Very Skeptic - I hear the pain that you have had in your life, and it seems that the church you are (were) attending is not helping you to deal with it.   Your profile does not tell us much about you.  What denomination was your church?

You see, there are many different ways of interpreting Christianity.  For me, it is a religion of love - God's love for us and our response in love for God and for others - love that surrounds you, supports us, uplifts you, affirms you. 

Now for your questions:

Why was religion created?      I don't believe it was created.  I believe that we are spiritual beings, capable of being in relationship with the Spirit of God.  This Spirit calls out to us, and we respond.  Religion is our way of responding.

How can I follow religion if I have only been hurt by it?     I would suggest that you 'shop around'.  Coming here to the Cafe was a first step.  You will learn about many different aspect of religion on the Cafe and, hopefully, you will learn that they are not all hurtful.  Then, if circumstances allow in your home situtation, start visiting other churches until you find one that preaches the love of God and you feel comfortable.

How can I get into heaven?   Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is at hand - live your life loving God and others, do what you can to help others, and don't worry about heaven.  Leave that to God.

Is God sorry for what happens to me?   God loves you, you are precious in God's sight.  When you hurt, God hurts.  God suffers whenever one of God's children is suffering.  Yes, God is sorry.

Who is causing me so much sadness, God or Satan?    That's a biggie.  Why do people suffer and why do some people seem to suffer so much more than others?  What causes it?   I don't believe that either God or Satan are causing your sadness.  Sometimes it is just circumstances - the way things happen.  It may be tied in with free will somehow - not just your free will, but free will of others, perhaps even those in a previous generation - that has put you in a difficult situation.

Will Satan love me if I'm evil enough?    No.   Satan is the embodiment of evil, the absence of love.

Will sex be my one way ticket to hell?    Sex is a wonderful gift with many benefits above and beyond procreation.   It is a way people bond together, express their love for each other.  It can be celebrated.    Or, it can be abused - and used to degrade and humiliate others. 

Is Sunday School brainwashing?   It depends on the Sunday School.  Some Sunday School's may appear to have all the answers and try to force them into children's minds.  Others encourage children to explore and ask questions and to develop their own faith, they give children opportunities to experience giving to others (making bread for the soup kitchen, or cards for sick classmates), they expose the children to stories of the faith and ask the children what they can learn from these stories.  They don't brainwash - they help each child to develop.  If your Sunday School didn't do this, you sould try to find another.

Hi Veryskeptic, and welcome to wondercafe.  This is a long list of questions for one thread, but I will try to give you my thoughts about each one.

Why was religion created?

In my worldview, it was created because human beings have an innate hunger for God, and a need to explain and celebrate life.

How can i follow this religion when i've only been hurt by it?

Sadly, many people have been hurt by the negative aspects of organized religion.  I would just remind you that there are many ways of being Christian. 

How can i get into heaven?

The afterlife is a major focus for some versions of Christianity, not so much for others.  I think it makes more sense to focus on transformation and what is possible in this life.  Heaven is in God's capable hands.

Is god sorry for whats happened to me?

I believe that God suffers when we suffer.  Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote in one of his books, "Christianity has given the world the idea of a God who suffers."

Who is causing me so much sadness, God or Satan?

Some sadness comes about because of the choices human beings make.  Some of it just happens.  I don't know what you have experienced in your life, but you might like Kushner's book, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People".

Will Satan love me if im evil enough?

Whatever concept you hold of Satan, Satan is not a loving force.

Will sex really be my one way ticket to hell?

Nope.  But there is a lot to be said for sex in the context of relationship which honours you and your partner.

Is Sunday school brainwashing?

As I know Sunday School, in the United Church which sponsors this website, it is not brainwashing.  If you have attended one which has been teaching you "new ways of going to Hell", as you said in your opening post, I might have some concerns about it.

Enjoy your explorations, Veryskeptic.  I would suggest waiting to see how much response you get on this thread.  If there is one (or more) of your questions you would like to discuss more fully, try starting a new thread for each one.  The conversation can be more focussed that way. 

Hi, you've recieved some good answers here. I'll just add that you should search for a church that helps you to build a relationship with God and others. What you've encountered from others at the church you've been attending has done neither. (or possibly you're just talking to the wrong people at your church) I gather you've been somewhat turned off ?

What I will often do is if  anyone says something to me about God I will look into the bible to see if there is any basis or scripture for what they are saying. But then you have to learn how to understand the Bible which isn't always easy because as you've learned some will apply different interpretations. Seek out those that reflect what Jesus teaches for advice. Kindness, compassion, understanding and a  peace in their heart and a real desire to share that with you.

God's purpose isn't to scare you off  he wants you to have the best life that you can have and to be blessed in it.

Stick around wondercafe too. There are lots of seekers amongst us, myself included. 

Greetings!

