No

Fred - my experience tells me that many people don't know themselves why they go to church.  Of the ones who do, few speak in terms of growing awareness of spirit.  I have actually asked this question and received answers like these -

because my parents trained me to attend

 it makes me feel good

because it gives a nice break in the week where all I have to do is 'sit'

 I enjoy UCW

because my friends are there

 it fills my need for a social life

so I can sing in the choir - I LOVE singing

I think I need to set a good example for my children and grandchildren

None of these reasons inspired me to continue attending.

You can certainly try. My guess is, it varies from person to person.

If you literally mean, should you give them a specific reason and make them agree? Then the answer is a laughing, "No." Not if you want to have any credibility.

Yes, we can try. But convincing them that going to church is good for them is a hard sell.

I don't think we can "tell" people why going to church is important for "them." Even to try to do so would be pompous. I can tell people why going to church is important for me, but as kaythecurler notes, that may not mean anything to them at all.

For me, when I started going to church it was the result, I suppose, of a curiosity bordering on a compulsion. It was a growing feeling inside me that finally convinced me that this was something I wanted to do. From there, it became comforting, meaningful and inspiring. I keep going now because I know without doubt that I'll get to hear a brilliant sermon every week.

But seriously, I think that the decision to attend church - or even the reasons to attend church - can't be imposed on someone. At most we can witness to what we find important and be invitational, encouraging others to attend with an open mind and see what they take from the experience.

Like others, I think it comes down to being clear about why we ourselves go to church and why we find it important. If we cannot articulate a compelling reason why we find it important, how can we convey that importance to someone else?

Mendalla

I'm interested Fred - why the focus on "church ATTENDANCE"?  And by this do you mean showing up for worship on Sunday?  

For me it's more about participating, serving & learning with my church community - which is a far sight different, in my mind at least, than "attendance" - hence my question. 

Hi Fred Duckett,

Sure we can.  Especially if we are trying to come off as pompous and holier than they are.

A better strategy might be to tell others why going to Church is important to us.  Hopefully we will do so honestly and if all others get out of the conversation is that we were being honest nothing has been lost.

Our honesty about why we feel Church is important may resonate with those we are talking with and they may or may not consider whether Church may be a similar solution for them that it has been for us.

Part of the problem we run  into when we start telling other people what is important for them is the fact that we rarely do so from anything resembling a loving and caring relationship.  We come off as sounding more like sales people working off commission than brothers or sisters who genuinely care.

How many times does Jesus tell others they should go to Church?  Apart from his instruction to the lepers to present themselves to the priests after he cleanses them I cannot recall any such instruction.

His longest discussion involving worship is with the Samaritan woman at the well and he doesn't tell her to go or even where to go he simply points to a future point when worship will not happen at specific locations but in the Spirit and in truth.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Kaythecurler/revjohn

I agree with what you both say. But has these answers become to aceptable.

I have been searching myself for an answer to this question that I can be comfortable and honest with. I like to go to church because i feel comfortable there.

My answer to this question would be.I want and need to learn more to help me on my christian walk. In doing so I hope to help create an atmosphere that will help others. Others do not need to go to church any more than I do.

But I am troubled with the fact the church has become irrevelent to meny people. It has lost it's pillership in the community.

Fred - we each need to make the best decisions for ourselves.  I chose to quit attending.  When your church has no Bible study, no book study, no discussion groups of any kind, doesn't include you in church 'work' like committees, it ceases to seem worthwhile to continue showing up.

Hi Fred Duckett,

I don't know if they have become to acceptable.  They do actually change the emphasis from me, as a member, telling you what you as a non-member should be doing to me, as a member, telling you as a non-member what Church means to me.

That means I, as a member, need to be thinking about why it is that I actually go and what it is that I actually get out of attending.  And if I am getting something out of attending and I can point to a real benefit to attending I probably become more convincing in the long run.

There is a reason why it has lost its pillarship in various communities and that reason is, quite frankly, that it has ceased to be a pillar to the community and it has begun seeing the community as the pillar which supports it.

Some of the historic work of the Church, schools and hospitals, have come under the administration of governments.  As that happens the Churches withdraw from those realms finding other work to do or sitting around watching their navels collect lint.

As governments scaled back on the services they delivered, particularly mental health, the Church could have stepped into what was becoming a socially dangerous gap.  Some have, most haven't.

