Do you think spiritual identity is something pretty stable (consistent) or something that's always changing?   everchanging

Have you always identified your religon the same throughout your life, or have you gone through a series of changes to your viewpoint?  significant changes

If you have changed your religious views, what factors have contributed to that change?  

Multiple factors:

becoming aware, age, rebellion, peers, community, life situation, study, faith experiences, new communities, small groups, books, worship experiences, chaos

Just interested in getting to know people and getting a discussion going :)

Good to meet you....what brings you here, how did you find wondercafe? what are your thougths on spirituality and faith?

Hi Modern Girl - nice to see you here :)

Good qeuestions - absolutely, spiritual identity is designed to grow & change - the key word is "transform" - because we are changed as we come to know "God" and what that means for us.  We are changed as we experience our world and the people in it (good & bad).  

My religious views have evolved, but not in a full-stop, about-face way that some people here have experiences.  I have learned history of the bible, other faiths, of the church (RC & others) and so have discovered faith that doesn't require literal truth & doctrines.  

Thanks for responding!

I found this site through a website ad on a Canadian newspaper website. It appealed to me because I've been working on a blog about my personal spiritual journey since last August.

I definitely think spiritual identity changes - I'm just not sure about the nature of change. Sometimes it feels like I'm going through separate "stages" and within each stage I hold a distinct viewpoint. Other times I feel like I'm in a constant state of change, in which nothing is certain.

I'm not overly interested in partaking in the black & white debates that I saw on the discussion bored (can women be pastors? does faith depend on the afterlife? is this right or wrong?) because I think those types of discussions just polarize people and don't really benefit anyone's growth or knowledge. I'd be really interested in developing some intriguing mindful discussions that aren't seeking a yes/no answer or a two-side debate.

Other than that, I'm excited to see what this website is all about :)

Modern Girl

Welcome.  I am relatively new here but from what you have said you've come to the right place.

I was raised a very staunch fundamentalist/pluralist.  When I began to think for myself and study formally I began to change and grow.  The word transformation is the best one I can think of. 

I don't believe that anyone has a direct handle on the truth.  For that matter I don't believe there are any black and whites.  All is shades of grey.

Shalom

Mate

Hello moderngirl......God bless you..

God is a Life Style...We Seek A Christ Mind/Consicousness...

We Search and Seek out God so He Can Reveal to Us that

He is Indeed Living...The Word Became Flesh...be the Word...

Loving, kind, peaceful, patient, forgiving, healing, wise, knowledgeable

My blog page teaches more of the One Lord God. Jesus the Son of God...Holy Spirit...http://godstherealthing@blogspot.com

Modern Girl

You're going to think I'm nuts but I incorporate all religions including lots of New Age into my beliefs. I don't have fixed beliefs. Yes, my beliefs have changed tremendously over the years. My concept or idea of God is gigantic so God is in all; no problem. God is within people and also the Other. God is the ocean and we are the droplets or the waves in the ocean. God may be the universe ( I don't know) or God may be us ourselves. The possibilities are endless because nobody can really define God. I think adjectives may best describe God such as beauty, goodness, mercy, kindness. love etc. I don't think God is a spirit in the sky looking down on us. God is here in the midst of us as spirit.

Welcome to the Cafe

Something that is always changing.

Through a series of changes although I still cling to the vestiges of the Tao of Pooh (that's Winnie for those that don't know).

Life.

LB

Does Minnaloushe know that his pupils
Will pass from change to change,
And that from round to crescent,
From crescent to round they range?
Minnaloushe creeps through the grass
Alone, important and wise,
And lifts to the changing moon
His changing eyes.
William Butler Yeates, The Cat And The Moon

Hello Modern Girl and welcome to WonderCafe.ca.

I don't think of these options as being mutually exclusive.  For myself I think that I have been fairly consistent and yet, there has been progression along a certain tangent of Christianity.

