The whole "died for our sins" thing is confusing as heck and leads me to look the other way... It seems to have spawned countless saints and saint-wanna-be's who's entire purpose in life seemed to me to "die" for something or someone... Martyrdom. It's one thing to give your life for your friends because that is what life, at that moment, demands. It's a whole other can of worms to spend your life looking for opportunities (or so it seems) to die, to carry a cross, to martyr oneself in some shape or form. I don't actually think that this is what Christ had in mind... but it is one of those things that's developed, probably starting with Paul...
Cheers,
Nishy
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:14
Agnieszka wrote:
The whole "died for our sins" thing is confusing as heck and leads me to look the other way... It seems to have spawned countless saints and saint-wanna-be's who's entire purpose in life seemed to me to "die" for something or someone... Martyrdom. It's one thing to give your life for your friends because that is what life, at that moment, demands. It's a whole other can of worms to spend your life looking for opportunities (or so it seems) to die, to carry a cross, to martyr oneself in some shape or form. I don't actually think that this is what Christ had in mind... but it is one of those things that's developed, probably starting with Paul...
Cheers,
Nishy
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Hi Nishy: Congratulions and blessings! And welcome to the multicoloured UCC fold!
They don't want you to sacrifice anything. Just continue being the formidable spiritual Amazon that you are.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:31
Agnieszka wrote:
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Only what you're comfortable with, I'm sure. Congratulations!
Motheroffive
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:35
Hi Nishy and congratulations from me, too!
Rishi, isn't this an interesting question you've posed! You could have posed it such as "is there anything about being Christian that you don't like" or "is there anything about being like Jesus that you don't like" -- those I could have answered. I'm not sure I understand what it means to be "like Christ"...what does it mean to you? I'll need to check out Marcus Borg's analysis of pre-Easter and post-Easter or perhaps Matthew Fox's view of the Cosmic Christ...I hadn't really given any thought to being "like Christ", but have around being "like Jesus". Hmmm....
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:37
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:05
boltupright wrote:
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
-Aleister Crowley
That would just about embody the antichrist, wouldn't it?
But this quote by Crowley has been taken out of context. It pre-supposes that one has attained the unitive consiousness of feeling at-one with everyone and everything, including God, and then acts intuitively and directly from that consciousness. This, however, applies only to a few highly enlightened individuals. Most of us need a moral code to go by. And those who have attained unity with God, and everyone and everything, although they may not need rules, are not beyond the rules.
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:11
Arminius wrote:
boltupright wrote:
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
-Aleister Crowley
That would just about embody the antichrist, wouldn't it?
But this quote by Crowley has been taken out of context. It pre-supposes that one has attained the unitive consiousness of feeling at-one with everyone and everything, including God, and then acts intuitively and directly from that consciousness. This, however, applies only to a few highly enlightened individuals. Most of us need a moral code to go by. And those who have attained unity with God, and everyone and everything, although they may not need rules, are not beyond the rules.
So,,,what exactly are you saying Arminius?
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:19
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:23
boltupright wrote:
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
Kind of like Jeremiah 23:16-18... a very seductive christ who can read what the ego wants to hear and feed it back with the sound of religious authority. Kind of like the skills of a top-knotch marketing executive. It happens all the time, I think, because this is the kind of christ that is very easily assimilated into our ego-centered way of life.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:36
Arminius wrote:
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:39
rishi wrote:
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Yes...thanks, Rishi.
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 14:12
rishi wrote:
Arminius wrote:
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Indeed, now we are at the level of spiritual discernment of what is good, through the revelation of God's love, not fear of judgement.
Bolt
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 14:18
rishi wrote:
boltupright wrote:
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
Kind of like Jeremiah 23:16-18... a very seductive christ who can read what the ego wants to hear and feed it back with the sound of religious authority. Kind of like the skills of a top-knotch marketing executive. It happens all the time, I think, because this is the kind of christ that is very easily assimilated into our ego-centered way of life.
Exactly, this can be a start to whole other thread, eh?
I believe Crowley was "elightened" by total darkness, anyone who looks at his "elightenmnet" as an example is looking for trouble.
He had no reservations of delving into the things of darkness & this may seem to some as an "enlightenment", but it is "deception" to fullest & most infinate sense of the word.
Bolt
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 06/21/2009 15:54
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 16:12
InannaWhimsey wrote:
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Really?
That is what you think Crowley meant?
Bolt
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 06/21/2009 17:10
boltupright wrote:
InannaWhimsey wrote:
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Really?
That is what you think Crowley meant?
Bolt,
can you see how a sentence that is presented by itself has a totally different meaning than when presented in context? :3
Let me give you more of an illustration of what I think Crowley 'meant':
ok. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is in you and that you are in a relationship with Him? Ok, do you believe that He tells you what to do, in essence? In that He is a guide to your actions? So, in a real sense, this Spiritual experience is more real and Important than the carnal experience? And if you align your actions according to Him, then things are pretty much better?
I think that Crowley believed that everyone has this divine essence in them. He called it, among other things, 'Will'. And that by following this Will with Total Intent and not be distracted...this was 'for the good'.
I hope that made more sense :3
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 20:39
Crowley was a Gnostic. He founded the Ordo Templi Orientis and the Gnostic Catholic Church. Both are credible religious organizations, and have to be understood within the context of their teachings. Quoting them out of context distorts what they are about.
Aleister Crowley is the latest in a very long line of mystics whom they revere. I have a copy of their Gnostic Catholic Mass, which begins as follows:
Deacon: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I proclaim the Law of Light, Life, Love, and Liberty, in the name of IAO."
The Congregation: "Love is the law, love under will."
