For a good long time churches have operated using attractional models. The emphasis has been on how to squeeze the highest number of people into the pews. In order to draw the people in to do church, congregations have changed their music from old-timey hymns to more-modern praise choruses; they've changed older versions of the Bible to things like the NLT and even The Message; They've tried one program and then another trying to attract people each week through their often-otherwise-locked front doors. Some denominations have even been willing to alter their theologies.And it's all profited, well, not much.

Many denominations are just holding their own. Several others are actually dying. Churches no longer hold the same meaning and value in western Europe and North America that they once did. The attractional church model has lost out to apathy. It is time to change.

Now, personally, I like attractional churches. The three churches I have been a part of in Toronto (one United, two Baptist) have operated using an attractional paradigm. There is something comfortable about going to a church building and being part of the community there.

However, we in the church...

Would you rather do nothing while the ship is sinking, or grab a bucket?

Slick sermons and presentations sell. They just do. People get to be entertained and hear what they want to hear, and come away thinking they have the best imaginary friend in the world who likes what they like and hates what they hate. Not much about Christianity sells anymore, but that still does, to enough people to make it literally profitable.

So when older churches see young people showing up to slick new churches, yeah, there's going to be a "We should do that!" moment.

This happens all the time in the marketplace of cars, fast food, etc. You can think of examples of flashy new offerings being copied by competitors without my help. Why would that not happen in the marketplace of beliefs?

You are part of an industry, like any other. You don't like to be told that, but it's pretty hard to argue against it. Especially when your franchises are closing and the competition is offering a flashier, more attractive product.

I can't blame churches for grabbing a bucket and trying. But if they're outside their comfort zone and just trying to compete, it's going to come across as desperate, which it is.

Kinda like McDonald's selling pizza.

WF, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the church as an institution always has looked like the "rest of the world". Petty politics, control freakery, clashes of rigidly held positions, support for the establishment over radical change (or for radical change over the establishment in some rare cases), and so on, all the social issues and sins of any organization, can be found in the church back to the beginning. The church sometimes lags behind the rest of the world. It is a rather conservative institution that way. But as a human institution in a human world, the church has a rather strong resemblance to that world.

Even taking the broader notion of the church as "the Body of Christ", the greater population of those who believe in and follow Christ, you are still dealing with human beings who are living in the world so, over time, it is going to rather resemble the population at large. It is still a human entity.

Since the church in both senses is comprised of human beings, it is inevitably going to change and evolve as the rest of human society does.

Mendalla

Where is God in the churches ----He is no where to be found ---all humans and their ideas that is what churches are all about -----people fighting and arguing over where the money should be spent ----who should be doing what job in the church ---- what fund raising should be done etc ---- 

The churches need to get back to the basic message ----Jesus said what His Father told Him to say ---we need to say what the Holy Spirit wants us to say not what the human roll call calls for us to preach on a certain Sunday etc ----We need to allow God to run His Church ----Who are we to say we need to preach on Luke this Sunday cause the lectionary calls for it -----If God calls us to preach on Luke then there is a reason for it ---

People are what God wants in His Church -----Giving God what is God's is what God wants in His Church ----learning how we as people can live here and now in peace --joy --health ---and be Blessed so we can be a Blessing to others is what we need to have preached and His word tells us how to do this ----Many preachers don't know God themselves nor have had the experience of lasting peace ---joy --etc so how can they preach to others what they themselves don't know ------

Churches are failing because God is lost in the Churches ----We humans have taken over God's Job -----

This is just my view ----Peace

If society at large is becoming more spiritual, then church is losing its role as the harbinger of spirituality. A spiritual human culture will render organized religion obsolete.

Chansen,Maybe part of the problem is, after all the "slick" advertising draws them in, what they are greeted with is an unwelcoming church. Its quickly brushed off as false advertising. Nobody "advertises" that it's not just about what the church can do for them, but also the need to participate. Becoming a "servant" isn't popular these days.

This reminds me of something I read once, that our churches have become similar to a "Babylonian" style of church, where we sit and listen to a sermon without any participation or dialogue. The apostle Paul, in Acts 17:2  "reasons" with the crowd suggesting that perhaps "church" should different than what we have come to know.

