Fallen's picture

Fallen

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Can the Church provide the Answers to these issues?

Does the church deny Animism?

There was at one time a universal religion before "civilization" as we know it began. Animism began at a time when people lived in small groups such as tribes, living as the north American Indian once did.

Animism was the belief that spirit was in all things. However, make no mistake, it is not the belief that animals, insects, trees were gods, but it believed that god was within them all. Respecting these elements and the sacredness of life was the primary elements in this belief system. In other words, take from the Garden of Eden but do not overindulge with greed and out of insecurity or fear.

Does the church acknowledge Lilith and Ancient Babylon?

Shortly after animism developed the belief in many gods and goddesses. The beginnings of patriarchy are often cited in this era. The timeline is often cited as 10,000 years however, no one really knows. There has not been enough archeological evidence.

Some researchers suggest that the priesthood demonized the priestesses to the point where oppression of women began to be overt, legal and socially acceptable. The story of Lilith is a most appreciative story to read about this initiative. It is a story of power mongering through the beliefs of the people.

Does the church accept the origins of Judaism?

Judaism apparently began in the beginning. One has to believe this to accept it. I am still on the fence. Nevertheless, much of the beliefs of god and Christianity depend upon it. However, I will show you later that this can be problematic.

Judaism is closely related to the Lilith story though the Jewish religious authorities flatly deny Lilith even though there is archeological and historical reference to her. Some argue that at this point that the priesthood reviled the priestesses and demonized them. Patriarchy began.

Is the church clear on the origins of Christianity?

Christianity is a relatively short-lived religion in comparison to Judaism and Hinduism but neither outlives Animism. Additionally, Christianity began with Jesus and his message. However, no one is clear on what his message is. Church tells us it is about salvation. However, upon closer examination the church's only source is the Bible. However, a close examination of that source reveals problems too that I need answers so that it can be a believable story.

The church as we know it today has its origins with Constantine the Roman Emperor. However, research today suggest that Constantine merely recognized the power of belief and utilized it to unify his Empire. Christians stood out to the Romans because they were being persecuted for their beliefs. They were willing to suffer and die for their beliefs. Romans were beginning to convert to Christianity in large numbers because they were impressed by this small groups belief systems and what it offered.

At the same time Constantine had expanded the Roman Empire as far as it would go until it verged on collapse. Constantine needed an army and a citizenship with a belief system that would strengthen and unify his Empire. Christianity offered that belief system. Constantine saw that no matter how much he killed, burned, tortured, mutilated Christians, they would never give up. That is what he needed in his Empire.

Constantine's turning point was in a decisive battle. He was outnumbered. However, he applied the Christian belief systems and tuned the tide of battle in his favor. He did this by suggesting to his army that he had a vision and it was the sign of the cross, a Christian symbol. Moreover, he told his soldiers that in this sign they would conquer. With a new belief system added with the power of a belief system, they did win that battle. Constantine's army turned into an army that was five times its strength overnight thanks to their new system of belief. Keep in mind the Romans the day earlier believed that their Emperor was God. Now their god is saying that there is another more powerful god! This is similar to a story that occurred in India approximately 300 years earlier and would have been known to Constantine. The story I refer to is seen in this website, http://nabataea.net/sindia.html for clarity and similarity between the two. My argument here is that religion appears to unite masses under one single thought process.

After these events, in 313 a.d. Constantine made Christianity legal and there was no more persecution. Later it became the official church of the state. Of course, Constantine declared himself the first pope of the church. Thus began the growth and the development of the church. Later we have the reformation and the like which splits the church and not of course without the role of Kings assisting in that too. You see, the kings and the popes did not share the power easily.

Later, a philosophy of economics and work ethics provided fruitful ground for capitalism. Today, one could see how the church has influenced our so-called progress to modernism and the acquisition of wealth. It is perpetuated by a belief "be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." Genesis 1:28. Today we know when the fish will run out. We know the damage we have done to the earth.

Finally, researchers have shown Christianity to be a collection of many pagan religions. Consider the following; http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm#sim, see also, http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ for additional information.

Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.

Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.

According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.

Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.

The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.

Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.

Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.

At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.

An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.

In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.

There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:
1. Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
2. Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
3. Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.

Nevertheless, the bible, as the inspired, god breathed, infallible word of god is in doubt.

The Bible?

The bible was a series of books written over two thousand years ago by people inspired by god. This I cannot deny the source of inspiration. However, I am not sure if the source of inspiration makes it the infallible word of god. Saying that the Bible is unquestionable has me wondering.

I could not leave the Bible unquestioned. My curiosity revealed something curious. I found that the first church fathers selectively selected texts and then canonized the selected texts. Later this process caused the Bible to be the one true authority of creation and the unquestionable truth.