Most Churches are now more concerned with what goes on inside than they are with what goes on outside and in those Churches the real reason why we want non-churched folk to start attending is because we see them as potential sources of revenue and not because we think we have something to offer (more than another place to spend disposable income).

The Church has competition for attention now.  That is not a bad thing.  It forces the Church to address issues of quality all around.  Regrettably most ignore the fact that quality attracts and they focus more on quantity as if increasing the mass of mediocrity makes it more meaningful.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Frankly, many, if not most, don't need the church at all. Increasingly, there is no "Christian walk" - it's just a walk.

Things are changing, and I can imagine this is troubling to those who see their church as a focus of the community. But as people stop believing, it has become a more niche interest than a community rallying point. John is also correct that there is more competition for family time. I'd rather see kids running around a field or skating around a rink on Sunday mornings, and so would most of the kids. Belief, and the study of belief, are interests for some people who describe themselves as religious. If you don't identify with that description....why go?

By all means, churches have every right to exist just like any other club for any other special interest, but there is no universal reason for people to attend.

You may wonder why I am here so much today. Well it’s like this. Saturday it was  -36 and I took my 2011 Ford edge out. The plastic power steering hoses are a known weakness in cold weather.  A hose gave away.  And the nearest one is in Branford, four days they say.

In reading the replies and have mixed feelings. Because I know what you say is true. Sad to hear that Kaythecurler has given up. Rev John when you said that the church gave up it’s pillarship to the community. These are the Bible verses that came to mind.

NIV Matthew 6  33

But seek First His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well.

If the inside things are right, the outside thing will be right.

NIV John 6

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 You do not want to leave too, do you? Jesus asked the Twelve.         

68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal  life.

If the Christian church does not have the words of life? Then who does?

This  is our church’s mission statement.

Mission Statement for VegrevIle United Church

Vegreville United Church welcomes people of all ages to a Christian community that lives and spreads the Gospel of Jesus  Christ encouraging spiritual growth through worship, music, fellowship, caring and outreach.

I would say that the Christian church has words of Life to offer. What it does not have is "the" words of life. That is, there is wisdom and truth in the Gospel message, but not an exclusive lock on wisdom and truth. While I no longer identify as Christian, there is wisdom in the Gospel story of Jesus and elsewhere in the tradition that I still carry with me. I will be helping lead a UU Solstice/Christmas service in a couple weeks and will be reflecting on the continuing importance of the Nativity story in my spiritual understanding of the world.

However, I do not identify solely with the Christian tradition. I have built my foundations with many sturdy stones. And that is how much of our society is, today. We no longer build our foundations on one type of stone. And that, IMHO, is a good thing.

Christians can contribute much to this more diverse society but in order to do so, they need to divest themselves of the idea that society "needs" the Gospel any more than it needs other traditions. You need to strongly present your message and the reasons why it is important and meaningful to you. However, you then have to let the message do its thing.

Some will take it up, some will just learn from it and add it to their foundation, some will just shrug and go on their way. If even a few fall into the first two groups, then you have accomplished something.

Mendalla

Hi Fred Duckett,

I agree.  I don't think the Christendom Church understood the dilemma they made for themselves.  They built a community that was more appearance than substance.  Folk went to Church because there was nothing else to do and the community policed attendance.

There was nothing else to do because the community restricted Sabbath activities to Church.

And what if Sabbath is something other than a Sunday?  I chose not to shop on a Saturday and then I can't on Sunday?  As pluralism waxed and Christensom waned the political will not to protect any specific day fell due to commercial interest.

The Church simply refused to accept that it needed to adapt believing that folk forced to attend for one reason or another would continue to attend when they were no longer forced.

Because the Christendom Church was built to deal primarily with surface matters rather than substance matters it found it difficult to compete when substance was put to the test.

If the Christian church is not caring for the words of life why would any attend?  And what are the words of life?  You have to sit in this house to hear God?  You have to belong to this church to succeed in life?  You need to listen to this preacher and put into practice their take on scripture if you want a fat wallet?  If you want to be close to God and inherit eternal life you need to sign this petition and boycott these products?

If we love God we wouldn't limit worship to one specific hour on one specific day of the week it would be constant.

If we love our neighbour it will show in how we treat our neighbour.  If that gets us no notice then we aren't loving our neighbour enough or in ways they find meaningful.

Welcoming all ages is good.  How is that welcoming practiced.  Does the congregation sit and wait for the world to come to them or does it go out into the world?