The Deacon and the Congregation: "I believe in one sceret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mysteries, in His name CHAOS, the sole viceregent of the Sun upon the Earth, and in one Air, the nourisher of all that breathes.
"And I believe in one Earth, the Mother of us all, and in one Womb wherein all men are begotten, and wherein they shall rest, mystery of mysteries, in her name BABALON.
"And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mysteries, in His name BAPHOMET.
"And I believe in one Gnostic and Catholic Church of Light, Life, Love, and Liberty, the Word of whose Law is THELEMA.
"And I believe in the communion of Saints.
"And, for as much as meat and drink are transmuted to us into daily spiritual substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass.
"And I confess one Baptism of Wisdom, whereby we accomplish the Miracle of Incarnation.
"And I confess my life one, individual and eternal, that was, is, and is to come.
"AUMGN AUMGN AUMGN"
Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
One of the accusations levelled against the Knights Templar by the Church during the infamous Templar trials of the early 14th century was that they worshipped an idol named "Baphomet."
It could be that the Templars, or some of the Templars, were Christian Gnostics.
Olivet_Sarah
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:31
I am of the mind of Ghandi's quote - I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ. (or something like that - Just read it in another thread here on WonderCafe).
I would not mind being 'Christ like' and have no problem attempting to emulate him in my understanding of him in the slightest; the selflessness of his sacrifices, the concern for others, the civic mindedness, his relationship with God, etc. But that's just it, that's my understanding. And I do not like the understanding of Christ some others might have - judgemental, intolerant, wrathful, etc. Not to paint that Christ cannot get angry, or God is simply a warm and fuzzy and loving God - but I think they would have better reasons to feel that way than 'X is gay' or 'Y had an abortion' etc. And if I were to ever become 'Christ-like' according to that understanding, I would have strayed quite far from my understanding of my faith as it holds today.
Northwind
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:57
This is a good topic. It is very timely for me right now as I am in a crisis related to my church. I am not sure it extends to an actual crisis of faith, but it might. I particularly like Olivet_Sarah's comments. It is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. Is the Christ I do not want to be like, the Christ of the UCC or the Catholic Church or whatever? Whose Christ are we talking about because sometimes it seems there are many versions.
If I try to be like the Christ I envision, what happens if others around me, especially church people, do not follow this path.....or anything remotely resembling "Christ-like" as far as I can see?
This is something I need to ponder. I have been sorely tempted to ask "what the f--- would Jesus do in this situation?" lately as I have found myself in conflict with someone who is not even on the same page as I am, he is in a whole other book. He is rewriting history and spreading untruths (not necessarily lies since he seems to believe his nonsense). There is no way I can see right now of being able to sort this out. As a result, I may have to leave my church, and possibly question all of what UCC stands for. Okay, so I know I am dealing with humans.
I guess this leads me to the question, how do we ask others to be the Christ they are meant to be, or what if their version is vastly different from ours.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:59
The Christ I do not want to be like is the one I was taught as a child and up to about 15 years old.
Shalom
Mate
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:05
Anyone overtly or secretly "turned off " of becoming like Christ is totally confused about who Christ is and what His purpose was. Jesus Christ is the sum of perfection in relation to Righteous character. We are a corrupt society. Our morals, ethics and standards for living have eroded away to be re-written by our own ignorantly biased self righteousness. We believe it is ourselves that can define right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that we have been given enough wealth and stability to create our own synthetic reality has allowed us to literally "hang" ourselves. As a society we are coming to a chaotic gridlock because of these foolish delusions about God and Jesus.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:17
What I struggle with most is, as others have mentioned, the "suffering/sacrifice" theme that threads it's way back in time. I even wonder if this was ever a part of the hypothetically actual Jesus story. It feels much too pagan and cultural to me. This certainly was why I was drawn to buddhism, since it offered a way of working with one's thoughts to alleviate suffering.
I view the Christ as that amazing, and growing rumour of a Loving God
If we're talking about simplicity of compassion (knowing we needn't go far to witness terrible, human-scale suffering) and not gratuitous or cruel idealization of suffering, that that feels like the Christ to me.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:17
Melbatross
I most definitely cannot agree with that post. I was raised a fundamentalist and have rejected it and the so called Christianity I was taught. It was not from Jesus.
Shalom
Mate
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:26
Society changes as time goes on. There have always been problems of evil in the world and they will continue but that does not mean in any way the the whole world is on its way to the mythical hell.
As times change and knowledge advances our understandings of reality and the Divine also change as they should. We no longer live in the dark ages and should not think as they did. We too must change.
The world is not some evil place but it does contain evil every bit as much as it contains good and holy.
Shalom
Mate
The Liberal
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:58
I'll be honest with y'all. I don't really know what it means to be "Christ-like". Does it mean "meek and mild"? (Where did that conception of Christ come from anyway?). Or does it mean "rebellious and strong"? Or a bit of both, depending on the situation? (Well, that makes most sense, considering that we are talking about someone completely human... and humans tend to contain a great mix of things). Or, is the Christ not human? Sort of like "Buddha-nature"? I'm really out of touch with my mystical side at the moment... Currently, the seeking of justice if most prominent on my spiritual journey, but that was not always the case... And I definitely feel a strong yearning for the Presence of God/Christ/Sophia/The Holy in my everyday. So, I often call out "Maranatha" (come Lord Jesus), but perhaps I'm not patient enough to hear a response... or else, my children's needs burst in and mix up the moment... Although, I suspect, that is exactly where the Christ is for me right now: in the moment to moment neediness and noisiness of my kids. It's just not something I've found reflected in the stories told in Christianity, so, I guess it's confusing...
