Christianity has been used and abused by many in power over the centuries. Why would Hitler be any different? Just shows that anyone can use any scripture in any way they choose, which kind of makes chansen's frequently made point about not relying on 2000 year-old books that are subject to interpretation to guide our lives.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Hi Mendalla

 

You are so right anyone can use scripture -----so if we as people believe all who use scripture to obtain power positions because they think that by using God and the Bible the votes will pour in -----We as people listening to these people who are spouting religion  to my way of thinking should be cautious and aware that just because they speak God does not mean they are reliable in what they speak -----it creates distrust in believing the person is sincere -----------If the person is deceitful before he gets into a position --he will be deceitful in his position -----We as humans could not discern if the persons heart was in the right place or the wrong place -----there is only one person who could know that and that is God . The Holy Spirit would also know so born again people would have access to discernment

 

scary stuff in my view -----so a similar person like Hitler could arise again --deceiving using Christianity as a platform to gain success and we humans would buy into it -----

 

 

Oh I see born again Christians would be able to tell if the person in power was a true Christian or not. I guess your average joe Christian would be screwed then. You need to have special born again powers to discern an evil mind. Well that settles it then time to get me born again. I can almost feel my spidey sense tingling.

unsafe

Scary stuff for sure. A lot of the contents of that video I had never heard before. I've been reading articles at the bottom of the webpage.  The  Bonhoeffer video is very sad. Yes, we humans are followers, big time followers. We are trained to follow at school   from Junior Kindergarten up.

 

Its not quite the same topic but I remember a question that asked if we had a famine or major catastrophe  that required the gov't to exterminate people who would be the first people chosen to go. How would they be chosen re their credentials?  We could also ask how many of us would be willing to try and protect them, hide them, give them housing etc.?

 

(Hitler is a sensitive topic on the WC.  I remember Sylviac getting into trouble although I never saw what she actually posted or said that was construed as "hate" I believe.)

 

I was surprised to read and find myself agreeing with most of your thoughts until I came to these lines, the nulified it for me.  

 

You say 'there is only one person who could know that and that is God.'   Sorry - but God is not a person.  

But I believe that you are right in saying that God would know.   I believe that God is around us and within us, and knows us better than we know ourselves.  Yes, God would know what is in our hearts.  Since the Holy Spirit is identified with God - yes, I believe that the Spirit would know.

You also lose me when you claim that only some Christians would have access to discernment - those being the Christians that you identify with and consider to be 'born again'.    

I believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, is available to all people, and helps us to discern.   The Bible tells me "by their fruits you shall know them'.   and that one of the ways to recognize a Christian is by their love for one another.   So when I hear, or read, someone quoting the Bible and talking about being Christian, I watch for signs that they follow the way of Jesus, that they show love for one another and for their neighbours, and that they exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.  

Yes, we humans, with the guidance of the Spirit, can discern who is following the Way, and who is using religion for his own gain.  

 

 

God is three persons (Father, Son, and the Spirit of God) in one unique being.

 

 

That would depend on what you mean by "...within us..." True, God is omnipresent. At the same time, in a unique way, God is within Christians in the form of his Spirit. God alone knows what is within each human heart, although certainly we have a clue as to what is within each individual, as they reveal it through what they say and how they act. The Holy Spirit is God, so yes he does know our hearts.

 

 

Jae - I guess that there are different ways to define 'person'.   I am aware of people speaking of the Trinity as 'God in three persons'.  But I don't believe that the Bible speaks of God as a 'person', nor does the Apostles Creed.  

 

 

Yes, I guess you're right about the definitions of "person" seeler. I'm not sure if the Bible and the AC do actually mention God as a person. Now I'm interested in checking up on that.

Hi unsafe,

 

 

Not only is it possible.  I believe it is very common.

 

 

I don't score speeches based on shout outs to my favourite deity.

 

That said, when somebody brings God into the speech I pay particular close attention to the words/thoughts that person attributes to God.  It should go without saying that just because a person confesses a belief in Christ it doesn't follow that they understand Christ well or follow Christ that closely.

 

 

Hitler can be a Christian.  Nothing about him reminds me much of Christ.  Frankly he isn't the only "Christian" in history that I fail to see Christ in.

