What did I do this time, or is the rule just that I'm open for attack at any random time.

 

Well, MC, your permanent crime is that you are a fundy.

 

(To clarify: "Fundy," to me, is an endearment. Moreover, it is a profound metaphor for us Canadians. Our Bay of Fundy has the highest and lowest tides in the world!)

 

 

Positive negative, light dark, out in,  and so on.

You are a very black and white kind of a guy Kyle. How can God exist in 330 millions forms and then also in 7, in 3 and then 1? This is not an "absurdity", this just requires an open mind.


How can light be both a wave and a particle? How can light break down into 3 primary colours and then into the 7 colours of the rainbow? Is this absurd thinking? No, it's the science of energy. There is no difference when describing God because we are still describing energy.


The Hindu breaks down their One Brahma into seemingly infinitesimal detail. Did they do it by counting them all? I doubt it. They more than likely did by the application of the "Law of Analogy", which has also been summed up in axiom "As above, so below". If you understand the small, then you have the keys to understanding the very large. Think fractals.


This is why man is made in the "image" of God, he is a microcosm of a great macrocosm, which in turn is a microcosm of an even greater macrocosm. This goes on forever. In my Fathers House, where we move and live and have our being, there are many mansions. From the atom to a man, from a man to the Planet, and from the Planet to the great Solar System, these are all organized units of a greater whole. The constant in this pattern is that the small make up a larger whole, which in turn makes up an even larger whole, ad infinitum. Think fractals.

Quite appropriate for the member with the largest personality swings in WC.

Neo - While many matters in this world are grey, there are also some which are definitely "black and white" - that is, true and not true. I would argue that you too believe this, since you seem to be saying that your conception of the divine is superior to mine, which is inconsistent within a relativistic framework. But if you say mine is equally valid to yours, then your belief is self-defeating, since mine, and many other religious people's views, believe your view to be blatantly false.

 

Instead, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask you to see how your viewpoint would respond to them.
1) Does God exist and not exist in reality at the same time? There are many people in both camps which strongly believe their beliefs to be true. Can both be right at the same time?

 

2) A specific example - Christians, Jews, and Muslims conceive of God in different ways. Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, and the saviour of humankind. Jews and Muslims both disagree, claiming he is not the Son of God - and in Islam, this difference in belief is enough to warrant hell.
Can all be right about God at the same time?

Ha, ha, ha... I hope you passed your course in philosophy Kile. {just kidding}. Btw, I'm not saying my conception of the divine is "superior" to yours. I just sayin', that's all.

Does God exist and not exist in reality at the same time. Hmmm... my personal take on this is "no", I think the sentient Energy we call God is always present with us. How can the shadow ever walk away from it's source, how can a son claim never to have had a father?

My personal take on this, and no doubt you'll find this radical and maybe even blasphemous but it is what it is, my personal take on this is that the man Jesus is a Master of Wisdom and a close disciple of the Christ, the Bodhisattva of the World.
Jesus allowed the Christ to work through him during the period between the Baptism and the Crucifixion. The Christ, on the other hand, is the World Teacher, the Saviour of all Mankind, and for this coming Age of Aquarius He is "the man bearing the pitcher of water". The Christ is the supreme head of the Spiritual Hierarchy. He is the Master of Masters. The Jews still wait for Him as "The Messiah", the Muslims know Him as "Imam Mahdi", Hindus are waiting for the reincarnation of "Krishna" and the Buddhists for the appearance of "Maitreya, the fifth Buddha".
So who's right and who's wrong? You tell me. They are all seeing the centre from their own point of view. Perhaps the fact that they are all waiting the same person may be the only thing that'll bring peace between the religions in the future.

 

PS
Nothing can "warrant" the hell that Christian and Muslim religions believe in.

"Just kidding" he says :) Let's see if I can effect something similar here...
Ha, ha, ha... based on what you've said here it is clear you have never taken a philosophy course Nio. {just kidding}

So you personally believe that something does in fact exist that could be called "God"...so you admit that those who do not believe in God as you conceive it are mistaken? Further, it is clear that you do uphold at least some doctrine about this "God," namely that it is a somewhat personal God which is "always present with us."

You never directly answered my question.

Neo, this statement reveals a lot of things. It shows that either you have grossly mischaracterized what the actual followers of these religions believe, or you have simply confabulated your own belief system by picking and choosing or plainly inventing it out of thin air. Second of all, you are claiming to see above all of the religions whom you have listed in order to be able to know such a thing...that you have a more 'enlightened' view than those whose views you are misrepresenting. Third, what reasons or "evidence" do you possess that persuades you to this position? And finally, from a guy who is calling out my logic above, I would expect more airtight reasoning, in recognizing that "a man, a ship, and a wall" cannot all be the same thing at the same time. Not all religions can be equally true, since their ideas of God all contradict each other. It is my belief that you are deceiving yourself, my man.

