Similar statements:

"Homosexuality is a sin"

"My boss is a b**tard"

"It says so right in the Bible"

"Abortion is murder"

"Beethoven is the best musician of all time"

Crazyheart - I agree with what you said.

I also don't believe in Hell, but I do believe in Heaven - does that make me strange???

On the one hand, too many Christians use "the Devil made me do it" as an excuse to minimize their personal culpability for egregious misconduct.  I rarely refer to evil spiritual forces and have angered a few Christians for my reluctance to do so.  But I do allude to them in situations like this.  (1) Recently, a team of pastors and a clinical psychologist were ment oring a defrocked pastor, Craig.  I later joined this team.  Craig was making excellent spiritual progress, except for lingering anger against his wife.  When he shot her, I deeply regretted not being more confrontational  with him.  I was waiting for him to bring this toxic relationship up.  (2) One of the most respected members of our  town was also making great spiritual progress (volunteering for various ministries, discussing his  growing edges, etc.).  Then out of the blue, he molested a child and is not serving a 14 1/2 year prison sentence.  In my view, spiritual warfare was involved and overlooked in both cases and was triggered by the spiritual progress and new heart for service  that both men had delveloped.   

On the ot her hand, when renowned Aussie mystic Robert Bruce  (an OBE adept and famous author) was trying to exorcize an obviuosly possessed small child, he made the mistake of challenging the demon to come into him instead, thinking he could easily get rid of it later.  Instead, the entity left the child and possessed Robert, repeatedly coercing him to get up in the middle of the night, get a butcher knife, and stand over his child's crib.  Robert  Bruce confesses that it took all of his willpower to resist stabbing his son, but he recognized that it was getting harder and harder to exercise such restraint.  So he  went out in to the Australian wilderness and took a  long spiruaul retreat before he felt confident that he could return to his home wtihout murdering his child.  Possession cases sometomes involve demonic coercion.

somegalfromcan,

you can't escape your humanity :3

I personally think that the devil can't make us do anything that we don't want to do just as God can't make us do anything we don't want to do ---- we are free moral agents and have a choice to do or not to do ----The soul is our engine which is our mind which is our thoughts  --will and emotions so that is where  we get the the idea to do evil or good ---the body moves to your every thought ---our bodies will be still when we have know thoughts ---a brain dead person's body is still --it becomes our choice to move our body in the direction of our thought  ---bad thoughts if not cast down will eventually move our bodies into that bad thought action.-----our choice to stop the action or do the action ----no devil involved in the action only the thought.  

Just must take on it.  

craztheart

Before the Babylonian exile, the Jews had no concept of a Satan in the sense that most orthodox Christians today might envision Satan or the Devil. That is the reason that verses such as Isaiah 45:7 and 1 Sam 16:15 attribute both good and evil to YHWH. I have excluded Lucifer because those verses in Isaiah are in obvious reference to an earthly king with an immense ego. During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to and strongly influenced by the Zoroastrian religion. This faith envisioned a constant cosmic battle between a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a near divine force of evil (Ahrulman). The Jews were easily able to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. It let YHWH off the hook for evil. They took the angel ha'shaitan from the mythology of Job and cast him/her/it into the role of Satan as the personification of evil. It was a far more satisfactory explanation for the presence of and problem of evil in the world. So it all depends whether you are looking at pre-exilic scripture or post-exilic. This means that the talking snake in the Genesis mythology was just a common garden variety talking snake (pun intended). It is also worth knowing that the concept of demons or devils along with the notion of hell proceeds out of this same source. The connection with Zoroastrianism extends into the New Testament with the story of the magi (Zoroastrian priests) coming to pay homage to the infant Jesus and also to the person of Simon Magus as found in Acts.

Over 50 years ago during a spiritual retreat, the leader (a Jesuit priest) tried to envision eternity in this way: "Imagine the Himalayan mountain range, the most massive range in the world, standing in places almost six miles high. Once every 100 years a butterfly wafts over them and strikes a rock with its wing. When those butterflies have worn the Himalayas down till they are as flat as Saskatchewan, then the first fraction of a second of eternity will have passed." Eternity is totally beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend! Now imagine a condemned soul suffering the most agonizing possible pain continuously for all eternity. Got the image? I certainly have! And it is an image that I find totally incompatible with the notion of a loving and compassionate God. A God who could inflict such a punishment on even the most vile and evil human being would not really be worthy of our respect, our worship or our love. I do, however, believe very strongly in God's justice but even more strongly in God's love and compassion. I will leave it with confidence in God's care.

eternity in this way: "Imagine the Himalayan mountain range, the most massive range in the world, standing in places almost six miles high. Once every 100 years a butterfly wafts over them and strikes a rock with its wing. When those butterflies have worn the Himalayas down till they are as flat as Saskatchewan, then the first fraction of a second of eternity will have passed." Eternity is totally beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend! Now imagine a condemned soul suffering the most agonizing possible pain continuously for all eternity. Got the image? I certainly have! And it is an image that I find totally incompatible with the notion of a loving and compassionate God. A God who could inflict such a punishment on even the most vile and evil human being would not really be worthy of our respect, our worship or our love. I do, however, believe very strongly in God's justice but even more strongly in God's love and compassion. I will leave it with confidence in God's care.