A lot of good answers from both seeler and paradox 3.  And I'm sure you will find over the next few days that there will be others that will also address your questions and offer some help and hope.  Like waterfall says, perhaps checking in on Wondercafe, asking questions, posting your thoughts, etc. might be of a bit of help too.

You will find a lot of different view points on religion, God, life, heaven, hell, sin, etc. here on Wondercafe.  Some posters will be Christian and have a variety of Christian veiwpoints from one end of the scale to the other.  Some posters will be of a different faith/religion than Christianity and share their faith with you.  Some posters will have no belief in God at all.  Like I say, a lot of different view points.  There are a lot of ways and means for you to find out who and what God is to you . . . reading, studying, learning, praying, talking to others, going to church, etc.

It sounds like you have been hurt and disappointed by a  lot of people - those in your life and some of those you have encountered within the church.  In our human relationships, that can always be a possiblity.  But as for God, I believe God loves you (and me . . . and everyone) right where you are, just as you are - completely, totally, unconditionally.  God, God's love, and presence in our lives does something wonderful . . . it enables and helps us to learn and grow and change and become whole.

Much encouragement to you to as you seek to find God, know God, and let God into your life.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

The eternal Why questions...

My guess, for the same reason you are asking the questions that you ask.  The need to find answers to, perhaps, the unanswerable why's of life.

You may not be able to but before you abandon it totally you need to discover what caused the hurt.  Was it the teachings themselves or the way others applied them?  The answer to that will help determine your future path.

I will leave that to the scholars on this site since I have no road map to give you.

I believe that God always grieves with us.

I believe that only humans cause each other sadness and hurt.  God provides avenues for comfort and solace and each of us needs to discover those avenues.

As someone who believes that Satan exists only in the hearts and minds of mankind, I can only ask why you think you need an answer to that particular question.

Only if you allow others to convince you that it is.   If the goal is only to obtain sex I will hazard to guess, based on experience, that it will become hellish but if you see sex as part and parcel of the expression of love for another then it will become heavenly.

Again it would depend on what was occurring in the Sunday School room.   Personally I found kindergarten a far greater experiment in brainwashing and my experience with Sunday School was that we sang songs and coloured pretty pictures of lilies.  Now this may explain my continued love of pretty flowers and knowing all the words of Jesus Loves Me - which may or may not be a good thing - but there has been a lot of other information and experiences since then that shape who I am.

Without sounding like the old fogey I am, I suggest that while you may be young and may think that you have no control, you actually do have the power within yourself to discover your own path but you must open yourself to possibilities, try not to project past hurts or others' perceptions and continue to search for the information you need to answer your why's of life.

LB

Turning from you, I dared to seek something that seemed to me to be more intellectual than faith, more certain than hope, and sweeter than love. Who is more foolish than me...

A Canticle for Leibowitz

Hi Very Skeptic. I am 18 and I was driven from Christianity from a similar experience. Things can only get better from here, but only if you are willing to explore your beliefs and understand the reasoning behind the belief system you have been told to believe in. Asking questions is a good first step.

From what I've gathered, it seems that the earliest civilized humans had many questions about the world they lived in, and needed answers. These questions were answered using supernatural beings. Most of the earliest religions were polytheisms and it has been theorized that each god in the pantheons originally belonged to one family and when a bunch of families formed a civilization, they combined their gods together into one pantheon. The Mesopotamians had thousands of gods, for example.

Religion is just one way of trying to answer life's questions. Another way is philosophy. I prefer to use philosophy because it requires the use of reason in order to answer questions. There is a higher standard for what is considered the truth, especially in the sciences.

If your current religion hurts you, then you have two options. You can either change your religion or choose not to follow any religion. Christianity was originally formed to make people happy and if you are not happy in it then you should just leave, like I did.

This question assumes that there is even an afterlife. There is no evidence to suggest that there is or isn't an afterlife. Nobody has any authority over what will happen after we die. Just this life like it is the only one you will ever have. Don't waste this life by working for another one, which you are not even guaranteed.

Is god a conscious being? Is god even real? What is the nature of god? I can assure you that if there is a god then it is not the one you have been told to believe in.

The god you believe in, Yahweh, is a fictional character. So is Satan. They are a part of the Jewish mythology. They are metaphors. If you want to know why you are sad, you are going to have to look at your own life. Look at the people in your life. You might even have to look at yourself.

No. Satan is the personification of evil temptations. In the Jewish mythos, he made people do bad things because he wants the world to burn. He uses people, he doesn't love them. Don't do bad things just to be happy, that will only make you feel worse.

No. Sex is not automatically evil, even if it's outside of marriage. To deny ourselves of our most primal temptations is to deny that which makes us human. Some Christian circles condemn sex because it is an animal instinct and they think that we are beyond animal instinct. The truth is that we are not beyond animal instinct. We eat, we sleep, we go to the bathroom. We do not deny ourselves of these urges, even though they are primal, animal insticts. Embrace your animal heritage.

