There was a time when I just wanted to toss the Bible - all the contradictions, the descriptions of an angry, jealous and violent Supreme Being - yikes.  But I've rediscovered it by finding  in it the voices of fellow human beings across the centuries engaged in the same search as I am - the search for the Divine, and what that means to my life.  I find consolation in knowing that the men who wrote the Bible were trying to  find the Spirit of God through the chaotic web of culture and history, just like me, and while some of them clearly created a God in their own image,  others seem to me to have found a Reality that inspired them to see things & live in a new way, &  their words ring true across the years.  I don't think that the Bible is the "word of God", but I do think that by connecting with these writers of so long ago,and entering into their stories, we can find  help for the spiritual journey - including wisdom and consolation, but also including  enough contradiction and challenge that we are not excused from doing the hard work of  discerning truth for ourselves - and that's a good thing, IMO.

Agnieszka - I turn to the bible for all those things you discuss - comfort, wisdom, guidance, cautionary tales ... sometimes just for a good story and a good laugh. How do I deal with what you and Diana both are speaking about in terms of the 'other stuff' - since for the record, to any Christian, no matter of what stripe, there is 'other stuff' in there you disagree with, and even literalists cherry pick to a certain degree (see The Year of Living Biblically) - I simply understand the Bible for what it is; a collection of writings, from various times, places and authors, detailing their understandings of and relationships with God, which some men one day decided comprised our Holy Book, including some unfortunate examples, while excluding other valuable examples. Sometimes you need to sift through a lot of silliness to get to the good stuff - and what the 'good stuff' is depends on who you are and where you sit I guess - but I still find it fascinating and important reading.

I love Shakespeare, T.S. Eliot, W.H. Auden, Rumi, Heinlein, Bradbury, Hesse, and other inspired writers as much as the Bible. The Bible happens to be our traditional Christian source of inspirational literature, and contains some of the history of  Judeo/Christian/Islamic religion and culture, but the sacred literature of other religions and cultures is as interesting and revealing as the Bible.

Sorry, Agnieszka, your question was "Do you read the Bible for consolation?"

Yes, I do, but Shakespeare, Hesse, Rumi, and others have been as much consolation to me as the Bible.

There are books in the Bible that I would go to for consolation. Some of the Psalms are wonderful in that department. However, like Arminius, it's not the only place I'd go. Mary Oliver, Horace (the Roman poet), and other spiritual literature all have works that I would go to as well.

There are other books of the Bible that I go to for wisdom or inspiration. There are others where I read for the story but don't really find much in them that speaks to me. It is, as I said in jae's thread on the Bible, written by humans for humans and is a collection rather than a single book. I approach The Bible in that spirit and thus find a diversity of ideas and thoughts from a diversity of minds, all related by the overall theme of our relationship to the Divine.

Mendalla

 I read The Bible for many reasons 

The Bible offers us so much it is hard to define it . For those who want to really understand and study this book there is no end as to what it can offer us in our daily lives .The Bible not only offers consolation it tells you how to live on this planet a very joyful , peaceful , healthy , prosperous life as opposed to a life of strife, fear , sickness ,and lack. The Bible offers a Blessed life which is the empowerment to succeed in all areas of your life ---it also warns of the curse which is the empowerment  to fail in all areas of your life .It offers solutions to all our troubles ----it gives guidance to get answered prayer . It teaches us what agape love is as opposed to human love .It tells us how to manifest things from the unseen realm to this physical realm .It tells us what takes place when we die . 

  The Bible is 66 books of seed that can be planted and manifested and it gives you instructions on what and how to plant to get a great harvest .

Blessings   

Hi Agnieszka,

Ummm.  All of the above and then some.

God is a person.  A person with feelings apparently.  Sometimes emotion gets intense.

Like a ripple.  I see more evidence of God's passing than I see God sitting on page 410.

I read Lamentations when I feel that God is not living up to my expectations.  Then I settle down for a bit and realize it could always be worse.

Maybe you need to unlearn some of that other stuff.  I mean Biblical scholarship isn't necessarily either.  How do you know that the sources you believe are any more reliable that the text you have received?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hey all! I have so much to say in response to your posts but alas I have to hang on to my thoughts because I am without a computer at the moment and typing on my iPhone really sucks! Just wanted to thank you all for your thoughts.