I remember Rev. Steven Davis telling us that on certain Sundays, he would devote it to questions submitted by his congegation and how they participated and enjoyed it.

What the?!? God is missing again?

Somebody put a bell on him or something.

...need a way to share with people that we love them, we care about them, we want good and whole lives for them, and so, we believe, does our God.

The answer, I think, is that followers of Christ need to increasingly see themselves as being churches rather than seeing their buildings as being the churches. We need to move outside our buildings' walls. People are not so interested in coming inside our buildings any more. Now is our time to reach out to them in love and service. Sunday mornings should no longer be thought of as being the feature presentation, but rather as dress rehearsals, so to speak, before we get out into our neighborhoods and work together as churches for the betterment of our cities.

God has a great mission of redemption which he is working, and it's time that we who call ourselves by the name of Christ join and actively participate in his ministry.

No doubt there are good and bad churches, I know of  a few, but there are many good spiritual churches in Toronto also that I know of and have experienced . My church like any other body of believers has its share of problems , but then again its made up of humans, and we all know our nature, at least I do.

I do not attend Church because of other believes, (though I do enjoy there fellowship ). Nore do I attend church because of their advertizing, because they don’t, or because of the pastor, even though he’s a friend of mine. I attend because of Gods Spirit, when I am in His presence, there is nothing like it, He Give me Hope, files me with Love, and assures me that no matter what he will never leave me or forsake me. That is a great comfort in a world of uncertainties, disasters, and sicknesses and then death . 

But do you need to be in church to find that presence? Even before becoming UU, when I was still practicing as a Christian, I found God's presence strong in many places, not just the church. From a standpont of connecting with The Divine/God, I don't need a church. "God", as I understand God at present, is present in all places and times. Church is about connecting with other people and sharing that Divine connection with them.

Mendalla

no I dont , but I also enjoy worshiping in His Pressence in a grp and watching the Spirit work through others, helping others into His presense , it again moves my spirit. 

can you see what you wrote  that its all about you, what you can get and experance out of God,  maturing in a church surronding is about others not you, you alread have his presense, its 

slefish vs selfless 

Hi Mendalla,

Great point.  I agree completely.

Grace and peace to you.

John

And this is good?

Hi waterfall,

I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

I was simply agreeing witht he fact that as an insitution the Church is as worldly as any other institution.

Church wasn't designed to be an institution which was served.

Church is supposed to be an organism that serves.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Just asking for clarification, thanks.

Perhaps if the church looked more like the world it would be a more tolerant and fair place.

It is a sad observation that it is the churches that have to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting human rights and that it is the secular world that has to drag them......

I would have thought that churches should have been the ones taking the lead.

Regards

Rita

I agree Rita.  The church is not a "safe space" for many people.  When the world does church better than we do we should start to worry.

Polished church services - slick - message centered - great music - and team building - what a concept - and for those churchs that have implemented these they do well, very well. 

Get out into the world - most of these types of churches also have local missions. 

I would rather pay a UCC minsiter for pastoral care and building up the congreaiton than worrying about worhsip.  Its an hour (and can take between 10 to 20 hours of a week of prepreation) - this is not good stewardship.  If people in the pews aren't brining people in to worhsip with them ask why.  If you aren't  excitied and/or get something out of your worship  servcie then scrap the model you are uisng.  If you are getting somethout out of the service but new members aren't there - I would suggest you are in it for yourself and not reaching out to others. 

Just my two cents.

To be fair, it's a mixed bag. You can still find Christian churches who try to do the right things, but there are a lot of Christian forces weighing the faith down, and digging in their heels, insisting on maintaining horrible beliefs and positions. For someone like myself who argues that Christianity is a net negative influence on the world, when it comes to putting examples to those arguments, I'm spoiled for choice.

What the secularists have failed to do, is a proper job of filling in and giving people leaving their faith options and a safety net to catch them. We can do better.

Here's one early effort: http://secularsafehouse.org/

It's a new, small organization, but I hope it becomes a larger movement of people helping others leave religion and cults, over disagreements on faith and sexuality.