I was baptized Presbyterian and my very early faith formation would have been within the Presbyterian tradition.  From the age of six on I have been a member of The United Church of Canada but I still tend to gravitate towards the Calvinist roots of our Presbyterian Heritage.

Some of that has been influenced by my studies and some of that was shaped by the interpretations I laid on scripture through my own reading of it.  Finding Calvinism simply helped me to articulate better what I had, for the most part, already come to believe.

Even though I can apply those labels I'm not stagnant in my faith.  The Reformation principle of "The Church reformed and always reforming" means that I am constantly exploring and testing and weighing everything available to me.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Modern Girl - welcome to the WonderCafe!  We're always happy to see eager new faces, especially when they have new perspectives to share.

I think that spiritual identity is always moving, but I see revjohn's point about being constant/consistent.  I was not so consistent when I was younger, and went through a - well, it wasn't a FULL OUT rejection of Christianity, but what I like to call a - side-trip that helped me understand my own spirituality a bit better.  I very much enjoy the place of nature and mysticism in the divine, so my adolescent self was fascinated by pagan mythology and rituals. 

I never really left the church while I explored the side-roads, but became more focused on exploring my Christian side after I'd grown up a bit.  The biggest question for me during University is "Why Christianity?  What has it got that no one else does?".  Once I got that worked out, I dove in completely, and here I stand, a believer never afraid to doubt her faith. 

I hope you find what I've found here - a place where it's easy to share an open mind, and those who support you for having one.  Welcome, again, to the Cafe!

Stardust,

I definitely do not think you're crazy! I find that extremely interesting, and trust me, my own spiritual development is a bit more than complex :)

Thanks so much everyone,

It's good to get a little introduction from everyone, so thanks for greeting me and sharing a little about yourself :)

RevJohn, I found your point particularly interesting about what you said about not needing to be mutually exclusive. Thanks for the insight :)

Hi Modern Girl. Welcome to wondercafe!

My spirituality is always changing, or rather evolving. But it is also unchangingly the same.

In a series of mystical experiences, culminating in a mind-blowing peak experience, I became at-one with the Creator-creating-created totality. I see this totality as constantly creating, constantly changing, constantly evolving, with me co-evolving along with IT.

God, for me, is not just the noun "Creator" but also the verb "creating," linking Creator and created into one inseparable whole. As the Creator power of the universe, God is unchangingly the same, but as the Creator-creating-created Trinity, God is constantly and dynamically changing. And I, as an inseparable part of IT, am consciously, constantly, and dynamically changing along with IT.  

Modern Girl, I have been thinking about your opening post. I am having trouble with "developing" as if we have to make this or create this. Do we not just have a spiritual identity and as we grow and change so does the identity that is already there.  

Crazyheart,

I chose the word "developing" because I compare spiritual development to the other forms of development we experience. There's physical development, cognitive development, social development, etc. We are born with hands and fingers, but we still need to develop our gross motor skills and our fine motor skills (keyboard typing, piano playing). When we are born, we don't know what we think about the world. As children, we may be taught certain things, but that doesn't mean we believe them. If a parent takes our hands and guides us through playing on the piano, it doesn't mean we can play without their hands there. The potential for a spiritual identity is there when we are born, but we must develop it first.

Does that clear up your question?

I guess I disagree somewhat. I don't think sprituality can be taught. I think it is or it isn't. Maybe what we need is to define for ourselves what we think " spiritual " means. the dictionary says " spirit or soul" or the doctrine that the spirit is real.

Hi BJ,

You misprinted your blog address. There is no "@" in it.

It is:  http://godstherealthing.blogspot.com/

Be Blessed,

IB

As to the first two questions, I gravitate more toward the "changes" option, though in my case (and I would argue in most people's experience) this change happens within a relatively stable framework.  Though my theology has been changed over time, I remain within the stream of Christianity.

The changes of thought within Christianity for me happened in part because of my family's close association with our church as I was growing up, being the son of a minister (and later in life the son of two ministers), being part of a very conservative (ie literalist and borderline fundamentalist) youth group, encountering theological writings and atheistic thought, and finally the spread of ideas through wondercafe.  In particular process theology.

