HB22

Yes we do live multiple lives! It is one of the key elements in my belief system.

HB22

Definitely! I agree with JamesK. Its one of my basic beliefs too. I'm too tired to post more right now but maybe I'll get back tomorrow. Meanwhile here's some videos about it from a Christian perspective re Father Peter. I love Father Peter!

Hi happybee:

If, as I believe, the kosmos is a self-generative singularity, a monad, an indivisible whole in a state of synthesis, then the kosmic we lives an infinite number of lives, dies in every death and incarnates itself in every birth.

Then every one of us is an incarnation of the kosmic deity.

Hi

We live only once. That is a Christian belief and I believe it too.

Belief in reincarnation makes one's life not as important, it is like we have not just one but many more chances of doing it right. In fact we have only once chance and if we get it completely wrong ... Then there is a mercy of God, but we will need to ask for it.

Take care

Mia: your quote:

Belief in reincarnation makes one's life not as important.

This is a belief shared by the church fathers when they took it out of the bible. The Jews have always believed in it even to this very day although they may not talk about it. At the Passover Seder they set a plate for Elijah and leave the door open. He is to return before their Messiah comes.

The hope is that one day we may be perfected in love. Love is the reason for our existence. So, if we waste our lives we will go round on the wheel for many more years. As the Buddhists believe all life is suffering we will suffer and we have chosen to suffer by not striving to draw close to God.

As you give so shall you receive; as you reap so shall you sow; what goes around comes around. Jesus taught this. It may not always apply in this life but it may apply to our past lives or future lives. It all sounds simple and silly but its quite complicated if you study it. Then too, not everyone will reincarnate.

Father Peter teaches us to live a good life in the here and now. That's what's really important so no need to believe in reincarnation or to worry.

Stardust

Let's say that someone believes in reincarnation, dies and it turns out it was not true. There is a judgment, no turning back, no more chances.

From that point of view, the safer way is to assume that there is no reincarnation.

There is also another point to this. If you believe in spiritual world of good spirits and evil spirits (satan), you might want to consider another possibility. Satan works on having us damned so we do not reach our salvation. He does it by lies and reincarnation might be just another lie causing us to not take that one chance we have seriously enough.

Mia

That fallacy is known as Pascal's Wager, it's a common example of faulty logic, and it fails on many levels, not the least of which is that if your're wrong, and let's say the Muslims are right.... you're hooped too.

Besides which, do you really think God wouldn't be able to see through "hedging your bets"?

Another fallacy of logic. You've failed to apply your critique to your own beliefs. Considering the complete lack of objective evidence, it's just as likely that Satan has lied to you, to keep you from reaching salvation.

Reall, though, we've been through all this fundie crap a hundred times. Why not read back a few threads so you don't jut keep repeating the same stuff that has been already well refuted?

I believe in reincarnation, after the Celtic philosophy.

I believe that all times are now, that all lives are now, that what we see as past, or future lives all radiate out from the true soul. Each one a finger reaching out to learn a lesson. Each one bringing the true soul closer to the end of the journey.

all over the world it has been documented that when the body is close to death, millions of people on the earth has experienced what some call supernatural life/death experiences. Either being outside of themselves looking down at their own body. Or being outside of their body seeing an image of themselves coming out of them. Now these people are of different races, cultures, languages and beliefs. But the data has been millions giving simular or even identical accounts of their experience. I personally stayed in a coma from a very long time. I remember looking at my self as though I was floating at top of the ceiling. many have also spoken of a light and moving through some type of tunnel, or traveling at a very fast speed just a few feet above a large body of water. Some believe that god allows these experiences to remind mankind that the rapture of persons whom believe in christ is very possible. scripture says that just before the Anti-Christ places the world at its highest point of tribulation, The rapture of the church(the body of christ) will be taken. There souls will be taken up off the earth. Now some people believe that this would appear to be mass death, millions or billions of people all at the same time dying with in a split second. Because the prophecy says that it will happen in the blink of an eye. Others believe it will manifest as a disappearance of millions or billions of people all vanishing at the same second. this is called the rapture of the church. At the time the bible says there would be tribulation like the world has never known. In fact it states that every corner of the world will have not peace. there would be killing, and wickness it says, beyond man's imagination. Then Jesus will come back.  So many believe that these life death experiences are to allow man to see that they do have a spirit that lives after the body dies. Some believe that god has given millions this testimony in order to cause mankind to see that there is and will be a salvation. That time when many would be salvaged from a completely wicked, disobedient world. So, is there life after death? According to biblical studies. Absolutely. Therefore; the question is not will we live forever? But the question is where will we spend eternity. And that's a whole different topic. 