Anyway, sorry for the garbled rant... it's past my bedtime.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:03
Mate,
Maybe you don't watch the news outside your local area, this world is an evil place with some good trying to be done in it. Yes society changes but change in itself doesn't mean better. Also if society changes why to you does that mean our understanding of the Divine should diminish ? You are right in your statement that the world isn't headed for a mythical hell. That is because it is headed for a real literal Hell
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:12
Agnies
A good "rant". At this point in your life your children are probably the most important part. That does not mean one cannot make small steps.
Yes, both meek and mild, and rebellious. Whatever the situation requires. Just wait and things will happen. You may help some but things will come your way. Prayer is good.
Shalom
Mate
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:14
Mate,
As you should reject so-called Christianity. Most fundamentalists condemn themselves just by their title, they are stuck on the fundamentals and haven't matured. Generally they wield Bible knowledge and ritual as their righteousness, while living un-Christlike lives. True Christianity is not easy to follow or emulate. The Bible interprets itself and everything fits perfectly. People are mostly deluded by their own inability to grasp and exercise what God expects of us and end up wrongly judging God and the validity of the Bible because of the promoting of a "false" Christianity by greatly deluded individuals. I think if you asked Jesus to interpret it for you, you would have a good impression of Christianity.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:21
Melbatross7
I am up on world news and local news on a daily basis. I know what is going on in the world. But, I do see the good as well as the bad. The world has not changed in over 3000 years. It is all relative.
You are the one who has said that the Divine should diminish, not I. As our fund of knowledge and our conceptualization abilities change so does how we see the Divine. This does not deminish the Divine but makes the Divine even more real. Faith increases. It does not diminish. In Jesus day they thought as did Jesus that epilepsy was caussed by demon posession. We now understand where it comes from. The whole of human existence has been thus. When we ask most people today to believe in the Genesis stories of creation they simply laugh and turn away. That is a stumbling block to faith. We know that evolution is how the earth has developed.
If you choose to believe in satan as a real entity and in hell as a literal place that is fine with me. I do not. That like the creation stories is myth.
Shalom
Mate
The Liberal
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:24
Melbatross7 wrote:
Mate,
True Christianity is not easy to follow or emulate. The Bible interprets itself and everything fits perfectly. People are mostly deluded by their own inability to grasp and exercise what God expects of us and end up wrongly judging God and the validity of the Bible because of the promoting of a "false" Christianity by greatly deluded individuals.
Wow! That's so jam-packed of action I hardly know where to start?
Mind if I throw some questions at you? (I'm not being sacrastic, or anything, just really curious, btw.)
How do you know this? Where do you get your prespective? Are you part of a church? Mind if I ask what denomination? How do you arrive at your conclusions?
What is "True Christianity"? Where do you find it?
Melbatross7 wrote:
I think if you asked Jesus to interpret it for you, you would have a good impression of Christianity.
How do you do that? Jesus, the human who died, isn't around to ask. Jesus, the metaphysical/spiritual/Divine Christ has been understand and interpreted a million times over the centuries and in so many often totally conflicting ways. How do you make heads or tails of all that?
Nishy
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:29
Melbatross7
The Bible is not the absolute and inerrant word of God. It is a very human book, albeit inspired, made up of myths, legends, folk tales, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy, theology and there are some bits of actual history included throughout. It was written in an ancient Jewish style called Midrash which makes great use of metaphor. As such it has to be interpreted in that way if one wants to understand what the writers were intending. It also contains some letters by Paul and several ascribed to Paul but written by his disciples.
In interpreting the Bible it is possible to get many interpretations from the same passage and each will be equally as valid. They are the stories of our ancestors and they interpreted their walk with God. The Bible we have is thus interpretations of interpretations and then we add on top our.
Fundamentalism is a product of the late 19th cent. and does not go back to the early church of the apostles. Biblical inerrancy is an invention of the reformation.
Shalom
Mate
GRR
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:29
rishi wrote:
If so, can you describe the Christ that you don't want to be like.
Initial, trite answer - no need to describe that Christ. The so-called fundies/triumphalists/exclusivists, knowing him better, do a much more detailed job than I ever could.
In fact, Christians have so soundly rejected "that Christ" that it has brought low the entire institution of the church. That is not a "Christ" that I want to be like.
Actually, scratch the word "trite' above. That pretty much sums it up.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:31
Agnies
Some good questions. I too would be interested in the answers.
Shalom
Mate
GRR
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:40
Agnieszka wrote:
Although, I suspect, that is exactly where the Christ is for me right now: in the moment to moment neediness and noisiness of my kids. It's just not something I've found reflected in the stories told in Christianity, so, I guess it's confusing...
Actually, those stories are there, they just tend to be left in the background, on hidden under the silly theatrics that many think of as more "important."
Consider the story of the "first miracle", the water into wine deal. Set aside arguments over the "reality" of it for the moment. For me, it has nothing to do with "Jesus' power". It has everything to do with a son going out of his way to please his mom. And a mother's pride at her son's ability. Think of the miracle as "and Mary got Jesus to play the piano at the reception and everyone was thrilled at his gesture" and you can instantly see the Presence of God in the everyday, can't you?
The four gospels are full of stories like that.
blackbelt
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:11
Agnieszka wrote:
How do you do that? Jesus, the human who died, isn't around to ask. Jesus, the metaphysical/spiritual/Divine Christ has been understand and interpreted a million times over the centuries and in so many often totally conflicting ways. How do you make heads or tails of all that?
Nishy
For me , it all began here,,,
Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.