I do have one question which can't wait - Rev John, can you explain what you mean when you suggest I unlearn that other stuff? I'm referring to the violence, patriarchy, sexism, misogyny... The language and teachings in the Bible that have resulted in much harm to women in particular - how does one "unlearn" something that's there in plain sight

Agnieszka :-)

 Hi Agnieszka   

Your Quote    :I'm referring to the violence, patriarchy, sexism, misogyny... The language and teachings in the Bible that have resulted in much harm to women in particular - how does one "unlearn" something that's there in plain sight Agnieszka :-)

I would be interested in knowing where you are reading all these terrible things in the Bible can you enlighten me-- Please and thank you ---Is there a passage or scripture you can quote to show this,

Blessings

Hi unsafe, If you honestly don't know where the violence in the bible is, you're not reading it very closely! It's all over the Old Testament! Try this for an exercise: go to the Bible Gateway website (or any Bible search site) and type in "kill them all" in a key word search, and see what happens. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=kill%20them%20all&version1=3...

(there is plenty more but I think it's your responsibility to find it, as someone who loves the Bible you should know what's in it)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:12&version=NIV

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=raped&searchtype=all&version...

Hi Agnieszka,

Exactly.

Violence is there.  Why is it there?  Is it there to teach about how glorious violence is?

Patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny.  Those are things which we see and lable.  Are they the message that scripture is promoting or are they obstacles that the message has to move around.

Some people have problems seeing through screens.  For some reason they focus on the screen itself rather than look through it (which is what the screen was designed for).

I don't deny that the nasty stuff you describe doesn't occur.  I don't believe that they are the message that the scriptures are meant to lift up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Agnieszka - I looked up your first reference to 'Gateway' and read the passages which said 'kill them all'.  In many of the cases quoted there is no directive by God to do the killing.  People were at war.  They believed that they were God's chosen people and that God was on their side (sound familiar - many of the allied nations thought that way during WW 11, some nations think that way today).  The winners wrote the stories (I won't call them history).  And yes, in war sometimes it is expedient for the victors to kill everyone - even women and children.  I believe that the God I know through the Bible was weeping for the suffering and dead on both sides of the conflict.   Don't blame God for the interpretation people put on their stories.

That aside there are many troubling passages.  I won't do a search but try to remember some: 

Lot, who was supposedly a good man, offered his young virgin daughters to a mob bent on rape.  Lot was trying to protect the two alien (men) to whom he had offered hospitality and this is upheld as an honourable thing.

Saul,  God's chosen one to be king of Israel, was directed by God to slaughter the enemy - every man, woman, child or animal.  Saul choose to allow his army to take some of the women and children captive as slaves, and to seize the animals as bounty.  This, according to the report, angered God and prompted God to choose David to replace Saul.    I see this as an attempt to explain how David replaced Saul in God's favour. 

In Psalms the people rejoice over a past event, praising God for 'taking their little ones and bashing them against the rock'.  A song of victory, not necessarily an accurate interpretation of God's hand, or God's will, in doing this.  Not a factual account of the event as previously recorded in Exodus.

Yes, blood, and violence attributed to God.

I like the message of the prophet Hosea.  Hosea speaks of God's as an angry and disappointed leader when the people turn away to idols and false gods.  He imagines God rejecting them, casting them out, punishing them.  But then in an abrupt turn around, Hosea speaks for God:  "I will not execute my fierce anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath."    Later in chapter 14:  4  "I will heal their disloyalty; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them."   This seems to me to be more what God is like than the fierce, blood-thirsty, punishing God that is sometimes shown in the Bible.

Hi Agnieszka

   I see where your coming from but if you read the whole chapter of 34 you will see that Jacob's daughter Dinah was raped by Shechem  and the son's of Jacob in verse 8 says they were grieved , distressed , and very angry  for Shechem had done a vile thing to Israel in lying with Jacob;s daughter  which ought not to be done. So they took revenge on the family ---   

This is taken from a Bible study --- If we understand the story we can understand the violence.  That is why bible study is important.

Rev. Peggy Krong's Notes for Genesis 34

A. The rape of Dinah, Leah and Jacob's daughter.
B. "Agreement" to live in harmony; Shechem and his father, Hamor, agree to have all their men circumcised.
C. Simeon and Levi exact revenge.

Blessings

Hi Agnieszka.

Actually I have to say that I appreciate the fact that the Bible hasn't been "cleaned up" over the ages. And yes along with consolation, I sometimes read some passages with disgust BUT it's the same way I read the newspaper. I want the truth, even if I have to read between the lines sometimes and check other sources.

I do regard the Bible as historical in some instances and I respect the fact that history has  lessons for us all.

Also I think the Bible documents our not so glorious religious history at times and we need to reflect often and be vigilant.

Hi Agnieszka- I was going to say more about the word of God. But those ahead said , just about all I could say.  Revjohn---Seeler--Unsafe-- Waterfall-- I don't always understand God, I do understand, He is always right.It is up to me to find out why I am wrong.The Bible helps. God Bless --airclean33.