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way to know for sure whether or not there is another life after the one we live now. Anything that anybody tells you about what happens after we die is a speculation, and any theories that are come up with in the future will always be based on speculation, because there is no way to experimentally test the afterlife, or to observe it while being alive. Even those that have gone through near-death experiences do not have any authoratative knowledge on the afterlife because they are only clinically dead (meaning their heart has stopped and their blood doesn't flow through their veins) but their brains are still alive (and oxygen-deprived from the lack of blood flow, which causes the crazy halloucinations and whatever else is experienced).

I personally believe that there is no afterlife, because I believe that the brain is purely physical, because all the evidence suggests that the mind is the brain at work, which means that when the brain dies (and therefore no longer works), the mind ceases to exist, which means no afterlife. However, this is still only a speculation because there is no way to test this, but I find it to be the most reasonable of all of the speculations about what will happen after we die.

Just remember that nobody has any authority on what happens after we die, and nobody has the actual answer, so you can believe whatever you want, but at least try to make sure that whatever you believe has some basis in reason.

I see this type of argument so often and it breaks my heart.  It assumes and implies that people only do the "right" thing, that we only try our best, if we have fear of consequences.  That is not true for me, nor is it for many of my athieist friends.  My twenties were characterized by severe lessons learned the hard way as a result of bad choices.  That is different, however, than living in fear.

I have posted before on my experience that there are (at least) two types of knowing, mental knowing-understanding and Inner Knowing, a place near my solar plexus that is where I feel loving and peace and God.

That place tells me there is more than one life for us in the context you are asking (we all live more than one life in the literal sense that stars explode and spew matter which coalesces into carbon based life forms, etc etc).

You made a misstatement that it is a Christian belief that there is only one life, though I agree that this is true of most Christians and Christian sects...  I am a Christian Minister, for example.  You seem to be overlooking some of the political history of the Bible and parts that were deleted.

I know that I have had other existences, and they enrich and inform my life and help me live more effectively, more wisely and more in service to the Lord.  It's no different for me than my twenties, a time where I learned by making mistakes.... Your question seems to imply that you would discard your younger years and experiences if you could.

tonton

I know what you're saying and I know your beliefs. I've read many near death experiences where most people say they've discovered God has no religion. God isn't Christian or Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist or Wicca. It is true that those who pass over with a fixed belief in Jesus as an example may experience Jesus while others may experience a no name spiritual love.

In attempting to portray paradise after death its my belief that there's a lot of imagery used in the bible. The idea is that the saints will be there for 1000's of years singing glory to God and praising God. Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me that God would offer anything so mundane and narrow as this. The God I know is a God of creativity first and foremost and we who are made in God's image are also creative. The whole universe is evolving being creative as is nature and yet as souls after death we would be consigned to a kind of never ending spiritual boredom. I fail to believe in anything like this. The Catholics believe that the saints in heaven will be able to watch the souls being tortured in hell. Oh...that's so very pretty!  What great delights the saints shall have! Its totally preposterous.

I believe  as spirits we will join with God in creativity after we cross over. I'm not sure how it will be accomplished but we will continue to learn. There will be something for us to do. We know that even on earth paradise for many of us means being active; having a job, raising a family etc. so your idea of  paradise is offering us even less. We will become blobs of nothingness or energy praising God?  So....God can create an interesting earth but not an interesting heaven? It all sounds like a stagnant pool of water. Who would want to go there?

