Ever since you joined this site I have been reading your thoughts and your questions. We are travelling a very similar faith journey. Hope to see more of you.

You wrote "Is this because of some failure of liberal or moderate doctrine..."

We are born wet, cold and hungry and then someone slaps our butt and makes us cry out. Most people seek security and comfort and the assurance that all is well or will be well in their world. Conservative or evangelical or fundamentalist churches offer this much moreso than liberal or progressive churches.. Someone once said "If you can make people think that they are thinking, they will love you. If you actually make them think, they will hate you." 

holy crap, that is one of the best quotes i've seen in awhile...

JRT, that is awesome - got to find the source of that quote.

please post it if you can, brads ego... i tried and came up with nuthin.

Brad - I think you've hit the nail on the head: the real growth in conservative churches is because their format is culturally relevant. Liberal churches tend not to be so.

Why is this? I've wondered about that. Liberal churches are generally "mainline" churches and as such they have a stylistic inheritance. Fundamentalist churches have structures that are more recent (or are less likely to be tied to a large church bureaucracy inherited from the past), and have no such ties. This applies to architecture as well. Notice how many fundamentalist church structures are new? And how mainline churches are struggling with being able to maintain heritage structures?).  Another possibility:  mainline churches stress the integrity of the message, and so require many years of post-secondary education (In mainline churches, one requires a graduate degree = MDiv in order to be a minister). This means ministerial candidates are generally older (or even starting second careers) than pastors-in-training in fundamentalist churches, and being older, are further removed from the cultural idiom of the day.  Addressing this means challenging the academically privileged position of divinity schools in universities, which may be more difficult than simply starting a new church!

Among the clergy in mainline denominations, I definitely note a resistance to cultural relevance. It's not just coming from congregations. It could be that clergy expects resistance, and so goes the conservative route, possibly believing that a liberal theology is more acceptable when the practice of faith (in worship) remain traditional. So you don't have to challenge everything at once. Unfortunately, this doesn't work with most people under 60, who make cultural relevance more of a priority.

There is no correlation between liberal theology and decline. The Southern Baptists say they will lose half their membership in 20 years.

Here's some numbers from Statistics Canada:

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Percentage declines:

The Mainline Churches: ·      

Lutheran - 04.7

Anglican - 07.0

United Church - 08.2

Presbyterian - 35.6

The Evangelical, Conservative, Fundamentalist and Charismatic Churches:

Free Methodist - 04.1

Church of the Nazarene - 06.6

Church of God - 06.9

Mennonite - 07.9

Jehovah's Witnesses - 08.1

Associated Gospel - 10.3

Standard Church - 10.6

Spiritualist - 11.8

Churches of Christ, Disciples - 14.0

Pentecostal - 15.3

Canadian & American Reformed Church - 15.8

Doukhobors - 21.1

Salvation Army - 21.9

Brethren in Christ - 22.0

Swedenborgian (New Church) - 28.8

Mission de l'Esprit Saint - 35.6

Christian or Plymouth Brethren - 37.3

Reorganized Church of Latter-day Saints - 57.2

Worldwide Church of God - 75.7

Dutch Reformed Church - 77.6

Apostolic Christian Church - 86.9

I wonder what liberal faction or national church policy decision they blame for their decline?

And last, but not least, let us not forget our liberal friends

Unitarian + 05.7

(Yes, that is a plus sign. )

Data source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/can_rel1.htm

At the evangelical Baptist church I'm a member of, our services are not in the style of Hollywood. We do sing some of our hyms to DVDs, however I believe some of this same is happening within some of the liberal churches. Personally, I believe liberal churches are in decline because God is not showing the same favor to them as he is to the evangelicals.

I assume that you have the artists' permission to do this...

k

are you serious?  or are you being sarcastic??  i have a heckuva time reading sarcasm on the internet, so i want to clarify...

Yes, we have the appropriate licenses.

Serious. I believe God favors the evangelical churches more because (generally speaking of course) we are more faithfully following the Bible.

The liberal churches have turned to all sorts of things. As just one example, one of the local United Churches was recently teaching numerology. They have strayed away from teaching God's truths.

Licenses rarely cover the copyright of accompaniment on a dvd, unless you hold a video license as well.  Many churches forget this little extra step...cms

Our services are boring. Needs more emergent dudes.

And then of course, we have to resort to the belief that "most" people won't follow and will go to hell so that we can explain why these favored few are so ... uhhh.... few.

Bujt, lest I sound too harsh jubilee, I do appreciate your honesty in expressing your opinion.

Indeed. Nor is it a Christian phenomenon. Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems. All are finding that the traditional forms of thier teachings are less and less compelling for new generations.

