual concepts it presents are heavy, though.}

Absolutely!  It is easy to read, but the ideas Bruce presents are very complex ones.   

You wrote, { The higher one evolves up the spiral, the more of a servant of the entire spiral one becomes. } 

Hmmm... this reminds me of Sylvia Dunstan's hymn, "You, Lord, Are Both Lamb and Shepherd" (VU #210).  Thanks for the conversation!

Hi paradox3:

Yes, both Bruce and Gretta identify themselves as "progressive" Christians. It think the major difference betweeen them is their stage. Gretta seems to typify the Orange stage, Bruce the Turquoise stage. I can't say for sure, though, for even the Turquoise stage can reach down to Orange and other levels in some aspects, and the Orange level has the potential to ascend to Green and Yellow. There seems to be some Green and perhaps even a little Yellow in Gretta's book. Unfortunately, Turquoise is missing.

Bruce speaks in terms of being on one level as one's "centre of gravity," yet still branch up or down the spiral to other levels in some aspects of one's life or faith.

"The price for getting the Grail is that the Grail gets you," it says in one of the Grail legends.

Unity with God as the totality of being comes at a cost. One becomes not only at-one with the totality, but a  servant of the totality. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THAT!

In the traditional notion of a separate God, unity with God seems like utter conceit. When God is seen as the totality of being, however, then unity with God is unity with the totality. Then one identfies with the totality, and thinks, lives, breathes and acts as the totality. This is not utter conceit but the deepest humility!

"Nearer, my God, to Thee!"

Hi Arminius, 

You said upthread that the center of gravity of your congregation in Lumby is Blue.  What would you say is the center of gravity of the wondercafe virtual faith community?  Is it Green, which is most typical of the liberal church?   

Like you said about your RL congregation, we probably have a rainbow here, but what is wondercafe's center of gravity?  

I am looking forward to Chapter 6 Arminius, and I will be happy to do the summaries starting with Chapter 7, as you suggested.

Hi paradox3: I would say that the the center of gravity of our virtual faith community here at wondercafe is Green. WonderCafe is, of course, somewhat of a rainbow community, but the Green band is the broadest.

This probably is the case with most big city congregations. Rural congregations like ours here in Lumby seem to be predominantly Blue, but may operate at an Orange level in their business or daily lives. In other words, they really are Blue/Orange, and therefore at least somewhat receptive to Green, Yellow and Turquoise impulses.

You realize, of course, that "The emerging Church" has the potential to make most people feel inferior. According to Bruce Sanguin (or Ken Wilber), only 2 % of humanity are at the Tier 2 level, which makes 98% of humanity less than highly evolved! This may not sit well with them, and smacks of elitism by the upper 2% crust, only half or less of whom might actually be at the highest evolved, Turquoise level!

At the Turquoise level, however, one becomes at-one with the spiral. One becomes the entire spiral and identfies with the entire spiral. To inspire people to evolve up the spiral without making them feel inferior becomes the great challenge of the Turquoise level.

I wonder how Jesus and the other great sages of humanity did it? What is known about Jesus is mostly legend, and has been altered by a power-mongering, politicised Church. We don't really know how he went about it in a practical way.

I imagine that the insight(s) of the Turquoise level is Jesus' "kingdom of God, kingdom within," or "kingdom of heaven." I assume that the insights of this "kingdom," --or "kin-dom" as Bruce prefers to call it-- are the insights of the Turquoise level, the insight of the Holy One: the insight that all is One, and all are One. The supreme Unitive insight that all is and all are united within the Holy One.

This much seems obvious. But little or nothing is said in the scriptures on how Jesus went about spreading the insight of the Holy One, and 2,000 years of doctrinal and dogmatic Christianity have suppressed rather than spread the insight. Only now is the Christ insight of the Holy One beginning to be explored and exposed by mainstream Christianity.

I think that we, who dare to spread the insight of the Holy One, need to go about it with Unitive Love and due humility and sensitivity. This is a learning experience for us as much as it is for those whom we dare to inspire.