Thank you JRT

A sermon starter I made for a sermon on accountability and responsibility.

Satan came home late and drunk and his wife asked him what happened since he had promised to quit drinking.  He replied that he had stopped at a friend's place, and the friend had a new bottle of Crown Royal.  He saw no harm in taking one small drink, but, before he knew it, the bottle was gone, he was late, and he was drunk.  His wife then asked him why he failed to keep his promise.

His reply was "The devil made me do it."

Possession events seem to point to the existence of malicious spirits, and I am no position to judge whether they are real or not.  Maybe this is one place where we can choose our own position without feeling a need to disprove another's position.

I think the "devil made me do it" is a get out of jail free card.  There may actually be some real possessions.  I don't know.  But if a person can escape personal responsibility by saying "the devil tempted me" then they will do it.

I have heard people say that gambling, drinking, adultery, smoking,  and drugging are "devil made me do it" addictions.  I am so amazed that being a "sex addict" is "in" now.  There is sex addict therapy on Dr. Drew Celeberty Rehab and then there is Warren the Ape who is a sex addict on popular tv.  I have also heard people say that God delivered them from alcohol, drugs, gambling, and smoking.  Now I wonder if in the those Churches God is delivering them from sex?

There is personal responsiblity.  For example I really like this certain kind of chocolate and coconut bar.  If I buy a box I will eat the whole box.  So I don't buy the box.

According to the theology the people who have addictions have given up their personal control to the devil so after they do this the devil makes them drink, smoke, gamble, etc.

I no longer believe in the devil or hell.  But even when I did (except for when I was a kid) the theology of the devil made me do it falls short.

I also don't believe in any "Satan" concept. There is no being in my pantheon that is comparable.

I don't believe in evil, especially not the capitalized "EVIL" concept either. I believe people make choices. Some choose to heal, some choose to be benign, and some choose to harm. In my faith responsibility, even the responsibilty for temptation, rests squarely on the shoulders of the individual.

I don't believe there is a devil or evil.

But we all have our shadow side. If we confront it - we minimise it's harm, for ourselves and others.

If we don't -  we harm ourselves and others.

Our shadow is persistant - like a crying baby - it clamours for attention.

Ultimately, it's aim is to seek integration into our personality.

Take on the task - for ourselves and others.

I''m told by exorcists that what really convinces those present at an genuine exorcism is not the paranormal phenomena, but the Presence--the presence of pure unmitigated hatred so intense that it seems to sear the soul of witnesses. 

To take Pilgrim Progress' thoughts a bit further, I'd say that The Devil/Satan is a metaphorical figure that we created to represent that shadow side. It gives us an image to confront, much as we would confront an actual person. Makes it more concrete, if you like.

The risk, as always, is that some will take the image and think it really is concrete. Instead of taking away the intended message of needing to confront and deal with our shadow side, they focus on the image and on confronting it to the point where they assume that it is the reality. It's also an easy out for some people: concretizing the myth takes a problem that is clearly internal and makes it external so that they can avoid dealing with it as being "their" problem.

I like Jim Kenney's "joke", because it nicely captures the idea that confronting "Satan" is really about confronting ourselves and our own not-so-nice side.

Mendalla

But all of this is just so much whislting past the graveyard in the face of the awesome evidence for real evil forces manifesting supernaturally. 

Do you know of anyone who has tried to do some 'experiments' with these evil forces to understand them better, know their limitations, their abilities, etc etc?  And, perhaps, if they are sentient, to communicate with them?

I've been reading stories like the ones you present since, oh, the 1970s. It's as anecdotal as ever and certainly doesn't strike as any more awesome than any of the others. They may well be evidence of something unusual going on, but don't strike me as proving specifically the existence of a Devil. As with all things of faith, it's very subjective. If you witness an event and interpret in a certain way, it may well be compelling evidence for your faith position. Others mileage may vary. That's one of the reasons I am an agnostic. No one has ever provided compelling (to me) rational or empirical evidence for God, the Devil, the afterlife, etc. and I clearly haven't had the kind of subjective, mystical experience that drives such faith for many people.

Mendalla

You mean there are, in your opinion, supernatural manifestations of evil.

The problem with the anecdotes you offer is that they are not really objective evidence. The circumstances cannot be verified, and even if you could verify some of the circumstances, your suppositions and opinions about wwhat caused them cannot be verified or proven.

I wonder if claiming "awesome evidence" where there is none, is the real "whislting past the graveyard"?

  Maybe we need to see the Movie--The Rite  --inspiried by true events

 Inspired by true events, "The Rite" follows skeptical seminary student Michael Kovak (Colin O'Donoghue), who reluctantly attends exorcism school at the Vatican. While in Rome, he meets an unorthodox priest, Father Lucas (Anthony Hopkins), who introduces him to the darker side of his faith. Directed by Mikael Hafstroem ("1408"), "The Rite" is a supernatural thriller that uncovers the devil's reach to even one of the holiest places on Earth.

