Reflection Questions:

1.  Where did you grow up?  What was the world like then?  How have things changed since your childhood?

2.  How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

3.  Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?"  Why or why not?

 I grew up on the prairies and went to a Presbyterian church.  My neighborhood was full of RC and UCC kids and we hung out together.  My church, I thought, was more liberal than the UCC.   The UCC kids I knew seemed to be too pious. 

 It was a white highschool, in the sense there were very few non whites there - and yet our high school president was Japanese -  Two working class neighborhoods came to a middle and upper class highschool, thus university became a direction.  The group I hung with were jocks and we spent time talking religion because it was a mixed RC and non RC group.

The city has now more native canadians and my old neighborhood reflects that.  Some of the churches in the city struggle and they were the same churches that were small when I grew up or were located in changing neighborhoods. How active the church is there I do not know, but I know that in Vancouver, where I went to University, the churches struggle and some are very active.

One of the things I remember is both in my childhood street and my Vancouver street I don't remember a lot of people going to church, yet the churches were relatively full.   My Vancouver church now struggles and I have no idea about the health of my childhood church, but being Presbyterian it had people from the whole city - the benefit of Union -

I was lucky in I went to a Jesuit college for a year and it was pre vatican and those who helped it to come into being taught there- you could hear rumors of its coming.  I belonged to the SCM and it was raising questions about the faith and social action.  This was a natural outcome of my teenage experience with a minister who pushed the orthodoxy of the time - he did not  move into the next shift in theology but prepared me for that shift.... My family always asked questions and there were questions I had for my sunday school teacher which he thought should not be asked and my mother, who was very active in the church, and the minister said they were good questions.

In university we did some drugs and read a lot of poetry and listened to Jazz ( before it was common)  We were influenced by the beats and existentialists.  All of this gave me the grounding in seeking.   I took time out to work in the north which led to research in anthropology and sociology.  Had teachers who asked spiritual questions and looked at religion as important but as a sociological function.  Was part of a group influenced by a chaplain who opened my eyes to a more process point of view ( before I know what it was) and we read Honest to God.

Yes I relate to that because my existential issue was about the reality of God and Chicago and the civil rights movement of the time encouraged the seeking.  What grounded me, after God had died, was reading Whitehead and Hartshorne with my theological thesis adviser - made it possible to be ordained, for half way through, I wondered if the church was the place to be, and having now a process view I knew I could find a home in the church... I have continued to be a spiritual nomad by studying with John Cobb and continuing to ask questions about the reality of God.

1. Where did you grow up? What was the world like then? How have things changed since your childhood?

I grew up in the Maritime provinces primarily in the city of Halifax, my first six years in a small mining town in New Brunswick.  My childhood was in the seventies and the church was very much “family” oriented.  My childhood memories of church are very positive - almost idyllic up until the 80's when things started to fall apart.  The period of the 1980's was a very painful time of division and bitter fighting and things, in my opinion, have not been the same since in terms of church being that idyllic “family” experience.  I’m finding this book helpful in exploring how postmodernism has impacted church.

2. How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

In some ways I still would like to get back to that Eden of “the family church” - I would like for us to laugh together again, to be close knit and to be able to establish those ties that bind.  I am hopeful as I begin this book, that there are ways of doing this in the postmodern church.

3. Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?" Why or why not?

I do because I find it more and more difficult to establish those close ties anymore and I think that relationships are crucial to our spiritual experience.  I have had some really great experiences in the church since my childhood but they are more to do with learning and education rather than relationship building.  I don’t find that my theological approach is at odds with the congregations of which I’ve been apart all that much really however.

First off, thanks Meredith for this thread. The book is really helping me focus on the changes I am going through right now.

Reflection Questions: 1.  Where did you grow up?  What was the world like then?  How have things changed since your childhood?

I grew up during the late 50's and 60's in a small  southwestern Ontario town predominantly Scottish, Presbyterian, and white. My mother's family was Presbyterian Scots/Geordie, my Dad's family Gospel Hall/Methodist Scots/French. After marriage Dad became elder in the Presbyterian church. Had Catholic friends of the family but my working class street was Protestant as far as I could tell. There was one very old Armenian couple two doors down, everyone else from the UK, a few from Eastern Europe. School all white until grade 5 when I met a girl from India, the only person of colour in my childhood until highschool.  My parents were the first in my neighbourhood to get a divorce which was pretty traumatic at the time. After that we moved  away from the normalcy of church and school friends and neighbours who had known us since birth to a house in the country and started going to the UCC. When I go back to the old neighbourhood it seems essentially the same working class area but more ethnically diverse.

