CC - I totally agree that a new forum on church life would be helpful. As much fun as it is engaging the resident atheists around here, I often find the discussion tedious as the same issues are returned to, without the possibility of ever resolving them. Sometimes it's a joy just to worship without having to justify why you are doing so.

Anyhow, yes I absolutely agree that all the paperwork involved in getting copyright, especially with VU and MV can be overwhelming, and certainly a disincentive to do anything creative.  There has been some thought given, apparently, to what you have suggested. However, some writers are making at least part of their living from the royalties (eg. in one copy of Gathering, Linnea Good said that 1/3 - I think - of her income comes from there). That means needing to identify usage. But it still doesn't excuse not having copyright on some of the other songs.  I have to say that one of the reasons I started writing my own hymns was because of the frustration with getting copyright (another was that despite all the songs available to us, there are still many things we would like to say in song but can't because the lyrics and music just aren't there. If you have suggestions for hymn topics, please feel to send them my way.  I have several orphan melodies waiting for a subject.). (BTW, one of my songs can be found in the Advent issue of Gathering - and no copyright search needed, although I must confess that it's nice to know who is using your stuff.)

Vent away.

I am tired of having to hunt for this crap too.  Poeple need to use stuff and creators need to be compensated, but must it be so darn impossible?

We do not, to the best of my knowledge, have any agreements with copyright license holders. We are small and no doubt it is not feasible.

We don't do it for songs, we just use the hymnal and the only copies are for a visually impaired person. Well, other than song sheets for singalongs outside church... Hmmm? 

Yet, I  have to be aware of what is "borrowed" words in prayers. I have to check whether it is plagarized, not credited or adapted... It is a real pain. Can't the person speaking be made more accountable? Maybe they are and nobody has chosen to tell me  LMAO

Oh I agree, spiritbear -- I would still be totally willing to record my usage, to make sure that the $$ is going to the right folks.  I just want it to be easier to do!  I'm fantasizing about a special UCC webpage where I'd just type in my five hymn #s, and be done in 10 seconds....

Which song is yours?  Let me guess, you're Allan Baer?  lol -- great wondercafe name for you!  Great song as well -- I'll ask my musician to play it for me on Sunday!

shalom

Hmm... well... with CCLI (Canada), One Licence, LicenSing, and Public Domain, I figure we've got about 90% of the lyrics in Voices United and More Voices covered. Someof the others I've contacted the publishers, who have responsed with, "Thanks for asking, please use it without cost, and don't feel the need to ask again."

*chuckle* I sat down with my hymn book and colour coded all of the hymns as to our congregation's copying privilidges. Made life easier.

Having said that, it would be a heck of a lot easier if there could be a central repository for permission, like you've suggested, Clergychicquita.

Christ's peace  - r

Hey RevBott -- this chick would appreciate the list of hymns for which you were told to "go ahead and don't ask again"!  wondermail me if it's convenient!

Perhaps we could find some UCC $$ to pay you to type all that colour-coded into onto a webpage?

PS  I laugh at how my wondername gets spelled -- shall I hand out bananas at church?  lol

If anyone has copyright questions about Voices United, the place to start is on p.976. There is all the copyright information you need, including addresses of copyright holders. I have used thos addresses in the past and they are still valid. What it takes is a longer planning cycle, however.

In the case of the Psalms, the copyright is held by the United Church. I have, in the past, requested permission to copy from the GCO and never been refused. Again it takes planning.

All of this is the main reason why we don't have any copyright licenses. We don't copy them in the bulletin, nor do we project the hymns (we also have way too much ambient light in the sanctuary). Hymn books are still useful.

If the number isn't listed on p. 976ff in VU, it's in the public domain.

For me, the killer is less about permissions for reprinting lyrics. (And, yes, ClergyChick, I'll email you my lists.)

It's getting the appropriate permissions & (reproduction, recording, etc. etc. freakin' etc.) rights, so that I can podcast the entire service. While services like LicenSing cover reproducing lyric and score, no one covers all of the rights necessary to do that. So, for each song we want to have in a podcast, I need to find the appropriate right holder (who may not actually be the copyright holder of record.)