And then there is Emily Rose

The Exorcism of Emily Rose (2005) Starring Laura Linney, Tom Wilkinson, Jennifer Carpenter based on the true story of Anneliese Michel as detailed in the book "The Exorcism of Anneliese Michel" by Dr. Felicitas Goodman
Reel Face:	Real Face:
Jennifer Carpenter Born: December 7, 1979 Birthplace: Louisville, Kentucky, USA	Anneliese Michel Born: September 21, 1952 Birthplace: Klingenberg, Bavaria, Germany Died: July 1, 1976 (cause of death: dehydration and malnourishment)
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"I know that we did the right thing because I saw the sign of Christ in her hands. She was bearing stigmata and that was a sign from God that we should exorcise the demons. She died to save other lost souls, to atone for their sins." - Anna Michel (Anneliese's mother, 2005) Questioning the Story: When did Anneliese begin to experience strange symptoms? In 1968, when she was 17 and still in high school, Anneliese began to suffer from convulsions. Court findings have her experiencing her first epileptic attack in 1969. It was then that a neurologist at the Psychiatric Clinic Wurzburg diagnosed her with Grand Mal epilepsy. Soon, Anneliese started experiencing devilish hallucinations while praying. She also began to hear voices, which told her that she was damned. The court determined that by 1973 Anneliese was suffering from depression and considering suicide. In 1975, convinced that she was possessed, her parents gave up on the doctors from the psychiatric clinic. They chose to rely solely on the exorcisms for healing (washingtonpost.com). Anneliese's symptoms have since been compared with those of schizophrenia, and they may have responded to treatment (telegraph.co.uk). Who first diagnosed Anneliese as being possessed? The first unofficial diagnosis was made by an older woman who accompanied Anneliese on a pilgrimage. She noticed that Anneliese avoided walking past a particular image of Jesus, and that she refused to drink water from a holy spring. The woman also claimed that Anneliese smelled hellishly bad (washingtonpost.com). An exorcist from a nearby town examined Anneliese and concluded that she was demonically possessed. After two failed requests, the rite of exorcism was finally granted by the Bishop. Was Tom Wilkinson's character of Father Moore based on a real person? Tom Wilkinson's character was more a combination of two real-life people, Father Arnold Renz and Pastor Ernst Alt (shown at left). Both men were assigned by the Bishop of Wurzburg, Josef Stangl, to carry out "The Great Exorcism" on Anneliese Michel. The foundation for this ritual was the "Rituale Romanum", which at the time, was still a valid 17th century Cannon Law. Father Arnold Renz had been a former missionary in China, and Pastor Ernst Alt was a pastor in a nearby community. Together they carried out 67 rites of exorcism over a period of 10 months, with one or two exorcism sessions held each week. Some sessions lasted up to four hours (moviesonline.ca). google_protectAndRun("ads_core.google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad); Did Anneliese Michel really see the faces of demons on the people around her like Emily Rose did in the film? According to The Washington Post, as she grew more convinced that she was possessed, Anneliese began to see the faces of demons on the people and things around her. Watch a Clip from the Film What demons possessed Anneliese? Anneliese was convinced that she had been possessed by several demons, including Lucifer, Judas Iscariot, Nero, Cain, Hitler, and Fleischmann, a disgraced Frankish Priest from the 16th century. She also mentioned a few other damned souls who had manifested themselves through her. -moviesonline.ca Did Anneliese's mother Anna support the making of the film? No. Anneliese's mother did not support the making of The Exorcism of Emily Rose. "I don't want to see the film and I don't know anything about it," Mrs. Michel said, who was at the time in her eighties. Anneliese's father Josef died six years prior to the film's release. -telegraph.co.uk How many people were found guilty in Anneliese Michel's death? Anneliese's parents and the exorcists were found guilty of negligence. In the 2005 film, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, only one of the characters, Father Richard Moore (Tom Wilkinson), was found guilty of negligent homicide surrounding the death of Emily Rose. In the real-life case of Anneliese Michel (pictured right), which took place in 1978, there were four defendants, not just one. They were Father Arnold Renz, Pastor Ernst Alt, and Anneliese Michel's parents, Josef and Anna. All four were found guilty of negligent homicide and sentenced to six months in prison, suspended with three years' probation. -washingtonpost.com . What other disturbing things did Anneliese do? Anneliese carried out a number of highly disturbing actions. She licked her own urine off the floor. She ate flies, spiders, and coal. She bit off the head of a dead bird. In one instance, she crawled under a table and barked like a dog for two days. She could often be heard screaming through the walls for hours. Tearing off her clothes and urinating on the floor became a regular occurrence. -moviesonline.ca Did the exorcisms cause her bodily harm? The exorcisms took a significant toll on Anneliese's body. Yes. Anneliese (pictured right) endured 67 rites of exorcism over a period of 10 months. Over time, the ligaments in her knees ruptured due to the 600 genuflections that she performed obsessively during each exorcism session. A genuflection is an act of reverence consisting of falling onto one or both knees (called a "double genuflection"). On June 30, 1976, during her last rite of exorcism before her death, too weak and emaciated to perform the genuflections on her own, Anneliese's parents stood and helped carry her through the motions. -moviesonline.ca Was there a doctor present during the exorcisms as in the film? Goodman based her book on court records and eye- witness accounts. No. Around Easter time of the year that she died, Anneliese began to refuse food and drink. Her convulsions returned with a greater ferocity. No doctors were called (time-proxy.yaga.com). During the trial, specialists claimed that if the four accused (Father Arnold Renz, Pastor Ernst Alt, and the parents) would have begun to force feed Anneliese a week before her death, then she would still be alive. One of Anneliese's sisters explained to the court