In my experience, many Atheists reach out to other people in the same manner as we would reach out to God (in whatever form we percieve Her).

I know of some who "pray", but it's really more like meditation in that they are reaching into themselves rather than out to something. Even I tend to look at prayer that way more and more since I see Divinity/God as something within as well as something without.

Mendalla

Not in my experience.  It'd be like you calling out for help to The Great Pumkin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or indeed Mickey Mouse.  It would never occur to me in a million years. 

But I do say things like 'Oh, God', 'Thank God' or whatever, but in precisely the same way I might say: 'Oh s-word', 'Thank f-word' (and this is likely the only forum I wouldn't be specific... but ya know what I mean.)  And then there's sex ;-).    And if it's people I need for something, I don't think I've ever looked specifically to atheists - just friends, relatives, etc.  Who'd care what their beliefs are if you want help?

Bottom line is that I absolutely disagree with your:  "Everybody is in need of spiritual help in their lives."  ... Again, thinking of you re the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn might allow you to see my view - it'd be just inane.

Thanks Brett. But I think EVERBODY needs something sometime from somewhere. I don't think we would be human if we didn't.

Maybe you missed it, but I did put in 'people'.

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Please be reminded that others are just as entitled to theirs. Since you have not offered proof of your opinion, perhaps you should consider your position as fervently held, but unverified.

Oh, c'mon, Witch... I don't care it I was the only one on the planet that simply doesn't think of spiritual-anything, my statement that I absolutely disagree with: "Everybody is in need of spiritual help in their lives." is true.  I don't.  But of course, others don't either. 

I'm amazed - I can see that you and others need something 'spritual' (and thus have differences in belief than mine), but you seem to have blinders on to even the possibility that anyone might have differences in belief than yours... you surely cannot be that blind!  I am not like you!  (And you are not like me... so what?)

Perhaps if spiritual was replaced by some other word, it would fit better. Many atheists might talk about help with personal issues or just needing help with life and wouldn't use the 's' word. I know what Crazyheart was getting at with that phrase, but I also know it's not the language many of the atheists that I know would use. OTOH, I do know some atheists who are comfortable with the term "spiritual" but have redefined it in various ways to eliminate the supernatural implications.

Mendalla

Sure... Replace it with 'some' or just <null>... as in:

"Everybody is in need of some help in their lives."

"Everybody is in need of help in their lives."

It's been awhile since the Irony Meter has been up this high, and yet here it is going off the scale once more.

That's right - don't address the point that you can't seem comprehend my lack of spirituality and that my statement is therefore categorically true (rather than an opinion)... just bring up the (lol) irony meter.  Too funny!  Again, I am not even remotely the only one that negates the the validity of the:  "Everybody is in need of spiritual help in their lives." assertion in the OP - it just ain't true!  Not for 'everyone'.

I think the problem with people like BrettA, is that they see only what they believe the opinions of Atheists, and by extension science, should be.

The statement "everyone is in need of spiritual help in their lives" may be, on one hand, misleading in literality. There indeed may be a person here or there who does not. By the same standard, the statement "everyone feels pain" is also not true in literality. There are a few people here or there who do not feel pain. They are, however, the exception to the rule. The statement "everyone feels pain" is, however, contextually true, in that, rare exceptions aside, people do feel pain. There are also people who do feel pain, but won't admit it, even to themselves. The same could might also be true of those who are "religiously" athiest, who may adamantly deny any need for spirituality, because they will simply not permit themselves to believe in such a need in themselves. That is, of course speculation, but considering the pervasiveness of the subject, it certainly makes sense.

Modern psychology also seems to understand the importance of the concept of spirituality to the human race. It is a given fact that human beings, throughout history, from the most primitive spirituality to the most organized of religious instutions, have pursued spirituality. One does not have to subscribe to those beliefs to see the complete pervasiveness of spirituality in the human condition. Even humanism, derived from atheism as it is, has "spiritual" aspects, appealing to concepts such as altruism and community which are relatively unmeasurable by current scientific methods. One only need look to the most radical of Ahteists to see a very "religious" style of belief in play. A spirituality of unbelief, if you will.

There are a great many works by non-theological psychologists on the subject of the universality of the human need for spirituality. You will find very few modern psychologists or psychiatrists who would say that humans do not display a need for "spirituality". Whether the thing the need is directed at is real or fallacious seems to play very little role in the need itself.