As we become a global civilization, it becomes more difficult to maintain the fiction that "God only talks to us. Everyone else can go to hell." Interestingly, this does not mean that people cease being spiritual. They simply cease being dogmatic.

Thank God.

David

Maybe the Unitarian church is growing cause God's having an identity crisis.

Hi Kinst:

It is not God but us who are having the identity crisis.

Or are we the part of God that has the crisis?

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

Be Blessed,

IB

I am a member of the Anglican Church of Canada.  I can agree that all churches are in decline.

Having said that, I was raised in a very fundamentalist/literalist church.  Yes they did make people think they were thinking.  When I actually began to think I left since I found what I heard and saw was not, in my understanding, at all what Jesus taught.

Yes the mainline churches tend to maintain a connection with the traditions of the past.  What is called orthodoxy today is the invented child of the reformation.  It does not hearken back to the church of the apostles while at the same time recognizing the accumulated fund of knowledge and understanding that we have today, hence the emerging church.  I could make the point that in fact the fundamentalists usurped the term Christian and created their own faith.  I say this not to hurt or disparage but simply to show that things changed at the reformation and not everything was for the good.  Many tended to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I have absolutely no problem with those who wish to remain in the fundamentalist/literalist/ evangelical church.  I respect their choice.  What I do have a problem with is their very unchristian point of view that many have that if you are not one of them you are not a true Christian.  I think it is best to let God be the judge of that.  We are cautioned not to judge.  I cannot count the number of times that I have been told that I am misleading people and condemning them to hell along with myself.

I have lived all my life in a developing transforming realtionship with God.  I have relied on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me not only through my career but since I have retired.  I have been led to the point where I now openly declare myself a Christian pluralist.

Having been there and done that, as far as the more fundamentalist churches go I have developed my own ideas as to why they seem to be growing but that is an whole other issue.

Shalom

Mate

Maybe we are all just plain outgrowing God????

/We have certainly outgrown yesterdays concept of God..

Shalom

Mate

Recently we were planning our holy week services - trying to find ways to present the story in interesting, inovative ways - thinking of music, role playing, drama - reinacting a walk through Holy Week on Passion Sunday, washing the feet at the Maundy Thursday supper, stripping the sanctuary and draping the cross in black for Good Friday, meeting on the hill to watch the sunrise over the river and hold a sun rise service on Easter Sunday.  Then we learned that the Pentecostal church down the street was going to have a Roman soldier on a white horse directing parking for their extravaganza.  How do you compete with that type of production?  You don't.  You don't worry about numbers - you work for quality, for authenticity (Jesus and his followers were poor peasants), you work for meaning.   

seeler

Absolutely.

Shalo m

Mate

amen.  nicely said Seeler.

(now, authenticity & quality can be done emerging/modern/postmodern whatever style too, and there is nothign wrong with that.)

I was raised traditional but liberal.  I am pushing the box these days because my son is bored stiff.  I look around and realize what a strange thing I am, comfortable in mainline church.   I like pushing the box too, and though I dont' think I'll have a huge church, I'll have a meaningful authentic spiritual one.

Lets get one thing straight - because of differences of definitions, denominations, surveys, and a host of other variables there is no polling group that can decipher what denominations are actually losing members, much less which is strictly "conservative" or "liberal." What I am comparing here are those who participated in the landmark Pew study in the 2008 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, which found that comparing an individual's "Childhood Religion" with their "Current Religion" is the only way to get a bigger picture of whats going on.

It is true that Baptists are losing the most - which is easily explained by the sheer growth of "Nondenominational" churches, which if you are a Baptist, you probably understand.

Religious Losers:

• Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal, Restorationist, Catholic, Mormon, Jewish

Religious Gainers:

• Nondenominational, Pentecostal, Holiness, Adventist, Nonspecific Protestant, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslim, Buddhist, Other, atheist, agnostic, and "no religion."

Don't pay much attention to the unaffiliated because most kids don't think of themselves in that way. The fact is, people are leaving the more traditional, "mainline", or liberal" churches while the more conservative Protestants are still growing. Additionally, the survey also shows that 58% of those who go to "Evangelical" Protestant churches (self-defined) attend at least once a week. Meanwhile, only 34% of "Mainline" Protestants do the same.

What we are seeing than is that many people are still ticking off the "Anglican" box in these surveys, but it is likely that they do based on some sort of family tradition - since most aren't attending church except for on special occassions.

As for the aforementioned idea that God blesses the evangelical church, I would say that is valid hypothesis - but I would take a look in the mirror first. Evangelical churches are rife with political turmoil and shallow howdy-does. Most evangelical Christians know nothing of Christian history and as Stephen Prothero puts it "Pop psychology has elbowed biblical exegesis out of many born-again pulpits (including some of the most successful megachurches), self-help books outsell theological works in most Christian bookstore, and loving Jesus has replaced affirming the Westminster Confession as the soul of evangelical piety." A keen observer will also note that evangelical Christianity, as a broad category, is acutely Pauline in its theology (or lack thereof) and many churches border on what would have been called the gnostic heresy had they been around prior to Constantine.