during the 1978 trial that Anneliese did not want to go to a mental hospital where she would be drugged and forced to eat (moviesonline.ca). In her book, The Exorcism of Anneliese Michel, Felicitas D. Goodman embraces the possibility that Anneliese was not epileptic, and that the medication the doctors had given her to control her seizures only made her hallucinations worse. Why did Anneliese Michel refuse to eat? She forced herself to fast because she believed that it would rid her of Satan's influence. At the time of her death, she weighed only 68 lbs (telegraph.co.uk). Prior to her death, she had spoke of dying to atone for the sins of the wayward youth and apostate priests of the modern church (washingtonpost.com). Anneliese is pictured on the right. What did Anneliese technically die from? Anneliese's gravesite in Klingenberg Cemetery, Germany. According to the autopsy, on July 1, 1976 Anneliese Michel succumbed to the effects of severe dehydration and malnourishment. At the time of her death, she was also suffering from Pneumonia and a high fever (1g3.com). She was buried next to her illegitimate sister Martha at the outer edges of the cemetery (view here). This area is normally reserved for illegitimate children and suicides (telegraph.co.uk). What were Anneliese Michel's last words? Weak and on the verge of death, she spoke her last known words on the day before she died. She told her exorcists "Beg for Absolution". To her mother Anna, she said, "Mother, I'm afraid." -moviesonline.ca Had Anneliese been a deeply religious person prior to 'being possessed'? Yes. Anneliese and her three sisters were raised in a strict Catholic family. Her father Josef had considered training as a priest and three of her aunts were nuns. Four years before Anneliese was born, her mother gave birth to an illegitimate daughter, Martha. As a result, her mother suffered great shame and was forced to wear a black veil on her wedding day. When Anneliese was a child, her mother encouraged her to atone for the sins of illegitimacy through fervent devotion. When Anneliese's sister Martha died at the age of eight during an operation to remove a kidney tumor, this likely only increased Anneliese's desire to do penance for her mother (telegraph.co.uk). google_protectAndRun("ads_core.google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad); As she grew older, Anneliese continued to suffer for the sins of others. When she was a teenager, Anneliese slept on a bare stone floor to atone for the sins of wayward priests and drug addicts, who could be observed sleeping on the hard ground at the local train station (washingtonpost.com). In college at West Germany's University of Würzburg, she hung pictures of saints on her dorm room walls, kept a holy-water font near the door, and regularly prayed the Rosary (time-proxy.yaga.com). As stated earlier, even close to her death she spoke of dying to atone for the sins of the wayward youth and renegade priests. Is it possible that the priests who performed the exorcisms provided Anneliese with the contents of her psychotic behavior? "Doctrinaire Induction" theorizes that it was the exorcists who provided Anneliese with the basis for her demonic behavior. Some experts believe that this is possible. Psychiatrists who testified during the trial spoke about the "Doctrinaire Induction", which in relation to Anneliese explains that she accepted her behavior as a form of demonic possession, mainly because the exorcists introduced much of the idea to her and reinforced it with each exorcism (moviesonline.ca). In 1984, German bishops and theologians petitioned Rome to change the exorcism rite. They concluded that speaking directly or "imperatively" to the Devil, that is, "I command thee, unclean spirit . . . " only confirms to the patient that they are without a doubt possessed (moviesonline.ca). In the film, did the director try to provide an answer as to whether or not she was truly possessed? No. In an interview, Scott Derrickson responded to this question by saying, "We tried to put at the center of the movie the question of why did she die, and what is the truth behind this phenomenon? And ultimately to not answer it." Screenwriter Paul Harris Boardman went on to explain, "We have a Scully-Mulder approach to this material, with me being a little more the skeptic and Scott the believer. We approach it and try to be very fair and even-handed to both points of view, to our points of view. That's how we approach it analytically." -hollywoodgothique.bravejournal.com I read that the body of Anneliese Michel was exhumed after her death, is this true? Yes. On February 25, 1978, almost two years after her death, the deceased body of Anneliese Michel was dug up and moved to a new oak-coffin lined with tin. Her parents' desire to move her from the cheap coffin in which she was buried was allegedly used as an excuse to exhume her body. Instead, they were acting on a message received from a Carmelite nun from the district of Allgaeu in southern Bavaria. The nun had told the parents that she had a vision that their daughter's body was still intact. Official reports state that the body showed consistent deterioration. Photos of the exhumed body were never released, and Anneliese's parents were prohibited from witnessing the exhumation. From a distance, they could however see her grave from the bedroom of their home, where her mother still lives today. -wikipedia.org Is it true that another movie is being made about the exorcism of Anneliese Michel? Yes. A German language film about Anneliese Michel called Requiem, directed by Hans-Christian Schmid, was released in 2006. It is much more a drama than a horror film, and it supposedly follows the real story of Anneliese Michel more closely. -imdb.com Watch the Requiem movie trailer. Listen to the Voice of Anneliese Michel: At the time of the release of The Exorcism of Emily Rose, a German web site posted audio in which we hear the real Anneliese Michel's voice during one of the exorcisms. The web site obtained the audio from one of the 43 taped recordings made during the 67 rites of exorcism that Anneliese endured for a period of 10 months. The commentators in the first clip can be heard talking about the demons Cain, Nero, and Hitler, who Anneliese believed had taken over her body. Anneliese Michel Exorcism Audio - Real Player, 2:26 Anneliese Michel Voice Audio - Quicktime, :12         The movie's Father Moore was based on Father Arnold Renz and Pastor Ernst Alt.

