Is this particular UCCAN church more like the evangelical church across town or more like the other UCCAN congregations (theologically)?  I'm not sure that it is wrong one way or another - more of a backhand slap...cms

No this UCCAN is not evangelical at all.

Crazyheart - I don't know whether it is ethical or not, but I certainly would wonder why they were doing it.  With three other UCC's to choose from, I would certainly expect that they would promote one or all of them before promoting another denomination that's theology is quite different from the majority of UCC.

As a parent, now a grandparent, I would be very concerned about my child attending some Vacation Bible school programs put on by other denominations.  If, say, a friend invited them and they really wanted to go, I would make sure that I talked to them every day about what they had done or learned and discuss it with them - how did they feel, what do they think, how does our church think differently.

Of course some UCC's just buy whatever curriculum is most colourful, available, and easy to use and don't worry about the content or theology behind it - so I also talk to them about what they learn in the UCC.

Greetings!

Interesting scenario, crazyheart . . .

Are each of the 3 that are running well attended or have to turn away children?  If they aren't well attended or full, it would seem to be a mis-use of resources (human as well as curriculum, props, etc).

That doesn't make much sense to me, unless this particular UCC is not aware others are running a vacation bible school.

Don't get me started on the Lego bible stories - I checked out two, and from what I saw am wondering if the site is a joke (or slam against the bible).  It would make most sense to me that they should promote the other UCC holding a vacation bible school.  Doesn't mean they can't advertise the other one alos, but they should at least mention the UCC one.

If they advertise it (along with the UCC vacation bible schools) and any others that may be taking place in the community or area, then it could be seen as an ecumenical endeavor.  I don't think this particular UCC should try and host one if they do not having willing, excited, commited volunteers (again a mis-use of resources).  If they want to do something they could perhaps come up with an event that they have enough people to put on and something different that would attract a different group of children/persons.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

It was also said that it was too expensive to run one of their own. To look at this for a minute, I hosted a Vacation Bible school at a UCCAN with a half a dozen committed folk, support for snacks etc from the congregation, and no glitzy curriculum. There are many, many resources in the church that do  not entail buying a $200.00 curriculum. But it does take some time and committment from the people involved to host a worthwhile event.

Hi Crazyheart - I'd be interested in hearing their response if you give them a call & ask about it ... perhaps they have a good reason. 

In my community, a very active Baptist church runs a large and very successful day camp programme in a city park, and in their church on rainy days.  It's a camp programme, originally created to provide employment for their own youth.  It's not a religiously based programme.  It is almost always filled to capacity & is very well respected for compasionnate, well organized, fun programmes for kids.

carolla, and this just may be the case. I will give them a call.

 I'd share my homemade programs with them.  Then it is cheap cheap cheap.  The biggest 'cost' is enough volunteers.

I believe they should be promoting the other UCCs, and could still offer info about the other one if people are asking.  But I am surprised they chose the other denomination over the UCC.

if it is a competitive response, that is entirely unethical.  No room for that in the UCC.

I don't see why they would tell their congregation to enroll with a completely different sect, especially one that would differ so much from the UCC. I couldn't say either way if it's a bad ethical choice, but it does seem like a pretty bad logical choice.

ok, well, we dont' use the homegrown variety, and did by the glitzy.

i must admit, i am a fan of the apparent glitzy.

It was evangelical? lutheran and had a good balance of stewardship & male/female role models.  Reasonable messages, as well.

I did the story telling, and was comfortable with the messages, just expanded a bit into the midrash.

The glitzy included such things as

on-line registration capability & scheduling, including resources.

It was simple and yet solid and the kids had a blast.

I looked at some of the other programs, and to be honest, it was just too much time for the amount of volunteer time we have available. 

having done that little rant in support of solidly put together programs being purchased..

I would hope that yes, that they do support the other united churches. In fact, I would wonder why they wouldn't join forces and say, heh, let's make sure we have a good mix of weeks and day / evening programs.

ok, well, we dont' use the homegrown variety, and did buy the glitzy.

i must admit, i am a fan of the apparent glitzy.

It was evangelical? lutheran and had a good balance of stewardship & male/female role models.  Reasonable messages, as well.

I did the story telling, and was comfortable with the messages, just expanded a bit into the midrash.

The glitzy included such things as

on-line registration capability & scheduling, including resources.

It was simple and yet solid and the kids had a blast.

I looked at some of the other programs, and to be honest, it was just too much time for the amount of volunteer time we have available. 

having done that little rant in support of solidly put together programs being purchased..