In Unitive Love,

Arminius

...been following your conversation with interest, as I'm sure others have as well. I find it interesting to be talking about these things from a "Green" perspective. In many ways I consider myself Green (although my theory of change is not). It's as if I can stand on a Green hillside and peek over at the other colours and see them but not actually get there. So I know in my head that it's obviously true that some people are more wise, mature and integrated than others. But from where I sit on my Green hillside spot, it sounds...as you say..."elitist".

I say some similar stuff in my own book when I talk about people falling along a Scale of wisdom and integration. The only way to bring the theory home is by way of example. A few years back the Dalai Lama was in Vancouver and he met with some other international visionary thinkers including fellow Nobel Laureates Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Dr. Shirin Ebadi as well as former president of the Czech Republic Vaclav Havel, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi and Dr. Jo-ann Archibald of Canada’s First Nations community in a Roundtable Dialogue.

They replayed it on TV a week later. If you tuned in for  just a few minutes you were blown away. Now click the channel and check out Jerry Springer. ... obviously less wise and integrated folks. Don't get me wrong - not better people in greatest sense of the word - not more loved by God, nor valued. But it's still better to be more like the Chan Centre group than the Springer group....that's what we all strive for.

Even writing this I'm in fear and trembling of angry Greenies with torches and pitch forks...

....or should I say sharp PENS....

Anyway  - there are ways to BE that are better...that's what I'm saying. This is what ALL PEOPLE should be striving for.

Could it be that Turquoise exists only as an ideal?  Or only as a "mountain top" experience?  In Maslow's hierarchy of needs (an oldie-goldie, but still a useful theory), no one can spend their whole existence "self-actualizing". 

I am inclined to agree that Wondercafe's center of gravity is Green.

Yes, LoveJoy, I concur. The best way to bring the Integrated Theory home is by example. But we also have to write about it, talk about it, and think about it. And when we do, our Green egalitarian consciousness rebels against the perceived elitism.

Being Unitive by example is great, and avoids the perceived elitism, but the Unitive example has been around for millenia, with little effect. I think we have to conceptualize the Unitive state and stage, not just live it.

Those who just live it and exemplify it in their daily actions choose the easy way out. They are being revered as sages, while those who conceptualize that same wisdom risk being villified. Throughout human history they were ridiculed, isolated, persecuted and in some cases even exceuted. For all we know, Jesus may have been executed for conceptualizing the "kingdom of God."

The big failure of the Gospels is that Jesus' primary message was never conceptualized.

LoveJoy wrote:  

{ In many ways I consider myself Green (although my theory of change is not). It's as if I can stand on a Green hillside and peek over at the other colours and see them but not actually get there. }

Hmmm... Maybe more of a Green/ Yellow? 

I was about to claim Green/ Yellow as my own value system, but I got confused when I read ahead to Chapter 6.  What color is my Christ?  I am not sure.  I am not exactly clear what is meant by a "Cosmic Christ", which is the Christ of the Yellow level.

Bruce writes, (Page 97), "The scope of this Christ's concerns and sovereignty is the entire universe.  Yet this sovereignty is exercised in a non-coercive, loving manner, so that each creature and every system is free to evolve." 

This sounds a lot like the God of Process Theology.   I am afraid I am not grasping this very well. 

By the way, I have one of Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi's books ... Jewish With Feeling:  A Guide to Meaningful Jewish Practice.  It is quite wonderful.

paradox3: Yes, Turquoise is an ideal, even for those of us who fancy ourselves as having been there, or being there.

I am one of those Turquoise fanciers, but I must confess that I frequently slip into Yellow, Green, and Orange. Even into Blue and Red at times, and in an emergency into Beige.

I would go as far as saying that the Turquoise level truly exists only in the Unitive experience, awareness, and conciousness. As soon as we think about it, talk about it, intellectualize and conceptualize it, we already are back at the Yellow level. And some of our concepts and arguments take us back further, into Green and Orange.

I'd say I spent my childhood and youth in Blue, my early adulthood in Orange, my latter adulthood in Green, shifting to Yellow and Turquoise in my ripe middle years, and fancying myself being there, but still harkening back to Green and Orange.

To be totally Turquoise would be, as LoveJoy said, just a shining example. As soon as we conceptualize that shine, the shine turns Yellow. But a Yellow shine is still pretty good, eh, paradox3, even if it is a little Greenish or Orangy or even Blueish at times?