O.K. end of rant....lol...but its for this reason I believe in reincarnation or there may be great magnificent libraries in heaven where we can learn about the universe and the heavens. Its an active place where we will all be busy learning, whether we stay there or choose to come back to earth.

Here's a bit more about the church:

In Christianity for instance, the great majority of Christian groups deny reincarnartion. It was not always thus; Origen, an early Christian theologian that lived during the third century, wrote that "The soul has neither beginning nor end… [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives" (De Principiis). This belief was not unique to Origen; many early Christians believed that the soul exists prior to the conception and birth of a person. In AD 553, more than three hundred years after Origen's death, the Emperor Justinian issued an edict against Origen, and convinced the Pope to convene the Second Council of Constantinople (which the Pope then refused to attend). This Council issued "The Anathemas Against Origen" (an "anathema" is an offense worthy of excommunication and damnation). The first sentence reads, "IF anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."

The Anathemas Against Origen not only suppressed the teachings of Origen within the Church, but also any teaching supportive of Origen's views on the pre-existence of the soul. Anyone espousing such beliefs could be excommunicated from the Church, or worse. The taboo against belief in pre-existence or reincarnation survived the reformation, and to this day few Christian demominations embrace the possibility that a soul might exist through multiple lifetimes. However, some sects, such as the Liberal Catholic Church, include the concept of reincarnation in their doctrine. Some Hasidic Jews also include this doctrine.
 

There are those who feel that after Constantine made Christianity the state religion in 360 AD, Christianity became tainted with elements of Paganism. After that, the church began to select acceptable doctrines based in part on what would cause the church (and its leaders) to have the greatest influence in society. If someone believed that they had multiple lifetimes to gain favor with God, they might not be as inclined to obey the church teachings, or to serve the church leaders. On the other hand, if people could be convinced that they had but one lifetime to "get it right", and that eternal punishment in hell awaited those who failed to heed the teachings of the church, they would be more inclined to do whatever the church leaders expected of them, including supporting the church financially. It therefore would not come as any surprise that a church that had strayed from the original teachings of Jesus would emphasize doctrines that increased the amount of control that the church had over its members.

bible and reincarnation
http://www.mandrake-press.co.uk/Main_article/reincarnation.html

May a Christian believe in reincarnation?

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_xtian_believe_reinc.asp

So there is the theory that reincarnation is not incompatible with Christianity, but was suppressed by the church in order to increase the power and influence of that institution. The texts that offered the greatest support to official church doctrine were made part of biblical canon; those that tended to reduce the influence of the church were declared as heresy.

A Jewish Prayer

Today, after a private recitation of the Song of Songs, an orthodox Jew recites the following in a prayer: "...May we attain to that place from which all spirits and souls have come forth, and may we be credited with having fulfilled all that we have been charged to accomplish, whether in this incarnation or in another incarnation, and to be among those who ascend and merit the world to come together with the other saints and righteous...."14

my father in law once said something about reincarnation that has always stuck with me. reincarnation is constant.  we are reborn through creation.  my son was born to me carrying my dna along with the dna of all his ancestors. 

one example, my son is an "old soul" who began whistling EXACTLY like his great-grandfather one day (who died over 20 years ago) at the age of 2.  it was eerie.  my fil's version makes sense to me.  coincidence, maybe.  i like the idea that my grandad is in there somewhere much better.

there is also a christmas song that talks about christ being reborn in the hearts of men.  that the child is "born again" every christmas. i love that song. 

it reminds me that love conquers all.  even death.

j

I blieve that we live our life once.  We do it as best as we can, being the imperfect creatures that we are.

I do not believe in reincarnation.

I believe in a life after death with God and Jesus but I have no concept of what that is.  I believe I will see my loved ones there, but I have no idea of what form they will be. 

I certainly believe that through our DNA, we continue our presence on earth.  Through our ancestors and from our ancestors.  But as an individual entity , this is my time on earth.

