Don't it always seem to be,

That we don't know what we got till its gone;

Pave paradise, put up a parking lot.

-Joni Mitchell

So what is closing - the building or the community?  I have no problem with a building shutting down but when community ceases to be, we've truly lost something.  When I cannot show love and concern to another, I am sad.  I couldn't care less if I didn't have "a place" to go to but if I couldn't connect to others, that would be a different thing altogether...cms

In my little wonderlogue, I meant cease to exist, gone, good-bye, Go In Peace.

Hi cms: Looks like West Hill is not closing anytime soon!

I just accessed the West Hill website, read some of Gretta's articles, and registered myself as a recipient of your Saltshaker. Great website—great congregation! Perhaps West Hill is the shape of things to come?

I have been in many congregations which have faced a financial crisis. The treasurer sounds the alarm bells that unless people immediately give a lot of money the church will close. For some strange reason, when they try to do this a second time, people do not respond. You can only cry 'wolf' so many times.

I used to think the UCC and its congregations would die in an apocalyptic collapse. After watching the church 'die' for the last 20 years, I have come to realize death comes one step at a time, one small refusal to evolve at a time.

Well, you could have one heck of a nationwide yard sale!  Choir gowns going cheap..... 

I am glad that you found some material to be useful!  Note that West Hill and the community is a way (or a tool) that is utilized to experience community.  Others will find community in other forms.  I doubt that it will be type of community that all would relish (although the vegan cooking classes could be a huge draw!) but it certainly will be for some.

I hope that you are encouraged by what you read...cms

First, I think such an ad would mean that Harper had given up on trying to bully Iggy. (sorry, couldn't resist)

I'm not sure apathy is the issue my friend. My experience suggests that the problem is intransigence on the other part of the people - those who are already involved. And who have so much invested in the status quo that they torpedo any and every new leader who surfaces.

I've been in a few churches over the years and felt the frustration and anguish of those who sought renewal and rebirth. They struggle against the chains for a while and then they simply shrug and move on. This site, or rather the Emerging Spirit campaign which is, of course, more than the cafe, is a case in point. Why is there even a question about its continuance? But there is.

West Hill? The most high profile example of what I mean. As part of the overall church, it represents a tiny fraction of the membership of the UCCan. But it is beset, not by heartfelt good wishes for its success, but by attacks from both pulpit and pew.

If your bus sign were to succeed, it would need to convince, not the uninvolved to become involved, but the entrenched to stop picking off the relief squad from the trenches.

I had an interesting chat one time with a woman with whom I sat on a committee. Her complaint? That "the young people just don't want to take on leadership roles. We old folks can't do it all." This same lady voted against any and all suggestions for new projects that did not exactly match the pattern she was used to in the life of "her" church.

And the beat goes on.

David

I would probably react by suggesting that the speaker is either a liar or an idiot.

(That wasn't directed at anyone just in this hypothetical world).  I am a United Church person and as long as there is one other person the United Church will live on.

Peace

Joel

I would suspect there would be a temporary outpouring of support, assuming the bus ad wasn't a lie, and the survival of the United Church was at stake.

Of course, in 10 years, a similar bus ad would have less effect, based on "The Boy Who Cried Wolf Effect".

I still don't understand why it's the United Church who are threatened.  Why couldn't it be the Mormons, for example?  I'd certainly appreciate less of them at my door.  Even I could be persuaded to pray for the end of Evangenlicalism.  There are a number of denominations which I would rather see as historical footnotes in my lifetime.  You guys are pretty cool.

Cjms, 

Thank you so much for saying this.  As Gretta goes around the country giving presentations and holding workshops about "progressivization" of congregations, I often wonder if she acknowledges this, too.  

As I am sure you are aware, a great many newcomers have been attracted to West Hill, but it has also seen many, many departures.  Interestingly, there is now a substantial number of former WHUC members at another "progressive and inclusive" United Church in the Scarborough area.

Thank you again for acknowledging that West Hill style community will not meet everyone's needs.  After all the conversation we have had about my former faith community, this means a great deal to me.

Peace!  ... P3

Perhaps the people who really care about the significant other would go underground ... like the catacombs of Rome ... or the wee hows of God in a hostile environment to caring and thought in a balanced pair ... fruit of the tree?

Did Jesus say something about taking such meditations into a dark closeted space? Describe to me the shadow of the mind without the light of caring! Such enigma of life. Then speaking of mind, soul, psyche or the language of such an infinite critter is considered taboo! It is outside the field of relevence in the physical realm ... myth? (that's beyond in classic tongues)

Would the paradigm be upset about who would apply baptism, marriage, death rites and sell admonitions for sins of the past? That is the real physical concern as the spirit and soul is simply metaphysical and doesn't exist to many. Ahmun said this was at least 85% of our health problem ... matters of the psyche? Isn't that an odd philosophy!