Furthermore, the overall numbers show that Protestantism is on the decline since the 1972 poll, while Catholicism is holding steady and those who declare "no religion" is actually climbing. Does this than mean that God is blessing the godless?

Just let your preschoolers loose in the vestry with some tinkertoys and *poof* Out will come Ricardo Montelbaln.

*shiver*

Inannawhimsey

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Don Marquis 1878-1937

IBelieve

Thanks for tracking that source down

JRT

I can only speak about the churches I see in my own area.  I think people go to churches (and other activities) because they provide them with what they think they want/need.  Local churches that discourage thinking are very popular with those who are intellectually sluggish (not incapable, but don't enjoy puzzling out answers).  Local churches that provide entertainment are well attended.  Local churches that have a system for integrating new members are doing well.  Local churches that care about the joys and sorrows of the members lives are doing ok.  Local churches who offer much the same as they did 50 years ago have few new members, and almost no new young ones. This last group includes the so called mainline churches.

There just aren't any local churches available for the people who enjoy thinking, experimenting with various types of prayer/outreach/activity.  This is where Emerging Spirit could have been successful - providing a base for sharing ideas, successes, failures.  Again locally - it has made no difference to what happens in local UC congregations.  The old faithful continue having their fundraising events to buy 'things' for the church.  They continue to fight change.  They noisily express their distress at 'new' hymns.

Butler Bass claims to have found a few lively congregations that don't force feed theology - but I think they are spread thinly on the ground..  No such creature where I live.

kaythe

An excellent post and in many ways I think right on.

I am thankful that I have found an Anglican church that is right up to date in thinking and theology.  Then we have had intellectuals as priests.  It is the most exciting church community I have ever been in.

BTW our church is growing.

Shalom

Mate

Mate - too bad your Anglicans aren't where I live.  The local ones are mostly 60+ and kept busy enough raising money to keep the church building in repair. 

kaythe

I am quite sure that what you say is true.  However, things are changing and will continue to.  You might be interested in the work of Matthew Fox.  He can be googled.

Shalom

Mate

well, by your logic then, god is REALLY favoring the muslims, because they are growing by leaps and bounds.

so, when are you going to join the mosque, jubilee??  cause you know, they are obviously following the bible even MORE faithfully than YOU are.

in YOUR opinion, perhaps.  but being a member of the UCC myself, i can say that we are definetly not 'strayed away from teaching god's truths' at all. 

well, according to jubilee it is. 

personally, i don't claim to know the mind of god, so i can't say either way.

...intermission.... (edited my post to nothing)....

 lol and like, wtf?  People make me think all the time and I don't hate them.

do they??  or are they just making you THINK that you are thinking, without really thinking at all??? 

think about that!!!

Hey. Enough of the Jedi mind tricks there sighs.......I think.

Its funny as I was just talking about this with my spouse this morning re: Christian camping and the kids.  A lot of the songs at a local Christian camp had very fundamentalist words - (you know - "lets get God's enemies and smite them and kill them etc" and "no one but us are saved and the rest of you will rot in hell blah blah blah") - but really rock/contemporary music that the kids loved.  And we were trying to figure out what we would do to intervene if we allowed the kids to go to this camp again as we wanted to be involved in the camp again (as our local church supported it) but we don't believe teaching our children violence things.  I have a real concern that these fundamentalist churches bring people in by their entertainment value and then teach them really negative values that can lead to poor behaviors in society at large.  We were wondering if the songs were really so bad and discussing that but I guess the answer for us became obvious when we realized how horrified we would be if the girls had been caught singing those songs at their school.  It was like we had this dirty little secret at home that the girls had to keep and we realized that we could not allow them to be subjected to that kind of teaching.

For myself, if it means that my church maintains that love is the central teaching of Jesus and that there are many paths to the Spirit, then I am willing to sing the Gospel hymns of the South, the old hymns of the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s for the little old ladies and men in teh congregation, classical pieces and contemporary pieces.   

elizabeth

That is indeed a frightening story.  Perhaps calling it a Christian camp would be stretching the issue to the breaking point.

Shalom

Mate

We have a policy that allows free use of our church hall for youth groups, so the person responsible for hall rental rented our hall to a group of cadets for a gun safety training course.

When I heard of this, I got livid, and did everything I could to have this permisson revoked—and succeeded. I ruffled a few feathers, and one of the conservative members of our congregation said: "We never know when we may need these young men to defend our faith and God."