I believe that you can go back to roots of the idea in different cultures or faith, certainly.

What can I say? Other than I believe I don't know everything and that much is possible that I do not get.... and not having died that I recall and come back or stayed dead, all I can say is "I don't know".

The idea has been around longer than most religions practiced here. It is certainly a key element of both Hinduism and Buddhism.

My Jewish background certainly never slammed the door on the idea. It was talked about by Ramban and Ari. It was  in the Zohar, as well as the insinuation in the OT, like in the story of Job. One might say insinuated even in the NT by people asking about someone being Elijah, Elisha, John....

Paul, in writing to the Hebrews,  certainly did not seem to believe in it.

As far as the evolution of the idea, whether the answer is "yes" or "no", it came about from a human need to try to understand the unknown....to understand birth and death, death and dying, what is beyond the stopping of breath.... it often evolved out of reading another's words, like the example of OT or NT verses,  and deciding what they meant when they said them....

Uhh, not really. He would only get half of your DNA and half of his father's. He wouldn't have all the DNA of his ancestors because DNA doesn't work that way. You get one set of of chromosomes from each parent, not an anthology. Even if you did, this doesn't defend reincarnation.

so kr, what you are saying is that there is no genetic relationship between individuals?

I've read some interesitng evidence for re-incarnation, which I was inclined to believe, and also payed close attention when I was pregnant, and had some pretty re-incarnationy dreams. A few years later I inquired at a local hypnosis place that does past life regression therapy, just to see if I could find any proof in the depths of my own mystic memory, but alas, the reply I got was that the therapy was really only for people who had an illness that no other therapy was working on, and in the way she said it, I understood that the regression only works for those who need it to work, and that I wouldn't find any proof there. She had realized for herself that it's not real, and that was enough for me. So I don't believe it. At least not a sentient re-incarnation.

By all means energy does get recycled from one bunch of humans to the next, but I don't believe there are "souls" moving from one body to another. I do however believe that we can have genetically inherrited memories, that are tapped into once in a while, passed down in the dna.

How did you infer that? All I was saying is that DNA isn't an anthology of one's ancestral heritage, it's instructions for building proteins.

This doesn't really make sense when one considers the actual nature of DNA. If memories were implanted in cells, then they would be implanted into individual neurons, but then what? Would every single cell in our bodies then somehow figure out that a new memory got implanted in that one neuron and then all adopt it? This would have to be the case in order for the DNA to ever make it to a sperm or egg cell. And would this happen for every memory or what? When one considers Ockham's razor, and has a basic understanding of molecular genetics, there is absolutely no reason to believe in the possibility of genetic memories.

HB22

Assuming you need some "facts" with which to write your paper - look for any book by Dr. Ian Stevenson. He has done considerable research on children who seem to have reincarnated.

How did you infer that? All I was saying is that DNA isn't an anthology of one's ancestral heritage, it's instructions for building proteins.

when i had mentioned that my son carried my dna as well as the dna of his ancestors you said, not so.  for example, my maternal dna was what i received from my mother, which was passed on by her mother, which was passed on by her mother and so on. we can trace my maternal lineage back in time.  my dna doesn't just stop at what my mother and father gave me.  that is why although my husband and i do not have red hair, my son does.  he gets it from his paternal grandfather.  yes, dna is a code (instructions), but this code (instruction) has been created over time.  if my dna stopped at my kids than what would prevent my kids from marrying my brother's kids.  cf runs on my husband's side of the family.  neither one of my kids have it.  that doesn't mean that their kids do not have a chance of having it.  the sequence in my mitochondrial dna can evaluate where my ancestors came from.  there are bits and pieces of them there.  that's what i was trying to say.

i don't know kr, are we just misunderstanding each other, or is it that you like to pick on me.  i think you missed me and are just trying to get my attention.  a simple hello would have been suffice ;) *lol*

One of the differences Mia, between a basic Christian belief and that of a person who believes in multiple lives is what we mean by "doing it right".