Technically yes. Technically all education is brainwashing. Brainwashing is not necessarily a bad thing though. Sunday school specifically can be a bad thing but it depends on the church you go to. In my church, Sunday school didn't teach my anything of value and I found it very apathetic. I barely remember any of it. I don't consider that to be evil, but I do consider it to be inadequate and useless.

 Hi Very Skeptic:

I'll respond to some of your questions.

• Why was religion created?
• How can i follow this religion when i've only been hurt by it?

Don't follow the religion - follow Jesus - everytime I get irritated or hurt by alleged "Christians" I go back and read the Bible and realize that the people often aren't like Jesus.

• How can i get into heaven?

Who the hell cares about heaven?  The Bible is pretty clear - Heaven is coming to earth - read Matthew 4:17

• Is god sorry for whats happened to me?

One constant theme in Jesus' parables is this - if you don't treat your neighbour well, then you don't know God.  Simple as that.  So yes, I believe that God is sorry that you've had to put up with bigots.

• Who is causing me so much sadness, God or Satan?

Isn't it your body?  Your mind?  You feeling sad?  Why does it matter whether it's God or Satan?

• Will Satan love me if im evil enough?

Hahahahahahaha I love these questions.  Satan and love...interesting.  I only thought that Satan fed off loneliness and tried to exploit.

• Will sex really be my one way ticket to hell?

The Bible proclaims God as the Creator of All.  I think God gets angry when people do stupid things, but sex is hardly a scandal to worry about.  Most people have sex in their lives.  So is everybody getting this one-way ticket to hell?

• Is Sunday school brainwashing?

I doubt it - I mean many Sunday schools offer garbage - like nothing worth wasting your time on.  I mean, really, if we're talking about enculturation (assimilating into the practices of a culture) then it's hardly brainwashing.  I think Sunday school is a time when children should be taught an alternative story to that which mainstream culture provides.  The story the church provides should be a bit more risky and risque than the one you grew up engaged in.  I didn't grow up in a church like yours, but I'm already tired of hearing about the hellfire you were raised in.  Obviously somebody there needs to take a course in how imagery is used in the Bible.

Hi Very Skeptic,

Ouch.  I can understand why you would find Christianity difficult to believe in if that is all you hear.  Are you always going to the same Church or do you hear these new ways of going to hell no matter which Church you enter?

One is often inclined to think that one church is just like any other.  Most people who have tried a few out realize that just isn't so.

Seriously?  To be frank I can't believe that there is any scripture in the Bible that makes anyone responsible for the death of another unless it is the few verses dealing with striking someone.

You also report that this is an understanding that you came to on your own.

I cannot stress how much I think you have made an error in interpretation and had nobody nearby who could show you where or how you went wrong.  It is bad enough having other people invent new ways for you to go to hell without you pitching in and inventing new ways yourself.

And you think that the relationship between Christianity and hardship is causal and not coincidental?

Religion is a system which exists to set boundaries of belief and behaviour.  It is created by people like you and I and functions to keep like minded individuals working in concert with each other.  It sets up external standards in an attempt to keep people like you and I from having disagreements and going all postal because of them.

Sometimes it isn't as effective as we would like it to be.

It isn't the religion that has hurt you so much as it is the ones who steward that portion of the tradition.  Any religion appears on a continuum between extreme positions.  Either extreme, be it liberal or conservative, will demonstrate an unhealthy level of intolerance and outright hatred of those who disagree with them.  When that happens condemnation flies fast and furiously.

A more moderate expression of the religion will likely be more gentle than what you are used to.

There are a lot of answers to this question.  They depend upon the theological construction held by the individual.  It isn't as easy and answer as some would lead you to believe.

God's tears flow before our own can begin.  Be it for reasons of joy or sorrow.  I believe God is concerned for what has happened to you.  I don't know that God is sorry so much as I believe God would be ashamed for what other Christians have done to you.

It isn't so easy as that.  We create a lot of our own misery.  I don't think that God or Satan had anything to do with you reading scripture and coming to the belief that you were responsible for the death of your adoptive father.  That is how you have made sadness for yourself.

God would like for you to see that scripture in another way.  Satan is probably happy that you are content with the interpretation you have accepted.

I think God can grab somebodies attention and it can be not so pleasant.  In fact, I've had my attention grabbed and I would have much rather had it turn out that I had lost my mind.  The initial shock passes and after a while the initial lack of pleasantness fades and you are just happy to know that God noticed you.

A lot depends on what comes next.

Nope.  Satan's big problem is ego.  Satan couldn't love you because that would detract from his ability to love himself.  To be on his team you would have to forget about loving yourself and commit fully to loving him.  Even then, you would be expendable.

