Hi James:

I participated in that questionaire, and would be interested in reading the book. Are you proposing to make it into the subject of study for a WonderCafe book study group?

Anyone else out there interested in studying the book and discussing it here on the café?

Hi Arminius

I don't have the book yet. But as I read it I'll put my comments here.

The book is -

Rats. I thought it was going to be a book about fishing written by one Diana Butler.

(From http://day1.org/3655-does_the_church_have_a_future__diana_butler_bass)

It would be great to discuss this book on WonderCafe!

I just bought "Christianity for the Rest of Us" at Presbytery. I love that video clip Aaron. Thanks for sharing it. Our congregation is at a transitional phase where we could be doing some neat things. I also believe we need to do something different from what we have always done. I'm not sure what that might be.....yet.

Coming up in March - the EDGE Network for Ministry Development is hosting a webinar -

• Christianity After Religion: Exploring the 3Bs of Faith: Belief, Behaviour, and Belonging – March 14th @ 7pm EST with Diana Butler-Bass

Would be great if a bunch of folks here tuned in & then we could discuss it further ... sounds very interesting, based on that brief video Aaron posted (thanks for that BTW!)  I will have to see if I can find the book too.

That looks interesting. How do we access the webinar?

You just go to the EDGE website & register - generally they are FREE!!  So it just gets better & better doesn't it?   I see registratiion is not yet open for this particular webinar - but keep checking back - here's the link.

http://www.edge-ucc.ca/webinars/

Also take a look at some of their archived webinars while you're there - lots of great stuff - some churches actually have had a few people gather to listen together  & then discuss.  Personally, I've just listened at my home computer.   

A BIG THANKS to the United Church for providing these amazing learning opportunities!

First - It doesn't look like we got acknowledged by Diana in the "Thanks to .." section.

And - Here is a quote from "The Beginning" (page 5) -

   I believe that the United States (and not only the United States) is caught up in the throes of a spiritual awakening, a period of sustained religious and political transformation during which our ways of seeing the world, understanding ourselves, and expressing faith are being, to borrow a phrase, "born again". Indeed, the shifts around religion contribute to the anxiety, even as anxiety gives rise to new sorts of understandings of God and the spiritual life. Fear and confusion signal change. This transformation is what some hope will be a "Great Turning" toward a global community based on shared human connection, dedicated to the care of our planet, committed to justice and equality, that seek to raise hundreds of millions from poverty, violence, and oppression.

Do you think there is such a change underway, or are we simply falling off the good old path we should be staying on?

I watched Diana's video and my comment is - the church still doesn't seem to want to change. "Bringing ashes out into the street" says to me that "we" aren't going to change our basic beliefs, but we are open to new techniques, new theatrics.

I don't see this as "Spiritual Awakening"

From my limited eading of DBB I have concluded that she is historically naive--a mouthpiece for the wishful thinking of so-called "progressive" churches in headlong decline.  In general, American Christianity is in decline, but conservative evangelical churches are in lesser decline and many of their churches are growing in leaps and bounds.  Some conservative charismatic denominations are thriving. 

A true barometer of the true global situation is the American United Methodist Church, a  denomination which is ideologically quite close to the UCCan.  If the American UMC had its way, gay marriage and gay ordination would gain approval.  But such decisions are made by the quadrennial conference which includes global UMC  representatives.  The UMC is declining at a lesser rate than other mainstream denominations ,but is still in decline.  However,  in Third World countries, there is a Great Awakening in UMC missions.  This phenomenal growth is a growth of old-time Wesleyan conservative beliefs and practices, and what it means is that gay marriage and ordination will be even more emphatically rejected at the next quadrennial conference than the previous ones.  This phenomenal growth in the 3rd World UMC guarantees their increasing number of voting representatives.  So if there is a Great Awakening, I think it will be among conservative charismatics and Third World traditionalists. 

Yes, I think there is a spiritual awakening underway. This spiritual awakening is a popular movement and appears to be part of the social and political transformation we are witnessing everywhere. I myself play an active part in the movement.

If this movement indeed leads to a universal spiritual culture—as I think, hope and pray it will—and displaces organized religion, then I welcome the fall of organized religion. But organized religion has the choice to metamorphose and join the movement.

I think there is a period of upheaval & change in the works at the moment.  It's consistent with Phylis Tickle's observation of this occuring about every 500 years in society - and as church is part of society, it too is subject to these forces.   Spirituality will go on, but 'church' or 'religion' will be subject to some major changes.

Chapter  One (I'm a slow reader) -

Diana seems to think there is a fourth "awakening" happening within the church that may have started in 1960.  Rev. David Ewart created some Excel graphs that wouldn't agree with this comment.

"http://www.davidewart.ca/2009/02/united-church-of-canada-people-trends.html"

According to Diana...