I don't know who is right and who is wrong. Of course, I personally believe Christianity to be true based on a number of good reasons, but I could be wrong. That you believe they are all waiting for the same person again reveals that you not only misrepresent their actual belief systems, but that you claim to stand above them all in order to see such a thing. You are saying that their doctrines are unimportant, while upholding your own doctrine about your "God." What I do know is that an honest look at these competing claims to truth and a little elementary logic raises at least a little alarm.

In your opinion? Or is this absolutely true? "Nothing" is a pretty strong word...you seem pretty convinced of this fact. In fact, if you knew what many Muslims and Christians believed based on their doctrines, you might not say this. Yet if you insist, it is yet another example of how you claim that their doctrines do not matter,  but that your perception is more true for knowing better.

An aside...admittedly, I am not the best evangelist, nor apologist for Christianity. If it seems I am attacking you personally Neo, I am not. I am cross-examining the claims which you have put forth in a straight-forward manner, because I am not a fan of beating around the bush. I understand that these are your personal beliefs which may be dear to you. Yet in this forum we are putting ourselves out there and challenging each others' views. You believe my beliefs to be 'black and white', and we can infer from this that this must be a bad thing, or at least not as good as your way of thinking. And so I also challenge your beliefs, in my own way.

Although Neo and I have different beliefs about Christ (I believe Jesus is Christ) and other things I am not bothered that his beliefs differ from mine because Neo is a kind, helpful person. That's what matters to me. Noone can know with absolute certainty whose beliefs are right or wrong- there are so many layers of history, of translations, of cultures and civilizations and experiences to wade through-and what's relevant in the here and now is the fruits of of our faith(s) that are important. Can we find common ground, can we work together? Or are we going to waste energy fighting about whose beliefs are right or wrong when we can't possibly know it all. I won't argue with a harmless belief to try to change someone from believing it. I am likely find a bone to pick if I can see it's doing harm or leading to harmful behaviour. Two simple commands: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love your neighbour as yourself. Those are the two phrases to live by. The rest is "commentary",(commentary, I belief, on how well we're doing at that). Everything hangs on how well we're doing at loving God and our Neighbour. Basically, if we'd followed the Holy Spirit all along and learned how to love one another, with open minds (you can't love with your whole mind if you let it be narrow) the world wouldn't be such a mess. But we're still here to learn that.

 

What did I do this time, or is the rule just that I'm open for attack at any random time.

[/quote}

 

I guess you don't like every kind of pie. I thought you were a big fan of pie. I thought you might enjoy some pie to go with your sandwiches. Sorry if you took it as an attack I thought I was making a funny. Apparently Geo didn't like the pie either.

 

 

 

 

Kimmio, it is true that we should find common ground and get along with others in life. However, it is not as easy when we are miles apart across the country and are posting behind avatars and computer screens. Here, we are putting forth our ideas, and agreeing or disagreeing, and as long as it is done in a way where we are not personally attacking each other, I think this is a good thing.

 

It is my view that it is very important what we believe about reality, which in turn will effect how we live, and which in turn will determine our ultimate destiny.

 

Still though, in your above comment, there are some things which require more thought. The statement "are we going to waste energy fighting about who's beliefs are right or wrong when we can't possibly know it all" is problematic because first of all, I dont think it is fighting, nor energy wasted. And second of all, the only way you can make the claim that we can't know it all is if you claim to know this more than others! But why not assess whose beliefs are more true than others, if they have eternal implications?

 

Moreover, you mentioned Christ's "greatest commandment" - that it is something everyone ought to live by. While I agree that it would be great, how would someone like Eric or chansen "live by" such a statement?

dreamerman - Even humble pie sounds great right now, as I have starved myself of carbs all week.

And by the way Kimmio, I would come to Ontario or wherever all you folks are posting from to hang out and enjoy each other's company in person anytime, as I have done in the past :)

In my opinion, from observation, there are non-Christians living out those commands better than some Christians, and even atheists who at least do the love your neighbour part better than some Christians and who care for life, which I believe God is the creator and source and totality of. So they don't need to hear it or be proven right or wrong if they're already living that way and their lives show it. If that's what's on their heart, and their conscience and what's important then they will live that way no matter what their religion.