Not likely.  Treating sex casually can make your life feel like hell.  Respect yourself and respect your partner and you should avoid making the mistakes that will cause you much pain and sorrow.

Well it would be social conditioning.  As far as brainwashing goes the United Church of Canada probably sucks at it otherwise we'd have our stepford babies cranking out even more stepford babies and our pews would be full.

We all need help to some degree or another.  You'll get a lot of answers here but it will be up to you to sit down with them and see which provide help and which are more of what has been pushing you down.

At any rate all questions are welcome here and there are more than a few who would be very happy to toss some answers your way.

Don't just accept those answers and move forward from there.  Put the answers to the test.  Make sure that you are getting some serious, solid thought for your questions and not just conditioned responses.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Very Skeptical

Welcome.  I too am new here in the past few weeks.

I too as well as my family was hurt by a particular Christian denomination.  The story is full of pain which my mother took to her grave.  However, I and my family left that "cult" and I began a 45+ years of searching and study (can't believe I made it to 65) and I have arribed at the point where I am both a Christian and a pluralist.  My profile gives some details.

You have received some excellent advice here.  There is probably a lot to add but to cut it short.  I am a member of the Anglican church where I live and I have never been in a more "Kingdom" like church in my entire life.  This is not to say that other such churches in most denominations have similar communities.

In Matt. 22 Jesus tells us to love God and our fellow man and says they are the greatest of all the commandments.

In Matt. 25 Jesus tells us to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit and care for those ill and in prison.

In Micah 6:8 we are admonished to "do justice, Love Compassion and walk humbly with our God.

I do hope this and what others have said help.

Shalom

Mate

Hi Very Skeptic:

You can always go to a different church, and from hell to heaven.

In my church, they don't tell us that we'll go to hell, they tell us that we are in heaven.

First things first:  I am so sorry to know that you have suffered spiritual abuse within a church.  As I understand it, when church is done 'right', it's supposed to be a place where all people find safety for their heart, mind, emotions, body and soul.  It sounds like you obviously didn't receive the safety that God wants all churches to offer, and my heart goes out to you.  For what it's worth, as a Christian who really tries to provide a place of safety, I'm truly sorry for what you have suffered at the hands of people who seem to have 'missed the point' of Christianity.

Second thing:  I love writing but I have terrible computer skills, so please bear with me, if the layout of my response looks haphazard (it's my first experience with copying & pasting on this site!  lol)

• Why was religion created? 

As you've read in other replies, religion was developed over time by fallible human beings in an effort to understand the universe. 

• How can i follow this religion when i've only been hurt by it? 

Your question seems to reflect the heartbreak that you have suffered within the context of the church of which you've been a part.  As a teenager, my parents took me to a church where I experienced a tremendous amount of heartbreak, and reading your post reminds me of that vulnerable time in my life.  

One thing that helped me was to identify the way I'd been treated as spiritual abuse.  What you have encountered within your church was cruel -- it's NOT what should happen in church.  Just like how abuse of any type occurs within some human families (while other families are warm and caring and free of abuse), a good number of churches are not abusive.  You have been subject to spiritual abuse in the guise of Christianity.  Call it what it is.

In the meantime, please don't write off the rest of us Christians who are more careful and ethical in how we treat other people.  I'm a Christian, and I strive to do my part in bringing healing and comfort to all people.  Of course there are times when I fall short of my lofty goal, but I'm not scared to apologize and make amends when I've inadvertently hurt someone's feelings.  I take responsibility for my actions, for how I treat people.  The thing is, there are a lot of Christians who live their lives in the same thing and WE are why you should give Christianity a chance.

With some searching, you will find Christians who exercise compassion and ethics in their daily lives, and you will be nurtured and healed.

• How can i get into heaven?

As John (aka revjohn) has said above, there are a myriad of theological constructs to answer this question.  Yes, this is a vague answer, BUT THAT'S A GOOD THING!  It's good because of this:  as Christians, we get to use our God-given minds to find out the answers to many questions.  Theologic constructs are human systems of belief that try to explain God and all things God-related.  Basically, this means that (despite what you may have been taught), Christianity is NOT a 'one-size fits all' proposition.  There are so many varied ways of understanding and expressing Christian faith.  Thus, there are lots of answers as to how one gets into heaven -- the good news is that you get to find the answer that best fits with how YOU understand God.   That's the whole point with Christianity:  it's YOUR relationship with the Holy One.

• Is god sorry for whats happened to me? 

To use the short answer:  Yes.  I like what revjohn said that 'God's tears often flow before our own can begin'.

• Who is causing me so much sadness, God or Satan? 