It took me 3 months of solitude, prayer and a true heart to want to know if he was real. Just to still and quite my mind from all the garbage I let into it from all the yrs of living on this planet, that was a big obstacle in its self , but in the end it took my last cry out to him, God if you are who you are I surrender. That was the beginning of my rebirth, and it is the Spirit of Jesus that becomes your Teacher, Guide and comforter.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you." (John 14:26)
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH ..." (JOHN 16:13)
1)Your teacher because he will open up scripture to your mind and reveal the spiritual truths.
2)Your Guide in Life because he will be with you and you will know his voice and direction.
3)Your comforter because He will carry you through your tribulations of life.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:13
Mate,
I believe you see the world through rose coloured glasses. The world has changed immensly in 3000 years - any historian would call you blind ! To say it is all relative is to do nothing more than show your ignorance and lack of study into what you comment on.
You implied by your statement of change that the Divine becomes less. You state on one hand about the reality of the divine ,then immediately you state the whole as a myth.
In Jesus day they didn't know anything about epilepsy. Someone in modern day made that assumption to fit with human reasoning and possibility. When Jesus stated demons, He meant demons. A genetic condition can't be transferred to pigs that make them jump a cliff to their death(one example - many others)
The Genesis story is only a stumbling block to the faithless. Evolution is still a theory where many people are still trying to force pieces of the puzzle to support this theory. For instance the latest archealogical find of a prehistoric otterlike creature that is supposed to be a missing link to water and land creatures........we still have otters today that do the same thing, what about the duckbill platypus in Australia? All we see is a pattern of development that some scientists want to substantiate without God.
You can give no proof that the Bible is myth. There is much proof for it and nothing more than human reasoning against it.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:50
Agnieszka,
I don't mind questions, infact I rather enjoy them....keeps me on my toes.!
I know this from extensively studying the Bible from within itself, which includes word studies, chronological studies, historical and style studies, study of individuals, geographical studies, prophetic studies and the use of many aids, commentaries, open debates on specific and general topics of every imaginable kind. This is over years of prayer, worship, application and an accumulating of my own personal empirical evidence which every Christian must accumulate to maintain a sound conviction and commitment.
True Christianity is portrayed in the Bible, God's Word - God's literal Word as recorded through the humans He dealt with. No one today has had the kind of contact that those individuals in the 2 Testaments had and doesn't openly contact us as He used to. Therefore it is easy to yield to doubt, rationalizing, and a general subverting of the reality of God.
At this point I will say nothing more about my Denomination and attendance other than that I am working to become a true Christian. Automatic assumptions will be made if I state that I am part of this or that group which could be used to undermine our real source and authority - God and His Word. As I have stated before, as soon as we put a human face to a group, we think that it is valid to judge who God is by the actions of that individual or group - ignore the individual or group ! God's Word is the stick we measure by. Once you understand what God states you then can judge for yourself whether this or that group or individual is following it. It is necessary to have a good understanding of the Bible. Our countries at one time were built on and existed by it.
Regarding Jesus - He rose to life as the Bible states. He is very much alive and offers a relationship with any that will hear and believe Him. If you apply yourself to sincere searching of truth and studying of His Word, you will find clarity. The Holy Spirit is present with us in His abscence to lead and guide us to much understanding and conviction so that there is good clarity on what is true. Ask Him as the Bible states and you will receive. Talk to Him like you would talk to anyone else(obviously respectfully), that is what prayer is - communication with God. I know who Jesus, the Holy Spirit and who God is because I've done the work to find out. We each have to do the same and not get side tracked by the mystical, ethereal, metaphysycal and barrage of foolish lies. When you do this you will have peace of mind and safety with God Himself.
As you appear to be sincere, I will pray for your understanding tonight - see what you can find.
Good night - Melba
Northwind
Posted on: 06/22/2009 01:28
Melba, are you suggesting that two testament writers had direct contact with Jesus?
seeler
Posted on: 06/22/2009 08:46
Melbatross - In the first chapter of Genesis in the Bible I read "God saw the world and it was good." That's good enough for me. God sees the world as good, and so do I.
seeler
Posted on: 06/22/2009 09:02
The Christ you DON'T want to be like? That is the question.
Well, I'm not sure what Christ is like. So I'll go back to Jesus. I try to follow the teaching and example of Jesus. I see Jesus as a man who had a particular strong relationship with God, a relationship so strong that afterwards as people thought about it they realized that they saw God in him. I see him as living among the poor and outcast, sharing their lives and showing them how to live in the kingdom of heaven in the here and now. I see him as growing in his understanding of God and his relationship not only with God but with others. And I see him courageously accepting that he stood a good chance of being killed for what he believed to be right. This is the Jesus I try to follow.
The Jesus I don't want to be like is the one sometimes portrayed by the early church - the Jesus who was judgmental, who was shown to be anti-semetic (he was a Jew himself - his followers were Jews - he wasn't trying to start a new religion). I don't like some of the words that he is said to have spoken - that seem so out of context with other things he said and the life he led that I question now whether he said them or whether they were added by the early church.
I like the Jesus who was cold and hungry, who was tired and discouraged, who wept in sorrow, who got impatient and angry, who drank wine and celebrated with his friends, who laughed and told funny stories about weeds that grew into big trees, and camels trying to get through small openings, who reached out to women and children, who shared his bread and his life, who changed his mind about God's message being for Gentiles as well as Jews, and who faced death with dignity and compassion instead of fear and hate. Who was not overcome by evil but who overcame evil with good.
Comments
The Liberal
Posted on: 06/21/2009 10:55
The whole "died for our sins" thing is confusing as heck and leads me to look the other way... It seems to have spawned countless saints and saint-wanna-be's who's entire purpose in life seemed to me to "die" for something or someone... Martyrdom. It's one thing to give your life for your friends because that is what life, at that moment, demands. It's a whole other can of worms to spend your life looking for opportunities (or so it seems) to die, to carry a cross, to martyr oneself in some shape or form. I don't actually think that this is what Christ had in mind... but it is one of those things that's developed, probably starting with Paul...