I'm in BC - so's Neo. We're a whacky bunch out here. ;)

 

I can attest to that; I too am a BCer.

 

(On the left of Canada, when viewed from the south. Probably on the left of the faith spectrum as well :-)

 

Yes, Arm too. And a few others. :)

They don't get much wackier than on the Sunshine Coast.

Sweet! Vernon is my second home :) I've been there 6 times in the past 9 months.

 

32 degrees tomorrow? Cmon you guys!

It's not so much fighting as it is tedious after awhile I guess. It goes around in circles and can sometimes devolve into arguing- I've been guilty of it too. There's a lot of proving wrong trying to happen over "that's interesting. Tell me more about why you believe that." or, "I can relate to that aspect of what you're saying" and no, I don't believe any of us can know everything. Some have learned more than others.

Vernon- it's a ways from Vancouver but I'd go if I could plan ahead a bit.

I suppose that could've been funny if you had spelled my name correct. I actually haven't taken a philosophy course before but I know that with classic philosophy, they will argue that black is white when talking absolute truths. Philosophy like that always seemed pretentious to me.

Ok, so what is this, some courtroom here? Sounds I'm being interogated. Not a very good bed side manner for "discussion". You'd think the Spanish Inquisition just rolled into town again. I may need a lawyer if this keeps up.

Firstly, I haven't "grossly mischaracterized" anybody, these are your words. I also haven't "confabulated" these ideas up out of "thin air" either. You simply don't know me yet.


Secondly, I'm not claiming to be more "enlightened" than anybody, again these are your words. I am simply attempting to view Humanity a singularity in nature. Together as a whole, Humanity stands. Being aware at this level, I mean really "aware", is the Christ Consciousness, the "Christ in you", which is both the hope and the glory. And the amazing thing is, it's available to everyone, not just Christians!


Thirdly, what reason or "evidence" persuades me to this position? Well depending on your attitude, I may or may not tell you. You are very accusatory in nature when talking to people. I'm not on trial here, so bug off with the Perry Mason thing.


Lastly, I'm not "calling out your logic". Sheesh man, you have a thin skin. You said that you found it "absurd" that God could be in seen in both a Singularity and a Trinity, let alone all those millions of Hindu gods. I showed you a real world example of how light can be 1 light, made up of 3 primary colours and then further divided into a rainbow of 7 colours. All while there is still 1 light.


And what's with the "a man, a ship, and a wall" thing? We were talking about aspects of God, such as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva merging together into the One Godhead. Did you not get the "think fractal" hint?

If the doctrine is one of eternal damnation for all those who don't toe the party line, then "yes", I claim that these doctrines don't matter and my perception is more true. Since I can't say this is an "absolute" truth, then all I can say is that I absolutely believe this.


I will also add that one day soon these old doctrines will finally be put to rest forever as modern day science discovers the secrets of the so-called dark matter and energy. This will be the discovery of the soul, when just some of the secrets of heaven are manifest on earth. It will change everything, including our "concept" (our awareness) of physical death compared to the relative perfection of the immortal soul.

 

Hi Kyle:

 

Which church do you go to when you are in Vernon?

 

I am well prepared for the 32 degrees today. I kept the doors and windows open all night, chilling the house down to 16 degress.

 

Hermann - Vernon Alliance Church. Sometimes I meet another WC'er and her lovely family when there..."trishcuit" :) Maybe we can all meet sometime! I'll be back in July or Aug to splash around in Kal Lake.

 

Yes, it's a date! I wanted to meet trishcuit anyway. She hasn't posted in a while, I hope she's okay.

 

I L'uv Ur abstract nature ... something that just isn't ... when so many people are sure it's the other way ...

West Coast Crazies?

 

I have relatives out there that left me behind in the east as facing north I'yam "right" crazy because I think and the fundies tell me I'am not supposed to ... but time and tilde ~~ prove them wrong in the Bae Bi ... the flush effect ... catharsis!

 

Almost  bi dEþT (marc twain; 12 foots) can even clean up a crappy donkey ... then the time and tides do produce energy without even thinking about it ... I believe ... but perhaps I'm wrong! After knocking on god ... I know how chi comes and goes ... never consistent ... like the wayward wind! Quantum observation or just simple science?

 

Even a thunderbolt is something worth being cautious about trying to control ... Ben Franklin was just damned lucky with heis key trick in deep space at night in a storm ...

"It may or may not be okay."