I believe that sadness in caused by living in an imperfect world, and that the sadness you have suffered has been perpetrated by imperfect human beings.  God is the one who wants to heal your broken heart.  There are people on this site who could better help you understand the passage of Scripture that led you to believe that you caused the death of your adoptive father.  Please think about writing a post about that particular passage, and I KNOW that there are many kind people here who would help you to see a more balanced perspective of that piece of Scripture.

• Will Satan love me if im evil enough? 

Satan isn't capable of love.

• Will sex really be my one way ticket to hell?

I was told similar things when I was a teenager, and the short answer to your question is 'NO'.  Even my father, who was quite the Bible Thumper in his day, says that we can't DO anything that earns us free admission in hell, sex included.  I agree with dear old Dad on this one.  My father believes that sex outside of marriage is wrong, but this is where I exercise my rights to study and choose the constructs of Christianity which best fit God as I understand her/him.  I have studied and I DON'T agree with my Dad's views on sex.  That's the thing, I can still be a Christian (just like my Dad is a Christian), but we don't have to agree or believe the exact same things.  This is YOUR faith; not anyone else's.  fyi, I believe that  having sex with people who don't love and honour you can be hell-ish, but you won't wind up IN hell!  In my understanding, there are three requirements for sex: Compassion, Fidelity, and Responsibility.  I'll outline my little blurb about each of these principles for you.  (Again, remember that these three principles are the Christian principles that I have chosen to be my 'rules' when it comes to sex.)

1.  COMPASSION:   When you share your body and heart with someone who deeply cares for you, someone who realizes that you are a precious creation made in the image of God, sex is deeply meaningful and heaven-like in it's beauty.

2.  FIDELITY:  As I understand it, I think sex should only happen between two people who are committed to each other.  By this, I mean that both people are devoted to being respectful and faithful to each other. 

3.  RESPONSIBILITY:  It is essential that both people take responsibility for safety and contraception/condom use.  As well, both partners need to take responsibility for how they treat the mind and heart of the other.  This means that, whenever I have sex, I must remember that I hold my partner's heart in my hands.  Thus, I need to take responsibility for the things I say to my partner, etc.  I am responsible for avoiding any actions that might break my partner's heart.

• Is Sunday school brainwashing? 

Not if it's done 'right', meaning that Sunday School should be a place where children are encouraged to explore their thoughts and feelings about God without condemnation or judgment.

Well, I hope that my answers are helpful; if they aren't, please remember that I am speaking to you with a heart full of compassion.  Hopefully, the compassion will make up for any short-comings.  I'm glad that you've joined the cafe, and I'm glad that you've asked your questions.  Keep asking.

Hi Very Skeptic. KillerRabbit's answer is probably more useful to you than mine will be as he has been through the catholic church and I haven't, but here's my two bits as a born and raised non believer.

Well Killer allready answered why religion was created: to answer unanswerable questions. But it didn't take long for the powers that were at the time to realize this was a pretty good way of controlling people for their own gain and this continues today.

Hurt by the religion you've been raised in: sounds like you need a new religion. I would recomend taking time out and letting it come to you naturally, what you believe and don't believe. Who sais you have to follow the religion that's hurting you!  What you believe is yours, and yours alone. None of any one else's business.

Heaven: is a place on Earth. Heaven is within you. Heaven is when you feel it, in love, in joy, in enlightenment. In my opinion, it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Is God sorry for you/anyone. I don't believe in a sentient God. I just don't think there is such a thing, and never did. I do think though that God is within you, and that humanity is connected. Let the God within you care for you, feel concerned for you, for yourself. Love yourself.

The church is causing you this sadness, the pressures that force you to be part of it. I recomend stepping back from it, with respect, and know that you need to live your own life, and your spirituality is the most personal, private thing you have. Don't let anyone push you around in your spirituality.

Will Satan love you? It can feel good to be bad, but watch how much bad you do, don't do more than a healthy ammount! ANd remember that you need your own love of self most of all. Don't do anything that feels wrong inside. Make your own choices, and don't regret them.

There's nothing evil about sex, don't punish yourself for natural feelings of arrousal, or enjoyment of it. We are animals, but spiritual ones. And sex can be spiritual too. Treat it as special and tender, not evil or wrong. Be intimate and most of all, be loving. There is no hell but the ones we impose upon ourselves.

Yes sunday school is brainwashing. Rise above it! If you can't not go, then be distant in class!

16 is an exciting age. I hope you have a good year. You sound like a really nice guy! You've done the right thing coming here to ask questions. Go to the library too, lots of good stuff to be found there. Good luck! I'm routing for you!

Hi very skeptic. Here is my advice. Do not follow religion....pursue a relationship with God.

What is a healthy amount of "bad"?

welcome,

man o man I would run from that church also, there are 2 ways one can use the bible

1) Gods way to give spiritual life and liberty to people

2) mans way to hit people over the head with in the hands of a pastor who’s not listening to God,

the bible can be used destructively in the hands of a good pastor who is listening to God, the bible can and does Give life and freedom and healing. how will you know whos whos, Trust only God as you read, if your heart is true and wanting, God will reveal the truth and the truth will set you free.