How does the congregation spread the Gospel of Jesus?  What does the Gospel of Jesus look like in your collective hands?

How does you worship, music, fellowship, caring and outreach encourage spiritual growth?  What spiritual styles are fed by each?

Mission statements can be very useful things.  Sadly they rarely translate into action plans and once a congregation has put together something that sounds nice that is usually the end of efforts in this regard.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I have no idea what "words of life" even means. Wisdom? What wisdom did Chrsitianity bring to the table that no person or society had not figured out before?

Neither, really, do I. I am just guessing what he means (the truth about Jesus Christ and Salvation) based on my own experiences as a Christian.

To be honest, it didn't bring much that wasn't already in the Jewish tradition (or, in some elements, classical philosophy) but it certainly has its own perspective and spin on the ideas and definitely gives a different emphasis. It is certainly closer to prophetic books like Isaiah and Amos than to older books of the law and the histories (Kings, etc.).

Of course, once you get into Paul, then Greek philosophy starts seeping in as well, something that continued outside the canon when you get in Augustine and others. IOW, Christianity is something of a synthesis and that alone makes it stand out next to the traditions that fed it.

That said, you can say that about almost major existing tradition so it hardly invalidates Christianity. Hinduism and Buddhism are clearly rooted in the older Indian traditions that fed into both. Chinese philosophies like Confucianism and Taoism didn't spring from whole cloth, but incorporated a lot of prior Chinese thought. Dare I say, modern humanism draws on the Judaeo-Christian tradition and even more so on Classical and later Western philosophy. In fact, one could argue that there is very little that is original to it. No tradition truly brings something totally new and unique to the table.

Christians do have a tendency to pretend that Jesus and his followers gave us something new and unique, and need to periodically be reminded that that was not so. However, any other modern tradition should be equally humble (including, of course, UU'ism).

Mendalla

Fred Duckett     your quote   But I am troubled with the fact the church has become irrevelent to meny people. It has lost it's pillership in the community.

It has lost God Mr Duckett ----God has been taken out of the equation ----Ministers try to preach without God ---God has been taken out of the schools ---the workplace --the Home ---The Church is run by committees ----No one involves The Holy Spirit to give direction in any functions or finances of His Church ---People have no time to listen to  hear from God ---we humans are so interested in what power we have ourselves that God is lost in our self centeredness ----

The Holy Spirit will direct you to the right people to approach Mr Duckett and you will be guaranteed success ----Our Problem is we want to do our will not God's will ----

Put God back where He Belongs and Let Him direct and the Churches will thrive--That is my belief ----- 

Acts 9 is all about God guiding ------

Peace

I can’t speak for all that’s for sure.  After 50 plus years of being actively involved in almost all parts of church life I decided to cut back.  I sleep in on Sunday and/or do what I want.  Do I miss it…..I miss the people – but as for my spiritual journey – not really.

Church is the same – after a while – if the person preaching is keeping things relative and/or can somehow engage the congregation it can be interesting but for the most part a waste of an hour.

I am tired of the same old worship styles in most churches – in UCC we rarely talk about the love of God – and or how we love God – and for that matter – how we love God.  We can do all the social justice like other clubs do.  In most of my church life we never try to develop any kind of relationship with God.  I am not sure if it is the unspoken assumption….but if we can’t connect with God and Christ in church what’s the point. How do we show/tell/express to others what church is all about?

I want to be challenged and grow – I want to soar with the eagles –and crash and burn so I know the difference.  Church is way too safe.  What risk has your church/congregation taken lately?

I don’t invite people to church because I feel ashamed – we are a do nothing, take no risk, church.  Even my fellow fundamentalists will take stances on issues…one of my past ministers stated that the UUC was a “thinking church” – we think about what we are told and ask questions.  Rather than following blindly – without question.  Hmm…all the theology in the world isn't going to get us in gear…..and the thinking isn’t going to get us active….we need exercise……..

If I am going to spend at least an hour a week with my church family, I need to have a purpose.  I need to see that I (we) are making a difference in our local community. I need to see my God in action.

I just came from a council meeting – yes, I still go – and there was no energy in the room – people are tired, drained……I spend countless amount of hours on my passions – and I know that I am making a difference.  Is it wrong to what my local church to do the same?

We, as a church, need to connect – to the world outside and to ourselves. 

How – let go of the past – build a future – I keep active in the real world – I want my church to be a part of the real world.  Bury the dead and move on. 