I just start reading a passage and take from it what speaks to me at that time.  Sometimes consolation, sometimes encouragement, sometimes correction, etc.  Sometimes it reaches out and kicks me in the butt.  Some Bibles have an index of various passages suitable to certain situations and circumstances.  The more I study, the more I realize I don't know and the more I want to discover.  The Bible - it's like the province of Ontario tourist commercials- Yours To Discover.

hi Rev John, I can't do formatting very well on my iPhone so this might not work very well... Does the Bible glorify violence? Thats a very good question. Sometimes I really wonder. So few of the books in the Hebrew bible lack in violence... It's a toss up tho violence is definitely part of reality... It's everywhere. Is that reason enough to turn to the bible for yet a bit more of the same? You talk of the message behind these stories. Yes, and I have done my share of trying to see the message in there somewhere... It's hard work, to be honest. And why bother? see, the trouble I have is that when I'm looking for consolation or wisdom I'm usually in a place where I lack those things. So, finding a whole lot of obstacles and an obscure message somewhere in there... Hardly consoling. hmmm... When I'm looking for a breath of fresh air, theoretically the screen shouldn't stand in the way of finding the refreshment I look for... And yet, somehow the experience just isn't the same. Sometimes the screen literally stinks! Yes, I can try to see past it. But it's just a crappy experience. My point isn't that the message is not there. It's just couched in so much 'stuff'... I'm angry that I have to look so hard to find anything in there that speaks to me.

Hi Seeler , (please be patient with my poor formatting). The Biblegateway passages are just a tiny bit as an example. The stories you quote are the ones i would have posted had I the time or my proper cmputer. Yes, the winners wrote their stories in the bible. And people projected their own ideas and I terpretations on G_d, putting words in G_d's mouth... Men at war are not the closest to G_d at any time in history... And no, I do not blame G_d for what silliness was recorded as Her Word. There are passages in there where G_d commends murder and taking virgins was sex slaves... But that's most likely just the writers' way to justify and make right the men's actions. The stories you mention suck and there are more like them... The culture treated women the same way they treat their cattle. I'm just questioning the value of this book to me and my life as a woman and a mother as a source of consolation or wisdom. And I'm mourning the fact that it has so little to offer me.

To me, it has always come down to having to read the Bible with care and discernment. There are, indeed, passages that are difficult to comprehend and swallow today though they make more sense taken in their context. However, I find that those become fewer and further between over time. I could never see throwing out the whole thing because there's such beauty and wisdom in some of the books (Ecclesiastes, Psalms, the Gospels, some of the prophets). But, because those nasty bits are part of the context for the story of man's relationship to God, I can't see dumping the bad bits and only keeping the good bits. We really do need the whole thing, but we also need the skills and wisdom to read and understand it both in its context and in ours.

Mendalla

I totally agree. I have never been consoled...I haven't felt the need or something...reading the Bible for consolation is strange to me.

I read it with pleasure...always managing to learn something.

Here I disagree. It tells us how to live and live more abundently.

And again and again Jesus seems to focus on one major reaching: The Kingdom of God is

among/within you. Jesus' awareness of this - and aware of  the difficulty of  teaching this "Let him who has ears..."

Morals and ethics taught are clues to the path of that awareness.

Just my opinion/conviction --

Someimes you get to read jewels in here!

Yes, I found many a precious stone in the Bible myself.

But there seem to be more rocks than jewels.

Hi Mendalla, can you explain what you mean by "those (nasty bits) become fewer and further between over time."? Do you mean that they are less noticable? How does that happen for you? Hmmm, I'm not sure if I will throw it all out... I did that in the earlier parts of my spiritual path... At this point, I want to find ways to read the whole Book in some meaningful way. I have to say, I find it ironic that you write "the context for the story of man's relationship to God"... That's part of the issue for me (and please hear me out before you lable me as an angry feminazi or something): the whole book is from the perspective of men, mostly about men, primarily in favour of men, and essentially it truly is the story of MAN's relationship with G_d. I should clarify that I am not suggesting that parts of the book be taken out. I'm asking how people deal with them. As you said, "we also need the skills and wisdom to read and understand it.". That is what I'm looking for. And I don't mean literary or historical analysis... How does one make sense of it spiritually?

Hi Happy Genius, you said "I have never been consoled...I haven't felt the need or something...reading the Bible for consolation is strange to me." I think it's worth addressing the fact that it depends on your tradition how you read Scripture. I guess, if you think some traditions are 'strange', than yeah, lots of things will be strange to you!!:-) You also said "I read it with pleasure...always managing to learn something." I'm curious, what do you find pleasurable when you read Numbers and Leviticus? And what do you learn? This is not a trick question. What pleasure or learning do you find in those nasty bits of Scripture? And how do you do that? You write, "morals and ethics taught are clues to the path of that awareness (that the kingdom of God is among us)". I'm curious how that works?