Bleh. Bleh, bleh, bleh.

Christ's peace - r

Richard, check the Copyright Act. You're covered as it is used in worship. You can't reproduce the words or music in a bulletin, but you can record and broadcast a worship service. We do it regularly on radio and have for years. The Copyright Act hasn't caught up with podcasts and internet distribution, yet.

I'm still of the post-copyright generation.  I ask myself a simple question - is what I am planning to do a way of avoiding paying for it?  If so, then I'm in the wrong.  If not, then I don't worry about it. 

I highly doubt that the concept of copyright is going to survive for much longer.

There is no such thing as a "post-copyright generation". As long as the capitalist system exists, there will always be people seeking compensation for their creative work and thieves who will try to justify not paying for what they use.

Well, let's just hope the abomination of greed and abuse that is capitalism dies soon, then.

CC - Oh no, I've been "outed"!  Does that have any consequences?

But to the matter at hand, the tragedy of copyright and the church is that by not wanting to deal with a potential quagmire, many churches use this as an excuse not to try anything new.  And I see such congregations as the servant who was given one "talent" and hid it in the ground.  The talents we have been entrusted and need to nurture are not only those of hundreds of  years ago. As has been pointed out here, services like LicenSing are good starts, but despite the large number of registered artists, I think there are still issues about how songs get selected (or rejected) as part of the service. And I'd be surprised if amateur work is represented. Maybe an idea would be a UCC clearinghouse that would start as an online-accessible body of amateur songs (or other liturgy components).  Such a system might turn out to be a big way that many church musicians could become aware of what alternative music is available, which right now is a big stumbling block.

Iteresting.

There is right now, a gospel music submission going on right now to seek new talent & material I guess for new inspirational music for worship is something most churches desire to generate.

Singing the same worship music can get boring after awhile.

I guess it's a good idea to copywrite one's music before submitting it, eh?

Bolt

Why should the United Church do what private programs like LicenSing do already and do very well? After all, what is our core mission? I doubt it is to act as a music copyright agent.

And not all congregations want to try new music all the time. Our congregation chooses not to use More Voices for a whole variety of reasons. That's the privilge of the congregation, isn't it?

DKS said "Why should the United Church do what private programs like LicenSing do already and do very well"

Because there are some things these programs don't do well.  Access by artists is one issue. And services like this are essentially for securing copyright permission, and not for broadening awareness of available resources. Every month, Gathering magazine has a music section with new music that can be tried out. But there's no central repository where past submissions can be reviewed and adopted.  (And I would really like to be able to sample something before adopting it).  DKS, what I read from your statement (probably unjustifiably) is that the central church has no business in helping provide congregations with music (and other) resources. That's where we would disagree. To my mind, any central church organization that fails to do so makes itself unnecessary.

Hi, DKS -

I think that the religious exemption in the Canadian Copyright Act might be a bit narrower than what you've suggested...

It gets even murkier when C-42 defines "communication signal":

What we've been told by a copyright lawyer, is that neither broadcasting nor podcasting is covered by this exemption. As best as I can get it (though my brain gets spinning when I listen to the explanations ), when a worship services is broadcast, the radio station's CANCOM, SOCAN, etc. agreements cover various reproduction/mechanical/performance rights.

With podcasting, the responsibility falls on the church to get these rights... for all the pieces... *sigh*... every week.

I really want to make sure that the artists / producers / copyright holders get their due - sometimes, trying to do that is impossible with the amount of time I have to focus on worship.

Christ's peace - r

I would like to just add this. A very gracious song writer ( who has music in Voices United) told me that for her, the music is what is important and if that is the piece you need - use it. But I know all songwriters don't feel this way.      

That advice flies in the face of c(iii).

Quote:

As best as I can get it (though my brain gets spinning when I listen to the explanations ), when a worship services is broadcast, the radio station's CANCOM, SOCAN, etc. agreements cover various reproduction/mechanical/performance rights.

I'l ask our local radio station. I know the GM there well.

I wonder. Podcasting is not covered by the current laws. It's not a "radio wave".