I would hope that yes, that they do support the other united churches. In fact, I would wonder why they wouldn't join forces and say, heh, let's make sure we have a good mix of weeks and day / evening programs.

 I have no problem with glitzy either, just theology, so I am careful with that, but glitzy can be found with decent messages.

And I'm also a big fan of renovating glitzy things to suit.  But we've done well with homegrown stuff.

Last year, we did Planet Rescuers, and it had an Indiana Jones sort of appeal - very green/justice oriented.

This March Break we're doing "Building People of Peace".

Right, some of the songs gave me a bit of a challenge, but when I looked at what bothered me, well , I could spin most of them. It's a nice balance, in a way, as it reminds me we are a diverse congregation.

This is probably another thread (and honestly, is one I would rather do in a chat in emerging spirit...argh)

So I guess this really raises questions about volunteers, committment and apathy to do programming in SOME ( not all churches) I know people are busy but then you hear them say "Why don't  we have something for kids in the summer or Easter Break.?" But when asked to help, you hear the negative response.

Maybe we have to to do an intentional learning and teaching experience for these congregants through many avenues ( sermons, CE and Worship workshops etc)

Sorry, I really do not have the answer.

well, ch, it is also good stewardship of resources.

We are using volunteers -->  they will take a week off work to volunteer in VBS, and lead the program.

We chose to spend  to buy the programming which includes age appropriate material, supply lists, guides, forms, etc, rather than use the scarce volunteer hours in the logistics and programming as well. 

You know, it's kind alike a survey. I am currently playing with a free on-line survey tool.  Now, I could print out a hundred forms, mail them out, collect them manually, enter the data (yeah, right), save the data somewhere, then figure out various reports over it.

or...

I can create an on-line survey, email it out, and get all of that automatically.

Which do you think is better?

Note: i know I have to also get the results from those who don't get the email..but...that is a lot less as time goes by.

Note: i know I have to also get the results from those who don't get the email..but...that is a lot less as time goes by.

It's wonderful. The children will benefit greatly by going to the evangelical VBS. Some of them may even become followers of Jesus! They will bring back with them the good news of salvation in Jesus to their parents and to the United Church from whence they came. It's quite a joyous thing, really. Hopefully, the UC may even leave it's current denomination and join us on the evangelical side of things. Glory be to God!

Well, Jubilee, I am glad that you said it because this is what I am afraid of.

Jubilee - that is why I would talk to my children, discuss the theology of what they were learning, ask them what they think and let them know what I think.  I would be very, very concerned if I thought that another church was not respecting my children's Christianity and trying to influence my children away from the religion that they follow at home and in their home church. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Summary:

"fantastic, we can brainwash gullible young minds to believe this crap so that in old age we don't feel all alone in church".

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what is known as backhanding your brother across the face, in God's name.

Way to show us Christian love Jubilee

Alright..........I've exercised restraint for a few days on this one, but I'm bustin'.

Yes, I view any indoctrination of children to any religious nonsense is, as Dawkins has raised our awareness, a form of child abuse.

There is no absurdity, however palpable, which cannot be firmly implanted in the minds of all, if only one begins to inculcate it before the early age of six by constantly repeating it to them with an air of great solemnity. For the training of man, like that of animals, is completely successful only at an early age. (Arthur Schopenhaur)

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Which is why I discuss religion with my children and encourage them to think for themselves and decide for themselves what is valid to them.  It is also why I am not in the least concerned that my 11 year old granddaughter tends to question everything and is probably an agnostic at this time in her life.  She also enjoys church as well as school, dance, and friends, and often rebells against her family.  In other words a healthy thinking pre-teen.

This is exactly why I would never consider sending my children to a fundamentalist VBS under any circumstances.  How utterly inappropriate to suggest to children that your church/faith is correct and theirs is not.

I totally agree with  you specialmom. And as an aside Jubilee - you scare me.

Your opinion is noted

What's the title of this thread Einstein?

You're not real clear on the whole concept of polite discussion, are you? Subtle hints kind of breeze right over your head too.

But thank you for the compliment anyways, although physics and math aren't really my forte'. I suppose that's why I took my degree in biology.

Witch:  "Hello, kettle?

Star Stuff:  "Yes."

Witch:  "This is the pot.  You're black."

And then they can all just be told to drink the purple koolaid.