References in support:

SPIRITUALITY AND PSYCHOLOGY with FRANCES VAUGHAN, Ph.D.
http://www.intuition.org/txt/vaughan.htm

The Psychology of Spirituality
by H.B. Danesh, M.D.
Paradigm Publishing
Victoria, Canada

Psychology of Religion and Spirituality™
Official Journal of APA Division 36 - Psychology of Religion
Editor: Ralph L. Piedmont

Spirituality and Psychology
Raymond Lloyd Richmond, Ph.D.
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/spirit.htm

CAN WE BE GOOD WITHOUT GOD?
Buckman Robert M.D.
Viking Books Canada

Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality
Nelson, James M.
Springer Pub

I'm in agreement with BrettA.  I, personally, do not feel any need for spiritual guidance or assistance.  I've not yet encountered such a calamity where I called out for divine inspiration or interference.  I may, on occasion, inadvertantly, blurt out 'jesus christ!' or 'oh god,' but they have no spiritual or religious conotations for me.  They are, as BrettA points out, the same as 'oh s*it! or the f-bomb or even 'damn it' and other similar expletives that illustrate my mood or reaction.

Indeed, I look into myself for understanding of certain dilemas or talk to trusted friends for their insights.  I can't imagine ever needing spiritual intervention because I simply don't recognize any spiritual force other than my own.  I remain curious about patterns and connections as well as other belief systems, but it is not because I am in search of a spiritual understanding.  It is simply an intellectual curiosity.  That's all.

Way out there:

Are you supposing that someone must believe in a "higher power" to be "spiritual"?

I do not. I know a great many Atheists who I would consider to be very spiritual, many of those even use the term in reference to themselves.

One of my favorite atheists, Canadian author Mark Kingwell, has always struck me as remarkably spiritual. He takes leaps of faith all the time. But he understands them differently than a theist would. For example, he believes that there is no way that he will ever become wise unless he surrenders / gives himself over to the process of doing philosophy. He went to a Jesuit high school, though, so he may not be typical.

*Sigh*... I'm not saying we're not a minority - there are only 600,000,000 - to 700,000,000 atheists as I recall and I don't know how many of those don't see anything spriritual in any way, but the vast majority of atheists I do know think this way.  And unlike you with me - I'm not negating your beliefs at all - in fact, I specifically recognised them.  But I just spoke to three atheists to confirm that I'm not mis-representing them...  I am not in any of those cases.  And I note that WOT also agrees.  You do indeed have blinders on that apparently disallows acknowledgement of large numbers us of, but I'll read some of your cites and possibly look at others.

CR."Who do Atheists call out to in their time of need ?  To other Atheists?: To themselves? Or do they never need to call out to anyone or any thing?"

They call their mom and more than likely she'll pray for them.

The point is that atheism is not incompatible with spirituality.  It is incompatible with Theism, but there are many other kinds of spirituality.

LOL... My Mom and Dad and three of 4 grandparents and some great-grandparent were all atheist. 

No, Witch, I am not suggesting that one needs to recognize a higher power to be spiritual.  I didn't think that I had inferred that, but can understand how that may have been perceived in my earlier post.

I simply stated that I do not feel I need to call out to a spiritual force, whatever that may be.  I seek to find the answers to my questions and challenges within myself and that includes expanding my knowledge and understanding.  Maybe that could be understood as seeking personal spiritual guidance from myself.  I guess it could, but I don't see it that way.  It's a personal thing.  I only speak for myself in this regard.  I am merely agreeing with BrettA that not everyone feels a need for spiritual help, as was asserted in the original poster's (crazyheart) thread introduction.

Absoluttely!  No question.  But far from every atheist is spiritual.

I don't pray to a supernatural interventionist God simply because I don't believe in such a God.

My prayers are meditative or contemplative: a turning inward, away from the incessant chatter of my thoughts and the distractions of the everyday world.

Those who are offened by the word "prayer" can call it "meditation." Same thing—different word.

In deep meditation I experience what I call the "ultimate" or "undifferentiated" reality: the cosmic whole in state of synthesis. Because the cosmic whole is self-creative, and includes the creator power of the universe, I see nothing wrong with calling IT "God." My "God," however, ist unitive. IT unites creator and created and the transcendental power of creating into one inseparable "Holy Trinity."

All this can be said in non-religious terms and concepts. Same thing—different words. Experiencing IT is what matters.

Fair enough.