We used to be a uniting church.  We have lost that.  How to get it back – someone take charge. 

During Advent we've invited certain people to share (in 3 minutes or less) what they believe and why church matters to them.  Last Sunday was my turn.  Yes, I can tell people why I go to church and why this particular church is important to me - both in the fellowship and support it offers me and my family, and in the opportunities I find to serve others - Love God / Love Others.   If anybody outside the church were interested I could share this with them.  But I can't tell them why they should go to church.  I think it is something each individual has to decide for themselves. 

Isn't it really aboot 'the church' finding out what people (that which enables the church to exist) desire and then finding a way to fulfill it?

Outside of fear of losing one's church (which I hear and understand) and the 'problems' that will definitely arise because of losing one's church, what really is one fearful aboot in this case in the greater sense, outside of personal anxieties?

Maybe 'the church' has succeeded in its task and more and more are 'leaving the church', not in abandonment of the g_d concept but in fulfillment of it...they just don't need a church to do good acts, be wonderful people, help other people, love each other, etc etc...

Maybe make a list of your personal anxieties regarding this and then your anxieties over the greater implications, maybe making two columns, one for 'empirical facts' and 'theories'?

Just some random thoughts from someone on the outside...

I agree completely. That's all I was doing.

In the Vedas, the oldest scriptures of humanity, there is a creator god. The first man created is "manu." In Sanskrit, the language of the Vedas, "man" or "human" means "manu." But "manu" is also a verb meaning "to create," and "manu" the noun also means "creator."

The ultimate creator created humans in its image, as creators. This is echoed in the Bible. Alas, Pauline Christianity deteriorated into a religion where free creativeness was discouraged, and imitativeness, blind belief in dogma and unquestioning belief in and obedience to authority were encouraged. Christian religion became a tool of imperialism and imperialist expansion, trying to make its members function morally by instilling in the shame, guilt, and fear. Conventional Christianity became an authoritarian religion that stifled our creative spirit and crippled our psyche.

Some progressive Christians are attempting to reverse this, and awaken, liberate and activate the creative spirit in us humans, but this appears to be too little, too late. About 70% of what is left of Christianity is still implicated in the old, authoritarian religion. It looks like Christianity will become extinct before it turns itself around. If pockets of it survive, then it will be in the form of humanistic social service clubs like the Rotarians, Lions, etc.

Science-based philosophy is now telling us that we are creative energy. It is doing what conventional Christianity failed to do.

I find the "creative energy" lines gag-worthy. More to the point, we're star dust, we have a shared ancestry that has absolutely nothing to do with the account in Genesis, and our religions and superstitions are simply an arbitrary function of the culture and time we grew up in - nothing more.

I think the sooner we realize that religion needlessly divides us into camps, the better. No, it won't solve everything, but I've yet to hear a persuasive argument why fewer lines drawn between people is a bad thing.

Look at kids. My daughter doesn't care what your religion is - she plays with anyone who plays with her. She was sad when some of her classmates couldn't be there for Halloween. She felt sorry that they were missing out. She told us the other night that she was sad that she wasn't allowed to celebrate Hannukah because we aren't Jewish. We told her she can celebrate any occasion she wants. She drew a menorah, and was happy.

Christianity made it's mark on western society - it gave us holidays and named them. I think Christianity is silly, but I still celebrate Christmas. All this "Put the Christ back in Christmas" stuff is insane. Christians already stole the Winter Solstice from the pagans. If anything, let's take the Christ out of Christmas, so that everyone can celebrate it. Christians can take quiet pride (if they know how to) in giving a name to the holiday.

Pagans will have to settle for naming Easter.

Well, chansen, you may gag on the "creative energy" lines, but I get high on them.

I think the accounts in Genesis and the Vedas are metaphors for the innate cosmic creativeness, of which we humans have become aware, and are practicing, to our benefit and/or our peril.

To some of us, energy is  just energy. To others, it is the eternally creative substance of the universe.

We are as gods and must get good at it!

-Stewart Brand

Take heart, God is still in charge. We have to trust that our plans aren't always what God has in mind. Maybe our talents are better invested elsewhere, who knows?

Hi chansen,

Then it would just be a Mass.  Hard to take the Christ out of that.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Actually, it would be "mas", which is Spanish for "but", or "more", as in, "No mas!" for "No more!"