Guilty as charged

The only thing I would say is that the parents should have been told about every VBS available and then it's up to them to decide. Of course kids will tend to want to go where their friends go anyway if they can.

 indoctrination comes from an authoritative figure offering 'the right information' and then making sure that message is all that is acceptable

I am scratching my head in wonder at how the programs offered by progressive christians, as we have all discussed time & again here this past 2 weeks, are indoctrination.  

I've been accused of not providing any answers, and watering down my Christian message in favour of peace, love & justice.  Just because I work it around stories including bible stories doesn't change good learning into indoctrination.  Jubilee might be one of those critical people.

A favourite church-sign slogan of mine (coined by a friend) is "if you have answers, we've got questions"

ya know.... by defnition... the scientific method is indoctrinated in all working scientists. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

So if there were Mormon and JW VBS's in the area, that should have been announced too? What about Hindu or Sikh V'B'S? Wiccan? Secular humanist? Satanist? Republican?

Heh, that reminded me of this:

http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/Paddywacked/?action=view&current=BumperStickers42.jpg

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Yes, seeler, as would I. As would I.

Yes, I understand that you feel that way.

Nevertheless, some churches teach the truth, some do not.

This is something I say from personal experience.

When I was a child my family attended a fairly large United church in Toronto. They taught all kinds of wonderful things. They told us God loved us, we should all love one another, God wanted us to take good care of the planet, etc.

They also failed to teach us the truth: that we are doomed if we do not trust in Jesus to save us from our sins.

Thankfully, years later I came to know of my sinful state, and I accepted Jesus into my heart. Praise be to God.

That's why I want children to know the truth from an early age. The sooner they escape from hell the better.

Really? Why? I'm such a cute and lovable guy.

Satanists have Vacation Bible Schools? I had no idea.

Apparently you are some what confused about the difference between "the truth' and a claim of truth; Unless you have some objective evidence to show that what those Churchs taught was in error, and what you happen to espouse is "the" truth?

No?

Nothing?

Not even one bit of objective evidence to support your claim that they are teaching error?

Wow, I would have thought at least you, true Christiaan that you are, would be following your own Bible regarding false witness...

So in essence you really have nothing other than your own personal beliefs to support your contention that you have the truth and they do not.  And yet you have the Gall to stand up all puffy and proud on your soapbox and declare them to be wrong. Interesting

Unless your wrong, of course, in which case you might be sending them directly TO hell, or worse, into religious bigotry with you.

Still, one has to ask, still, does your desire to have these children "saved" extend only to your own skin, or would you teach children this "truth" without first obtaining their parent's permisssion?

Sure, it's where they teach their children about the Satanic Bible.

Well I guess if you want to announce there's a pig roast down the street to a jewish congregation, go for it.

Fallacy of shifting the goal posts.

I'm asking you to clarify YOUR statement please. I want to know if you REALLY belive that all VBS should be advertised, or if you just want to give the Evangelicals a chance to hunt the UCC's children.

I, sir, go by the Bible. I believe you are familiar with the book. If not, you may read it online here: http://www.biblegateway.com

Puffy? Proud? No. Rather, I am quite humbled by God's amazing grace, the only answer for the sinner.

Yes, indeed.

===

I am familiar with it, thank You. So the short answer is, No, you don't have any objective evidenceto support you claim of "the" truth.  of course that makes your claim spurious and meaningless, but at least we know.

Yes the false humility is usually the second half of that particular ploy. Still spurious claims of truth you cannot support are usually the result of hubris, or foolishness. You choose. Oh wait, you just did.

Before I comment, I want to make sure I am understanding what you intended to say here. 

Grammatically, what you have answered is that you would teach this to children, without obtaining their parents permission. Is that what you intended to say?

But of course. Did Jesus not say, "Let the children alone, don't prevent them from coming to me. God's kingdom is made up of people like these." (Matthew 19:14b, MSG)

We who follow Jesus are to go out into all the world and spread the good news that sins can be forgiven through faith in Jesus. Last time I checked, children were part of that world.

So you would actjally indoctrinate chidren into your religion, even against the wishes of their parents.

Interesting.

Aside from my suspicion that might well be illegal, in which case I will be reporting you to admin for advocating crime, I find it very... illuminating.

One of the things we Witches have been consistently accused of  by Evangelicals over the years, is indocrinating children in Witchcraft against their parents permission. Of course we don't do that. We believe in parental rights. I do find it interesting that the very thing you accuse us of, which we don't do, is the thing that you actually do.

I cannot think of a better example of hypocrisy.

To the others here in the forum, if anyone has any legaal knowlege, can you answere my question? Is it illegal to attempt to indoctrinate a child into a religion without their parent's permission?