Cheers,
Nishy
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:14
The whole "died for our sins" thing is confusing as heck and leads me to look the other way... It seems to have spawned countless saints and saint-wanna-be's who's entire purpose in life seemed to me to "die" for something or someone... Martyrdom. It's one thing to give your life for your friends because that is what life, at that moment, demands. It's a whole other can of worms to spend your life looking for opportunities (or so it seems) to die, to carry a cross, to martyr oneself in some shape or form. I don't actually think that this is what Christ had in mind... but it is one of those things that's developed, probably starting with Paul...
Cheers,
Nishy
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Hi Nishy: Congratulions and blessings! And welcome to the multicoloured UCC fold!
They don't want you to sacrifice anything. Just continue being the formidable spiritual Amazon that you are.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:31
Ps. I'm becoming an UCC'er today. Wander what they'll ask me to sacrifice for them in the name of Christ?
Only what you're comfortable with, I'm sure.
Congratulations!
Motheroffive
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:35
Hi Nishy and congratulations from me, too!
Rishi, isn't this an interesting question you've posed! You could have posed it such as "is there anything about being Christian that you don't like" or "is there anything about being like Jesus that you don't like" -- those I could have answered. I'm not sure I understand what it means to be "like Christ"...what does it mean to you? I'll need to check out Marcus Borg's analysis of pre-Easter and post-Easter or perhaps Matthew Fox's view of the Cosmic Christ...I hadn't really given any thought to being "like Christ", but have around being "like Jesus". Hmmm....
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 11:37
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:05
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
-Aleister Crowley
That would just about embody the antichrist, wouldn't it?
But this quote by Crowley has been taken out of context. It pre-supposes that one has attained the unitive consiousness of feeling at-one with everyone and everything, including God, and then acts intuitively and directly from that consciousness. This, however, applies only to a few highly enlightened individuals. Most of us need a moral code to go by. And those who have attained unity with God, and everyone and everything, although they may not need rules, are not beyond the rules.
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:11
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
That is the kind of christ I will avoid altogether. A false christ, an antichrist.
Bolt
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
-Aleister Crowley
That would just about embody the antichrist, wouldn't it?
But this quote by Crowley has been taken out of context. It pre-supposes that one has attained the unitive consiousness of feeling at-one with everyone and everything, including God, and then acts intuitively and directly from that consciousness. This, however, applies only to a few highly enlightened individuals. Most of us need a moral code to go by. And those who have attained unity with God, and everyone and everything, although they may not need rules, are not beyond the rules.
So,,,what exactly are you saying Arminius?
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:19
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:23
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
Kind of like Jeremiah 23:16-18... a very seductive christ who can read what the ego wants to hear and feed it back with the sound of religious authority. Kind of like the skills of a top-knotch marketing executive. It happens all the time, I think, because this is the kind of christ that is very easily assimilated into our ego-centered way of life.
rishi
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:36
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 06/21/2009 12:39
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Yes...thanks, Rishi.
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 14:12
I am saying that the quote by Crowley applies not to the public at large, but only to a few highly enlightened individuals, who don't really need that quote.
I think the quote is irresponsible, and can indeed lead to all kinds of evil.
But now I must get ready for church. Talk to you later.
Not only that.... I think it's plagiarized from Augustine, who said "Love God and do as you will." But Augustine said this in the context of how the sanctifying power of divine love purifies our hearts, so that our vocation becomes simply "doing as we will." In other words, when our will is in harmony with the divine will, we just go ahead and do as we will. Taken out of that context, though, it looses its true meaning, as Arminius was suggesting.
Indeed, now we are at the level of spiritual discernment of what is good, through the revelation of God's love, not fear of judgement.
Bolt
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 14:18
I don't want to be a christ that would just say it's all good. do as thou wilt. & all will be well with you.
Kind of like Jeremiah 23:16-18... a very seductive christ who can read what the ego wants to hear and feed it back with the sound of religious authority. Kind of like the skills of a top-knotch marketing executive. It happens all the time, I think, because this is the kind of christ that is very easily assimilated into our ego-centered way of life.
Exactly, this can be a start to whole other thread, eh?
I believe Crowley was "elightened" by total darkness, anyone who looks at his "elightenmnet" as an example is looking for trouble.
He had no reservations of delving into the things of darkness & this may seem to some as an "enlightenment", but it is "deception" to fullest & most infinate sense of the word.
Bolt
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 06/21/2009 15:54
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
boltupright
Posted on: 06/21/2009 16:12
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Really?
That is what you think Crowley meant?
Bolt
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 06/21/2009 17:10
rishi, I used to be turned off, in my earlier days, when I had this indelible image of Christ being that white, bearded middle-class dude.
I've since become much better, thank you. Especially when I realized how invaluable Christ would be at wine tastings...
Putting on my 'Clearing Things Up' or 'Pedantic' hat, here :3
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
To put things in context here, I think that what Crowley meant by this was that, when you are Doing something, do it with Your Whole Being. Don't Get Distracted.
If you're driving, Do It. If you're making Love, Do It. If you're Praying, Do It. If you're listening to someone, Do It. If you're Analyzing or Synthesizing something, Do It. And so forth. Just like the Bible says, G_d doesn't swallow lukewarm people...
As you were, sentients.
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Really?
That is what you think Crowley meant?
Bolt,
can you see how a sentence that is presented by itself has a totally different meaning than when presented in context? :3
Let me give you more of an illustration of what I think Crowley 'meant':
ok. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is in you and that you are in a relationship with Him? Ok, do you believe that He tells you what to do, in essence? In that He is a guide to your actions? So, in a real sense, this Spiritual experience is more real and Important than the carnal experience? And if you align your actions according to Him, then things are pretty much better?