The basic Christian belief seems to be that we agree with and accept Jesus as a personal friend, protector, savior, etc. It takes perhaps 10 minutes to make this decision and then you behave the rest of your life and you've "done it right."

But for those who believe in multiple lives, as I do, there is a huge amount to learn, there is an ego that has to be undone, and there are many roles that have to be experienced. It has to be constantly worked at. But the good part is there is no deadline. God knows that all will eventually get it right. It just takes time.

Which brings up a point from Witch - in reality there is no time and so the full understanding that we hope to achieve at the en dof multiple lives has already happened. The problem is we don't know it yet.

For a materialst perspective, try Douglas Hofstadter's I am a Strange Loop, in which he posits the idea that one's consciousness "lives on" through the copies of ourselves imprinted in others' minds.  Not precisely analogous to reincarnation or notions of heaven, but it's a little different than the standard "no".

It doesn't defend reincarnation in the traditional sense, but it does defend my opinion of reincarnation.  that it is constant and not the notion that i would die and come back as a different colour, sex and on the opposite side of the planet (which i would have an open mind to given someone else's knowledge/perspective on the subject). but that a part of us lives on, always.  even if it's only a small part.

Uh,  to KR79 and Momsfruitcake,

We do carry ancestral dna. Genetic studies can trace roots back many generations through common genetic markers.

Not everything gets passed down, but there are traits that can go way back.

Though KR79's bio course may be more up-to-date than mine, I'm prety sure this is so.

LL&P

Spoke

thanks spoke :)

sparring with kr always keeps me on my toes and a little nervous since my last bio class, which i probably skipped to go hang out with my friends*lol*, was about 15 years ago.

But to the thread....

Do we live more than one life?

Constantly.

Everyone of us is a test case for all the heritable bits that were tested and managed to make it this far since the species began.

We live all past lives and we live all future lives in living genes.

(ref. Dawkins  the Selfish Gene)

LL&P

Spock

momsfruitcake

I think what KR was saying was that a child gets 1/2 it's dna from each parent.

so your child has 1/2 of you and you have 1/2 of your mom so he only has 1/4 of your mom and so and so on.

Certainly we carry traits of our ancestors and sometimes it is obvious in genetic mutations that travel through a family.  but it is a stretch to think that a child born now has the DNA pattern of 10 generations ago.  That child may have some genetic traits but that is all.

As to red hair, like blue eyes that is a recessive thing.  so if your grandparent was a red head you had a chance to have red hair and so does your child if your spouse also has the gene for red hair.

Oddly, in my family ; blue eyed mom with dark hair but red headed father.  Brown eyes dad with dark hair.

Four children and logically only one should have been blue eyed and none red hiared  but three were blue and two were red and two were blond.   So go figure, the odds don't always work.

Nighthawk

I googled your recommendation I Am A Strange Loop. It sounds quite interesting and certainly worth a read. Thanks.

Quotes:

Hofstadter’s 1979 best-seller Gödel, Escher, Bach contains photographs of some of the odd patterns you get when you turn a closed-circuit video camera on its own monitor. 

In that same book Hofstadter suggested a theory of consciousness based on the idea of a strange loop—the ability of any sufficiently complex hierarchical system (language, closed-circuit TV, certain musical forms) to “turn back” on itself, refer to itself, observe itself.  This new book picks up that theme and attempts to fill out the theory of “I” as a strange loop.  Considering the complexity of the underlying system—that is, the brain—says Hofstadter, the ability of the highest levels of that system to be aware of themselves is not very surprising, and that is all consciousness is:  “a hallucination hallucinated by a hallucination"

I Am a Strange Loop is by no means dryly abstract all through.  Far from it:  The book contains enough “human interest” material to get the author a spot on the Oprah Winfrey show.  Hofstadter writes movingly of the sudden death of his wife Carol at age 42, and of the effect this event had on his thinking about selfhood.  Had Carol’s consciousness entirely ceased to exist?  He argues that it had not, since, by the closeness of their understanding, Carol’s “I” was instantiated not only in Carol’s brain, but in Doug’s brain too, albeit in a partial, “low resolution” or “coarse-grained” form.  My self, my “I,” is not impenetrably fenced off from others.  There is seepage and replication.  No man is an “I”-land entire of itself.