 

As to his challenge for people to love their neighbours.  It may be that he, like others in history, redefined what Jesus meant by that so that rather than the challenge being about loving folk in need it was more about loving folk who were not different from themselves.

 

The tough part about being a Christian is accepting that God could forgive even a Hitler.  It is really only so tough when we start playing games with what sin is and what sin does.  And the only high ground that matters, theologically speaking, is the grace of God and I don't control whom that is offered to.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi unsafe,

 

 

Possibly.

 

Is discernment a gift given to all who are Born Again?  Do those who are Born Again never make mistakes?  Ever?

 

 

Well, they wouldn't have to be all that similar to Hitler would they?  What if they weren't interested in being an Emperor they were content simply to be a celebrity?  What if they weren't interested in conquering other countries just emptying other's wallets?  What if they didn't have stormtroopers but a prayer ministry with operator's standing by?  What if, for example, they referred to themselves as Dr. when they had only been given an honourary doctorate?

 

Would we buy into it then?

 

I wonder.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Well as we've often heard, even the devil knows scripture and that God exists. All one has to do is gain that knowledge, tweak it a little so it sounds somewhat familiar and attach it to an agenda in order to make it seem legitimate. The best lies include elements of truth.

 

Another lie that we seem to fall for is that most wars are caused by religion, which has been proven to be false, yet we still hear this argument. It's far easier than looking at economic conditions, poverty, greed for resources or even a maniacs desire to create a perfect world economy and utopia based on his own conclusions.

 

Hitler seemed to have tapped into our apathy as well. Did he know the world would take forever to react? Perhaps he anticipated more resistence, instead of the lack of it? Even today, we watch as genocides are taking place in front of our eyes in the world and we think that "tweeting" our support or posting on facebook for those afflicted is enough to show resistence. This is us speaking out and that makes us feel like we are "resisting" evil.

 

Evil takes many forms and even a nation of atheists can have their ideoligies used against them by tapping into whatever is considered important and creating a fear that some "other" is going to take it away.

Hi Unsafe -- I watch your vid you posted on Hitler. I thought it terrible and yet very informed there are some things there I had not heard of. Yes many thought Hilter was the one spoken of as the anti christ. But they had forgotten to look for the signs that must proseed him.I believe also it would be easy for the beast to come forward today. So many Ministers are mixed up and don't  even know what there talking about. We even have Minister who stand in a church and say there is no GOD. We have Ministers running around saying Christ Jesus is not the only way to GOD. For GODS sake what kind of a Bible are they reading? ( Who is there GOD?) But the GOD of The Lord Jesus Christ has forseen this coming . So we who walk with Christ, have the Living Spirit of GOD in Us and  with Us.  We have His Book The Bible to help Us walk the path.  I have now, been on this earth a few years. It seems to me . It is not getting better but worse. I have walked the camps in Germany in tears . As a christain I understand it was only a shadow of what is to come. My belief is it is ready the signs now seem in place . I would say probabilty  Sooner than later.  May  The GOD of  Israel  an of Christ Jesus help us all.--airclean-Gord.

Loves that post, waterfall.  Especially that last part.  Theist or atheist, we're all humans with the same kinds of flaws.

 

Bingo. It is very interesting how often in Cosmos, Tyson shows us that major paradigm shifts happen in science when old paradigms have become almost matters of faith. Continental Drift was first hypothesized and researched early in the twentieth century but early theorists were almost always shot down because "we know the Earth doesn't work that way". And, yet, eventually it was realized that, in fact, it is a verifiable hypothesis. People might question the mechanisms behind it or how it affects certain other things, but continental drift itself is generally accepted.

 

So even in science, which should be somewhat immune to "taking it on faith", the problem of entrenched views and ideologies being used to suppress new ideas, and the misuse of accepted and entrenched scientific hypotheses and observations for ideological purposes, comes up time and time again.

 

Mendalla

 

Scientists are absolutely not immune to accepting things on faith. To the credit of science, faith in a hypothesis or theory is not a valid reason to accept either. Science does move along, regardless of how hard some scientists will dig in their heels.

 

In religion, accepting on faith is the default position.

 

Well, yes.  The difference is between faith as a pitfall to avoid, and faith as a virtue to promote.