Apparently, the church fathers met over five hundred years to canonize the Bible we know today. Does this not seem a little odd? To review texts, meet on it and then throw out portions that are not congruent with what has been selected? Where are the other texts? That is what I would like to know. Has the texts in the Bible been selected for the sole purpose of control? During the early part of the church, many were not allowed to read the Bible. However, thanks to Martin Luther's Thesis statements and challenges to debate the Bible with anyone from the Church, we are today reading the Bible and challenging the church on many things. However, the truth is still blurry. Some will argue that I need to have faith. However, blind faith is not what I need. I need to know the truth and the truth I believe will set me free.

Authoritarianism

Psychology today tells us about a phenomenon that occurs in many. It is authoritarianism. This is where people believe that authorities know best and they trust that authorities would not lie to us. This can be problematic because the phenomenon of authoritarianism cites Nazi regimes and the like for its full understanding of authoritarianism. In other words, the authorities tell us stuff and we are supposed to believe it because we are supposed to trust our authorities. If they say there is a master race and it is us then we are to believe it. If they say we have to exterminate the others to purify the world and purge it of sin then we authoritarians do it without question. Consider the Mai Lai incident for more research on this.

Paternalistic Tutelage

Paternalistic tutelage is another consideration that falls under authoritarianism. Paternalistic tutelage suggests that I do not know enough to make decisions for myself and so the church and the state will do that for me. I am a ward of the state. This is the most un-democratic pace to be because I am not self determining and I cannot choose for myself. In fact, my education is chosen for me. I am told exactly what I need to know. Much of history has this concept in mind when history is written. History is written by those in power and therefore history is biased and incomplete. This is an empirical truth. For example, we know today that Canada was built upon a racist belief system. However, we are not told that in the history books we grew up with. But, today, we know it.

The church has operated and continues to operate with authoritarianism and paternalist tutelage. For example, as a young Christian growing up in the church I was told that the Bible is the only truth and that is the only source that I should look. I was told that others historians and scientists were liars and their work spiritual pornography. Such demonization prevented me from learning other facts pertinent in my spiritual growth and development and that of my children. I was told that the only source to god, heaven and the like was from the church and so I had to attend that if I wanted to know anything. If I was caught exploring other texts then I was accused of falling away. You do not want to be in this category because your family and friends ostracize you. It is very lonely here.

Control of the masses

Ultimately, the church started with control of the masses back in the days of ancient Babylon. It progressed to Constantine's Empire and the Roman Catholic Church was founded. Moreover, the church split into various factions and continues to bifurcate into smaller factions that claim to know the truth. There are so many version of the truth out there and yet they all say one thing. Do not look to science and history because that is spiritual pornography. It demonizes alternative sources to the truth. The bible is cited by all churches to be the infallible, unquestionable source to god. In sum, the story tells me that there is a battle between good and evil but it is not a spiritual one it is a physical one over control of human resources. The one that has the best program for the mind is the one that wins the contest. I ask the church, am I correct?

Conclusions

Many Christians will have problems with this document because it suggests that there is another story out there. It reveals the blind faith that shakes the psychological constructions of reality in Christians. It threatens their faith. However, the ones that I am really concerned about are the ones that believe the Bible to be the only source of truth. They are the ones that are too deeply ensconced in fundamentalism, authoritarianism and paternalistic tutelage that they cannot or will not understand what I am asking here. My question is in the face of history and what it reveals and upon a close examination of the facts we know that these things occurred and continue to occur within the church; can you tell me that the Bible, Jesus and salvation are true when considering these other materials?

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mmmerf's picture

mmmerf

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Didn't read your whole post. But Constantine didn't declare himself the first pope; he didn't even convert until the end of his life. He did help convene the council of Nicea, and made Christianity legal throughout the Roman Empire. But that's it.

Stargazer's picture

Stargazer

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I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on these issues and it is encouraging to discover there are other souls "out there" who share such viewpoints. I have been struggling with church dogma for a long time and I have come to realize that the Bible has been worked over and reworked over the centuries. I believe the Truth can be found in there amongst the verbal clutter . I believe the Truth can also be found in other sacred writings and that this Truth is a Universal Truth. In as much as different cultures speak different languages, words are nonetheless words. So to I think Truth is Truth regardless of the cloak that envelopes it.

wayout's picture

wayout

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I personally think you are talking about two churches here, the first church is the church of systems and here I include all churches, be it Catholic or Protestant or whatever else is out there. The second church is the church of God, there are no rulers in this chuch except God himself. You must do something radical with your way of thinking here. Because like you I had many of the same questions you had. I grew up in a very fundamental right wing church. But within this church there where many problems with authority and everyone wanted to be better than the next person. I came to realize this is not Christianity for Jesus himself did not make himself higher than the next person, if you read the Bible it does come clear that if Jesus would have wanted to he could have become the next king of Isreal, but instead he took the humble path and came down to the simple persons level. This I believe is true Christianity, to help those people that are around us. To have a heart for them.