It is amusing that posters here can be so close-minded that thay assume that reported encounters with evil must be lies or distortions.   Only an irrational person crows: "I accept only those testimonies that fit my preconceived notions."  Eyewitness testimony is the foundation of our legal system, together with forensic and circumstanstial evidence.  In fact, much of what we claim to know in life is based on eyewitness testimony, including the basic clams of the Christian faith.  But you have fallen into my trap. I just wanted to force you to question the eyewitness testimony of my brother (a physician) and my cousin (a psychiatrist) and his father (a pastor).   Why would a 3-year-old enter a deep trance, screaming with the pupils of his eyes nowhere in sight right after a succesful exorcism in a house?  My cousin knew nothing about exorcisms at the time or about what was happening in the house while he waited in the car.  He had a protective vision of Jesus during his terrifying trance state.  And how could my brother suddenly reieive the name of a possessed young man and his location within the hour, be reassured by a stranger that he was at the coffee house on a special mission, and then successfully exorcise the possessed young man, who was there as predicted and meekly thanked my brother for releasing him?  Psychological rationalzations of these phenemena are pretty desperate ploys to avoid the hard work of researching such cases.

Psychiatrist M. Scott Peck put out the word that he wanted to witness a genuine possession case.  the first two cases that were brought to his attention were standard misdiagnosed psychiatric disorders.  Says Peck, "I was already cutting notches on my scientific pistol."  The 3rd case was the real thing and was instrumental in Peck's conversion to Christianity.       

Relevant quote from Calvin & Hobbes (the comic strip, not the theologian and philosopher):

Calvin: Do you believe in the Devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man.

Hobbes: I'm not sure Man needs the help.

Mendalla

love this

I've never heard anyone say "The devil made me do it" without being sarcastic or cheeky.  Every person I've heard say it was smirking about the last cookie that they took, or something they did by free choice.

You do realize that there is no legal requirement that a movie advertised as "inspired by true events" actually contain any true events or facts at all, right?

It is amusing that you can be so close-minded that you assume that someone expressing healthy skepticism about wildly improbable events is saying any such thing. No, actually I'm not surprised. Straw man is your stock in trade, after all.

The fact is that eyewitness testimony is not very highly regarded in the legal system, especially where the persons giving the testimony are highlky subject to confirmation bias. Thus people of fervent religious convictions about the existence of demons, and expecting to encounter demons, will see those demons, whether said demons actually exist, or not.

This is why eyewitness testimony must be either from an unbiased or disinterested observer, or be accompanied by objective forensic evidence in the very least. The more extraordinary the claims of the witness, the less likely they are to be taken without substantial objective evidence to back them up. Demon possession is a highly extraordinary claim.

None of the highly entertaining anecdotes you gave satisfy either the unbiased eyewitness rquirement, or the requirement for objective evidence. In the face of the extraordinary claims you are making, probably the most extraordinary of claims that can be made, you cannot fault people for expressing very reasonable skepticism.

So before you go drippiung and moaning that we should just believe you just because.... how about you give us something objective to go on?

So you don't understand the legal sustem either?  Of course, eyewtiness legal testimony must boe cross-examined and considered in the light of circumstantial and forensic evidence.  But countless convictions derive from eyewitness testimony alone, as you countless beliefs you develop in daily life.  Bu the way, many world religions believe in Hell, some worse than the stereotypical Christian Hell.  In fact, research shows that in India, the dying are more fearful of their fate than in the USA. 

How many convictions derive from eyewitness testimony alone arising from witnesses with a confirmed bias and predisposition? I notice you conveniently left out that part of my point when making up your straw man.

Eyewitness testimony from witnesses with a confirmation bias cannot be used to convict without corroborating objective evidence. Perhaps you don't nklow as much about the legal system as you think you do? Or perhaps being dishonest is just easy for you when you really need to pretend you're right.

And who, praytell, conducted this "research" you claim says this? Do you have a reference? Was it a scholarly, disinterested body? Or was it that same sort of people who, quite conveniently, promote the anecdotes you purport is "evidence" of demons?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that India only has one religion.

Unfortunately for you there are three main religions in India, and scores of minor ones. Hindu and Buddhism don't have a Hell in their religion, at least not in any form you would recognize as hell. Islam does, but that's no surprise since it's practically the same as it's two other Abramic sibling religions, Judeaism and Christianity.

Most other religions in India, and indeed the rest of the world, don't have a concept that even remotely resembles the Christian Hell.