Wow, what is this with the number 8?

We have the Law of Octaves (viz Pythagoras).

We have the I Ching, which has 8 trigrams.

The great astronomer Kepler tried to make planetary motion fit the Law of Octaves.

We have the chess board, which is 8 x 8.

We have Dr. Timothy Leary's 8-circuit model.

We have John Newland fitting in all the chemical elements into 8 families.

We have Nikola Tesla intuiting a kind of Law of Octaves for his discoveries.

We have communication between our DNA and RNA happening in 8x8 codons.

We have R Buckminster Fuller saying that all phenomena reduce to things that include the octet truss (8-sided) and the coupler (8-faceted with 24 phases).

We have Gurdjieff having eight different levels of consciousness (which may be connected with Sufism).

What is going on here?

(the book sounds inneresting, in it seems to offer more choice than 'is God real/not real')

Wondering what a histograph using these colour schemes of all WCers would look like,

Inannawhimsey

Arminius wrote:

I am one of those Turquoise fanciers, but I must confess that I frequently slip into Yellow, Green, and Orange. Even into Blue and Red at times, and in an emergency into Beige. 

This is to be expected, Arminius, as the levels transcend but also contain the previous levels.  Ideally, we would draw on the "dignities" of the earlier levels rather than their "disasters". 

I appreciate your description of the relationship between Yellow and Turquoise.   This is turning out to be a great thread, Arminius.

InannaWhimsey,

Why didn't I think of that?   You are right, the Spiral Dynamics model has 8 levels. 

The number 8 is also important in Chinese culture.

Long live the Enneagram

I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the book.  Once I picked it up, I simply devoured it.  Went back and got his previous book.  Half way through that in a couple of days.

Our church is in the midst of a revitilization.  I couldn't figure out why many of the members were so against what we were doing.  It all made so much sense, to us.

Then I read Chapter 5.  To say I was devastated would be an understatement.

Here are all us Greens on the committee, trying to lead a bunch of Oranges, and in some cases very Blues, into the future.

We couldn't understand why they were reluctant to go into the 21 century.  They couldn't figure out why we wanted an art space, labarynth, garden, etc.

Then came Chapter 5.  What a bummer.

The answer, the subversive material later on.  I am sure Arminius will get to that.  Small steps, and before they know it, you got them. 

Nice site!

IT

Russ

Ah, the number 8, the number of the Resurrection. "On the first day of the new week the women went to the tomb...". Ever notice that most baptismal fonts have 8 sides? We are baptized into Christ's resurrection!  In my last church the pulpit was an octagon as well.

For those in Ottawa this weekend, Sanguin is speaking Saturday at CityView United for a workshop, and he is preaching at Glebe-St. James United on Sunday morning.

Inanna: you forgot Arminius, who conceived of a self-evolving bubble universe containig 64 bubbles within 64 half the size within 64 half the size, and so on, ad infinitum. And Arminius perceived this bubble evolution going both three-dimensionally inward and three-dimensionally outward simultanenously, in the same space. There is also the I-Ching, in which every future event has 64 possibilities of coming true. (This is also mentioned in Mayan mythology) Also, the Octagon is the sacred geometric configuration of Sufism. And, as LoveJoy pointed out, the Eneagram has eight basic human types. Last but not least, a musical octave has eight notes. And there are eight colours in the rainbow, if one includes the white light which contains the other seven. I could go on.

Arminius' vision of cosmic evolution also has eight stages, but the eighth stage is the same as the first--pure energy--with one important difference: the eighth stage contains the accumulated memory of the entire, ocatgaonal circuit, which consists of seven stages of cosmic evolution together with the cosmic evolver in one octagonal loop.

Have you read Hermann Hesse's "Glassbeadgame"? Its underlying premise is that everything in the universe--music, art, science, mathematics--functions by the same basic law of harmony, and can be brought down to a basic formula, not unlike Ken Wilber's "Integrated Theory of Everything", from which Bruce Sanguin took the "Spiral Dynamics".

Oh, I almost forgot the Eightfold Path of Buddhism.