*ahem* evolution *ahem*

waterfall - I want to congratulate you on your thoughtful post.

 

 

Evolution is a hypothesis that has withstood every test thrown at it. It makes predictions that can be, and have been, tested. It has explained things in a consistent way that lets us make additional predictions and formulate additional hypotheses. Yes, our understanding of the process and mechanism has, shall we say, evolved   but as a scientific hypothesis, it has stood up extremely well. Right up there with gravity and the atomic theory of matter.

 

Mendalla

 

Sounds like you're saying it's a hypothesis one can have faith in. I have yet to hear of macroevolution being duplicated in the lab.

Maybe we should put less importance on evolution (which I believe is true) and at this stage have more respect for our human limitations in relation to this world and the universe. Humble down a bit and quit pushing our luck.

Hi Dcn.jae-- By saying   macro evolution .Are you saying   Science hasen't proven it's own theory of evolution yet?.

 

I'm saying that if the theory of evolution went beyond being a theory, scientists should be able to dupicate macroevolution in the laboratory. That they haven't been able to, yet still accept the theory of evolution as truth, suggests that they are accepting thus on faith.

Artificial DNA has been created in a lab. But it required real evolved people with real DNA to create it. The origin of the building blocks of life started somewhere but I don't think we'll ever be able to understand all of it with certainty because pushing our boundaries too far is too dangerous and we are limited to our human senses. Maybe if we learned how to use more of the brains we were given and expand our state of consciousness we could. As long as we're looking at only data we won't. Still, we don't govern the laws of the universe.

 

No. That's not how science works. Testing a hypothesis =/= recreating a process in a lab. Testing a hypothesis means making predictions based on that hypothesis and then making observations to see if the predictions match the observations. That may involve experiments in a lab but it can also involve field work. Certainly, in astronomy, very little is recreated in a lab.

 

In the case of evolution, it is many little tests over the century+ since Darwin. For instance, Darwin found an orchid in Madagascar with a very long, narrow tube holding the nectar. He predicted that they would eventually find a creature feading on that orchid with a long tongue or probosicis. And, less than a generation later, they found a moth with a foot long tongue feeding on that orchid's nectar. Neil Degrasse Tyson used this story on an episode of Cosmos. That alone does not verify the hypothesis, but it is one of many successful predictions made using the theory and that sum total is what supports the hypothesis. And most evolutionary biology works that way. Look at an environment or an adaptation and then use evolutionary to make a prediction about that and then go looking for evidence to support or deny that prediction.

 

So, no, evolution is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of repeatedly testing and refining a hypothesis over many decades and having that hypothesis withstand that testing and refining. Much like Newton's Theory of Gravity, the Special and General Theories of Relativity, Atomic Theory, Quantum Theory, and so on. And that is how science works.

 

Mendalla

 

Right, and they came up with about 6 theories of how life naturally evolved from nonlife and named it abiogenesis. 150 years later they are starting to realize that they are much farther away from figuring it out than they first thought. One bacteria is about as complex as a city. There is not enough brain power in the world to make one - yet they will have you believe it came about by random chance.

The Mars rover has a better chance of finding a naturally occurring 1971 penny than a bacterium.

 

Hi seeler ---you say God is not a person to you ----I totally disagree with this --God is the Godhead of the trinity ---If the Holy Spirit is a person then God is a person ----this is what I personally believe ----John 16 :12-15 clearly clarifies this as Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as He in John 6 below ----the reason I believe that the 3 are persons is this ----God the Father --God the Son and the Holy Spirit all can speak --think --direct --convict ---counsel ---grieve ---sent out people to do their will ---

 

Trinity ----read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

 

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Lat., trinitas from the Lat. triad, "three"[1]) defines God as three consubstantial persons,[2] expressions, or hypostases:[3] the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature"

 

John 16:12-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

 

12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

 

You say that you feel all people who believe in God have access the Holy Spirit for discernment ---I also disagree with this ----anyone can call themselves a Christian ---people who believe in God can call themselves a Christian but not have the Holy Spirit ---so for me and the way I personally think I disagree with your believe ---we think different is all ---

 

The Bible is very clear that people without the Holy Spirit cannot discern spiritual things ----

 

So to get this we need to read 1 Corinthians 2 :10 -16

 

1 Corinthians 2:10-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

 

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

 

So in this scripture we read that we have not the spirit of this world in v 12 ----but the Spirit who is FROM GOD --so just knowing God doesn't give us the Holy Spirit ----that we might know the things that God gives us freely ----

 

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?"[b] But we have the mind of Christ.