My Spanish isn't very good (actually, it's non-existent), so let's play a common game around here and just make up my own meaning that "mas" means "more", and any celebration that's called "more" is something I can get behind.

Hi Chansen,

As Hallowe'en is a derivation of All Hallow's Evening.  Christmas is a derivation of Christ's Mass.  Take the Christ out and it is a simple Mass.

RobFordmas?  That annual celebration of the time Mayor Ford either saw or was informed of the alleged pedophile Daniel Dale or Toronto Star Reporter in his yard, or on public property taking pictures of his kids or viewing a potential land purchase which was captured on a security video which nobody has seen or may not even exist.

I don't even want to discuss what would be appropriate fare at a potluck celebrating that.

Grace and peace to you.

John

well ... if you don't want Christ in Christmas then just be content with Happy Holidays 

Really ..... this should not be imposed but then again neither should it be restricted.

I am quite happy for any kind hearted holiday greeting....

I celebrate the Christ version of Christmas and I treasure that.

I do not expect everyone else to have to as well but I also want my freedom to express my beliefs in an appropriate way.   Merry Christmas for me please....

By the way .... my grandkids also enjoy the Santa Claus stuff as well....

chansen .... I know you will probably equate Christ to Santa Claus as just a storybook character.   That is your opinion and I am ok with that.   I just happen to hold a far different opinion 

Happy Holidays to you my friend...

Rita

First -- For Chansen and Mendalla-- Words of LIFE--

--

Those who don't understand these words should know they mean your dead  and Jesus The Christ  has come to give you life.Oh I know you think your alive but your not. Your dieing every day. Look around do you see any hundred and fifty year olds? This to me may be one" of the reasons the churchs are dieing today. They have forgotten they have the key to life. If I go into the world and give others   a sandwich . I may have extened there lives for one more day. If I give them the word of Christ . I may have helped them live forever.Through out my walk with GOD. He has showen that the life of the flesh is worth far less than the Spirit. Jesus The Christ said Himself . The Flesh is of no avil" it will go back to dust. Then after we do this that is feed the Spirit . Then we should try and help them live as best they can. For what ever time GOD has given them. How the churchs got this mixed up ? I don't know.Christ sent us forward to feed the soul to lift the spirit. To help those in dark find the light.  They now are Brothers and Sisters through Christ Jesus. We now also have and obligation to help them, With what ever we can give  or teach.How can this be done with Men an Woman  it the pulpit who don't believe who CHRIST JESUS IS. We need Women and Men  Who are fill with GODS Holy Spirit. How can the blind lead? Can one  find there way in the dark ? If they have no Light? All are not called to go into the world and bring the word . But some are, and the churchs job seems to be that they give there backing in this.That all may do the good work of  GOD. Others who are not called to go into the world. May want to learn Gods words a little more. Like God Bless--Praise The Lord--Thank God -- This is The Day The Lord Has Made--All Glory Is Gods. Call those you know who are walking with GOD Brothers and Sisters. The Church is one family that family is GODS.----------The church is for believes and lifting one another up as well. Jesus spent a lot of time in Synagogues and Temples--------

This then would mean if we are to follow Christ should we not also spend time in are churchs? -God Bless---airclean33

In my UU fellowship, we generally go with "Solstice" as the generic name for the end of year festival season (since the Winter Solstice itself is a definable astronomical event not tied to a specific tradition), though many of us celebrate one or more of the traditional festivals (e.g. I celebrate Christmas).

Mendalla

There is one for you, chansen.

"Mass" is "Messe" in German, with the "e" at the end pronounced as "é". But in the Bavarian dialect, they drop the "e" at the end, just as we do in English, and call it a "Mess." So a Christ-mass is a Christ-mess.

What a Christmess, eh?

rinted from The Jewish Religion: A Companion, published by Oxford University Press.

There is only a single reference to a birthday in the Bible: "And it came to pass on the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday that he made a feast unto all his servants" (Genesis 40: 20).

The Mishnah (Avodah Zarah 3: I), too, refers only to the birthday celebrations of pagan rulers but is silent on birthday celebrations among Jews. It has even been suggested that, in ancient times, Jews saw a birthday as a gloomy reminder that life is drawing closer to its end; a day for solemn reflection and repentance rather than festivity

___________________________________

Airclean --I as the early jews do not believe . If we are thanking GOD for Jesus The Christ. I don't have to much of a problem. Even though I find nothing in the new Testment that saids we should be celbrating the 25 Dec.Nor did the Apostles do so on any day.