2.  How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

When we were children our father was interested in studying world religions and was a member of the Theosophical Society. He left the Presbyterian church and after his divorce from my mother he never went back to church except for weddings and funerals. He encouraged us to read sacred books from other faiths and I read the Bhagavad Gita and Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha before grade six. He also gave us a book of Greek myths with a picture of Perseus holding up the bloody head of Medusa which terrified and intrigued me. He had aunts and uncles who were trance mediums who were associated with the group around PM William Lyon Mackenzie King. At the same time we continued to go to Sunday School and church with my Mom who was a Sunday school teacher in both the Presbyterian and UCC. Sort of set up a  weird and confusing dynamic of juggling these various influences that has followed me all my life. Went to universty to study history and Judiac-Christian religion, but ended up a Buddhist nun and meditation instructor wandering around Nepal and India.

3.  Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?"  Why or why not? 

Yes! Seems this has been my life since the very beginning. I love old Methodist and Gospel Hall hymns and am still pretty good at "sword drills" (looking up bible verses, a permitted Sunday game at my Baptist grandparents house), yet can read/chant Tibetan and sing Korean Zen texts. Have never felt settled in anyone place even though I have always yearned for it somewhat foolishly knowing it will forever be impossible for me. Consider myself a pilgrim. Still spend weeks at a time doing meditation and visualization retreats in my tiny cabin in the Muskoka bush, but now also reading/learning about Centering Prayer and studying late medieval mystics whom I was introduced to years ago during my post graduate studies. I hate and love this about my spiritual life.... but "spiritual nomad" describes me pretty well. That is why it is so important for me to continually orient myself toward finding my own spiritual centre, a still quiet place, wherever I am.

1.  Where did you grow up?  What was the world like then?  How have things changed since your childhood?

My childhood was spent in an area of a big city where the houses were all much the same.  Most houses contained a family unit or an empty nest.  My neighbours went to church or not (mostly not), they came in different colors.  Some were Jewish or other religions.  I don't remember much conversation about religion except at home.  There were families who had money and comfortable homes, others strugled on various fronts.

My schools were also of mixed religions and color.  There were kids who went to different Christian churches too (Anglican, Baptist etc).

I haven't been back for many years so don't know how or whether things have changed.

2.  How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

 As a child I went to church but left when I started thinking and couldn't get good answers there.  Church seemed set up for the older people and they clung to the passed. Young people were viewed as a nuisance and expected to be quiet and obedient.  Change was something to fight against.  The young people drifted away.

3.  Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?"  Why or why not?

I'd say I'm a pilgrim.  Still looking for a community of seekers to talk to.  I read a lot of religious/spiritual books.  I know lots of church attending people and find many of them stuck in the mind pattern of 'it is the preachers job to tell me what to think'.

It seemed to me that either DBB was remembering wrong or spent her childhood wearing blinkers.  Her 'perfect little village' probably didn't exist.  There have always been non-church families, there have always been dishonest people, there have always been neglected children and beaten wives. 

Her description of the vanishing congregation seemed to match my observations though.

I will try again tomorrow .I just lost my whole post.

Look forward to your post CH and it's been interesting reading the different answers posted - thanks to all for your contribution!  I too have been having problems posting in addition to avatar woes.  Most be the WC gremlin or something.

1.  Where did you grow up?  What was the world like then?  How have things changed since your childhood?

I grew up a few blocks away from the historic village of Weston in Toronto's west end.  We lived in the suburbs which grew up around Weston in the 50's.  I attended high school and church within Weston itself, where there are two United Churches within blocks of each other.  The community still exists, and has recently been in the news with its opposition to the planned rail link between Union Station and Pearson Airport. 

Weston had an active main street, and we always called shopping there "going into Weston".  On page 18, DBB could have been writing about contemporary Weston!  She states, "The bakery, the movie theatre, the drug store soda fountain, the Kresge's department store - all gone."

My neighborhood was predominantly white and "working class".  Not everyone attended church, but I can remember six families on our short street who went to the same United Church.  Most of the moms stayed at home.

I didn't meet many Catholics until high school, because the Catholic children all went to the separate school.  There was no public funding for Catholic high schools in those days, so there were many transfers into the public system in grade 9.  I didn't know any Jewish people until university.

2.  How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

Profoundly.  In some respects my faith has shifted from my childhood understanding of it, in other ways it has deepened rather than shifted.

3.  Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?"  Why or why not?