[Wtich:] "How many convictions derive from eyewitness testimony alone arising from witnesses with a confirmed bias and predisposition?"  

 Your straw man conveniently ignores the cases reported.   Since you don't read well, I need to repeat myself.  M. Scott Peck was looking to explain away exorcisms.  He is able to explain away the first 2 possesssion cases brought to his attention as standard psychiatrist disorders.  He remarks, "I was alraedy making notices on my scientific pistol."  The third case and later ones were utterly convincing to him.  He had the opposite bias to the one you allege.  My cousin (now a psychiatrist) knew nothing about the exorcism in progress an had no  bias towards the spirutal attach that afflecited him.  Dammit, he was only 3-years-old.  My brother was scoffing down hotdogs and icecream and watching Hockey Night in Canada at the time.  The last thing he was expecting was to be put in a trance and be given the name and location of someone possessed.  you are able to explain neither how he knew a guy of that name would be at the coffee shop, why the victim would aqcknowledge the exorcism as successful and his gang convert to Christianity as a result, and why a stranger would approach my brother before the victim appeared on the scene and ask him, "You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"   My brother has never been involved in anything like that before or since. 

And who, praytell, conducted this "research" you claim says this? Do you have a reference? Was it a scholarly, disinterested body? Or was it that same sort of people who, quite conveniently, promote the anecdotes you purport is "evidence" of demons?

Dr. Karlis Osis and Dr. Erlandur Haraldsson's massive study reported in their book "At the Hour of Death.' 

[Wtich:] "You seem to be under the mistaken impression that India only has one religion."

"Ass/u/me" makes an "ass" of "u" and "me." I taught Comparative Relgion at the university level.  Remember?

[

Hi Witch  Your Quote     You do realize that there is no legal requirement that a movie advertised as "inspired by true events" actually contain any true events or facts at all, right?

Well I don't know about you but all movies I've seen that state inspirited by true events have actually been from true events and of course Hollywood has to put in their stuff .  The Exorcist ---true events ----a boy in the real story ---a girl in the movie A Haunting in Connecticut   true events---you can get the full story on the web. Emily Rose has a grave sight and the Priest is still alive today ---maybe you need to look him up and speak with him personally. So Witch I agree that not all they put in the movies is all facts I do believe the movie was inspired by truth. You can make your choice on that ---free will to ignore . Al Capone the movie was inspirited by true events and so on ---Jessie James etc.

Blessings

There is the truth then there is the unalterable myth of the bible about things that go on in the soul.

Now did Christ descend to confront the devil or not? Did the pair rise to the surface, roof of the templar mode to view all that was? And did Light refuse to control the whole expanse? Perhaps he just wanted to penetrate the dark side and make em learn ... those that operate on light themself will eventually fall into the shadows. Light is like that and sometimes it'll reflect ... like sun off Mica ... that's thelove of the emotional side ... closed books they refuse to open and learn to understand ... they'll go more on their raw desire ... not knowing that desire is best symbolized by the dark side, chocholate, deep red roses the mines of the earth where varios form's of precious metals are formed ... Maeli able idée ... it is the surrounding that can shape eM up ... sort of like pestle and morte UR. Fear of Ur will twist a man all out of shape in the weaving ... the Ephemeral min' de ... infinite case ...

Man hates to go there but in mortal expression man is a non-sect'd isolationist ... believes in nothing as born, or bier'd hear ... bi th' Eire of my chi 'n nigh chi 'n chin ... Go'deis ...

Investigate the nature of hair in Kabballah ... sensitive cillia ... some balance in intuition and sensitivity is required ... non't tell dreamers of immense wealth too much truth ... they'll ben' dite ...

Non-sect'd isolationist?

has some of the mother and father of Pæn in eM but would never admit to that sensation ... one must be ferme-minded with heart ... nothing changes if I get what I want and to 'elle with the rest!

No daemons on this earth ... go way with yah. Yah to learn from both sides of the line ... Moor aLs and ET'ICs ... the pool overhead penetrated in pain. Take some now or save it all for one dose ... it'll bring on alteration ... that Cos ... profound enough! The mortals do not like profits of the dark side ... we only like good news ... avoid the truth that the far end of the hoes is afire ... interpret that as you like there's multiple meanings ... pick what's right for the space, time and light of the situation ... old Sufi Kod ...

I'm not hiding behind a cartoon, Berserk. I wasn't even responding to you in particular with that, just posting something that I'd just read that was relevant to the thread. You also don't seem to get the joke that was in there. The joke, Berserk, is that, in an animal's eyes, we are corrupted and tempted enough as we are and don't need a Devil to do it for us..

I don't get why you are taking my skepticism so personally. I've said clearly why I'm skeptical of your "evidence": because there's nothing new there that I haven't read before and seen quite thoroughly and rationally tested and dissected. IOW, I'm not trying to attack your beliefs or convince you to leave your obviously well thought-out and personally tested beliefs, just expressing the fact that I'm not ready to adopt those beliefs myself. As an agnostic, I am open to the notion that there is a spiritual dimension of existence, but am still exploring and questioning what exactly that is.

Mendalla

A'M'N Mendalla,

There is so much to learn so far to go ...