And just to clarify, it's not only the lack of any need for spiritual help in my and many other cases...  Anything 'spiritual' is as real or valid to me as the Flying Spaghetti Monster is likely to be to a firm theist...  that is, not at all (I'd guess - lol)

In your opinion.

You might want to look back, beyond your relatively brief history here, at my previous posts regarding atheism. I've always been a staunch opponent of the religious fundies misrepresentation of what Atheism is, and what it represents. For instance, most fundie posts here that claim that Atheism is a religion are followed shortly by my rebuttal pointing out that Ahteism cannot be a religion when one examines the actual defintion of religion in it's most precise form, i.e. a belief in a God or higher power.

However, just as I oppose fundeism in religious persons, I also oppose it in those who claim to be atheist, but who espouse as absolute truth, stated or implied, things which are unverifiable, under the guise of atheism.

I don't recall anyone saying that every Atheist is spiritual. Please point out where that was stated.

Sauce for the goose...

And to clarify further...

The subject was not whether things "spiritual" are valid, but whether the human need for spirituality, in this case in the form of "spiritual help", exists.

Two very different things, but apparently very easily confused. So far we have seen that such a concept can exist outside of theology, and is not necessarily at odds with Atheism

Hi crazyheart:

A Canadian asked a visitor from China: "Do they pray in China?"

"Play in China?" the visitor echoed with a grin. "Yes, evely molning and evely night."

_____________________________________________________________

With those undies you are displaying as your latest avatar, I bet there is more playing than praying going on in your bedroom, eh, crazyheart?

I can't recall sincerely praying....ever.  I've uttered a few 'prayers' just loud enough for the intended audience to hear, but the intended audience was always the people within earshot, not up in the sky.  On those occasions where church attendance is mandatory, I don't even bow my head.  I just respectfully stand or sit there, waiting for lightning to strike me dead.  So far, no dice.

I can not recall a major moment or event in my life where I have thanked, asked, beseeched, or otherwise consulted a higher power.  It doesn't occur to me to try.  In times of great loss, I take comfort in family and friends.  They have't failed me yet.  If they do, I'll try alcohol next.  I hear good things about it.

I think Brett has invoked the FSM before, so I'll use it again.  I don't talk to God for the same reason many of you don't talk to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Seriously.  No joke.  I would feel as weird 'praying' to one as I would to the other, and I would expect about the same reply from both.

I occasionally use the Lord's name in vain, but mostly out of habit.  I mean nothing by it, except as a verbal exclamation point.  I try very hard not to type like that, because I get the impression if I typed something like, "God, you're stupid", some here would latch on to the reference and think I subconsciously believed in God, while the truth of what I believed was staring them in the face.

Like Brett, I suppose, I'm simply not spiritual, and I don't feel a need.  Some people are, and/or do.  Not everybody.

/My keyboard is dying (should I pray for a new one, or for this one to be healed?)  Seriously - my apologies for any typos I didn't catch.

Errr...  Sorry? - this was directed to RevMatt, not you - see the 'quote thingy'*, please?  And I mentioned "far from every atheist", BTW.

*'Quote thingy's a technical term if'n you don't know'.

I have no problem with your history - I was responding to current text.

I know who it was directed at. I was pointing out that it appeared nobody had said what you were claiming was being said. And I was giving you an opportunity to show me if I was in error.

Context aside, I was being specific at pointing out your error, and challenging you for it, even though I am aware of what you meant, in order to catch you flat footed.

Sauce for the goose...

Sorry you're confused - can I help clarify for you?

More precisely you were making a judgement call on what you assumed my meaning was.

Such judgement calls are usually wrong, which is why it is common practice in civilized discussion to ask the person what he or shee means, when that meaning is unclear, rather than challenging them on what you want to assume they mean.

I did show your error...  You raised some irrelevany point about "every atheist" while I pointed out to my text:  "And I mentioned "far from every atheist", BTW."  Two hugely different points.

LOL Arminius, These are my spiritual undies.

I am reading, but even if it is not called spirituality, I can't get my head around Atheists who say they have no inner anything.Is this not a part of you that is missing ? ummmmm, do you think you have a soul?

In your opinion....

I sincerely doubt that you are capable of that.

Please point out where I said anything about "every Atheist"

I don't recall anyone saying that every Atheist is spiritual. Please point out where that was stated.

Sauce for the goose...

[/quote]

You missed it - I was pointing to the fact above where when responding to my "far from every atheist", you somehow morphed that into something unrelated... about not saying something about every atheist.  What's the connection?  If you're going to refer to what I write, it helps not change the context.  ...  'Bye fer a bit!