Yes, I guess so.  I stopped attending church when I was a teenager, and returned to it when I was in my thirties.  I have been a member of three different United Churches in Scarborough Presbytery. 

I grew up in many places.  The only consistent place in my growing up would be my parent's cottage, which they bought when I was 7, I think.  But that's not really rooting in the same way as we are talking about here, since we were there mostly only in the summer.  All the normal times of life were wherever we were living at the time.  The important places:

Parry Sound - It is, and was, a small town with a thriving tourist based economy, and a fairly mixed identity.  One of the most well functioning reserves in Ontario is right next door, so there has always been a healthy, but also somewhat estranged, relationship between the mostly white population and the nearby reserve.  The mostly white population is itself fairly mixed, as Parry Sound was a major industrial shipping hub during WW1, which brought in lots of immigrants.  Parry Sound has become more prosperous, but is not hugely changed.

Richmond Hill - we arrived as this sleepy bedroom community north of Toronto was being completely remade.  In the space of ten years or so, the population more than doubled, and almost all of those new immigrants were from Hong Kong.  What had been a community more or less evenly split between assorted WASPS and Catholics on the one side, and Jews on the other, shifted enormously.  That community didn't really know what it's identity was while we were there.  It has continued to change.

I am never inclined to be satsified with where I am, just because it is comfortable.  Is that a product of my nomadic upbringing?  Probably, in part, but I suspect it has more to do with other things in my upbringing.  My spiritual longings (not a phrase I would normally use) are really centred around the ideas of the struggle to make this world as good as it can be, as loving as it can be, as holy as it can be.  That has some strong rootings in childhood experiences, but not ones that are really related to the places I grew up as DBB talks about, I think.

I am one, and always have been one.  I have travelled from place to place, making a home where I am, but knowing that I will not always be there.  I have felt the scorn and exclusion of the permanent residents often, for that, too, is part of being a nomad in a world of settlers.  Like all nomads, I hold a dream of one day finding a place that could be truly mine, while still leaving the room to move and roam.  Like all nomads, I don't expect that day to ever actually come, and I'm mostly OK with that.  I am, in fact, generally suspiscious of the spiritually sedentary - I'm sure it's possible to be sedentary and still alive, but I don't often see it. :)

1.  Where did you grow up?  What was the world like then?  How have things changed since your childhood?

I grew up in a small town where most people were of the same financial circumstance. Most were now what we would probably call working poor but with a few with a higher status. I went to a Baptist church until I was 14 but already I was questioning and searching.  I started attending the United Church, youth group and confirmation. This is where everything happened. Church twice on Sunday, choir, and on Sunday where nothing was open, this is where we all were. As I think back there were no minorities, no openly GLBT and  youth and children did not participate in service and I could not take communion until I was confirmed.  Now I see that it was white,middle class and the UCW ran the kitchen and there were only men on the board. but it was a very safe place to be and I have only good memories.

2.  How do you think your childhood experience has shaped your spiritual longings?

I thank the United Church  that gave me permission to stretch my spiritual longings. I was always proud of the United Church's stance on all things difficult and it has given me an appreciation for "others".

3.  Do you relate to the idea of being a "spiritual nomad?"  Why or why not?

I would not be a participant of WonderCafe if I was not a "spiritual nomad". If one becomes sedentary and complacent in their spiritual journey, one will grind to a halt.For every question sought and answered there is always something else calling to our hearts.I am on a spiritual quest every day.

It might be a bit of a misnomer for what DBB is writing, but it captures me well.  As I tried to say, I'm actually relatively comfortable being permanently on the move.

Hi RevMatt:

Yes, from re-reading your post, I realize that you are a true nomad.

The kosmic singularity in a state of synthesis is my ultimate self: I'm a monad.

Hi Meredith,

I grew up in Brantford, Ontario.  As I was growing up Brantford was heavily invested in Massey Ferguson and most other industry was geared towards producing supplies that the largest combine plant in North America would need to continue to produce combines.

When Massey Ferguson decided to relocate to the United States it was disaster.  Like a house of cards Brantford fell flat, the city grew desperate and made some big blunders, like allowing Eaton's to come in and decimate a downtown core that was thriving.

Things changed when someone decided Brantford was still worth loving.  The 403 was finally completed which made Brantford attractive to industry.  Laurier decided to open a satellite campus in Brantford as did Nipissing.  The downtown core is slowly but surely being revitalized as the enrollment in both climbs steadily.  They have taken over several older buildings, restored, their exteriors and refitted them for their institutional purposes.