Hi Mod'Girl,

Please provide your definition of "spiritual" and "spiritual identity". Without a common understanding of what your terms mean, the thread is a bit confusing.

I don't define "spiritual" in the personal religious context. It's more inclusive that way.

LL&P

Spock

My faith has changed a lot. Ethnically I'm half Catholic, half atheist. I've spent time as both. I've always prayed, sometimes to God, sometimes to no one in particular. Sometimes I go to a United Church downtown. I don't really like other people evangelizing to me. It's like..if being an evangelical christian is so great, why are you such a dick? You know? I still feel a little bit Catholic, atheist and liberal protestant, so I guess I'm nothing in particular. If there's a god I'm pretty sure he's a patient guy though, so I'm sure he doesn't mind .

Kinst

I'm a little bit Catholic too among many things...lol. My father was Catholic and I'm christened Catholic. I watch Catholic mass at noon on TV sometimes. God's not a guy but I think its quite O.K. to imagine God anyway we wish....lol. One thing I know for sure is that God loves variety! If God's spirit lives within us then maybe God is men, women, and children....all of us.....how about that...

I guess I mean spiritual to be anything you want to interpret spiritual as. For me, spiritual means anything about the "big questions" and believing in a lack of spirit is still your belief about spiritualism.

Hrmm, to give a brief intro of myself...I was raised Catholic until I was 8. Then my father (who was raised Anglican) told my mom (who was raised Catholic) that we should not have religion shoved down our throats, and that if we want to decide when we're older, that's fine. So we stopped going to church, I explored some Protestant and Evangelical youth groups as a teen, then I got really into Paganism & New Age for about 8 years. Then I discovered that everything is commodified and man-made and that the creations & insights of one human being aren't necessarily greater than my own creations or insights...then I floated around as an Agnostic-theist for a while (which is definitely not an atheist), and then I fell in love with a Jewish boy, who I've now been dating for almost 2 years.

Hi spockis53

You're still here while many of the original atheists who came on board regarding  the bus ads have signed off. This tells me you surely have a big interest in spirituality. Good old human nature being what it is we seldom do anything unless we have a need meaning there's something in it for us; some kind of pay back.

You never know what's down the road spockis53. Someday its possible you'll become a believer not in any holy books per se but in a spiritual something that can't be defined exactly.

Obviously you like and enjoy the WC! I like it too. Hats off to the United Church of Canada where atheists are most welcomed  and loved!

You might find group dialogues more useful if you look into semantics a wee bit more. Over the last couple of months here on Wondercafe, I've witnessed dozens of wasted debates simply because one side was unwillng or unable to define the meaning of a word.  There is no communication when interpretation is left wide open.

So here is my backgrounder on my definition of "spiritual". First you need to think about the "dualism" concept... that is, the belief that there is a physical body and there is a separate mind 'entity' that inhabits the body. Then you contrast that with a "materialism" concept...  that is, there is only the physical body and the mind and all our thoughts/perceptions are a result of the material/physical brain.

Spirituality would seem to require that one believes in dualism. This is spirituality in a personal context. But there is no evidence for dualism or spirituality. I'm a philosophical materialist, if you haven't made the assumption already.

So... you could, as I do (a non-believing, atheist, who adheres to scientific methodology) consider spirituality in a more metaphorical way.  I 'believe' (because it is only a personal, unsubstantiated opinion) that spirituality is totally impersonal. It is what exists amongst and between all life. It is the necessary element of connectivity required for the survival of life. We all (every living thing) share a spirituality that is responsible for our interdependence.

It's a natural, super-ecology kind of thing.

LL&P(spiritually)

Spock 

Actually Spock, I think it's best to not over define things. Because then you get stuck in the semantics and that's what really clouds up the conversation.

Ever try to discuss religion with a group of people who first wanted it defined? My intro to religious studies class tried to concretely define religion for about 2 months. We ended up all going a little dizzy and cross-eyed by the end. It would have been better to just jump into the meat of the discussion.