Once in a while it's good to be bad. Everything in moderation.

Hi Very Skeptic and welcome

The church you tell of is not a nice place and not one where I would feel very happy either.  Christianity is teaching of God's love for us and his Grace to keep loving us.  He loves us because we are us. You don't need to do a thing to get Gods love.

That is a pretty amazing thing and I am sorry that the church you attend has forgotten about the love of God.

As a teen you may have difficulty removing your self from that poisonous atmosphere especially if your parents feel that way. 

You came to a UCC site to discuss this, but you haven't been back.  I can only hope that you continue to read and listen and see that God is not what you have been told

What is considered bad? Rape and murder are bad. As long as they are done in moderation, it's ok?

What a ridiculous question.  Evangelicals always, always, always go to the extreme example.  That would be an hyperbole, if it weren't true.

You're funny cf. Rape and murder aren't moderate forms of "bad", they are extreme. I was talking about little things.

I wasn't trying to be funny. What little things are you talking about? "Moderate" forms of "bad" are a lot different than doing "bad" things in "moderation."

I knew you would not be too far behind there Gilmore. Laying in wait were you? Like a stalking lion ready to pounce on any little thing an evangelical says. You think anything an evangelical says is rediculous, no surprise there.

CF, there's just no arguing with you.

Why not?

Skeptic,

As a former christian, and a 16 year old, here are some answers you might find useful, and straightforward.

Why was religion created?

Religion was "created" by people WAY back because they had no way of explaining things (Like storms) so they thought OMG there must be something bigger and more powerful than us! Holy crap we better do something for it before it gets really pissed at us!!

How can I fallow a religion thats only hurt me?

You can't fallow a religion that hurts you in my opinion. However, many have proven me wrong on this.

How do I get into heaven?

Knock? *Bursts into song* Knock knock knocking on heavens dooooooooorrrr....

Is God sorry for what's happening to me?

umm... Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that almost everyone in here will say Yes he is, while i'm going to say no, he's probably worrying about world hunger and war.

Who is causing me so much sadness, God or Satan?

Hell if I know. Both are pretty apt at causing pain.

Will Satan love me if i'm evil enough?

Being Satanist i'm biased on this one. No. Satan loves those who serv him, not those who are just evil. In my personal opinion Satan loves those who he feels are deserving. Being evil probably isn't enough.

Will sex be my one way ticket to hell?

If so then the human race is going to hell because we've been having sex since we where created. It's an instinct, not a sin.

Is Sunday School Brainwashing?

For me it was, but there are some who find it enlightening. It's all about your opinion. Actually, It was a fun game for me when I went to find loopholes in what they where saying.

So there you have it. My opinions, and guarenteed someone in here is gonna smack me around for them, but hey what the hell. I'm used to it. Sorry to hear about your dad btw.

Shadow

Wow Shadow, you're a Satanist? Sorry, this is news to me. I guess you know about the Yadizi, in Iraq, worshipers of the Peacock Angel? They say Shaytan is the real source of all, and the only one that needs to be praised regularily to keep the world in order. I'm surprised Consumingfire hasn't jumped on you for it. Can't say I know anything about Satanism. Perhaps you'll enlighten us at some point. Wasn't Billy Corgan of SMashing Pumpkins a Satansit? I guess your Satan is different from CF's Satan. That's quite a label to stick on yourself.

Meh.

I am however honoured that you picked me Elanorgold.  Very honoured indeed.

Satanists do not worship satan.  lol.  I hope I can explain this because it irks me.  It's a very misconcievable name, but a satanist believes that they are their own God.  It's selfishness incarnate.  Satan refused to obey God because of being self-centered, so the title is refering to his attributes of selfishness, and thinking only about himself, not his "I'm evil fear me mwahahaha".  Although selfishness can lead to a lot of evil.

Most religions:  Love all.

Satanism: Love yourself.

Jedi: Love all

Sith: Love yourself.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

I think Shadow said that she believes in Yahweh and Satan though. LaVey Satanists, which Shadow claims to be, are atheists, aside from believing that they are god. There are Satanists that are literally Satan worshippers, but they are not the LaVey Satanists so I don't think Shadow can be a LaVey and worship Satan at the same time.

Hello everyone God bless you....

Hi sceptic....there isnt much more I can add to the wisdom already given to you...what I would say ...is what someone else here has said...seek out being Spiritual.....following Christ is a Spiritual walk...not a religious one....learning all about Christ I believe is the first step in following Him...

All of us have sadness , suffering and trials in our lives...that is the way the world is ...no one is free from this ....but with Gods help we can make it through the rough times...with prayers blessings and love...Gods Purpose in the First Place was to Love us and Teach us what He , Himself is...So we could be Like Him...happy, loving, joyous, healed, wise and knowledgable...just some of the things He Offers...