Ferrero Co.  Decided that Brantford would be a suitable location for a production facility and was so impressed with the ability to find skilled labourers here that the initial plan for three product lines was expanded to five which means more employment.  They have also brought their supply industries into Brantford and Ferrero appears to be a very friendly corporate neighbour.

The city is growing fastest in West Brant which for the longest time was that neglected armpit of the city on the other side of the river.  The city has been used in the filming of "Silent Hill" and a few other movies.

The City Council still gets up to a certain amount of foolishness but they are not fiddling while the city burns anymore.

I think that the desperation of the city in very uncertain times impressed upon me the need to not panic.  Things changed often enough in the city when times were good to show us that change was not something to be feared. 

Our "A" league hockey team went from being the Brantford Forresters (Insurance Company Sponser) to the Brantford Alexanders (A Tavern Sponser).  We went from Junior A (kids on the way up) to Senior A (Guys on their way down or others who just never made it).

Our football team folded and is now a youth football organization.

Our Major Inter-County Ball team dominated the 80's but always seemed to fall short in the play-offs except for one championship.

Wayne ran a celebrity Tennis Tournament fundraiser that went to celebrity golf and then fizzled into a youth hockey tournament.

With the opening of a very poorly designed and even more shoddily planned Eaton's Centre in the downtown core the downtown imploded and businesses that were small and independant and excellent service providers closed their doors forever.

Things change in Brantford.  Not always for the better either.  So most who live here are not strangers to change.  Brantford has produced individuals who are accomplished in a number of fields so we are also confident that apart from our strong backs we have some sharp minds.

Not anymore I don't.  We moved back to Brantford, Ontario in 2005 because the property values here were very reasonable and it is close to major health facilities that we knew our son would need.  I still have family here and my wife hails from Guelph just up HWY 24 from Brantford so support systems exist here.  Most of my closest friends have moved away but there are still some very good friends here and the opportunity to spend time with them again is a real pleasure.

I am not in my home congregation but I can go back and visit and I do participate in its life peripherally.

The Slo-Pitch team that I have played for represents my home congregation.  Which means that when I am out on the diamond showing my hustle there are familiar voices in the stands that I remember from when I ruled Centrefield.

I can walk into many United Churches in the Brantford area and immediately connect with folk either because we share some common friends or acquaintances or because they are friends and acquaintances.

Brantford, Ontario is my home.  This is where I am most rooted.

Spiritually, serving in my home congregation would be difficult.  I mean if Jesus didn't have much luck in Nazareth I'd have to be pretty full of myself to think I could march in to my home congregation and pretend I was the answer to all of their problems.

Still, walking into that sanctuary, most recently to celebrate the life of one of my team-mates who died unexpectedly at the age of 47 is like walking into my own house.  People have changed.  The place feels and smells the same.  It smells and feels familiar.  There are more locks on the place now which is kind of funny.  It was always easy to get into the church and many times we did to have a game of ball hockey in the gym.  The organist lived next door and would have let us have the keys to the church if we just asked.  Slipping in through the old coal chutes was more exciting (they have since welded them shut--I checked).

Even though I minister now to two congregations that I really had very little contact with growing up (Oneida in Clanbrassil and Mt. Zion in Renton) I know the area fairly well.  Every day I drive to Mt. Zion I pass through the hamlet of Boston, Ontario which was a stop on my grandfather's breadroute.  I worked with him one summer on the delivery truck and still remember bits and pieces of the route even though many of the stops are gone.

I watched the farmers transition from tobacco to ginseng and soy and I see more ginseng operations going up all the time.  Change is nothing new to the country side either.

So no.  I do not feel like a nomad anymore.  When I was studying in Vancouver and ministring in Newfoundland and Labrador I felt more like a nomad.  Now I feel like I am rooted and grounded again.  Things have changed in the time I was gone.  Which isn't really surprising because things changed right before my eyes while I was in Brantford.

Spiritually, I grew and matured and even though my home congregation is more Methodist than I am (although Whitefield who helped Wesley build the Methodist Church was a Calvinist like myself) but I was always a little odd.  I am always made to feel welcome when I pop in for whatever reason and in a strange twist my mom who never attended while I was there began to attend after I left.

The generation that spawned me is now the second generation of my family to attend that particular church.  My wife and children also attend because there they aren't on display as the minister's wife and kids.  There they are John's wife and kids and the expectations are that they might be a little unpredictable and prone to boisterous laughter.

I'm home.

