QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

DBB describes the Protestant landscape in the United States.  Are Canadian conservative fundamentalists attempting to "remix" our history like an "old Elvis song"?  

Have mainline churches in Canada started to resemble the Rotary Club?

What do you think of the model she presents of the "New Village Church"?

Thanks for the summary paradox. still reading chapter 2.... so catching up.

Yes.  (in a nutshell)

again, the first part of the book feels like been there, done that...  chapter 3 has been more engaging.

But, the rotary club vs the village church in one congregation seems to be where much of the struggle is found (in my experience).  People who are doing good stuff, comfortable in their place, aware of all the nice comfy patterns that help, running a busy Sunday School and tuning in to the spirit on Sundays are happy, they are served as needed (or they've left or started something already).  The village church serves the ones who aren't satisfied with the rotary club.  There are pockets of them but they wish there were more people, and they don't understand being satisfied with making pies & washing dishes & singing in the choir.  They put up with questions like, "only 8 people are in that group - should it continue??"  or "they can have their group, but don't change Sunday morning".  If they run an event, most people look right past it, and it is fatiguing.

My questions:  do we need BIG village churches?  Should it be about how many people are coming?  If a group functions best with 10-14 members, should we expect our groups to be wide open, or even to appeal to others?  Is growing the church (in either model) the right thing to be doing?  Are we dying if we have just 20/50/100 people discovering meaningful connection?  How can we communicate with people outside, in other churches and share our experiences?  How can we meet many needs and not always reinvent the wheel?  Should we just keep reinventing the wheel?

And I like to think that when there are smaller numbers, - the ones that come are the right people.

What is interesting in my small rural church - which is peopled by exurbans and not many farmers  - is there is a sense of it being the rotary at prayer - they do good works and make it to sunday when it is convenient.   There is a sense of community or communitus - but will there be a future for it? - my sense it is a generation away from having to close - The people are good people - care for the world - yet hard know how faith informs them - for some it is their rational for life in this world, for others it is habit.

DBB mentioned that society has become more multicultural and multifaith, but I didn't think she stressed these aspects enough. When I grew up in Toronto in the 50's and 60's, almost everyone I knew was either an active Christian or a cultural Christian. 

Last spring, I attended a one-day workshop with Tony Robinson (who was amazing, by the way).  He stressed that church congregations need to come to grips with the fact that the age of Christendom, or cultural domination by Christians, no longer exists. 

"The age of Christendom is over.  Thanks be to God," Tony said. 

It seems to me that church congregations have not necessarily all accepted this.  Who hasn't heard folks lamenting that we don't have hundreds of children in our Sunday Schools any more?

When I think back to church in my growing up years, I can relate to DBB's comments about the Rotary Club.

Yes, I agree with paradox3, and with Tony Robinson—wholeheartedly

I added the "wholeheartedly" for a particular reason. I came back to Christianity from Zen Buddhism not because Christianity is better or more spiritual or more intelligent than Zen. No, I think Zen Buddhism is the most intelligent and spiritual religion on the planet. (Sorry, Christians!  )

I came back to Christianity because of nostalgia. I am somewhat of a traditionalist, and the Christian tradition is my cultural spiritual tradition. Of all spiritual traditions, I love Christianity the most. It is the beloved religion of my childhood and youth, and of my culture, and that's why I became a Christian again, albeit a Zen Christian 

To me, Christianity is just a cultural preference. I think we Christians should scrap any claim to superiority or sole validity, and simply declare ourselves to be proudly Christian simply because we love our tradition and religion.

Hi Arminius, 

Thanks for posting on this thread, when everyone is so busy talking about the atheist bus ads .

For myself, walking the Christian path is more than a cultural preference, but I totally agree with your statement that we need to scrap any claim to superiority or sole validity.  I think that many Christians have, indeed, scrapped such claims. 