You are right. I don't believe such matters are part of our core business. That's what we have (or should have) church musicians for. They do a far, far better job in finding and testing music that I (or any denominational structure) could ever do. That's one of the reasons our church musician has a) a budget and b) time and money for continuing education. In one small, rural two point charge I served  the church musician went to one event a year, for a week at the charge's expense. She brought home all kinds of music to sample, which she then tested with the choir and they made their choices.

You're lucky, DKS -- I served a 6 point rural charge and another 2 point charge, and not a single one of those 7 musicians brought new music to the congregation (even the 2 out of the 7 who went to con ed events) -- I was always the one to say "let's try something new" and that was only stuff from VU, MV or Seasons of the Spirit!  My current musician is the first one I've worked with in 11 years that does more than just accompany my picks on Sundays.

shalom

Ah-yup... that's what I thought, too. Doesn't seem to be the case.

I am *really* looking forward to hearing about your conversation! :)

Christ's peace - r

I'm curious. Do most UCC congregations have a music director or at least a staff musician? I'm thinking especially of small congregations comparable to my UU fellowship (which has just over 100 members). For reasons of size and budget, we just hire pianists who are students in/graduates of the local Faculty of Music (the Don Wright School at UWO). Pay is per Sunday and they generally divide up the Sundays in a month as evenly as possible. They pick their own music for preludes and postludes but picking hymns is done by whoever is leading the service. They are quite good (our new pianist won two competitions at the school last academic year), but neither of our current dynamic duo is UU and neither is involved in the congregation outside of playing a couple Sundays a month, although we include them in the community as best we can (promoting their concerts, having a celebration after church when one got married in the spring, having a send-off party for a previous pianist who moved away this summer, and so on). Are there United Churches like this, or is having a single, paid staff musician the norm?

Mendalla

In rural charges, sometimes it is just someone who can play an organ or piano or kinda sorta play or muddle through. It can be mostly about just playing what is picked. Though, often the tune has to be adjusted because they can't play it any other way. You count your blessings that you have anyone. Then again, sometimes you get blessed  =) We have wonderful organists,  from "quite the resume" to "play by ear" and they both are fantabulous!

on my six point charge not a single musician was paid, some were grand and others were awful.  One had a lovely 85+ yr old woman with arthritis who used a pump organ!  and she played the same four hymns at almost every service (twice a month).  Each musician chose their own music, as each church had a different hymnbook.   Not ideal!  :)

Even in urban charges, musicians are not paid very much, and often are more accompaniest than music director.  Usually music is picked by the minister and musician working together and consulting the scriptures, themes, etc, as well as deciding how to introduce new music, and help the congregation learn it well over time.

My current musician is paid per Sunday, with an expectation of prep time and practice with the "choir."

shalom

Today, I'm lucky. Thiry years ago I started ministry on a seven point pastoral charge (second largest Charge in the UCCAN; the largest then was eight points). Three of the points points had pump organs and musicians old enough to be my grandmother. I buried one of them while I was there. She haunted the organ at that funeral.  We had four different hymn books, including the Hymnary.  All but one was a volunteer. I shut up, listen to them and learned a whole lot of old gospel hymns with what I thought then was poor theology. Today, that means I know a lot of hymns to sing in nursing homes. Some days that is enough.

Depends on the community. We (urban, single congregation, pipe orhan) have an excellent organist who is paid for 15 hours/week. And she earns it. Smaller, rural congregations often have whomever they can find.

Again, it depends. Our organist is paid well and is a member of the Group Insurance Plan. She gets the same raises are the rest of the staff and study leave.  I choose the hymns, however. She lets me know if they don't work.

Not funny, but I am cracking up, gosh I am a twisted one... I recall an organist, about 80+ at the time. Ex-chain smoker with COPD using a pump organ. Fits of hacking and then the laughing as the kids watched a lugey sail. She would miss the que to play and just sit there. She was mostly deaf, and always looked down revertly like she was lost in prayer (maybe sleeping). Soooo deaf, you could not get her attention without choosing to either yell,  personally go over to her or have a choir member tap her. Then she would have no idea where you were and start playing something you just did or that was way ahead. Darn I miss her. She would have laughed her arse off with me tonight and we would have had a scotch together and maybe she could have played for ya'll....