I'm not a nomad.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I understood nomad as a person who travels/moves often which is very common in Canada.  I think of the people from the east travelling to Alberta to work.  Often they are on contract so they go for a few months, come home and move back again.  I think of military personnel and their families and lots of other examples of people who do not settle in one area for a long period of time.  Therefore I thought the term fit these people very well. 

The adjectives wanderer, seeker and pilgrim speak of a journeying to find religious truth or the sacred and the movement is to that end.  I hunch that the people DBB is referring to are seeking personal prosperity (employment) or moving because it is required by their employer.  If there was a huge oilpatch in Nova Scotia I doubt many people would be moving to Alberta.

Therefore I believe the angle of chapter is what is the spiritual impact uprootedness?  What impact does having a congregation made up of nomads have on the church?  DBB says the church is going to look very different than the one she attended as a youth.

This idea (and reality) of moving around certainly has made an impact on me. It occurred initially because my parents split up and the household was in chaos until both parents settled into their new lives and marriages. When it was over all the kids (4 sibs, 1 half, and 3 steps) all just sort of fluttered to the floor like bits of ripped up coloured paper into two separate places. Like RevMatt the only place of consistency and "home" for me (where I share summers with all 8 of us) has been the cottage for most of  my life. I think I have pined for a place I could call "home" all the time that I have been wandering. Once I started wandering I lost the sense of  "church" and the church family that had sustained me through the disintigration of my family. Its easy to get maudlin about it. Sentimental... but still I kept wandering. So for me the idea that the nomad is a spiritual seeker and a nomad in the same way as someone who is travelling for work, or because of a relationship, the military, or whatever seems to make some kind of sense. These kinds of disruptions challenge us. How we react to the challenge reveals who/what we are. They inform our spiritual life, show us what kind of stuff we are made of.

meredith wrote:

What impact does having a congregation made up of nomads have on the church?

This is what I am really interested in discovering. In the old days people shared so many rites of passage with one congregation, births, deaths, weddings etc. Now it's not so common, maybe because of the nomad aspect, so perhaps we have lost that depth of connection. Since the ministers, pastors, priests, etc. are all coming and going too it makes for a very different kind of church than the one I was born into where the minister was there for some 20 odd years and was marrying the kids he had baptised.

Years ago there was research on the impact of moving - it was discovered that many active members of a church - those in leadership - often did not pick up the church when they moved.  In fact,  those who move often were less likely to make connections in a new locale -and this was true of other community involvement - especially if the kids had left school and moved.  The difference was if they make connections within the community or in the job with someone active, then they might make their way back to church.  They might be involved with things that advanced their position and job situations.

I found it difficult to go to church when I retired because the quality of sermons did not grab me -  When I worked in a church job that gave sundays off I found it hard to find a church home - it was only when I gave up the idea of relevance and let the liturgy carry me that I found a church home with adequate preaching - in many ways it was the study groups that made the difference.

I thought of "nomad" in the anthropological sense of the term: a nomadic herder or hunter/gather who moves not in a foreign territory but wthin a familiar territory.

Now, that the whole planet has become familiar territory, perhaps we all are nomads on our planet.

I certainly have done my share of moving around. I was born in Poland in 1940, my family fled to West Germany at the end of WWII, from there I migrated to Australia as a young man, in Australia I moved four times, migrated on to Canada 40 years ago, and moved twice. But I've been were I'm living now for 35 years, and am considered an "oldtimer."

The other point she is making with the 'death' of the village is the social pressure also disappeared - the 'myth' of the 50 and 60's was revealed as not the norm of church life, yet it is that many pine for and suggest that this energy of the church - how often do people say I remember when the sunday school was full. One important difference is demographic - two children families.

I use this illustration - my father has 9 brothers and sisters and only half of them stayed in the church - he had two sons and only one of them is in the church.   What if this more true of participation?   When I check with people this seems to be their experience and it removes some panic.

Crazyheart made this point in another topic _"

Social networking is Shrinking

This article was in the paper this morning  (Shanon Proudfoot - Canwest News Service)

Stats Canada figures indicate the proportion of Canadians reporting that they have at least friends has dropped across almost all demographics in recent years.

Here are some stat

• family dinners and family vacations or even just sitting and talking with family are down by 1/3 in last 25 years.
• Having friends over to the house is down by 45% over last 25 years
• Participation in clubs and civic organizations has been cut by half over last 25 years
• Involvement in community life, such as public meetings, is down by 35% over last 25 years
• Church attendance is down by roughly 1/3 since 1960
• Philanthropy as a fraction of income is down by nearly 1/3 since 1960

THE ARTICLE SAYS , IN GENERAL, WE ARE MORE CUT OFF AS A SOCIETY . The internet, chat rooms, on-line socializing seems to be the cause of some of this.