 

You are entitled to believe what you want I personally believe that people who are Born Again ---have a better chance of discerning a bad spirit than a natural man without God's spirit ----

 

Peace

 

 

Imagine evolution in the mind of a round about crank that is different than charisma ... just a humble quark ... be-a-wolf in harry costume?

 

Sort of sheepish when uncovered as the unknown becomes known ...

 

One should pay attention to things the authorities tell you to deny ... like the unproven state of mind ... something you're encouraged not to think about ... liie what authorities do when the wee people are not questioning what the hei'Eire ups are doning behind the vernacular back sides ... possibly screwing "eLle out of the common people ... who've be encouraged not to recognize such things ... stew'þ idée is best ... rules for those that don't care to think about that hard spot the philosopher is in ... a thinking-Karen media ... almost anagramistic !

 

Is creative dangerous to the pious fixations as stopped up like eu noch'd and there was no response? In dogma Pisce in IT, that's the rule if you can't think otherwise ... outside the bo-ques ... suggested by the last verse of the Gospel of John .... not liked by those that dispise whispy ghosts of thoughts ... as Jared or Jarring ... converted in Anglo-Saxon to Red Hair Rings ... bloody folk-up's as human Aris if you didn't wish to make anything ... just join strings ...heavenly weavings where you think nothing, during the mind blow'n climax that brings you back to earth ... mire bounce from the impulse of sects? Something's goða make an aggressive man ponder life's purpose ... but if you can't read the icons of passion ... what then?

Simply its ... Nada, Nada, Nada ... nothing like it ... and no time to worry bou-tit the Janis bust ...

Titty-titty Bum boom or the ash seen as going ... well toasted ... the inquisitional way that went overboard ...

Nohing like a good lyre-ICH ... especially if you didn't know better to begin with ...as the powers hint at for the common folk!

 

Thus dumb po'ETHics ... so thoughts are stunned ... as well as shunned  ... in light of the condition we're in ...

 

Very Complex and disturbing to those that like it simple, or with all the sympathy turned towards the advantaged ... as if they didn't have enought ... leading to strange implications in life as it is ... or as simple as some would take  it ... some say the time has come to speak of various things (for those that take it all monotheistically). This creates varience ... or spectres ... multicoloured cloches ... cloaks?

 

Downright hairy ... no ... the world of myth and metaphor! Hoo dath unque IT?

unsafe - please give me chapter and verse that refers to God as a person.

 

 

 

Gen. 1:29, “And God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth…’”

Exodus 3:14, “And God said unto Moses, ‘I AM THAT I AM’: and he said, ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.’”

 

God refers to Himself as a person and speaks in the singular.  example above

 

 

sorry Unsafe, hope you dont mind I answered for you 

You are inducing that this voice cam from a person ... it is not determinate!

 

Why so many assumptions go astray in good's realm ...

 

IT is larger than you think and mostly unseen ... even unheard of by those that don't listen carfully ... to the whisps ...

 

Course many probably do not believe in their fine Ayres ...

 

For those interested ------

 

The Holy Spirit is a person, not a force

 

 

 

Sorry Blackbelt, but neither of those quotes show God as a person.   The fact that the awesome, creative, all encompasing God gives gifts to us human persons does not reduce God to being a 'person'.    And the claim of "I Am who I Am"  actually speaks of one who is not limited by definition.   God didn't say "I Am a person."   God said "I AM" and left the possibilities open.  

No.  When trust is earned, faith is no longer required, nor was it justified beforehand.

Pretty sure it actually has.  But you'd just re-define any example as "micro-evolution".

Hi Seeler this seem kind of funny to hear a Christain ask is GOD or was GOD a person. Would Matt1:23 help?--

 

Mat 1:23

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).