I think that Crowley believed that everyone has this divine essence in them. He called it, among other things, 'Will'. And that by following this Will with Total Intent and not be distracted...this was 'for the good'.
I hope that made more sense :3
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
Arminius
Posted on: 06/21/2009 20:39
Crowley was a Gnostic. He founded the Ordo Templi Orientis and the Gnostic Catholic Church. Both are credible religious organizations, and have to be understood within the context of their teachings. Quoting them out of context distorts what they are about.
Aleister Crowley is the latest in a very long line of mystics whom they revere. I have a copy of their Gnostic Catholic Mass, which begins as follows:
Deacon: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I proclaim the Law of Light, Life, Love, and Liberty, in the name of IAO."
The Congregation: "Love is the law, love under will."
The Deacon and the Congregation: "I believe in one sceret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mysteries, in His name CHAOS, the sole viceregent of the Sun upon the Earth, and in one Air, the nourisher of all that breathes.
"And I believe in one Earth, the Mother of us all, and in one Womb wherein all men are begotten, and wherein they shall rest, mystery of mysteries, in her name BABALON.
"And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mysteries, in His name BAPHOMET.
"And I believe in one Gnostic and Catholic Church of Light, Life, Love, and Liberty, the Word of whose Law is THELEMA.
"And I believe in the communion of Saints.
"And, for as much as meat and drink are transmuted to us into daily spiritual substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass.
"And I confess one Baptism of Wisdom, whereby we accomplish the Miracle of Incarnation.
"And I confess my life one, individual and eternal, that was, is, and is to come.
"AUMGN AUMGN AUMGN"
Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
One of the accusations levelled against the Knights Templar by the Church during the infamous Templar trials of the early 14th century was that they worshipped an idol named "Baphomet."
It could be that the Templars, or some of the Templars, were Christian Gnostics.
Olivet_Sarah
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:31
I am of the mind of Ghandi's quote - I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ. (or something like that - Just read it in another thread here on WonderCafe).
I would not mind being 'Christ like' and have no problem attempting to emulate him in my understanding of him in the slightest; the selflessness of his sacrifices, the concern for others, the civic mindedness, his relationship with God, etc. But that's just it, that's my understanding. And I do not like the understanding of Christ some others might have - judgemental, intolerant, wrathful, etc. Not to paint that Christ cannot get angry, or God is simply a warm and fuzzy and loving God - but I think they would have better reasons to feel that way than 'X is gay' or 'Y had an abortion' etc. And if I were to ever become 'Christ-like' according to that understanding, I would have strayed quite far from my understanding of my faith as it holds today.
Northwind
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:57
This is a good topic. It is very timely for me right now as I am in a crisis related to my church. I am not sure it extends to an actual crisis of faith, but it might. I particularly like Olivet_Sarah's comments. It is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. Is the Christ I do not want to be like, the Christ of the UCC or the Catholic Church or whatever? Whose Christ are we talking about because sometimes it seems there are many versions.
If I try to be like the Christ I envision, what happens if others around me, especially church people, do not follow this path.....or anything remotely resembling "Christ-like" as far as I can see?
This is something I need to ponder. I have been sorely tempted to ask "what the f--- would Jesus do in this situation?" lately as I have found myself in conflict with someone who is not even on the same page as I am, he is in a whole other book. He is rewriting history and spreading untruths (not necessarily lies since he seems to believe his nonsense). There is no way I can see right now of being able to sort this out. As a result, I may have to leave my church, and possibly question all of what UCC stands for. Okay, so I know I am dealing with humans.
I guess this leads me to the question, how do we ask others to be the Christ they are meant to be, or what if their version is vastly different from ours.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 21:59
The Christ I do not want to be like is the one I was taught as a child and up to about 15 years old.
Shalom
Mate
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:05
Anyone overtly or secretly "turned off " of becoming like Christ is totally confused about who Christ is and what His purpose was. Jesus Christ is the sum of perfection in relation to Righteous character. We are a corrupt society. Our morals, ethics and standards for living have eroded away to be re-written by our own ignorantly biased self righteousness. We believe it is ourselves that can define right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that we have been given enough wealth and stability to create our own synthetic reality has allowed us to literally "hang" ourselves. As a society we are coming to a chaotic gridlock because of these foolish delusions about God and Jesus.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:17
What I struggle with most is, as others have mentioned, the "suffering/sacrifice" theme that threads it's way back in time. I even wonder if this was ever a part of the hypothetically actual Jesus story. It feels much too pagan and cultural to me. This certainly was why I was drawn to buddhism, since it offered a way of working with one's thoughts to alleviate suffering.
I view the Christ as that amazing, and growing rumour of a Loving God
If we're talking about simplicity of compassion (knowing we needn't go far to witness terrible, human-scale suffering) and not gratuitous or cruel idealization of suffering, that that feels like the Christ to me.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:17
Melbatross
I most definitely cannot agree with that post. I was raised a fundamentalist and have rejected it and the so called Christianity I was taught. It was not from Jesus.
Shalom
Mate
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:26
Society changes as time goes on. There have always been problems of evil in the world and they will continue but that does not mean in any way the the whole world is on its way to the mythical hell.
As times change and knowledge advances our understandings of reality and the Divine also change as they should. We no longer live in the dark ages and should not think as they did. We too must change.
The world is not some evil place but it does contain evil every bit as much as it contains good and holy.