What do you think? I think that I can relate to all of the stats given in one way or another. What about you."

Well, Pan, I've noticed an increased level of dishsatisfaction in our rural area. This is not a spelling mistake, beause the general dissatisfaction co-incided with the appearance of satellite dishes everywhere. Rather than going to church or the community hall, or visiting with familiy, friends or neighbours, people are glued to their computer monitors and plasma TV screens.

We here on wondercafe are a virtual community. Is virtual community an adequate substitute for real community?

If I look at the quality of discussions at our church social hour, I must say that the discussion quality of our virtual community is much better.

Perhaps our virtual discussions here on wondercafe inspire us toward better real life discussions? Is this one of the great things about virtual communities like wondercafe?

I think it is!

Hey, Arminius...they got me up out of my computer chair and into a real church with real people...so that seems very significant to me. The discussions here in the cafe reminded me just how much I enjoy the company of people and the opportunity to share. And I think the internet hasn't really taken people away so much...they were already drifting. It just filled a need I think.

It would be great if that were so - certainly online community helped me to realize how much I enjoy face to face community.  I too am involved in a study group (David Bruce's Jesus 24/7 which I highly recommend) and I'm awed by the quality of discussion in our group.  Thing is we meet after church and my energy level is sub zero and that's the dilemma for me - it takes energy for me to socialize.  Not so much in an online community.  Plus online commuity is very convenient especially in winter time but it only goes so far doesn't it?

P.S.  love the dishatisfaction pun - very apt.

Interesting isn't it?  I don't find myself pining for high numbers of people so much as I do for fun.  I remember Church just being a lot of fun and since the 80's it hasn't been so much.  I'm not at all sorry that we took on sexuality or feminism or any of those things but I do wish that we hadn't been so heavy handed introducing them at times.  I can recall some people being really silly around inclusive language - we have little patience at times and want things changed immediately which isn't reasonable. 

I do think that the cultural changes and the reality of postmodern life has caused some congregations to work extra hard at resisting change in the church.  As if they need an anchor somewhere and the church is all they have to cling too.  Communities lose their schools, hospitals and other services and by God they're not losing their church too.

Pan, I am glad you have moved " Social network is shrinking " to this thread . I have deleted it in Social.

Back in my youth, the church was the hub of activity - from music - to sports- to entertainment = to Boy Scouts - to Girl Guides.These days there  are still these things but they have moved out of the church - And, of course, many of them are at church time.

Oh yes, Anjali, the virtual community here on wondercafe prompted me, too, to get off my computer chair and join the nearest congregation of the United Church: a real, living spiritual community!

I bet we are not the only ones.

Well, I better get off my chair now, and get ready for Sunday service.

Hi Meredith:

Virtual community should not and cannot replace real community, but is an ideal complement. As you said, we here on wondercafe commune and communicate at leisure. We can take time to think about what to say, and contemplate what others are saying, at length and leisure.

Just back from church which was a celebration of all things Scottish in lieu of Robbie Burns day. I am truly thankful to have found an inclusive friendly congregation to join and where it turns out I actually know somebody from a past life many moons ago. The point I want to make though is that I found this church on the internet. Their website is friendly, informative, easy to move around in and very welcoming; a pretty good representation of what they turned out to be. I am sure there will be ample opportunity to take part in discussions and activities there that complement the community here. it seems like a lot of churches have their own online groups/chat/forums. I bet alot of discussions that start at coffee time after church are continued in these cyber-parlours. I am grateful for the posters here who helped me make the transition from twirly chair to pew.

Do not take this as a discussion ender but I thought I'd better do this - is there anyone who will post the summary and host the discussion on chapter two this week? 

I thought it would be interesting to have people take turns so if anyone is interested pleasy let me know.  Maybe we could take volunteers for chapter three and four as well.

Thanks - Meredith

Meredith, 

I am happy to summarize a chapter and host the discussion.  Just let me know which one you would like me to do ... P3

Cool!  Could you summarize chapter 2 and we'll see if there are any folks willing to take on chapter 3 and chapter 4.  I don't mind doing the summary but I find I have to take notes as a read and then retype them so I'm rather slow...

Okay, I will get the chapter two thread started soon. 

Looking forward to more discussion about DBB's ideas ... P3

1.  small town- world seems the same as now, though I was less busy, and less concerned.  From where I was to where I am, I see multiculturalism and multifaith.  I see church more sidelined than I felt it was growing up.  