I'm not ignoring them at all, I'm making the point of their inherant bias. Mr Peck is certainly biased. He may claim to have been initially resistant to the idea, but he is making that claim as a christian, and a believer in demons, at present. The "I was an atheist before it was proved to me" scenario is so common amongst Christian writers that it is ubiquitos. There is nothing to show that the events that he claims caused his conversion actually happoened the way he describes them, or if they did, that his interpretation of them is correct. The phenomena of the story changing after the conversion is one aspect of confirmation bias

It's a wonderful story, but did it actually happen? We have only your word on it. I have no doubt that you probably believe every word of it, but let's face it. You have a stake in it being taken as true. Did the events happen? Did they happen exactly as reported? Did the story grow in the telling? Are the conclusions you drew from the events that serve to flesh out the story correct in their assumptions? Again we have no evidence to show that the story is factual.

OK now we're getting somewhere.

A bit of advice first. If you're going to reference a book, it's adviseable to actually read it first. What Osis and Haraksson say about the near death experiences of Hindu subjects appears to be markedly different from what you claim they say. Please note that what the book actually reports is that ...

So we see that your contention is false.  Hindu patients are not significantly more fearful of dying than their Christian counterparts. Furthermore, your intimation that it is because of some vision of hell is also false, as Osis and Haraksson report that those small number of Hindu that did report fearful experinces had an experience of apparition of someone they knew, and not a vision of hell.

I've included a link to an online copy of the book here, just in case you want to actually read it. It's quite interesting.

At the Hour of Death: A New Look at Evidence for Life After Death By Kārlis Osis, Erlendur Haraldsson

So you claim.

The level of knowledge you demonstrate here indicates that if you did teach, you either taught very badly, or you've since forgotten most of your material.

There are really two questions being asked here.

1 is about the the statement "Devil Man me do it"

Which I think touches on a trend in the modern world not to take responceiblity for ones actions. We are always looking for someone to blame for what happens to us.

The devil made me do it, my wife made me,. my techer made me..my mother made me this way...

Its not my fault , some one or something made me do it.

Very few stand up and take responciblity for our actions.

I see far to many children who think that they have no responciblity for their actions. Mommy and daddy will get me out of it. If I don't pass in my homework my parents will complain the teachers are being mean to me. They distroy something the parents will pay for it.

2nd question is about evil and or the devil

i can't remember who said it but a wise person once said that one can not understand or appricate good if one has never known evil.

One can not understand evil without understanding good. The are different sides of the same coin.

How can we truly know the good of God if there isn't the evil of the devil to compare it to.

I do believe in good and evil.

God and the Devil

I don't think they are as black and white as some would like to have us believe.

God isn't an old man sitting in the clouds looking down on us. Just as the Devil isn't al red with horns plotting the end of the world. They do exsist and they do affect our lives.

[Witch:] "IMr Peck is certainly biased. He may claim to have been initially resistant to the idea, but he is making that claim as a christian, and a believer in demons, at present."

 You absurdly overlook the decisive fact that Peck's encounter with genuine possession cases [after 2 misdiagnosed ones] overcame his bias AGAINST demonic possession.  You naively assume a concept of "bias" that implies that people who disagree with you on paranormal issues must be biased. 

My cousin (now a psychiatrist) knew nothing about the exorcism in progress an had no  bias towards the spirutal attach that afflecited him.  Dammit, he was only 3-years-old.  My brother was scoffing down hotdogs and icecream and watching Hockey Night in Canada at the time.  The last thing he was expecting was to be put in a trance and be given the name and location of someone possessed.  you are able to explain neither how he knew a guy of that name would be at the coffee shop, why the victim would aqcknowledge the exorcism as successful and his gang convert to Christianity as a result, and why a stranger would approach my brother before the victim appeared on the scene and ask him, "You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"   My brother has never been involved in anything like that before or since.

[Witch:] "It's a wonderful story, but did it actually happen? We have only your word on it."

Again, you demonstate that you are too close=minded to be worth debating.  Witnessed paranormal events that clash with your preconceptions are irrationally dismissed as contyived or embellished.  I confirmed the details of my borther's call to perform  his exorcism decades later.  No details had changed.  But the fear he experienced in reliving the exorcism prompted to insist that I not bring the subject up again.  Also, I confirmed the exorcism events experienced by my cousin (now a psychiatrist) and uncle by talking to them both separately and together just a few years ago.  . 

Witch, you offer a straw man quote to avoid the issue I raise.  Here is the quote I have in mind: "Nearly all the American patients and 2/3 of the Indian patients were ready to go after experiencing otherwordlyapparitions with a take-away purpose...We did not expect that one third of our Indian patients would not consent to go.  Part of the difference was traced to the influence of religion."  Their contrasting pessimism is my point;  the details of negative afterlife expectation are irrelevant.    And like Azdgari, you resort to insults when logic faiis you.  Notice carefully that I stick to the issues. 

Unfortunately for you there are three main religions in India, and scores of minor ones. Hindu and Buddhism don't have a Hell in their religion, at least not in any form you would recognize as hell. Islam does, but that's no surprise since it's practically the same as it's two other Abramic sibling religions, Judeaism and Christianity.