If your bus sign were to succeed, it would need to convince, not the uninvolved to become involved, but the entrenched to stop picking off the relief squad from the trenches. - GoldenRule

You have hit the nail on the head.

Hi crazyheart,

Depends on who is running them doesn't it?

I am quite confident it wouldn't be the United Church itself running those adds.  Any unit within the United Church who came up with a campaign like that would likely see itself dismantled.

And that is not because we are afraid of unpleasant truths.  It would be because these people are obviously not gifted for the task they were given.

While there are many valid critiques of the United Church available to any who get their thrills by finger-pointing there is also a truth that the United Church of Canada is adaptable.  Many of our more rigid brothers and sisters think of that adaptability as compromise.  A narrow view of creation is nowhere called for by Scripture.

One of the indicators of adaptability has been WonderCafe and the Emerging Spirit Campaign.  Are either perfect?  By no means.  As GUC points out elsewhere our doing something is better than others doing nothing.

We are going to make mistakes because we are human and making mistakes is where humanity excels.  We have the ability to learn from those mistakes.  Will we learn enough fast enough?  Time will tell.  Watching the clock is not the same as getting the job done.

New leaders do not just step up.  They are trained.  The United Church of Canada, like many other mainline denominations absolutely sucks when it comes to training the next generation of leaders.

In fact, many of our new initiatives encourage us to continue to suck at developing the next generation of leaders and we are instead turning to yesterday's generation of cast-off leaders.

Not that there is no wisdom to be found among that group.  It will multiply the generational divide.

There is a deep set apathy that is manifested in multiple ways.

One way is complete disengagement which creates empty pews.  One way is to never engage which allows pews to empty in the first place.  The apathy is equally present in those who attend and those who cannot be bothered.  Which is why nothing seems to change.

True.  Excitement isn't all it is cracked up to be.  Community is more important.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There came a point in the story of Jesus where he realized that even the most open sects of Judaism did not really want to renew the faith. They were as much part of the status quo as the Sanhedrin. It was then that the ministry expanded to include we goyem.

I wonder, in a thousand years, what the name of the major faith of planet Earth will be, for I am as certain that it will be none of those extant now as I am that it will exist.

On a side note, imagine what would have happened if the powers that be hadn't rejected the message of renewal. Christianity would be just a footnote in Judaism.

I wonder, in a thousand years, what the name of the major faith of planet Earth will be, for I am as certain that it will be none of those extant now as I am that it will exist. - GoldenRule

I don't know what the name of the faith will be but I hope Agape is at its roots. As the world widens , Loving God, self and neighbour will be come more and more  important.

This thread caught my eye as I am in the middle of church business that threatens our congregation. There seems to be a very real possibility that there will not be a United Church congregation in this community in the near future. I hope that possibility is wrong, and that we can survive and thrive. This is a wonderful congregation family. Never-the-less, there are certain outside forces, and some inside ones that threaten our existence. I have not seen any apathy. Perhaps burnout, not apathy. I have seen grief and worry. If you talk to anyone in our congregation these days, you may find them close to tears. Especially those on the board. 

Because of this, I have been thinking of what I would do if the worst happened, and our congregation had to dissolve. Would I drive to the next UCC which is in the town an hour away? Would I go to another church in this town? Would I become part of the UCC refugees who become part of the Presbyterian congregation? None of these options seems viable right now. 

All of this has made me reflect again on how we do church. The old ways of doing church, that is reading, preaching, singing etc, may not be so great anymore. I do not know details of churches like West Hill operate. I may learn more. At this point, I am inclined to want to meet on a more informal basis. I am also inclined to want to ask my Sikh aquaintances if they let blondes worship with them. 

Nothing would happen, Christians need to realize that the Kingdom of God is in the heart of its people, the people ARE the church, the church is a living breathing organism, a building or a domination is not the church.

Hi Northwind, 

West Hill operates much like any other suburban United Church congregation, from what I know of it.  They still have a Sunday morning service, structured in a fairly traditional manner with readings, singing, a sermon, and so on.  The content of the service is not the usual, as alternatives to the Bible and the hymnbook are frequently utilized.  These "non-theistic gatherings" are described by Gretta in the Toolbox (appendix) of her book.

A Sunday morning children's program is offered (Sunday club), which has been designed to reflect progressive thinking.  The last I heard, there was no youth group happening, but this might have changed by now.

There is a long standing book study group which looks at contemporary authors of religion and theology.  Then there is a range of social and outreach activities, pretty typical of a United Church congregation. 