2.  my house was church-oriented, politically-minded.  so sure, it has affected my sense of spirit/purpose.  The two things are intertwined with a focus on compassion & real solutions/ not bandaids.  I see church as first an inward place of comfort, but then a place of moving outwards to make things better.  

3.  no, not really.  My understandings of faith are not pinned down or directed by anyone, but they never were.  Questions & exploring was how I've always experienced faith.  To me 'nomad' means if you can't find it here, go searching. 

When I look at the church in general, I see changes that don't fit with the structure (a no brainer).  I see people trying to keep it as a small, but helpful part of life, struggling with a structure that requires more involvement.  I see it requires people to understand some things first (doctrine, sacraments etc) which leads to obstacles rather than a place of exploring.  We dont' have easy ways for people to come in & start exploring.  More like, they walk in the door, and find new doors, bigger &  heavier.  There is a disconnect between what is needed and what is offered.  And yet to meet the needs - that energy can come from a place of comfort that church regulars have had a long time.  'Comfort' should be fuel for the church to reach out of comfort zones, rather than a state to protect.

I'm waiting patiently for something new in the book.

I am not sure it is the book or when I heard her ( twice) but she makes a point on how we live in a postmodern age and the church resists it, and if the church does not address the postmodern world it will be in trouble and it is those churches that take seriously our postmodern age that will flourish - and the book is an examination of the spiritual insights that help us.  As we go through we will see how these insights were lived out.

There is a difference between hospitality and fun.   That is some of our 'fun' times were not community building but a gathering - now nothing wrong here, but remember our youth groups - we played basketball and it was those with whom we had discussions afterward that we remember - the other faces might be there but names gone - so mere gathering had to have more and many church events were more surface than depth.  So what has happened in some communities society has provided other gathering places - yes there are some places that still have events that are friendship networks, but many have moved out of looking for that - other communities still have Christmas concerts ( other such events) like they use to ( my rural congregation does) yet it has no impact on church life - there is nothing wrong with feel good events but that is what they are -  My church is over full at the Christmas concert and not at Christmas eve, for the concert did the 'religious' Christmas event - (Christmas eve is full but not over like the concert)  For me this the modern approach in a post modern world - and the church spends a lot of energy  recreating the past and wonder why it does not put bums in the pew - because it use to.

Merridth does make a point on how the UCC in its push to social gospel did at times lose the 'religious' element - the issue is how to put practice and action together, spiritual depth with care of the world - praxis.  There are times when we felt like the NDP but not at prayer - There was a time in our history where the job of the church was to fix people - rather than lure them into the common good.  I say this as one whose basic grounding was in the social gospel but realized that a spiritual reality was needed to sustain the actions.

The other comment, not in the book, is that every 500 years the church has a rummage sale, where everything is on the table - we are such a time.

And it begs the question , Pan, are we going to buy old things at this rummage sale or are we going to send most of it to the land fill and start over with new?

We have a VERY talented music team at our tiny rural church.  Last Sunday the place rocked as we sang "Jesus Saw them Fishing" from More Voices.  "Jesus you Have come to the Lakeshore was played on keyboard and accordian and we sang "There is Room for All" from More Voices with harmony.  I loved it.

We've had a number of special services this year - a beautiful Taize service, Maundy Thursday service and 9:00 pm Christmas Eve service.  None of these services had a good turnout.  A Old time hymn sing service where we sang "Rock of Ages" and "Old Rugged Cross"  almost filled the church.  ack!  How's that for clinging to the past??

My husband came home from church and lamented that people who were absent said they "were taking a Sunday off" and he notes that many who sing in the choir will not come at all if the choir isn't doing anything.  Church has become another obligation for many people instead of something they want to do or are excited about.  This for me is the fun factor of church.  It doesn't mean no depth but it means that we are enjoying each other and feeling that practising Christianity is rewarding and meaningful. 

Hi Pan:

I sure hope we don't throw everything out at this bi-millenial rummage sale, as the CCPC and Gretta Vosper seem to propose. There is a lot of good stuff on that table, and a lot more good stuff may have been thrown out by misguided people at past bi-millenial rummage sales.

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Hi Birthstone: You said you are waiting patiently for something new in the book.

I'm waiting, too, but I'm afraid we may be waiting in vain.

The impulses for renewing the Church can't come from inside the Church, because the Church itself cannot see itself. To take an objective look at the Church, one has to be outside of it.