Gods wonderful blessings upon you as you seek your way Spiritually....

IJL:bg

Sadly skeptic isn't back.

But I enjoyed reading everyones ideas

Hi lastpointe: Maybe Very Skeptic is not very skeptical any more. Wondercafe worked wonders and made him (her?) into a believer.

I better look up his (her?) profile!

I just did, and found out he's male and under 18.

Well, one has to be skeptical under 18.

So do Omni. Some Satanists do worship Satan and believe he is an actually entity. Others like Shadow may not, as LaVey Satanism is quite different. You are right when you say that LaVey type Satanism believes that people are their own gods however.

Somebody has been screwing with your head.

Try looking at it this way:

a) Human consciousness is limited; most of what "is" lies way outside its boundaries.

b) You are stuck with your bit of human consciousness; you can't leave it, you can't look at it, you can't understand it, you know everything you know through its filters. Nobody on this planet has a way of stepping outside their personal consciousness and its limited capacities. Suck it up.

c) The BIG BIT of "out-there" type reality is a total mystery to you, to me and to everyone else and always will be because as a species we are finite little minds facing what might — for all practical purposes — be considered an infinite universe.

d) Are you going to go mad with terror or are you going to learn to TRUST the mystery (why not? it's better than the alternative and it's the mystery that got you into the existential hole you're in in the first place: why not trust it?)

e) The great religions are culturally specific ways to help you learn the trust you need to get along in a way that makes the most of your humanity.

BUT REMEMBER:

f) the moment a religion diminishes the mystery by making particular, exclusivist statements about the nature of the mystery, of "god", it invalidates its only reason for existence (which is to help you find a balance between your consciousness and the mystery, and live healthily with that). A religion can only be a touchstone, never a destination.

g) there is more bullshit in the world than you can ever possibly shake a stick at; shaking sticks at it gets to be a hopeless, brain-deadening preoccupation. I know; I did it a lot, I can no longer be bothered.

h) I know nothing.

Hi Mike: It all depends how we define "consciousness."

If the pure, unthinking, unconceptualized, subjective experience of reality—an experience that we expereince in babyhood and in states of deep meditation and other altered states of consciousness—is regarded as an experience of primordial consciousness or truth, and the conceptualization or objectification thereof as a relative, artistic creation, then we are looking at two diametrically opposed types of consciousness or truth: One synthetical (pertaining to synthesis), the other analytical. One intuitive, the other logical. One subjective, the other objective. One absolutely true, the other relatively or artistically true. Although we should get to know and practice both, the thing to strive for is a balance betweeen the two.

The synthetical consciousness is absolutely true. Without conceptualization or objectification, however, this absolute, subjective truth is no more than an ineffable experience, a mystery. But, being the analytical beings that we obviously are, we analyze and conceptualize the msytery. This is necessary, and fine and good. We have, however, to constantly remind ourselves that our conceptualizations are artistic creations, and that only the unconceptualized experience is absolutely true.

We are creating better and better interpreations of the myster—individually, and collectively. What helps us to create ever better interpretations is to frequently delve into the pure experience of the absolutely true, unconceptualized reality: The cosmic mystery in its original purity, also known as God.

In Zen Buddhism, one acts directly and intuitively from that experience, thereby bypassing conceptualization. But we humans have evolved the capacity to think logically; it is our species-specific quality, and for a good reason, so we better us it, wisely and creatively.

Zen Buddhism may be one-sidedly synthetical, but we Westerners tend to be one-sidedly analytical. The wise approach, as I said, seems to be the balance between the two.

("We," of course, is a figure of speech. I'm speaking strictly on my personal behalf, aided by frequent excursions into the mystery  )

Nicely said you guys. Perhaps westerners practicign zen buddism is the way to go. I also had a glimpse into the unconceptualized reality by having a baby. I watched him closely to see what I could learn. Before he was born I payed close attention to my dreams and what they could reveal, then after I watched him staring unfocused out into the world soaking in the colours and shapes and being such a new thing, not even aware that he is a separate entity yet. It was fascinating and educational.

Hey guys!

Sorry haven't been here in a while. Ok here goes.

Elanorgold,

I have no idea for certain who else was or is a La vey satanist other than mister La Vey satanist.

CF has jumped on me for it in a previous thread. But i don't blame him.

My Satan is VERY different from his. But i won't get into that.

Omnissah (And KR for the last bit)

Love the Jedi Vs. Sith thing. lol

Yes most tend to see themselves as their own god, but I don't. Think of it like when the Christians split with the Jews. The Jews don't believe that Jesus was the savior. They have different beliefs, and I have different beliefes from the La Vey satanists, but it's not like a 16 year old can go and form her own religion. I chose to pick the one that was closest to what I believe.