 

These are the kind of irrational definitives I like to approach before poking someone that feels certain about things that are the basis of uncertitude ... like Clean and the e'cle guise ... Eagle in another spelling that is sometimes taken as a naked Jah burd ...

 

Then only two peoples in the world had difficulties with the irrational concept of nothing and infinite.

 

Is it strange that these were conservative romantics (tories, or brahmans?) or powerful minds about what they would be stoic about (judai'n)? Some peoples even believe that the Hebrew offspring believed in the devil as they found the written word devilish or quite ambiguous to understand without some flexibility in understanding ...

 

This is a GUI sense if you happen to be dealing with a mental fixation ... a mind bloc ... or just block-head? Leaves us shunned folk (outliers) giggling about the view from the exterior ... or beyond (myth) what those inside the rectilinear tube is fixated upon ... a spitted porker? Perhaps the myth of that Eastern European fellow that liked to impale his fellow man? That Vlad-ish fellow ... thus the expression of the pale hoers ... a carrier? Could simply be a yeoman ... a stable boy in the Wizard of ID. If you happen to be in the middle as medium they don't like you being stable type ... very difficult to redact ...

 

For us used to mess'n with word the mind is a snap to poke at ... and IT loves the attention ... it may even work for you in communications ... what is a type of alien intercourse ... as a proof of the use of metaphor in the confusion of fixations!

So Kyle, we still talking? I also came back a rough too, not so much the "nice guy" that Kimmio said I was. {wink}


And yea I understand that you're not an "evangelist" or a Christian "apologist". In fact, you're more like a Christian "advocate", just without the apologies, ha, ha, ...again, {wink}.
I was actually wondering if you were a missionary? What are you taking in school?


Anyways, no hard feelings I hope. I don't mind discourse and debate, but "cross-examining" is not how people talk with friends in a coffee shop. It's kind of intimidating.

One hast O'joust a bit ... like poke'n the Pie GUI's ... spitting the porker? Hawg wild if yah get a good one ... you may avoid Tri Chi Nu Sis! It is an a'cyst function ...

 

Can be hard on the heart as once started you may end up with extra responsibilites to have reverence for ... something that butt-end capitalism doesn't give a crap about!

La kai in the 'bout, were eve' yore can no roust a'bout the round.

Gnoques the edges off the cubits!

Hey Neo,

No worries my friend. I definitely did not take anything personal and I am generally hard to offend in that way. Sorry I haven't responded...it's wildfire season here in AB and I've been very busy! I'll get back to ya when I can :)

Kyle

PS - I am not a missionary. When I graduate from Uni, I hope to be a meteorologist and TV weather presenter :)

Arminius, Trishcuit is fine, I just emailed her.

 

What? Wildfire season? It was still winter there a week ago.

 

Weather is a big issue in Alberta, eh? Fluctuating, as it does, from one extreme to the other. (The weather, I mean, not the province. It is B.C that fluctuates politically :-)

 

 

Thanks, Elanorgold.

 

Wildfire season?

 

You mean things could evolve?

 

That could screw up HG-ESS  fixations on stoicism!

 

Thus we move on and the followers get Piscine mad at loch'n at our buttes!

 

Does light on the dark situation cause redaction?

 

Only the Shadow knows ... a dark Shining! Like a Black lass!

 

Yes, Neo-Christianity is spreading like wildfire.

You okay there bud?

Hermann, indeed the weather fluctuates a lot here, which is what makes it interesting. All of the snow has recently melted, so there is a lot of dead, matted grass, and the sap hasn't really starting flowing up into the trees yet...then we have sun, 25C, wind, and 15% humidity...and bam!

Geo,

I've never been OK, so I've bin told ...

 

Then there is a theory if you believe your crazy you're probably not, and if you believe you're not crazy you're wrong. How can one not be crazy in this world ... did you ever seriously look about yah? Some people will not go there .... involves and exterior perspective and there are those that just won't goth Eire ... too out-of-IÐ (an ancient expression of S'elf) or a type of myth about the beyond and getting a grasp of it. This is something we are told by authorities we are not to know.

 

If we are conditioned not to know and be in a perpetual state of innocence about all-that-is ... can you figure on who benefits most from our departure from the way of knowledge as a Leviathon Theory? We call it Leviathon for it has huge implications for the in-humane race ... is that p'unnie*?

* I left out the "h" as a silent icon of funny; the dark farce ID of God; a general indeterminate to mortals. Odd that many can't get the grasp of such peculiar expressions.

 

...in a vacuum.

Consider the collapse of material things ... something for the non-material to contemplate as mind over matter?

 

Ah, but then contemplation is contemptable; right?