I don't want to get tied up with dualism stuff. My original question was simple - has your spiritual identity changed over time. By spiritual, I mean how you address the big questions in life. So, have your answers to the big questions in life changed over time?

Hi and welcome.

My belief in God has changed alot of the years.

I attended as a young child and rebelled as a teen.  I joined as a adult and then drifted into a Christmas/Easter attendee.  As a new mother I reconnected.

throughout all that time I woudl say that I had a belief in God but limited knowledge of the Bible or my denomination.

So while I think that I have had a spiritual side all along, what I hae developed is a deeper understanding into the various sides and ideas in my faith.

As I matured, nothing else i ventured into filled the same place as Christianity for me. 

Your comments got me thinking - but not in a direction you might expect.

You talk about spiritual development, using an analogy with cognitive, motor, etc development. But just as surely as we develop, so too do we deteriorate. We lose those skills that we have spent so much time developing. So is spiritual development necessarily uni-directional - can there not also be spiritual deterioration?  And what could lead to that state of affairs? Maybe personal tragedy; perhaps isolation from others and a loss of social network; a relationship wound that has festered too long; a lifetime of disappointment and a realization that one's hopes may never be fulfilled; perhaps simple boredom.  Yet ironically, all these things and more are what religions have traditionally sought to address - to help people grow and maintain a sense of meaning in the face of disappointment; to develop a spiritual community that can nurture and challenge with the newness that other people's perspectives can bring; to cherish what is beyond oneself by intentionally bringing ourselves into contact with a bigger world.  I've never found that these things can be done wholly on one's own - doing so only fosters a greater inward-looking attitude. That's why for me, spiritual development is also social development. It reminds me of a comment from an 80-year-old about why she looked forward to having young people lead worship: "it keeps me young!". Our spirit develops when we learn from each other, value each other, and support each other.

Hi Modern Girl,

I'm going to agree with both spockis53 and yourself.  To do so I want to point to the nuance that separates defining a thing from over defining a thing.

An apple is distinguishable from an orange.  That allows for a simple definition to separate the one from the other.

If I start distinguishing apples from apples that is a worthwhile exercise because all apples are not created equal.

The problem is that when I start discussing the merits of apples and oranges I should work on a general level and realize that the distance between the two can appear greater if I start comparing general oranges to specific apples or vice-versa.

To expand on that metaphor.  I tend to like apples more than I do oranges and yet I will eat an orange before I eat a Granny Smith apple.  The reason being that I think Granny Smiths are better cooked as opposed to eaten raw.  I would probably also pick a blood orange over any other apple variety, at least once, because I am also curious and have never had a blood orange.

Now if my friends saw me make those decisions after I had made the point that I prefer apples to oranges they would understand that I have quirks.  That is because they have experience dealing with those quirks.  People not familiar with those quirks are going to be confused.

Definition helps everyone to communicate easily.

Over definition can shut-down the communication and works about as effectively as refusing to define.

Of course, definition doesn't mean agreement is going to be automatic.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Spiritbear, thank you so much for that insight. Marvelous! I think that spiritual development can deteriorate, just like physical development. But I'm don't think it needs to. There's no sign that social development deteriorates - atleast there's no literature on it yet, with the exception with specific functions that affect a person's personality, like Alzheimer's. In the general population, social skills and social development can continue to grow through the life span - so it's possible that spiritual development might also continue.

Revjohn, of course I see the need for some definitions. I just strongly dislike it when conversations get bogged down and sidetracked by such.

Hi Modern Girl

Do I think spiritual identity is something pretty stable (consistent) or something that's always changing?

My Spirituality, as opposed to religion, is constantly changing. I believe the end goal is a constant, but I can't see precisely what it is at the present, and so my journey there is constantly changing direction, yet always moving forward.

Have I always identified my religon the same throughout my life, or have I gone through a series of changes to my viewpoint? 