 [Witch:] "Unfortunately for you there are three main religions in India, and scores of minor ones. Hindu and Buddhism don't have a Hell in their religion."

Nonsense!  Sikhism does not teach about Heaven and Hell.  But bad karma can cause one to be born into Hell on earth.  And there are no Hells in early Vedic literature.  But in later literature a Hell doctrine (naraka) is widely taught.   Buddhism also teaches that there are Hells.  Of course, most can significantly come to terms with their negative karma and gain release.  But the New Testament also teaches the possibility of release from Hell. 

Jainism has 8 hells, each progrsssively colder and more horribble.  Coldness is a standard feature of the Christian view of Hell in the 2nd century.   One is directly born into a Jain Hell as a result of negative karma and is usually confined there for billions of years.

Jai 'n 'elle is a funny projection of Isis ... cool thought slowed to a stop or is that the emotion that halted?

I have read a grea deal of Scott Peck and I suspect (not knowing anything according to experts beyond myself) that he does as I do ... go to church to study the deamons. In some history demons are our unknown fears and doesn't mankind love to prey on those things? Now I went to church as a kid and my elders scared bejesus out of me ... no room for a thought in a totally emotional vessel (soul, psyche ... whatever metaphysical container you need for thoughts).

Imagine now a Roman stating that a thinking man is dangerous ... apporach that fear with care and you might find another Roman proverb:"Salvation in in knowing!" Parphrased or pars'd we could call that salvation is in the light of seeing through your fears and the Christian Bible tells us 366 times at least not to fear ... get a grip on your monster and use it with caution not anger, but extremists love to swing anything as a weapon. Look at Samson he swung the jawbone of an as 's and ŒZeus he flew into the physical realm on the back of as 's, is that top bottom or sides of abstract space of all that surrounds emerging Light.

I go to church to study demons, have you ever found more fears than one would find at church? What else will move a person in the direction of the irrational Nos. ... unless perhap you find some odd creatures there that teach in the way of calm and silence while communicating with the anima ... I guess I'm beyond that right into the fray ... struggling with the shallow Ego wishing to be aware of what the others deny .... a universal wisdom. Good lord isn't that like a God buried in space like a deamon as viewed from the other side of the line? Crazy from this perspective then I guess it make me giggle while passing from the other side of the line too ... mere images in the pool that eacj side differentiates with various fears coloured in various spectra of color ... some are fearful of thought. I could tell you of those but that's a sacred matter like ... o' I can't tell you that either ... one is disallowed from telling a truth that would injure the powers ... a hinderance of our social order in learning ... expecially when you can't teach the wee bits way under that caste (that's a wee chit in some tongues). Can you imagine how theres words got in the common vernacular over millenia ... the mind evaluating alien thoughts must be incomprehensible, but hoo dah known as mortal don't go there ... even doubt and fear it's existance ... blame it on the Alexandrian way ... if it doesn't stay on one side of the loam drive it out somewhere where it is felt ... a crude fabric of intuition without even having to think about IT? It was all felt before so now you just become a creature of clear thought like crystal grey'll ... ich ai for a whine ... the silence there just goes on and on, one must get back in the struggle and see why this anima continue to kill. Solve it and your washed and recycled ... the higher castes think it is too much fun like the Area just a Circe of life and death ... when people loose their fear they won't do what the dumb powers wish ... that might be a good thing ... individual thought with feeling connections ... Tiye in ancient Jibe 'n!

Good points, and I agree.

In the same manner, when things don't go well, some have a tendency to blame God.

"Why does God let these really bad things happen, ie., the flooding and deaths in Australia, mud slides in Brazil, the death of a police officer in Toronto, people who daily battle diseases such as cancer?"

Is God working with the devil?

Good points, and I agree.

In the same manner, when things don't go well, some have a tendency to blame God.

"Why does God let these really bad things happen, ie., the flooding and deaths in Australia, mud slides in Brazil, the death of a police officer in Toronto, people who daily battle diseases such as cancer?"

Is God working with the devil to test us?

I've been to churches like that...............

Then I remembered what Jesus had to say about love, and now attend a church that instructs the congregation to live out God's Kingdom here on Earth.

My spirit is now at peace.

PP,

Even though we go to church and try and love the deficient ... does it amaze you how little they'd like to receive of your attention and how much of your coine?

It is enough to amuse tha dark side, that portion of the church those burning brightly cannot see. Now the intellect is said to be all about us as a kingdom of learning ... how long would it take for those suffering emotions to learn all that ... a huge painful process?

Then, is there something about patience; are we perfect or mortally flawed for a reason? No wonder creation produced a sense of dampened balance ... the rocking will slow in time ... but the timed will always remain the same outside the realm of mind ... emotionally disturbed ... like a stirred kettle of fish ... with someone always poking to see what's wrong with eM ...

Call me the devil disturbing the qualm but an old fisherman fiend of mine said you'd never catch anything moving unless you woke the whole flood ... i guess we're a bit dozy ... contrary to the suggestions of the subliminal side ... entomed Je Seus? Like a book, the mind of a mortal is seldom functioning ... alien thing in spaces that are often going all the time ...