Content aside, there are many pleasures in I Am a Strange Loop.  The author’s trademark use of clever word-play to make his points is amply on display.  For example, he discusses Alzheimer’s disease as the slow disappearance of an “I” from its original container, while those “low-resolution” copies of it yet glow in the minds of others.  This is, he says, analogous to what happens when the moon passes in front of the sun.  At the moment of maximum occlusion, the sun’s glowing corona remains plainly visible.  So Alzheimer’s is a sort of… soul-ar eclipse.

You may groan, but the analogy, and the pun, make the author’s point unforgettable.  Hofstadter lets his gift for word-play off the leash completely in a marvelous ten-page riff on “Twinwirld,” an imaginary place where 99 percent of all births are identical twins—“pairsons” or “dividuals,” with an appropriate set of invented pronouns:  “i” and “I,” “we” and “Twe,” and so on.

http://www.olimu.com/Journalism/2007/Texts/StrangeLoop.htm

Description

What do we mean when we say "I"? Can thought arise out of matter? Can a self, a soul, a consciousness, an "I" arise out of mere matter? If it cannot, then how can you or I be here? I Am a Strange Loop argues that the key to understanding selves and consciousness is the "strange loop"--a special kind of abstract feedback loop inhabiting our brains. Deep down, a human brain is a chaotic seething soup of particles, on a higher level it is a jungle of neurons, and on a yet higher level it is a network of abstractions that we call "symbols." The most central and complex symbol in your brain or mine is the one we both call "I." The "I" is the nexus in our brain where the levels feed back into each other and flip causality upside down, with symbols seeming to have free will and to have gained the paradoxical ability to push particles around, rather than the reverse. For each human being, this "I" seems to be the realest thing in the world. But how can such a mysterious abstraction be real--or is our "I" merely a convenient fiction? Does an "I" exert genuine power over the particles in our brain, or is it helplessly pushed around by the all-powerful laws of physics? These are the mysteries tackled in I Am a Strange Loop, Douglas R. Hofstadter's first book-length journey into philosophy since Godel, Escher, Bach. Compulsively readable and endlessly thought-provoking, this is the book Hofstadter's many readers have long been waiting for.

http://www.perseusbooksgroup.com/basic/book_detail.jsp?isbn=0465030785

Hey happybee,

Any answer you receive on the afterlife is not only purely subjective, but is based on nothing more than wishful thinking - not that it can't be true. The belief in the afterlife is much like the attached belief in God as an ultimate worshack (sp?) test. We see what our conscious or subconscious wants to see.

Unfortunately, this is not a Philosophy question. It may be considered "philosophical" in nature by some, but it is nowhere along the lines of academic or professional Philosophy - it is essentially and even necessarily theological. Contrary to popular opinion, the study of Philosophy does not work in unobservable data or employ itself wherever science cannot. I hope that the point of the question is to lead one to recognize exactly why this question is not one that philosophers are asking - or how ideas like the afterlife evolve.

However, the question of whether an afterlife is possible or not certainly falls within the confines of philosophical discussion. As several philosophers have shown, it is almost impossible for the traditional Christian idea of heaven to be possible due to complications with free will. Additionally, the the majority of the solutions to the problem of suffering/evil inadvertately dismantle any traditional idea of an afterlife without suffering.

I don't know whether there is reincarnation.  But, my question is, if we come back again will we know it? Will there be a connection with the person we once were?

If not, the question is meaningless to me. If I was reincarnated from a previous life, I can honestly say I have no memory of it.

Happy Bee

You seem to be strangely absent from all this discussion.