I couldn't believe what I heard: defending God and our faith with guns? That's what the Taliban and other terrorists do!, I thought.

Arminius

I would agree with that completely.

Shalom

Mate

I see you are really into the religion of it all. But if you follow bible scripture, you find that what you call the liberal church, is simply a church thats finely coming into compliance with the word of god. Let me explain. The bible states that we should praise god in the temple with the clapping of hands, playing organs and stringed instruments and that we should left our voices in praise. God said that he would visit a temple that does this. The bible also says that when praises go up, blessings descend upon us. so praise has a ping pong effect. blessings of healing, spiritual healing, physical healing, mental healing is released. why, because when we praise god, that is a confirmation that he is. It is believers standing on their faith on one accord, this is powerful. Therefore; what the liberal church is doing is not outside of scripture, it is finally teaching people that to worship god according to his word, is a celebration and a blessing. We are living in a very exciting time. Its not worship when we just sit in a church. maybe light a candle and feel nothing. worship is very much a high action word. It is simply mankinds need to label everything that gave birth to what is called the liberal church. really, There is not such thing. The believers in god are just on a high for jesus and is being displayed on every corner of this planet. There is a great revival going on. This is just a part of the last day movement. people are praising him because more and more they are finding out that they need god's presents in their lives. And the lord is doing what he promised in his word. He said that he would show up in spirit giving comfort and strength to his people in these evil days. And he is simple keeping that promise. The labels mean nothing...The love of god has been magnified. The bible says in the last days he would be closer to his people than he was in the time of noah and moses imagine, well he is. and its coming out in gospel music. church conventions, the venues are endless. remembering the objective of salvation. That all might come to repentance and none would perish. because the time is short and judgement is real. so get in on the party...

I think that the debate between liberal and conservative is not about worship style but more about the ability to offer a credible explanation of faith.  Liberal churches, especially those embracing "progressive Christianity" spend too much time refuting the Bible's authority and not enough time in developing a solid foundation for faith.  A house built on sand eventually fails as its foundation washes away.

Take a close look at our own UCC and it is so obvious that this is what is happening.  The "fruit" of the church is not found in growth or bringing new people into relationship with Christ because few, if any of the majority liberal-thinking ministers or congregants can give a credible explanation of why they are there.  Being on a spiritual journey, doing the dance, laughing together etc. may sound nice but offers no solid ground on which anyone can stand firmly in faith.

Conservative or evangelicals can at least articulate what they believe based on something other than a feeling.  That is why they are growing and that is why they are fulfiling the great commision.  Thankfully, there are those who have not abandoned the mainstream churches and are seeking to revive the reason that they exist in the first place, to be a center of life for all people.  A place that offers a credible and real faith life based in Christ for all people.

Actually THeodore there is a big difference.  THe problem in many mainline churches is that they are too conservative in the space and style of worship.  THe problem I have with so-called conservative churches is that their theology leaves me cold.   But many of those churches are much much more liberal when it comes to style and space.

I suspect that their willingness to explore the style/space makes them seem more open.  But for people whose church background is more mainline the theology will soon  be a turn-off.  OTOH, for the mainline folks there is much that many people find attractive in the theology and the willingness to explore and question.  But the fixation on traditional style gets in the wa

Ha! that is awesome!!!

Bolt

Yes, Tonton. The time is short and the judgement is real. But how do you know you are right? I am a lefty because I believe that the teachings of Christ make me a Lefty.

I am a thinking Christian and I practise my Christianity in the real world. Christ fed the poor, healed the sick, and defended the weak. He didn't hide in a church or synagogue telling God what a nice guy he is.

The apostle James wrote that actions, not words define a Christian. "Faith without works is dead". (II James , v17, paraphrased.)

"We do not presume to come to thy table trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercy ....." - from the Anglican Prayer of Humble Access.

Yes, yes, I know that feeling. However, I get it when I visit liberal churches. That cold, clammy, icky feeling.

Style is something, however, that is certainly not of prime importance to me. I have enjoyed worship in places ranging from a high Anglican church to a missional storefront Christian Reformed one.

Hence the argument that there is more than one path that can be taken to celebrate the sacred in life...cms

I've long suspected that the path we take depends on our personal psychology.

Chances are that if you're conservative by nature, you want to preserve, rather than modernise, your views on religion.

If you're open to change, and are generally more liberal in your ideas, this will be reflected in your religious views.

(Sometimes the packaging is confusing - I have seen fundamentalist young women singers sing to Jesus as if he was their lover, rather than their saviour.)

As I think our personal psychology determines to a large extent our faith path - I don't get too excited by what path is chosen - what is the "right" or "wrong" path.

Far better to just accept that the Lord moves in mysterious ways.