Shalom
Mate
The Liberal
Posted on: 06/21/2009 22:58
I'll be honest with y'all. I don't really know what it means to be "Christ-like". Does it mean "meek and mild"? (Where did that conception of Christ come from anyway?). Or does it mean "rebellious and strong"? Or a bit of both, depending on the situation? (Well, that makes most sense, considering that we are talking about someone completely human... and humans tend to contain a great mix of things). Or, is the Christ not human? Sort of like "Buddha-nature"? I'm really out of touch with my mystical side at the moment... Currently, the seeking of justice if most prominent on my spiritual journey, but that was not always the case... And I definitely feel a strong yearning for the Presence of God/Christ/Sophia/The Holy in my everyday. So, I often call out "Maranatha" (come Lord Jesus), but perhaps I'm not patient enough to hear a response... or else, my children's needs burst in and mix up the moment... Although, I suspect, that is exactly where the Christ is for me right now: in the moment to moment neediness and noisiness of my kids. It's just not something I've found reflected in the stories told in Christianity, so, I guess it's confusing...
Anyway, sorry for the garbled rant... it's past my bedtime.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:03
Mate,
Maybe you don't watch the news outside your local area, this world is an evil place with some good trying to be done in it. Yes society changes but change in itself doesn't mean better. Also if society changes why to you does that mean our understanding of the Divine should diminish ? You are right in your statement that the world isn't headed for a mythical hell. That is because it is headed for a real literal Hell
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:12
Agnies
A good "rant". At this point in your life your children are probably the most important part. That does not mean one cannot make small steps.
Yes, both meek and mild, and rebellious. Whatever the situation requires. Just wait and things will happen. You may help some but things will come your way. Prayer is good.
Shalom
Mate
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:14
Mate,
As you should reject so-called Christianity. Most fundamentalists condemn themselves just by their title, they are stuck on the fundamentals and haven't matured. Generally they wield Bible knowledge and ritual as their righteousness, while living un-Christlike lives. True Christianity is not easy to follow or emulate. The Bible interprets itself and everything fits perfectly. People are mostly deluded by their own inability to grasp and exercise what God expects of us and end up wrongly judging God and the validity of the Bible because of the promoting of a "false" Christianity by greatly deluded individuals. I think if you asked Jesus to interpret it for you, you would have a good impression of Christianity.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:21
Melbatross7
I am up on world news and local news on a daily basis. I know what is going on in the world. But, I do see the good as well as the bad. The world has not changed in over 3000 years. It is all relative.
You are the one who has said that the Divine should diminish, not I. As our fund of knowledge and our conceptualization abilities change so does how we see the Divine. This does not deminish the Divine but makes the Divine even more real. Faith increases. It does not diminish. In Jesus day they thought as did Jesus that epilepsy was caussed by demon posession. We now understand where it comes from. The whole of human existence has been thus. When we ask most people today to believe in the Genesis stories of creation they simply laugh and turn away. That is a stumbling block to faith. We know that evolution is how the earth has developed.
If you choose to believe in satan as a real entity and in hell as a literal place that is fine with me. I do not. That like the creation stories is myth.
Shalom
Mate
The Liberal
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:24
Mate,
True Christianity is not easy to follow or emulate. The Bible interprets itself and everything fits perfectly. People are mostly deluded by their own inability to grasp and exercise what God expects of us and end up wrongly judging God and the validity of the Bible because of the promoting of a "false" Christianity by greatly deluded individuals.
Wow! That's so jam-packed of action I hardly know where to start?
Mind if I throw some questions at you? (I'm not being sacrastic, or anything, just really curious, btw.)
How do you know this? Where do you get your prespective? Are you part of a church? Mind if I ask what denomination? How do you arrive at your conclusions?
What is "True Christianity"? Where do you find it?
I think if you asked Jesus to interpret it for you, you would have a good impression of Christianity.
How do you do that? Jesus, the human who died, isn't around to ask. Jesus, the metaphysical/spiritual/Divine Christ has been understand and interpreted a million times over the centuries and in so many often totally conflicting ways. How do you make heads or tails of all that?
Nishy
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:29
Melbatross7
The Bible is not the absolute and inerrant word of God. It is a very human book, albeit inspired, made up of myths, legends, folk tales, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy, theology and there are some bits of actual history included throughout. It was written in an ancient Jewish style called Midrash which makes great use of metaphor. As such it has to be interpreted in that way if one wants to understand what the writers were intending. It also contains some letters by Paul and several ascribed to Paul but written by his disciples.
In interpreting the Bible it is possible to get many interpretations from the same passage and each will be equally as valid. They are the stories of our ancestors and they interpreted their walk with God. The Bible we have is thus interpretations of interpretations and then we add on top our.
Fundamentalism is a product of the late 19th cent. and does not go back to the early church of the apostles. Biblical inerrancy is an invention of the reformation.
Shalom
Mate
GRR
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:29
If so, can you describe the Christ that you don't want to be like.
Initial, trite answer - no need to describe that Christ. The so-called fundies/triumphalists/exclusivists, knowing him better, do a much more detailed job than I ever could.
In fact, Christians have so soundly rejected "that Christ" that it has brought low the entire institution of the church. That is not a "Christ" that I want to be like.
Actually, scratch the word "trite' above. That pretty much sums it up.
Mate
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:31
Agnies
Some good questions. I too would be interested in the answers.
Shalom
Mate
GRR
Posted on: 06/21/2009 23:40
Although, I suspect, that is exactly where the Christ is for me right now: in the moment to moment neediness and noisiness of my kids. It's just not something I've found reflected in the stories told in Christianity, so, I guess it's confusing...
Actually, those stories are there, they just tend to be left in the background, on hidden under the silly theatrics that many think of as more "important."