The web presence of this congregation is quite impressive, and I would say that there is some innovation going on here.

Holly Hannah, Blackbelt!!!!  I agree with you!!!!  I'm pretty sure that's never happened before.  See; there's hope for us yet!  Have a great weekend...cms

For a moment there I thought I missed a memo

Call me an optimist, or tell me I have my head in the sand - but I don't see the UCC dying in the near future.  In fact I tend to think it may be reaching its low point now.   Church is no longer 'the place to be', its no longer necessary to be socially acceptable, it doesn't give a great impression on a resume for a job, your neighbours are not likely to be a bit suspicious of you if you don't attend.  Being a faithful church member doesn't help you when you apply for a loan or want to adopt a child.  So people are a part of the UCC because they want to be - because they are committed.  And from this committed core - I think we will begin to build again.  Not the church we knew in the past - but a new and vibrant body, committed to being the church for one another and for the world. 

The bus ad might read 'the UCC you knew as a child is dying - if not dead'  but a new church is rising from its ashes.

Amen! I keep hoping.

Old adage:

There is always a spark in recent aches, or is it ashes that create the pain for evolution. If you happen to be in an unpained, privileged position ... would you have any stimuli for change?

ID is a statement about power ... Judah in ancient tongues ... not personification but an intangible! Spooky thoughts in the heh brow isles ... isolated m'n!

It's only on the brink that people find the will to change. Only at the precipice do we evolve. - Professor Barnhardt, The Day the Earth Stood Still (2008)

Which only applies if there is a precipice, and if we see it.  It doesn't bode well for the gradual decline that is closer to reality.

You mean the frog in the kettle situation?  ANd yeah I agree.

So what do we do in the face of the water gradually approaching boiling?  Add heat or fan our selves and complain?  Or Maybe get out of the (off the) pot?

Actually, it won't happen until this generation of  'geezers' dies off, and the church runs out of the money they willed to the church!

Does that mean Conference employees and head office personnel will have to get out and find honest work?  There's always telemarketing!

Southpaw - that is rather negative don't you think.  Honest work?  What are the conference and head office doing now - dishonest work?

southpaw, a touch jaded - no?

As I said in another string; there's always the symbols of Genesis 49:17 ... a pain in the butte to get the sleepers moving! Some have absolutely no sense of feeling ... like a stone in the giants head! It leads to the end especially with no ideals that extend beyond thy's elf!

I would like to ask revjohn and others what is meant by "leaders". Our presbytery just discussed the 'Called to be Church" document. I was with a group that discussed the 2nd question. What kind of leadership do we need in the United Church of Canada? How do we find and support the leaders we need?

There were three paid accountable ministers and four lay at the table. One clergy said he didn't know what was meant by leader, another clergy said it meant all people lay and paid accountable and the other minister said it meant only trained paid accountable people.

The minister that thought  the word "leadership" meant only paid accountable ministry would agree with revjohn in the fact that the UC amoung others suck when it comes to some points of the training process. 

If this is too far removed from the original topic, I apologize, perhaps someone could let me know. 

You are not off base!

Would a light-handed leader not sometimes be better than some heavy handed paid authorities that are more afraid of what they lose instead of what they might give up for a greater good? It is not a popular thought in a generation that was raised with ante social hatred and leave wondering what happened to spirit of community. Come on folks, you've been given larger gifts than that!

Leadership in Congregations, edited by Richard Bass might suit you in this question. Don't take the institutional mode too seriously ... they often do not know how, when, where and why to move and who and what for that matter. If they did the light would come on at the core ... Bath Sheba! Ides a wash of old doctrine ... baptism of fire? We'll soon see the way things are going!

THE United Church as a whole will not close in five years but several of the Church congregations will run out of money and will have to close  in five years or less unless something major happens. 

I do not know what that major thing would be.

Southpaw

"Actually, it won't happen until this generation of  'geezers' dies off, and the church runs out of the money they willed to the church!"

Truer words have never been spoken.  We have a quite vibrant church, quite a few young people, but, the old geezers are bound and determined to hang onto power as long as they can.  The previous chair of whatever committee is on vacation and surprise, surprise, the new chair can't make a single decision because it has to be approved by the geezer.

So which dies first, the geezer or the church. And don't think the geezer hasn't populated the church with geezer offspring, with the same narrow view.

IT

Russ

Hi Southpaw and Russ:

Whom do you call "geezers?"

I'm 69 years old, and the most revolutionary member of our congregation, and maybe even here on the café. I know many people half my age and less who are far more conservative than I. They must be "geezer offspring," eh?  

Geezerettes?   Geezettes?