Good point, airclean. Dec. 25 was actually picked to compete with a pagan sun festival (Sol Invictus, IIRC). The Bible does not even tell us what year Jesus was born, let alone the exact date. It is definitely a festival that arose out of tradition rather than scripture.

Mendalla

Words of life

I do not think that any person can go through life saying there is no God. If there is one, the bible has a name for that person and it is fool.

Psalm 14 1

The fool says in his heart, there is no God.

Today to the same God.

A person in the world is in a temple inflicting pain on him with knife and needle.

A person planning a suicide bombing to kill as many People who do not believe like them as possible

A person is sitting in a church praying asking God for mercy and forgiveness.

Each person is hoping that what they are doing will please God. And He will accept him into his kingdom.

Jesus came to out the way to God to each of them. But only a few listen.  He said the way to salvation narrow and few are on it, but the road to damnation is wide and many are on it. Like it or not that is what is written.

How to get on the way to salvation are the words of life.

Well, Fred, did it ever occur to you that this very attitude is driving people away from church rather than attracting them?

Amen Arminius.

Classic scam behaviour. Attack all criticism of dogmatic claims. Deflect, deflect, deflect.

That line doesn't work any more. Come back when you have something more impressive.

Brother Duckett,

But of course; isn't it very difficult & challenging to be as Jesus, that of holding above all else ('g_d') loving your neighbour as yourself, never judging, and to keep doing that, no matter what buts you can think of?  But I'm tired.  But that person is a terrorist.  But that person hurt my feelings.  But that person is a rapist.  But...

The writers of the Bibble were schmart peeps...Jesus was a schmart critter...they knew how hard, how 'narrow', how few would try that method of dealing with others...

That one would have to be seriously into this...to follow Jesus (love one another, never judge, repeat) really, one would have to be willing to give up their family (VERY IMPORTANT culturally back then...almost a blasphemous statement) to do so...and so forth...

Now your getting it Mr Duckett ----If your Born Again you have the Holy Spirit to guide you  -leave God in charge of you picking the right person to talk to about attending His Church ----He sees and Knows who is in need ----You will not have to worry about rejection ---they will come to church ---Period

Peace

To bring this back to "Church Attendance"....

I tend to agree that just coming to church on a Sunday and sitting in the pew would not "work" for me.  I find the services worshipful and inspiring, but, like you, that is not quite enough for me.  

  Yes, my church is active.  We have Bible/book studies, DVD discussion groups, Committees, fundraisers, etc.  We try to include everyone who might be interested.  Even though we have a great minister who is able to be involved in our studies, I like to think that if he wasn't able to do this, that someone would step in to make sure these studies would continue..  And now the question would be "Who is 'Someone?"  If we look at this question honestly, we must answer... "Well, I guess I am!"   So, if your church doesn't offer what you are looking for then why not offer to help get it started. Look around for skilled people who might be just waiting for someone to ask them (like you were).  We have had people come forward to offer to chair many of our fundraisers... Suppers, teas, concerts, Christmas House Tours .. as well as other activities  that are held just for fun and fellowship... games nights, pot lucks, sleigh rides.  And, yes, we do also have many who seem to just attend on Sundays.  But if we are fulfilling a need for these, so be it. 

  Why do I go to church?  All of the above!  This is my family.

What does one do when you identify with your church family, but you don't believe any more?

Arminius

Could you tell me how you detect an attitude in what I wrote. I thought I was just stating facts and quoting what was writen. What was writen was read for many years before and for many years after I am gone. 

Peace

Don't give up.  There will be something out there which will speak to you  Perhaps there are others in your church family who feel as you do and would like to accompany you on your search.

Okay, but what search?

Hi yuppey - I don't recall seeing your name before, so may I welcome you to the Wondercafe.

Your response to my post was interesting, and in an ideal world and congregation your suggestions would work.  Obviously though, you don't know the details of my experience and make assumptions that aren't valid to the situation.   Congratualtions on finding a congregation that you can honestly describe as family. 

Hi Fred:

Biblical literalists and fundamentalists here on the Café sometimes use biblical quotes to state their opinion, and say this is not their opinion but the authoritative word of God, but how can it not be their opinion? You are of the opinion that the Bible is the authoritative word of God, and we are of the opinion that it is not, and you call us fools for not sharing your opinion? Yet, at the same time, you lament the lack of church attendance?