I have gone thorough a huge number of changes and much of it has appeared as a move away from "canned religion" and toward spirituality, toward something without restrictions.

If I have changed my religious views, what factors have contributed to that change?

The biggest factors are - reading books in large quantities, discussing with others of like mind, and thinking, thinking, thinking.

I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if I'm repeating people. You know how people talk about being "born again". Well what happens after you're born. You grow. It is ideal to spend you life learning and growing and getting closer to GOD. Being born again is the first step in a journey and changes will (and should) occur along the way. I hope this is helpful and good for you Modern Girl.

My personal defintion of spirituality has developed since attending WC. It is what exists between all life. That is the 'spirit' to which I am (and we all are) connected.

On the big questions, well, yeah... spirituality has given me a perspective for the respect of life.

LL&P

Spock

Welcome to WC ModernGirl.

I think for some people their spiritual identity/beliefs are very consistent and unchanging. They are quite sure that their beliefs are the only right ones and other beliefs are wrong.

My beliefs have evolved considerably over the years and continue to evolve. I have done considerable reading on religions of the world, and I enjoy discussions with people of other faiths. While I would not be able to be a believer or follower of most of these religions, they are obviously fullfilling the spiritual needs of most of their followers, which is good.. 

Hi Modern Girl,

Spock beat me to my questions, which you've answered enough to my satisfaction, so I'll weigh in.

To me, "spirituality" is nothing other than finding a process to reconcile your actions with your feelings.

That said, then yes, that process has changed for me over time. As it must, because I am, myself, a process. Given the simple absolute certainty that, put rather vulgarly, things change, then for anything to persist, it must also change.

As changes in your "spiritual identity" are inevitable, the important thing is whether those change are perceived as growth or as decay.

I tend to agree more with Spock's conception of spirituality than Ergo's. To me, spirituality is about our connection with each other and our world. It's not just about ME, but rather me as a part of something larger. We probably will mainly disagree about how we name this process (i.e. whether we use the G word). Ergo's definition seems very limiting in that it seems to focus on the individual only.  As long as the human race holds to this perspective, it's future (and that of the planet) is dim. Collectively, we need to find a way of looking beyond ourselves.

So it is relationships (to others and to the earth) that I find increasing important to the development of my spirituality. And in the church, the emphasis is on "right relationship". My spirituality develops as I discover how to make those connections "right" - generous, giving, compassionate, conserving what is precious, understanding, fulfilling: not an easy list.

While we are at identifying spirituality, let me add mine.

To me, spirituality is feeling or experiencing the innate cosmic unity or synthesis, and acting and thinking directly from that feeling.

Deep in our hearts there is a common vision;

Deep in ourt hearts there is a common song;

Deep in our hearts there is a common story,

Telling creation that we are one.

-MV # 154

spiritbear,

I agree with your concept of spirituality as "a connection with each other and our world." I would also add, "and with our concept of God."

Atonement for me means " at -one- ment".

Well, for me, I started out a dreamy girl who believed in fairies and magic and Neverneverland, then when I was 16 found out that all the things I believed and my worldview at that point were well described by the term paganism so I began studying it, thoroughly excited, and calling myself that and I believed in the magic there and that our purpose was mainly just to live, experience and reproduce. So that was my first major spiritual change, if one should call it a change.

My second one occurred when I did reproduce and found it wasn't all that dreamy after all. I had to get real. I felt a drastic change in my spirituality. I no longer believed my purpose was to reproduce and I no longer payed homage to the mother or believed in spells and charms. A line from a song goes, "It's all sex and death in Mother Nature's plan", so I was now an atheist as I had been raised by my parents, who don't believe in fairies, magic or the sacredness of human fertility! So now I seek my purpose as a person who searches the living realm for knowledge and experience, without the walking womb bit.

Hi PP: I too believe in "at-one-ment" as "atonement."

I hope this comes across as well intended as it is but there are lots of good, loving churches who would welcome you and help you get to know a living GOD who loves you. I hope you give JESUS a chance.