Very Skeptic, Hi.  I can identify with your struggle because I came from a similar situation.  The church I attended as a child was very 'black and white' in it's theology.  'Good' people went to church: 'Bad' people did not.  'Good' people went to heaven: 'Bad' people went to Hell.  It was a strict, legalistic, but not fundamentalist view of God.  God was just looking for ways to 'get you' and send you to Hell.  This same congregation was known to chew up ministers and spit out the bones (non-literal, of course).  When I left high school and went to University, I became an agnostic.  I didn't particularly believe in God, but I didn't disbelieve in Him either.  I enjoyed a few years of sitting on the fence but the emptiness didn't go away.  I came to realize that I had thrown out the baby with the bath water (again, not literally).  The central question in any theological discussion within 'Christendom' is, "Who is Jesus Christ?" .  Very little of what happens in some churches has anything to do with God's love through Christ.  I had never understood love because I'd received a lot of abuse as a child and adolescent.  (At age 5, I had a Sunday school teacher smack me across the mouth for asking a question.  She thought I was being a 'smart alec'.)   When I started my search, I had to 'flush' a lot of garbage from the past and start fresh.  Mankind's love is conditional, even in Churches.  God's love is unconditional and offered freely.  Open yourself to His love and commit yourself to the journey.  Seek out and associate with people who love rather than judge.  Above all, forgive anyone who has wronged you.  (This was tough for me, because I always got even.)  Set your own course and move forward.  You'll be pleasantly surprised with the end result.  Blessings to you.

Hi Shadow, that is fine, but the fact that you are not an atheist should mean that you are not a LaVey Satanist. If you actually worship Satan then you are, by definition, a Christian Satanist. LaVey Satanists and Christian Satanists are completely different; LaVey has absolutely nothing to so with Satan and Christianity, they just happen to call themselves "Satanists".

I like the idea that we can only perceive a small part of reality.  I also can agree that we need to live in a balance.

I can also agree that our conceptualizations are but artistic expressions.

Shalom

Mate

This is a very Buddhist point of view and I totally agree, except perhaps I wouldn't go so far as saying that it "invalidates" its only reason for existence but rather it drastically circumscribes and therefore limits itself in relvealing that balance between awareness and God.

Religion, or any kind of spiritualism or belief system, is to me is like a coat or a  pair of glasses that I may wear. At the time these items are a right fit and help me to see. But as I grow I have to expand my horizon. My concept of heaven changes, it seems, throughout my lifetime. What I thought was true when I was 18 isn't necessarily the way I see it today. Religions themselves are man-made social institutions that seemed right at the time they are introduced. But they also have in time, just like thier adherents.

Oops, I messed that up,  I meant to edit the above but ended up quoting and saving it and now I can't edit!

The last line should say But they have to change in time, just like thier adherents.

KR,

A Christian Satanist? Never heard of it before... it does seem a bit contradictory though. As for not being La Vey Satanist, i'de rather call myself a false La Vey Satanist that just a Satanist, and go and sacrifice a cat in Satan's name you know?

Shadow

It's not contradictory. Christian Satanists believe in Yahweh (the Christian god) and Satan. They just happen to worship Satan instead of Yahweh. You can make the argument that they are not Christians but the distinction between them and other kinds of Satanists is that they base their beliefs on the Christian mythos.

There is more than one type of Satanist, the Christian Satanists are one, there is another that worships a god called Satan, but this god has nothing to do with the Christian Satan. There are also the LaVey Satanists, who do not worship any gods and have nothing to do with Christianity either. They are probably against worshipping Satan, since they believe that they should only have to worship themselves. I am only bringing this up because Being a Satan worshipper and a LaVey Satanist just seem contradictory.

KR,

I meant the name. Christian Satanist the term seems contradictory. And still does, but you bring up a valid point. However, I go for a religions morals, not it's name. And i'm a pretty twisted person, so that might explain to you why I have such a messed up sence of the world.

Shadow

I think it was more like a light tapping on the shoulder.  You guys are making it sound like I rolled her in the parking lot for her coat or something.

Well it was a pretty violent tap on the shoulder! (Jokes) lol You have to admit though, you where pretty tough on me. ;)

Religion is alchemy.......once upon a time, it seemed like a good idea.  Now we know better and it isn't necessary.

Just as chemistry is not an alternative to alchemy, chemistry is fact based.  So there isn't an "alternative" to religion.

If you want to cling to a set of outdated beliefs with no basis in fact, that of course in a free world, is your choice. 

Atheisto - my religion is all about love, justice, compassion, integrity, etc.  I hope that these values never go out of style.  We need them dearly...cms

Mhm...and alchemy contains all the elements....same as chemistry...but one is fact and the other is fantasy.

You can have all the things you describe without any fanciful antique mysticism.