Pilgrim's Progress

In general you are not aware of who you were in a previous life. But some are - check out the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson. Your past lives also have a big impact on who you are today so the question isn't really meaningless.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

he did partially pin me on a technicality since i forgot to include the obvious, my husband's contribution ;)  i didn't say my son contained ALL my dna, but anywho. my bad.  i should have known better

my problem was the anthology part.  our lineage/genetics/dna can be traced pretty far back.  it isn't far fetched that we are all related somehow.  every little piece of our dna is derived from a common ancestor that can be traced back to some specific time and place.

ALL human beings can trace their mitochondrial dna back to a common ancestor living in east africa,  100-150,000 years ago.

Recent research into human dna indicates we all originated from a smaller gene pool than other primates.

j

(sheesh, after being away a while i should know better than straying to far from parenting or social *lol*)

I beg to differ.  While not strictly philosophical, it is in fact a question addressed in the sciences, hard and soft, and in greatest numbers by physicists working on quantum and chaos issues - philospohical by their very nature as most theoreys cannot be tested.

There are dozens of texts addressing this, one of the most "philisophic" or "theoretic" Amit Goswami's Physics of the Soul: The Quantum Book of Living, Dying, Reincarnation and Immortality.

Blessedtoes, if you are aware of Amit Goswami you will also know that he is retired and does not submit his works for peer review any longer and classifies himself as a theosophist. He now makes money through speaking engagements and movies that are pseudo-scientific and pseduo-philosophical (What the Bleep...). When it comes to theoriticians of quantam mechanics, Goswami doesn't exactly fall into the conservative spectrum of scientific speculation. When it comes to the issue of quantum mechanics, our understanding is similar to 16th century astronomy/astrology. The split at that time was not so defined as it is now. Quantum mechanics will eventually get there, but for now we have to sift through the "astrology" crud of quantum speculation.

However, if you read the rest of my comment you will see there is nothing else that you wrote that I would disagree with. The philosophical question would be whether the afterlife is possible or not possible - not whether it exists or not. I was not excluding the dialogue from philosophical discussion, but simply establishing for those not familiar that the academic study of Philosophy does have limitations - it isn't about getting high and asking why the sky is blue.

Hi---I joined this forum approximately 17:30 on the 03/11/2009 and I gave biblical text stating that when one dies that that is it until the resurrection.  How come the article cannot be found now?  I would like to know.

i wish i could help, but i'm not sure.  i tried to track your posting history and it isn't there.  it doesn't look as though it was ever posted.  after you posted it (save) do you remember seeing it on the screen?

Depending on what you choose to believe the question can be answered in many ways... I don't think it can be proven scientifically. 

Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation.

Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in one shot at life (for the vast majority of us).

I am a Christian - I believe that this life is just a precursor to the big show.  

I believe that we have this life, which is a time in which we get to choose whether or not to eat the apple or go our own way; a time of choosing God or refusing Him - in this process, at the end of time, each of us find ourselves either with Him or without Him and then we move on to the next life.  It seems to me that there are 2 lives - this one and the next.

In this life, when we choose God, we accept Him as our King, so we walk with Him and join Him in what He is doing.  As we seek Him we find ourselves living in connection with the purpose of the universe and the activity of our lives has eternal significance. 

(If we go our own way, eat the apple and live in disconnection with God, then our lives are mediocre and meaningless.)

As we walk with Him, He prepares us more and more for eternity.

Hi again to this forum and the discussion on reincarnation.  I will use the Word of God/Bible to answer.  Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 KJV...The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.  Job 14;12,14 KJV...So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, not be raised out of their sleep.  If a man die, shall he live again?  all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.  Jobe 14:21 KJV...His sons come to honor (at their loved ones grave), and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of of them.  Job 7:9,10 KJV...As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.  He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him anymore.

Genesis 2:7 KJV...And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

   +Here is the formula for a living soul....Body + Breath = Living Soul--- at death this formula reverses...Living Soul - Breath = Body.  So a living soul is only a soul if the body has breath in its nostrils.  Job 27:3 KJV... All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.  This spirit of God is that spark of live that only God can impart (it is not an embodied spirit or ghost like apprition as taught in Greek mythology).