My major critique of the postmodern Church is just that: its postmodern bias. I think the Church should take one bold step ahead, into the post postmodern age, and another step back, to its very beginnings, and examine everything in between, and keep the best.

I would say in our church we have very little expectation that people understand things like doctrine or sacraments.  Our liturgies vary little and people can have things figured out pretty quickly if they attend a few services. 

What is it that you think people would like to explore when they come to church?  I hear you saying that those who have been a part of the church should be reaching out to newcomers more or even going out and inviting people to come in and I agree.  I think people need friendliness and warmth from people when they come to church and a feeling that they are welcomed.

I have no idea why two posts are here as I didn't hit the save button twice!  I'm going to bed...

It takes a discerning eye at rummage sales-  it does not beg the question but is the question - what is it we need? What is it that will help sort through?  What is it that sustains?   By the snape shots in the book we discover some of the things that helped - the next question for us as readers what do we make of those things.

The book is not a 'do this' and you will get bums in the pew.  It is a question of what are those things that enliven a community.  To move us past an optional state to this creates identity.   Check my web page, as we are having an event in June, to further probe the issue of the question of what are some of the basic praxis things we need to take off the table and use for the post post or post modern world.

Have been looking through the wikipedia list about the UCC and found this bit of information.

About 250,000 people attend United Church services in 3,405 local congregations, although some 2.8 million Canadians, or about 9% of the population, reported the United Church as their religious affiliation in the country's 2001 census.

I was really surprised by the number of people that actually attend. I guess I thought there were more.

And yet, we are still the largest protestant denomination in the country, and the second largest Christian denomination (second only the RC).

The church that I have attended the last 2 weeks has pretty much been full both times. It seems to be a very friendly and multi-generational socially conscious affirming church with programs for kids and young people and lots of events through the week including bible studies and prayer groups; a good mix of new and traditional. From my limited experience it seems like a very healthy congregation that has been around for quite awhile. They must be doing things that "enliven community." I felt warmly welcomed there and plan on going back. I know that this is anecdotal, but it does seem to reflect what DBB says about some Protestant churches that are thriving and growing as they intuit what people need and want these days. They seem to have been successful in instituting programs and services that speak to people today.

As I just said on a different thread, in our UCC church we keep services traditional, because the majority want it that way, but for the alternative crowd we have wondercafe.live! in our church hall every two weeks. Spiritual discussion groups, including people from both inside and outside our congregation, are already spinning off from that.

friendliness & warmth, respect for comfort levels (coffee, or slip out back door - either is ok), easy discussion to get into & out of - like a Wondercafe idea, from there, the ability to continue certain discussions that spark deeper interest.  And at the same time, they need a congregation that doesn't just see them as a warm body for an initial welcome, but then as meddlesome if their presence changes some direction.

I just finished the first part of the book and found it very interesting.  I didn't grow up in a church as my parents were not religious and they didn't want to force us to believe something that they didn't believe. 

I became a Christian as an adult after spending many years as a Buddhist.  I now go to a Lutheran church which is struggling with declining attendence and a growing debt.  That is one reason I wanted to read this book, I wanted to see how other mainline churches were dealing with those issues.

Our church is very welcoming and open to all people.  We have a thriving community ministry program.  We use traditional Lutheran liturgy but we have a worship band once a month.  Yet we struggle to attract new members.

I don't think we should change who we are just to attract new members, but we need to do something as we can't continue as we are.

Somehow I was just elected to our church council, so I will be directly involved as we face some hard decisions this year. 

I believe though that the Holy Spirit will guide to what we need to do.

Welcome again, lutherboy!

I was raised Lutheran, but became an atheist as an adult, and found my way back to Christianity via Zen Buddhism.

I have no solution to attracting new members to a declining Church, but since September of last year we have a wondercafe.live! in our church hall every first and third Friday night of each month. It is a discussion forum similar to www.wondercafe.ca  Because it is sponsored by but not directly connected with the United Church, it gives us a lot more leeway concerning alternative expressions of spirituality. It is our most successful outreach program so far. It already spawned off a separate discussion group and brought us a couple of new members.

Hi Arminus,

Thanks for the advice.

I was part of a discussion group when I was going through the process of becoming a member of my Lutheran church that I found very inspiring.  I asked our pastor if we could continue after it was officially over and she thought it was a good idea, but it hasn't gone anywhere since then.

I think I might ask again if we could set up a discussion group.  We have an adult education program, but this discussion could be more like a bible study, taking a piece of scripture and seeing what people think about it.