The "first" great awakening was 1730-60

The "second" was 1800-1830

The "third" was 1890 - 1920

"During each of these periods the old patterns of religious life gave way to new ones and, eventually, spawned new forms of organizations and institutions that interwove with social, economic, and political change and revitalized national life." (Page 29)

Arminius and Berserk - I have the sad feeling that Diana isn't talking about the church releasing its hold on religiosity and "awakening" to, and embracing, what I would call a true spirituality. As far as I have read I'm not seeing her speaking to those outside the church to get their feelings. I personally feel that the church will die unless it makes huge, huge changes. Handing ashes out to downtown Chicagoians (???) doesn't even come close.

In Chapter Two, Questioning the Old Gods, Diana looks at the changes humanity has undergone. She does that in three parts - What Do I Think,How Should I Act,Who Am I. She concludes the chapter with a quote - "...awakenings begin with a crisis of legitimacy and deviations from the old rules whereby the old norms cease to make sense as people begin to doubt their sense and their sanity and to search about for new gods, new ways to perceive and comprehend the power that guides the universe." - (William McLoughlin).

With this, she seems ready, in subsequent chapters, to launch into how the church should change, should become more spiritual.

But my question is - can the church change on its own, or do people outside the chuch, including those who have left, need to set the direction ?

How can those outside an institution change the institution? They've already used the only leverage that they have - their feet. They've chosen to either leave or not attend the church. If the church asks, they can give their reasons but it's the churches call on whether to listen to those reasons. An "Occupy Church" movement by ex-members could, I suppose, force movement on some issues but I don't really see it happening. Most who aren't in a church who really feel a need for a church would be more likely to just search about for a church that does work for them (as I did in moving from UCCan to UU). In short, the change, or at least the willingness to change, has to come from within. Outsiders have neither the leverage nor, in many cases, the interest to change an institution that they have already chosen to remain outside of.

Mendalla

Hi James: Thank you for keeping up the discussion on this important topic.

Any institution changes by the will of its members, but in a spiritual instiution there is also the will of the Creative Spirit of the cosmos that must be considered. And, if one wants to attract new members, there is the public will to consider.

Members or non-members can easily be polled—discerning the will of the Creative Spirit is the difficult part. And even after one has discerned that will, it may not be popular. The will of God, or the Creative Spirit, can only be discerned by the individaul going within and linking their mind with the creative power or force of the universe. This, I think, should be encouraged, inside and outside of church. The church that encuorages this, and expresses the newly emerged creative consciousness most eloquently, will survive and thrive—or go under for lack of popularity. It depends on what we, as a nation and as a species, want.

I'll make this my final posting on the book.

By the end (Chapter 9) Diana feels that the answer (the fourth awakening) is that the church should move toward "Religion and Spirituality". She also promotes the concept of "experiential faith" and I'm all for that.

Beyond these comments I'm not sure what she sees as "The Birth of a New Spiritual Awakening" as the book cover prominently says.

But she sees a possibility of great opposition to any change (remember she is an American, as in USA). She thinks that the religious right and the Tea Party could seriously oppose any changes.

What I see in "Religion and Spirituality" is that the existing church organization will define spirituality and will also maintain control over what can be spoken of, what books can be quoted, from the pulpit.

I think there is a convergence between science, art and spirtuality on the horizon. A spiritual and creative human culture will eventually emerge from this convergence. Denominations and congregations that embrace this, or, better yet, are at the leading edge of this change, will be the ones to survive. Even if a spiritual human culture puts an end to organized religion, then this end is necessary and good.

Mendalla - if a group of young people, for example, were to occupy a building (church) they would be indicating some value in that building. And I don't see that many (both young and old) see a great interest in physical structures. Instead, the church can solicite ideas from those outside and then ignore them, but at their peril.

Arminius - yes, the future of religion must be driven by an inner feeling for man's spiritual nature.

I'm working on the sermon for March 4th which is Mark 8:31 - "Get behind me Satan. You (Peter) are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things."

That statement is a great opportunity to explore man's/women's spiritual/divine nature and contrast it with human things. And that is where the sermon is heading at the moment.

Yes, and I think science will figure out what God is long before religion does - unless religion becomes more spiritual (and not "spiritual" as defined by the existing hierarchy).

Yes, James, I couldn't agree more.

I think science will eventually discover a "God-marker": the proof for a transcendental principle, power or force at work in the universe. I think science is almost there, if not already there.

Oh dear - your last post about the book jamesk& I've just bought the book today .... I'll have to read & then come back to read the posts I guess!

Hi Folks,

Just to let you know, Christianity After Religion: The End Of Church And The Birth Of A New Spiritual Awakening  is also available from UCRDstore.ca. Here's the link:

http://www.ucrdstore.ca/catalog/product/view/id/11765/s/christianity-after-religion-the-end-of-church-and-the-birth-of-a-new-spiritual-awakening/

Thanks!

Thanks Aaron - I bought mine at UCRD display at our Presbytery Networking Day on Saturday - always glad to support the UCRD when I can!  Also picked up a few other treasures too ... my reading list is getting longer!