Psalm 71:20 KJV...Thou, ....shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring my up again from the depth of the earth.  1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17, 18 KJV...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (those believing in him) shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to gether with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The long and the short of it all is when we die we go down to the grave and await the first resurrection at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Revelation 20:6 KJ V...Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.  Amen.  MJD

Yes, Brad, God is the ultimate Rorschach test. The cosmic inkblot is there, but up to us to interpret, and how we interpret IT determines our fate because there is no absolutely true interpretation. We actually create IT, or the analytical, objective interpretation of IT. Subjectively, however, we just experience IT as IT really is.

If, as I think, IT is in a state of synthesis, then the subjective and unconceptualized experience of IT would be truer than the analysis or conceptualization of IT.

The right hemisphere of our brain perceives reality directly, subjectively or intuitively. The left hemisphere interprets that subjective experience into objective thoughts and concepts.

Because our left brain predominates, we believe our left brain concepts to be the true, and neglect the subjective right brain experience. But, as I said, right brain experience may well be more true or more real than left brain conceptualization.

In meditation and other dissociative states, we shut up the inecssant chatter of the left brain and experience reality via the right brain. In the fully conscious state, most of us experience left brain reality only. We would do well to complement left brain logic with right brain intuition, but it is difficult if not impossible for most of us to get away from left brain thinking and conceptualization.

I think that sometime in the not too distant future there will be helmets with electrodes that stimulate the right brain and help us experience reality via the right hemisphere. Then we will experience reality not as we think it is but as it really is: holistic, infinite, divine. 

Namasté,

Arminius

When God created Adam , He breathed life into that lump of earth.Of the four elements from which we were made, water, air, fire only earth would keep that breath.

As souls in heaven we are shown the life we will lead. We choose our life, the earthly experience from which we will learn about God, Jesus and the prophets. It is not enough to simpily return to heaven, as on the final day even heaven will be destroyed. We must strive for full enlightenment, so that we can merge with God, so that we can return the breath that was kept safe in the earth. Until we can achieve that state, our souls will continue to return to learn the earthly lessons.

Hi, I was just reading some of these posts and what surprises me is that some people who call themselves Christians have no idea what the bible says.  For a Christian to even entertain the idea that there is such a thing as reincarnation is a person who has not read/studied the scriptures.  One posts says something in the line that scientifically reincarnation cannot be proven or disproved scientifically.  God says in his Word in 1 Timothy 6:20,21 KJV...O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositioons of science falsely so called:  Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

Romans 1:18,19,20,22,25 KJV...For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteouness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, which is blessed forever. 

God tells us in 2 Peter 1:20,21 KJV...Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 what counts as a life? 

if i'm reborn as a completely different person, and i'm not the same person - then is it really another life?

is it not a new life, a new birth instead of a rebirth? 

and how can we tell?

Hi Murtylemae, Yes, the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  A soul is only a soul if it has breath in its nostrils.  The formula to the above is Body + Breath = Living Soul  and at death it is the reverse ... Living Soul - Breath = Body.  The breath in a person is called the spirit of God (Job 27:3 KJV...All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.  Nowhere in the bible does it talk about souls being in heaven before birth or immediately after death (John 3:13 KJV...And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that cane down from heaven even the son of man which is in heven).  Only at the second coming of Christ when he raises the righteous from their graves and quickens them will they again be living souls (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17,18 KJV).  It is at this time that we are taken to heaven to be with the Lord (and this is only for 1000 years Revelation 20:4b).  After the 1000 years are over then we will return to earth with God and the New City Jerusalem where God will set up his kingdom (Revelation 21:10 KJV).  Also, nowhere in the bible does it say that heaven will be destroyed.  Sorry.  I say all of this, Murtylemae, with respect.  MJD.

Noooooooooooo way, man. Once is enough for me. Who knows, you might come back as a tape worm. When I die, I'll go to be with my Saviour, Jesus Christ. That's the only life I need.

*lol*

when did you add the v3.0 to your handle?