Thats right Seeler Jesus was GOD in flesh. For GOD to show Himself as a man  seemed to be no trouble for GOD. He talked to Abraham as a man. He talked to Adam as a man. When He was born in the body of Jesus He became a human being. As you and I . A Spirit in flesh. It may be you think of GOD as Spirit befor Christ and I would not say for sure your wrong. But after Christ Jesus I believe we have GOD with us. Today GOD dwells in every Christian that has recived Gods Holy Spirit.--God Bless.

 

what would you say a Person Is Seeler?  when you speak do you not refer to  yourself as in the 1st person singular?  why? because you are aware of yourself that you Exist. you are also aware that you have a will and are able to move your person according to your will. 

you are a small I AM, that makes you , a person, God is the same 

 

lets take a look at " I Am who I am" , or "  I will be that I will to be" translated from Gods personal name YHWH,   and lets break it down 

 

First part of Gods Name, First Person Singular God says " I",  God is aware of His esistance, that He "is", 

 

2nd part of Gods Name  ' Will Be", God is aware that His Person hood has a will , God is what God wills to be.  God by His will alone can move his person hood , same as you and I as created in Gods Immage. 

 

we are persons (i am ) because we are  created in Gods Immage the Great I AM. 

 

futhermore, God has Attribtues that God is aware of , 

 

Eternality      Mercy

Goodness       Omnipotence

Grace  Omnipresence

Holiness        Omniscience

Immanence    Righteousness

Immutability Self-Existence

Justice Sovereignty

Love   Transcendence  truth 

 

Going back to Gods awareness of His Personhood and will, Gods moves his attribtues according to His will alone . 

 

Bible also teachs that God Has Emotions, 

That God  is Personal 

that you can have a relationship with HIm 

 

all thouse makes God a person, same as us 

 

 

 

This whole "God is a person" thing is hilarious, but listing the God Attributes is just too much.

 

Also, you forgot "Jealous" and "Murderous".

 

As for God talking about himself in the first person, certainly there are other gods who do that. Now lots of gods are people! Let's get them together to do a group selfie.

 

Sweet. In that case I trust in Creationism.

Please do cite your examples.

Rich blessings.

Hi Chansen-- Your post--

This whole "God is a person" thing is hilarious, but listing the God Attributes is just too much.

___________________________

Airclean-- This is your thoughts Chansen. It is not a given fact.

____________________________

 

Also, you forgot "Jealous" and "Murderous".

_______________________________

Airclean--Now these facts I would like to see you prov . In that you don't even believe there is a GOD.Ha Ha

_________________________________

 

As for God talking about himself in the first person, certainly there are other gods who do that. Now lots of gods are people! Let's get them together to do a group selfie.

___________________________________

Airclean-- There are no other Living GODs. But the GOD of Christ Jesus only that is alive. Can you show proff on these other gods ,you believe in?You seem to feel perry sure there are as you have stated. Certainly there are other gods.

Airclean, any fictional character can have attributes. Superman can fly, maybe even better that Jesus can. Doesn't make Superman real.

 

And you're asking me to prove that God is a jealous god, like I claimed in my post? Oh, no! You've got me there! Except, oh wait, that's easy. Let me channel unsafe and paste scripture and pretend it matters:

 

 

Anything else I can Google for you?

 

Another case in point where we define God in man's image.

What, Christianity or deceit?

 

If biblical mythology and Christian dogma are taught as absolutely true, literal facts, then Christianity is deceit.

 

 

You do relies there is  good jealously right?

 

I’m jealous for my Kids 

What the hell does "jealous for my kids" mean?

 

Airclean - How do you rationalize the God of Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism? or the Islamic concept of God?  You believe in one God - but you can only get to it through Jesus?

 

chansen   your quote    What the hell does "jealous for my kids" mean?

 

This is a perfect example of -----1 Corinthians 2:13-15 ---spiritual discernment---which the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit ---they are foolish to him---Verse 14 -----

 

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?"[b] But we have the mind of Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

espically us Italians , we use that quote alot , meaning how much we love them 

That makes no sense. They're already *your* kids. You can be jealous of somebody else's kids. You can be jealous that your kids got chocolate for Easter and you got nuthin'.

 

But mostly, I can't find any reference for this except from Christians, seemingly attempting to make the "jealous God" thing look less crazy.

 

Also, I notice that even Airclean didn't try to argue that God is murderous. So why not list that among his attributes?

 

Oooh, and "petty".