Jon71, Thanks but no thanks. Jesus isn't new to me either. Not bad looking though! I'm quite happy with my spiritual atheism. I agree with Arminuis, I just don't call it God.

For me, spirituality is about exploring our relationship to each other, to the Cosmos, to other life, and so on. As long as we are exploring, there is opportunity for our ideas to change. That said, I think we do develop a stable base from which to explore over time. Certainly, my core views haven't really changed much over the last 20 years, just how I understand their relationship to my life and faith (since you're new, I'll mention that I'm Unitarian Universalist but with United Church roots). So spiritual identity does develop over time, but perhaps that does not always mean ongoing radical change, just uncovering new directions and meanings within whatever core beliefs we've developed. My last sermon (I lay preach) in my UU church was on spiritual exploration (Exploring the Dark Cave of Life was the title) but, alas, I preached from talking points rather than a written sermon so I don't really have anything to post, since that sermon really got to the heart of my ideas on spiritual exploration. I've been meaning to write up a version of it and post it as a blog but haven't had the time.

Welcome to the site -although you have been here a while I haven't been around much.

My spiritual identity has definitely radically changed and my religion with it.  For most of my life it was pretty stable, the faith I was taught as a child, and then I started to think about it and to not be willing to settle for what sort of fit.  In just a few short years I have gone from stable and secure to faith crisis on the brink of declaring athiesm but not really being willing to give it up completely to a place where I am starting to feel pretty stable out my spiritual identity.  I have taken this journey though the practice of centering prayer which has created for me an spiritual identity that is actualy mine and continues to challenge and grow my faith. 

Welcome back, Elby!

Centering prayer is great—a time honoured monastic Christian practice. It leads to spiritual experience, which is worth more than a thousand words.

Isn't it ironic? Jesus advocates resorting to begging in a recruiting effort?

Is your faith that weak?

LL&P

Spock

Mendalla, I like that. I have core views that haven't changed much too.

Elanorgold, I really appreciate your story. It's very interesting, especially since I spent a few years enchanted by Paganism.

Thanks for all the comments and welcome messages everyone :)

I know a risen savior and extened a friendly invitation. How is that weak?

Does 'knowing Jesus' require the interevention of a personal, human messenger?

Do God and Jesus ever reveal themselves to people, independent of a someone bringing 'the word' to them from outside?

What I am getting at is that Christian faith appears to require the human cultural element in order to perpetuate itself.  This makes it appear to be a human invention.

Has God/Jesus ever contacted someone independently?

LL&P

Spock

My spiritual identity most certainly has changed and grown over time, all of it shaped by experiences, love and loss, geography, time, education, learning about other denominations & faiths (Judaism), my developmental phases of my life (I tend to like Erikson's 8 stages best), reading, dreaming, etc. 

Even becoming a dog owner has affected my spirituality:  her unending affection, the daily consistency I've developed in order to meet her needs, and the companionship have caused me to muse about creation, relationships, the Creator, and the joy of companionship.

Yes, our spiritual identity can deteriorate after being battered by all the storms of life.  In my own life, I've found that, after emerging from the metaphoric storm, I learn more about myself.  Hence, my spiritual identity grows in the times of reflection following the storm. 

My biggest lesson is this:  Nurturing (and loving) my Spirit is part of Self-care.

Does 'knowing Jesus' require the interevention of a personal, human messenger?

Do God and Jesus ever reveal themselves to people, independent of a someone bringing 'the word' to them from outside?

What I am getting at is that Christian faith appears to require the human cultural element in order to perpetuate itself.  This makes it appear to be a human invention.

Has God/Jesus ever contacted someone independently?

LL&P

Spock

[/quote

I wouldn't say it's required (a person witnessing) for someone to know GOD but it's certainly a good thing for Christians to do. I know of one example off the top of my head, Helen Keller. I went into this on a different thread where she knew JESUS, then missionaries witnessed to her and she told them that she already knew JESUS, she just didn't know HIS name. GOD spoke to her before people did.