This systems of Churches makes me sick. They think that through certain acts we become free from sin be it baptism or passover. And if you look back in history how many millions of people where killed all in the name of the Church, thats sickening, and the what they just went and did the act of the passover and their sins where forgiven, I think not.

I know how you feel with your many questions, and sadly I do not have all the answers. Instead I have a lot of "I believe". But that is because faith is the most inportant thing to have when reading the Bible. Faith that God would not let a bunch of hippocritacal Bishops and Popes change the Bible so much that we would be unable to get to heaven.

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor. 13,13

Love is the greatest possible thing a Christian must have, and I beleive the belief system of a church will not set a person free but instead the belief that Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

For the system of churches did copy many rituals from the pagan belief system. And what you said is true, but it is only true about the system and you must look away from the system, read the Bible without thinking what others have told you and come to your own conclusions, for God will open your mind if you honestly want to know the truth about him.

PrazGod's picture

PrazGod

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If you do not know God personally, talk/pray to Him from your heart and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Confess your sins to Him and ask Him to help you know Him, love Him, love others as you love yourself. He loves you dearly and wants you to have eternal life.

gabriel's picture

gabriel

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Thank you for that gloriously insightful, er, insight, PrazGod. No one doubts your faith - try debating the topic at hand!

sylviac's picture

sylviac

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At one time priests were allowed to marry, but because they left their wealth to their families,the church made priests take a vow of celibacy, so that their possessions and wealth would return to the Roman Catholic church.

Vespagirl's picture

Vespagirl

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I agree Falln, with a lot that you say here. Especially on the bible. It is a book full of wondrous stories and myths. If you read it literally and believe literally you are missing so much. Look deeper and see what the writers were trying to say about how we should love one another. Two of the most important saying in the bible " Love God with all your heart and mind" and " Love thy neighbour as Thyself" say it all. If people just followed these two rules there would be no war and the world would be a much happier and safer place.

sylviac's picture

sylviac

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fallen I believe that the Bible which is the Word of God is true. And that Jesus Our Lord and Saviour came to redeem mankind of their sins. However, The Roman Catholic Church,has deviated from the truth and added a lot of paganism. like the virgin Mary where they used to worship Diana the goddess, or the egyptians the goddess Isis. Also they use purgatory which is not even mentioned in the Bible, the worship of saints, where in actuality saints in the Bible are the believers. We are supposed to worship the true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

sylviac's picture

sylviac

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Fallen Judaism does have a place in our religion. As the Hebrews once sacrificed a lamb without blemish, Christ Jesus our Lord became the sacrifice to redeem mankind of their sins. He shed His blood, so that we could receive forgiveness of our sins.

oui's picture

oui

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Fallen, thanks for your insightful post. You have obviously spent quite a lot of time researching, and I hope you will continue with that. The more I look at the history of the texts and the circumstances, the more entangled it gets.

One thing that has been revealed to me time and again is the ancient Egyptian origin of most of Judaism and Christianity (long before Mithra). Actually most religions have some connection to Egyptian concepts. The Egyptian "Book of the Dead" lists most of the ten commandments hundreds of years, before Exodus. They were in reality, nothing new, Moses would have been more than familiar with them.

The Christian concept of bread and wine is also written in the "Book of Living and Dying", again long, long before Christ. The female deity Maat was the personification of universal order and the embodiment of the concept of truth. She was the means by which all should live, "Maat is breath for your nose, your bread is Maat and your beer is Maat."

Perhaps other religions simply ripped off the Egyptian, or maybe it was so pervasive (over 3000+ years of spiritual thinking, religious tolerance and curiosity in a relatively successful and stable empire) that it forever permeates religion. Or maybe parts of it were taken, twisted and corrupted by those who did and do not fully understand it. What seems a mystery could be ancient symbolism totally misunderstood and misapplied.

Anyway, if you want to explore a relatively pure root, free of centuries of corruption, look to ancient Egypt.

The churches may not be able to answer your questions, you may well be on the road to discovering the answers for yourself.

waterfall's picture

waterfall

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Hi,
I've read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy which points out many of your statements. I also read the Bible. The Bible for me provides answers to my everyday life and the other, though interesting, left me with interesting facts, but no blueprint for living. The Bible for me is instructional and timeless and the latter provided a good read that challenges your faith but will likely gather dust in many libraries eventually and I doubt that it will last 2000 years on the best sellers list.

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