Would never ever call you a geezer, my friend. There are many aged and open to change, and those who are aged and fossilized.

IT

Russ

Hi herewego,

A leader is one who leads.

Not everyone in a leadership capacity is, in fact, a leader.  Some simply like the feeling of power or control.  Others are guilted into taking up the reigns and are so busy riding the break in an effort to keep the wagon from getting out of control that they actually get no where.

We do not groom leaders.  We hope that they just fall out of the sky and into our lap and this is true at almost every level of our Church.

Grace and peace to you.

John

 revjohn: So do you think theology schools are failing student ministers in this regard or should student ministers be groomed elsewhere?

I take exception to Southpaws comment.  The conference staff are a very dedicated group of individuals who greatly contribute to our church.  It is they that helped me continue on my faith journey and find a place where I belonged in the church and a place where I could serve.

Peace

Joel

Hi herewego,

Theology schools teach students how to be theologians (in theory).  That is a vital part of our job, the ability to do theology.  Theology, unfortunately is a word which has fallen into infamy alongside words like evangelism, doctrine and dogma.  It has become a swear word and many treat it as such.

I don't know how all the seminaries stack up in that regard.

I do know that the primary emphasis at VST was context rather than content.  Our content exam was not all that different than our Greek exam.  Extremely basic.  I tend to think that content is a tad more important than that.

That is just one area where there is some lag.

The leaders are not just the clergy, they are the laity who also take leadership.

Elders.  Where the heck are they?  Are they visiting the members in their district monthly?

The official board.  How easy is it to fill vacancies?  Do we guilt people into serving or are they there because they have an aptitude and passion for the task at hand?

Presbyters (Lay).  How come they never seem to know what is expected of them?  What gifts and skills are they bringing to the wider church?  Why are they surprised when that question is asked of them.  How do they feel about the work that they are asked to do?

The predominant strategy for filling vacancies in The United Church is grab a warm body and hope it doesn't cool too soon.  When was the last time that when an election was held in a church court that there was actually a race?  It tends to be every three years when General Council comes up and most are going for the experience not because they feel they have gifts and skills to offer.

It isn't always like that obviously.

Often enough though it is.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Old geezers ... ancient wisdom hated since the time of Roman-type philosophy! The Romans did burn everything they could get their hands upon and replaced it with their knowledge about Machiavelian outlook ... sever the emotions from the intelligence and you have control of the social mind! Is there any evidence of crusty hangover of this attitude. Could we change? It seems germane!

Could we correct this? You would have to tred in some dark places and the general rule is ... don't go there! (Three monkeys?)

Light leaders fallen from heaven ... ain't that a pain to established authority? I sat in on theological seminars in the east for several years. Last year an "old geezer" laid a line (not an original line) on the theologians present: "Don't teach this crap to the congregations anymore!" The response in session was positive although outside the lecture hall I heard a lot of : "We can't do that!"

You see common sense is an underground issue ... subliminal understanding?

Are humans good at repeating old errors blindly? I viewed that in my career in a stage that cost many millions and many lives without a thought. Yet when raising deeper questions I was told I was too honest to be in business (I was packaged mostly for thinking). Does this say something about the social order of the soul of mankind? Bull rush ... top of the pile, cock of the rock?

Now in aboriginal thought did creation ask A' dum what was done out there and A' dum shifted blame instead of learning for the benefit of soul and spirit (mind and emotion are Epraim 'd), intellect and intelligence seem in denial of one another ... sadisic trend to self destruction? The option: make more babies for canon fodder and war industry ... it's profitable and deadens the think'n/Karen process towards wisdom ... d'athe in old Hebrew.

How do you succeed in mortal surroundings? Limit yourself ... reciprocal of the infinite vision ... if you have a mortal vision present ... drop it out of the heavens! It starts a whole star cycle flair of superstar, Black Hole and all saints even ... haggadai in old tongues ... similar to geezer in a' cronyism ... rough around the edges for all the wear!

Ain't that a who-T in the dark? Peal a laughter from a wee devil ... demo-crazy that sees most of what they hear as pure crap! Do authorities see this sick (black) humour. Bloody no! If they did would we have been led here? I'll propbably get shot for this ... it is what religion is for controlling distant thoughts ... infinite creation and Gods are eliminated from mortal worlds to their detriment!

Plain solipsism ... experience of the sole of the heart (Lem of God) it travels continuously with the job on hand dealing with busy Ness sense ... mostly dark you know needing a Light-Handed Leader ... as Pyre carrier inna Lam's kin sac with a lot of old ashes? soulds like the heel of a donkey as spooken of in the 49th chapter of Genesis an improper myth in the mortal realm?