Consider the story of the "first miracle", the water into wine deal. Set aside arguments over the "reality" of it for the moment. For me, it has nothing to do with "Jesus' power". It has everything to do with a son going out of his way to please his mom. And a mother's pride at her son's ability. Think of the miracle as "and Mary got Jesus to play the piano at the reception and everyone was thrilled at his gesture" and you can instantly see the Presence of God in the everyday, can't you?
The four gospels are full of stories like that.
blackbelt
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:11
How do you do that? Jesus, the human who died, isn't around to ask. Jesus, the metaphysical/spiritual/Divine Christ has been understand and interpreted a million times over the centuries and in so many often totally conflicting ways. How do you make heads or tails of all that?
Nishy
I will be exalted in the earth.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:13
Mate,
I believe you see the world through rose coloured glasses. The world has changed immensly in 3000 years - any historian would call you blind ! To say it is all relative is to do nothing more than show your ignorance and lack of study into what you comment on.
You implied by your statement of change that the Divine becomes less. You state on one hand about the reality of the divine ,then immediately you state the whole as a myth.
In Jesus day they didn't know anything about epilepsy. Someone in modern day made that assumption to fit with human reasoning and possibility. When Jesus stated demons, He meant demons. A genetic condition can't be transferred to pigs that make them jump a cliff to their death(one example - many others)
The Genesis story is only a stumbling block to the faithless. Evolution is still a theory where many people are still trying to force pieces of the puzzle to support this theory. For instance the latest archealogical find of a prehistoric otterlike creature that is supposed to be a missing link to water and land creatures........we still have otters today that do the same thing, what about the duckbill platypus in Australia? All we see is a pattern of development that some scientists want to substantiate without God.
You can give no proof that the Bible is myth. There is much proof for it and nothing more than human reasoning against it.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/22/2009 00:50
Agnieszka,
I don't mind questions, infact I rather enjoy them....keeps me on my toes.!
I know this from extensively studying the Bible from within itself, which includes word studies, chronological studies, historical and style studies, study of individuals, geographical studies, prophetic studies and the use of many aids, commentaries, open debates on specific and general topics of every imaginable kind. This is over years of prayer, worship, application and an accumulating of my own personal empirical evidence which every Christian must accumulate to maintain a sound conviction and commitment.
True Christianity is portrayed in the Bible, God's Word - God's literal Word as recorded through the humans He dealt with. No one today has had the kind of contact that those individuals in the 2 Testaments had and doesn't openly contact us as He used to. Therefore it is easy to yield to doubt, rationalizing, and a general subverting of the reality of God.
At this point I will say nothing more about my Denomination and attendance other than that I am working to become a true Christian. Automatic assumptions will be made if I state that I am part of this or that group which could be used to undermine our real source and authority - God and His Word. As I have stated before, as soon as we put a human face to a group, we think that it is valid to judge who God is by the actions of that individual or group - ignore the individual or group ! God's Word is the stick we measure by. Once you understand what God states you then can judge for yourself whether this or that group or individual is following it. It is necessary to have a good understanding of the Bible. Our countries at one time were built on and existed by it.
Regarding Jesus - He rose to life as the Bible states. He is very much alive and offers a relationship with any that will hear and believe Him. If you apply yourself to sincere searching of truth and studying of His Word, you will find clarity. The Holy Spirit is present with us in His abscence to lead and guide us to much understanding and conviction so that there is good clarity on what is true. Ask Him as the Bible states and you will receive. Talk to Him like you would talk to anyone else(obviously respectfully), that is what prayer is - communication with God. I know who Jesus, the Holy Spirit and who God is because I've done the work to find out. We each have to do the same and not get side tracked by the mystical, ethereal, metaphysycal and barrage of foolish lies. When you do this you will have peace of mind and safety with God Himself.
As you appear to be sincere, I will pray for your understanding tonight - see what you can find.
Good night - Melba
Northwind
Posted on: 06/22/2009 01:28
Melba, are you suggesting that two testament writers had direct contact with Jesus?
seeler
Posted on: 06/22/2009 08:46
Melbatross - In the first chapter of Genesis in the Bible I read "God saw the world and it was good." That's good enough for me. God sees the world as good, and so do I.
seeler
Posted on: 06/22/2009 09:02
The Christ you DON'T want to be like? That is the question.
Well, I'm not sure what Christ is like. So I'll go back to Jesus. I try to follow the teaching and example of Jesus. I see Jesus as a man who had a particular strong relationship with God, a relationship so strong that afterwards as people thought about it they realized that they saw God in him. I see him as living among the poor and outcast, sharing their lives and showing them how to live in the kingdom of heaven in the here and now. I see him as growing in his understanding of God and his relationship not only with God but with others. And I see him courageously accepting that he stood a good chance of being killed for what he believed to be right. This is the Jesus I try to follow.
The Jesus I don't want to be like is the one sometimes portrayed by the early church - the Jesus who was judgmental, who was shown to be anti-semetic (he was a Jew himself - his followers were Jews - he wasn't trying to start a new religion). I don't like some of the words that he is said to have spoken - that seem so out of context with other things he said and the life he led that I question now whether he said them or whether they were added by the early church.
I like the Jesus who was cold and hungry, who was tired and discouraged, who wept in sorrow, who got impatient and angry, who drank wine and celebrated with his friends, who laughed and told funny stories about weeds that grew into big trees, and camels trying to get through small openings, who reached out to women and children, who shared his bread and his life, who changed his mind about God's message being for Gentiles as well as Jews, and who faced death with dignity and compassion instead of fear and hate. Who was not overcome by evil but who overcame evil with good.
Melbatross7
Posted on: 06/23/2009 01:06
Northwind,
Yes!!