But I have to say that even in the liberal United Church of Canada, I was taught that Christians had exclusive access to God's kingdom.  I remember a Sunday School story called "If I had not come."  The gist of it was that if Jesus had not come, there would be no compassion in the world.  Even as a child, I thought this was nonsense. 

Hello again, paradox3:

I shouldn't have said, "just a cultural preference," as if to belittle Christianity, and my affinity for it.

I feel deeply about Christianity, and about Jesus Christ, and relate to him in a very profound and personal way. This, actually, is what makes me a Christian, not mere cultural preference.

Hi Arminius, 

Oh yes, I totally agree with your comments about Jesus Christ.  And I like DBB's emphasis on Christian practice in this chapter. 

"For myself, walking the Christian path is more than a cultural preference, but I totally agree with your statement that we need to scrap any claim to superiority or sole validity.  I think that many Christians have, indeed, scrapped such claims."

Do you think that is really so, Paradox? 

Yes, Crazyheart, I would say so.  What do you think?

Hi crazyheart: She just said "many," she didn't say how many.

Morover, I think she spoke of the liberal, progressive mainstream.

Most fundamentalist and evangelical Christian denominations would still consider Christianity superior to, or more valid than, other religions.

Most fundamentalist and evangelical Christian denominations would still consider Christianity superior to, or more valid than, other religions.

Yes, Arminius, I agree with what you say. I wonder how many of them there are?

Arminius, 

Yes, I am probably speaking about the "liberal, progressive mainstream", as you expressed it.  Or what DBB is calling "the rest of us".  All the same, I have met conservative Christians here on wcafe and in RL who do not fit the negative stereotype. 

DBB seems to be suggesting that "the rest of us" is a significant number, and I am finding CFTROU to be an encouraging book to read. 

Meredith will likely be looking for volunteers soon to host the next few chapters.  Any takers?

It is interesting the research in the USA suggests that a majority of Christians ( of all types) accept the idea that there are other ways to God.  I think it would be even more true of Canadians - check Bibby.

There is a linguistics issue of the meaning and use of superior - it can be understood as "yes this gives us the most full view but it is not the only view" or it can be understood as "only we have the truth" or it could mean "this works best for me"

I have defined myself as a theist who historical shaped by the christian faith - it is my path - which does not mean I have not learned from other faiths, which I have, but it is the path that is the fullest for me.   So I could say it is superior - as in the best in my experience - but of course that would get some upset so I would not use the word superior for that reason, but I can understand how some might use it, when used in this sense.

Hi paradox3 and Meredith:

I will host Chapter THREE: The New Village Church.

I'll post it around the middle of next week.

Now to something else. Many people in our valley are Seventh Day Adventists, as conservative and fundamentalist as can be. Some of them are our friends and neighbours, and we get along well, but they are obliged to believe that I am in the clutches of Satan. But then I'm in good company: All of the New Age, all Eastern religions, and even liberal/progressive mainstream Christianity is under the influence of Satan, not to speak of atheists, agnostics, and other unbelievers. How can they possibly believe that the vast majority of humanity are wrong and damned, and they themselves the righteous and chosen few? It is beyond me! I can't even be upset over it, it seems so absurd. I just shake my head with incredulity.

Thanks Arminius,

Look forward to the discussion.

 Hello Arminius!  I'm looking forward to Chapter 3 - I've finally been getting the brain cells stirred.  Whenever you're ready.  

It will be nice to have something other than 'does God exist'?  lol - Seems to relate very similarly to your Seventh Day Adventist experiences.  

Are we stuck in the middle of people who work in black & white, either convicted of one or convicted of the other?  And yet being gray, or convicted of possiblity seems to be so natural for us.  

I'm convicted lately that some people just work on very different wavelengths, with different criteria for valuing information.  Myers Briggs would show people who are focused more on ordering facts & information, while others feel out people & intuit possibility - Can they not communicate effectively?  

sorry - random thoughts that get away from our book, but still speak to how does a community (church or otherwise) embrace the wide umbrella?

Hi Birthstone: I just posted chapter TREE. Enjoy!