I know.  Isn't it sad?  We're clearly dead inside....

My life insurance company took great pains (mostly mine) to confirm that I have all my parts and they function correctly.

No.

Yeah, that seems to be a problem for many with - sorry - unfounded beliefs (i.e. beliefs with no empirical evidencce), but it is indeed true.  And most natural, at least if you've been raised that way from birth.  And it's not that people asserted... "There's nothing spiritual, Brett" - the subject of anything 'spiritual' or 'supernatural' just never came up at home, so until I asked (age 10 or so?), it just wasn't a 'concept' at all.

Not when you've been raised this way... Again, it's like you and say, the Flying Spaghetti Monster - is anything missing?  No.  And no... soul's a genre of music.  And nothing 'missing' at all here, thanks.

I came across this question and please I am not calling anyone here this.

Are Psychopaths The Only People Without Souls?
 

What is your answer to the question?

Uhhh.  Nope.  No connection.  That's as illogical and unfounded as...

Are Psychopaths The Only People With 'Souls'?

Hmmm...  Lemme rethink this...  ( I've really gotta go now... 'Bye and thanks fer the question  :-) )

It depends on how you define souls, I suspect. If you define soul as the non-physical, spiritual/supernatural component of a person that survives the body, then most atheists that I know would disagree since they don't accept the existence of such a thing. If you define soul as a set of values and relationships that help define an individual (ie. something more akin to "character" or "personality"), then you could probably get at least some of them to agree. Personally, I've believed in the latter conception of soul for a long time and am still on the fence as to whether I am an atheist or not, although I'm starting to think that I've been there for a while and just haven't accepted it.

Mendalla

I am sorry if I derailed my own thread but it seems that spirituality, "heart",  and soul  all fall into the same category. I have known people who don't profess to "believe" in anyone religion or entity but have all these charactaristics .  So I think that even though some disagree, there is sonmething or someone that these people need in time of trouble. But, of course, as you all know, I have been known to be wrong.

And we're agreeing that atheism (non-belief) and some form of spirituality (esp. given how subjective the term can be) are not mutually exclusive.  It really just sounds like you managed to find at least two psychopaths atheists who were never baptized (based on what Brett wrote earlier about his folks), never went to Sunday school, and just never believed in gods, spirits, souls, or Billy Graham.  My parents never bashed religion - they just didn't practice it.  Kids would ask me what religion I belonged to.  I told them that skiing was my religion.  It was bad enough that I didn't play hockey, but I also didn't believe in God?  To be fair, it wasn't traumatic or anything.  In fact, one of my oldest friends is a committed Christian.  We used to trash talk each other about it, in a good natured way.  He tried a couple times to convert me, bringing me to youth groups.  My folks didn't have a problem with that, but it never "took".

I'm used to people not believing my lack of belief, so while the common reaction here is nothing new to me, I still find it puzzling.  As Dawkins has said, with all the failed gods throughout history, everybody knows what it is not to believe in a god.  All you have to do to imagine my position, is go one god further.

Hi crazyheart:

The Greek word for soul is psyche. Well, if "soul" is a dirty word to atheists, they can always call it "psyche." Sounds more respectable and less superstitious.

Those atheists who are scathingly critical of religion are not really a-theists or non-theists but anti-theists. They are as absolutist in their anti-theism as some Christian fundamentalists are in their theism.

That religion is rooted largely in the spiritual, mystical or religious experience, and the outward expression of such experience metaphorical, and that this is indeed the stance of most liberal and progressive Christians, seems to escape these anti-religious zealots who seem to equate all Christian religion with Biblical literalism, absolutism, and fundamentalism. They come to a UCC website and rant and rave against Christian fundamentalism without realizing that the United Church is not a fundamentalist denomination. Although we have our share of conservatives and traditionalists, the UCC probably is the most open-minded and inclusive major Christian denomination in Canada.

Please define "spiritual".

There's an old expression: "There are no athiests in foxholes."

Blondin, spirituality means different things to different people in different cultures.But I think this is part of what I think it is.

 We are are surrounded by spirituality everyday. The definition of spirituality is that which relates to or affects the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. Spirituality touches that part of you that is not dependant on material things or physical comforts.

However, as some posters have pointed out, they don't have a soul or a human spirit, so I don't know what they call whatever it is that affects their inner being.