In Eightfold Harmony,

Arminius

paradox3: The Turquoise level embodies spiritual enlightenment: the Western equivalent of the Eastern Nirvana. In Zen Buddhism, Nirvana is attained without any teachings or conceptualization. One just meditates until one gets IT. From then on one acts intuitively, directly from the experience of being IT, without intervention from one's faculty of logic, which means without conceptualization.

This is pure Turquoise! However, in our Western culture--and I believe in all human cultures--we can't or won't do without conceptualization, so we conceptualize the Turquoise level.

This conceptualization, however, is no longer the Turquoise level but the Yellow one. The total perfection of experiential enlightenment has given way to the less than perfect conceptual enlightenment.

Why should the experience of enlightenment not be on the same level as the conceptualization thereof?

Synthesis is antithetical to analysis. The logical explanation of a system that is in a state of synthesis is not untrue, but it does not and cannot possibly represent the actual state of the system, which is synthesis. The system, as it really is, is a mystery that can only be experienced. Its analysis does not and cannot constitute the actual is-ness or such-ness of the system.

There are two diametrically oppposed truths in the universe, analysis and synthesis, as well as the creative power that unites and separates the two (The well known Triple Paradox :-) Synthesis is the primary truth, analysis is secondary. The Turquoise level is the level of primary truth, the Yellow level secondary.

I know this deviates a bit from Bruce's teachings, but this is how I conceptualize divine conceptualization, as well as the difference between Turquoise and Yellow.

I am curious (Yellow)

Arminius

Hi Russ: In chapter 6, "What Colour is your Christ", we'll drink more of the forbidden wine and continue the subversive stuff.

Hi RevJames: Thanks for joining our discussion group!

If my memory serves me right, you expressed interest in joining our book discussion when paradox3 first mentioned it sometime last summer. We look forward to more of your contributions.

Hi RussP, 

Glad to have another reader of Emerging Church with us!

You wrote,

"Then came Chapter 5.  What a bummer."

Could you say more about why this chapter feels like a "bummer" to you? 

Arminius

Terrific thread! I just want to tell you I always faithfully read your material.

Great insights and I have been tuning in to Bruce's videos. I can't participate

because due to present circumstances I've been   finding  myself  in beige

quite often. However I can still read and I enjoy doing so immensely.

Looking forward and its too bad there isn't more participation on your threads.

 Remember we do have lots of lurkers  although they are no longer recorded in numbers.

You're a wonderful contributor to the WC.

Keep it coming!  We're listening up....!!!!

Arminius

Oh...I warned you I'm slow these days! I see beige refers to financial distress.

But, never mind me....carry on with the topic.

(My husband is quite ill undergoing radiation treatments etc. and this is what I had in mind more so than finances.)

Hello Stardust, and sorry to hear that your husband is so ill. 

Beige does not necessarily refer to financial distress; it can refer to any issues of basic survival.  At least, that is my reading of it. 

Thinking of you and your husband ... P3

Hi stardust: Thanks for joining us!

In times of stress we all tend to resort to Beige, which is our primal survival instinct. Most New Agers and many progressive or liberal Christians are implicated in Green. The Green level, with its physicality and emotionality--condescendingly known as "touchy-feely"--connects Green with Beige, the primal beginnings of spirituality.

I regard reaching all the way back to Beige as similar to going all the way ahead to Turquoise. Beige, as Turquoise, is purely experiential, without conceptualization. At the Beige stage we experience our divinty without being aware of it. At the Turquoise stage we experience our divinity in the full awareness of our dvinity. And the in-between stages are the neccessary steps that lead us to full awareness. 

One has to go through all eight stages from, Beige to Turquoise, but Turquoise closes the octagonal loop and connects back with Beige. This is not what Bruce wrote, these are my own thoughts.

Sorry to hear about your husband. When the reality of death hits home, that's when Tier 2 consciousness comes in handy. Tier 2 transcends the individual and unites us with the eternal cosmic totality, a.k.a. God.

In Unitive Love,

Arminius

Arminius,

You wrote,

"One has to go through all eight stages from, Beige to Turquoise, but Turquoise closes the octagonal loop and connects back with Beige. This is not what Bruce wrote, these are my own thoughts."

This might be a way of explaining why giving birth is both primal and transcendent .  Thanks for the thought...P3

P and A

I'm just acknowledging your posts. Thanks.