Hi Unsafe,
can I gently suggest that you start up a separate thread about the Afterlife?

Thanks, Agnieszka

Here's another gem "The Bible - it's like the province of Ontario tourist commercials- Yours To Discover" (thanks Southpaw) :-).

Hi Agnieska :  your quote to Unsafe

"can I gently suggest that you start up a separate thread about the Afterlife? "

Welcome back but please allow me to gently suggest that Unsafe's response to Happy Genius post was just fine. I'm sorry if you didn't like it .

I posted a thread titled "Does the God of the Old T. Suffer?" I don't know if the article I quoted on it may be of some help to you or not. I think the reference to "man" in the article refers to mankind and womankind meaning people or human beings in general.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/does-god-old-t-suffer

... Nice to see you, too, Stardust, but it makes no difference whether I liked Unsafe's response to HG or not - it's on a totally different topic thus the suggestion to start a new thread.
I'm perfectly aware of what the word "man" is supposed to mean. Regardless, the Bible was still written by men and for men (women were not taught to read), it's mostly about men, and its teachings (especially Hebrew Bible and parts of Timothy) benefit mainly men. I know this is upsetting, but there is just no way to sugarcoat this...

Hi -Unsafe Loved what you wrote.   Hi to you stardust. God bless you both  What happened to  Genius I thouht his first name was Happy.  God  Bless you Happy Genius I hope your day goes well.  airclean33

I'm not sure I have any more to contribute, then, because for me doing the literary and historical analysis is part of making sense of it spiritually. That's why I lean towards approaches like Borg's historical-metaphorical. The Bible isn't JUST a spiritual work even if that is it's main role, it has history in it, it has literature in it, it has laws and social policies of ancient nations in it. Until you understand the historical context of the writings and the literary reasons for them being written, you can't really separate the spiritual wheat from the chaff so to speak. At least, IMHO.

Mendalla

Agnieska: your quote

"Bible was still written by men and for men "

I agree 100%. Generally speaking in the world of  orthodox Judiasm today  the women aren't expected to know anything about the bible or to go to the synagogue. On Fri. nights the woman or mother can say a short prayer to bring in shabbat  I believe but a man must be present. I'm not Jewish. My grandson is Jewish  so I light candles at Hannakuh and read the prayers but it isn't really lawful or acceptable for me to do so. The Jews form groups of ten men to say certain prayers, no women allowed. Reform Judiasm is more modern.

Except for occasionally reading the Psalms I haven't read the bible since the 1970's or  1980's. I don't feel bad about it. I read what they write here on the WC and I look in the bible so I can participate in the conversations.

P.S. Jesus didn't succeed in changing the minds of the orthodox Jews....lol....

Stardust and agniszka Or all women- Don't you know it was by a women  that are lord came to earth. The first heart are Lord heard would have been Marys.It Was a women that toached God befor man.-

-------------Womens  head can be held high-----To God Be The Glory---------airclean33

airclean

I think we know why God sent Jesus as his only begotten son. It is because if he had sent a girl, an only begotten daughter, nobody would have listened to her.  This sounds crazy doesn't it? 

Lots of people believe Jesus isn't or wasn't God of course. Lots of people believe he was a prophet, a man, and not divine. People are correct when they say the bible doesn't make sense sometimes if you read it literally. In the Old T. God says : " A man cannot be God" and then God turns around and sends Jesus who tells us he is God?

I believe you are correct.:

My family were all agnostic/atheists (Not sure- there was no religious talk -ever- in our house...

It arrowsed my curiosity (which continues after 70 years) ---

Numbers? ""in The wilderess" (Hebrew)

An  inkling of anciient thought - an interesting (and inaccurate) view of the zeitgeist .

True also of Leviticus: ancient tries at a legal (holy) 'system'

Interesting, enjoyable....not my favorites, mind you...

[quote=Agnieszka}

And what do you learn? This is not a trick question. What pleasure or learning do you find in those nasty bits of Scripture? And how do you do that? You write, "morals and ethics taught are clues to the path of that awareness (that the kingdom of God is among us)". I'm curious how that works?[

[/quote]

I once knew a sound man, whose well known ability was summerized by him:  "You have to have ears!"

Jesus also said this

Many are curious as to "how that works"...It's kinda like describing the feeling of love...how do you describe experience?

(Or that sound man: who in a rehersal of a recording band : "Bar sixteen, trumpet: That's a B flat !) How does one learn THAT?)

Hi Agnieszka.

So few newscasts lack violence.  Is it time to hide in the basement?

Since, as you put it, violence is everywhere there would be no need to turn to the Bible for it.  So perhaps individuals who do turn to the Bible for violence have spectacularly missed the point.  Surely the account of the crucifixion is not about the glorification of violence?  

It is as easy as looking through a screen.

That isn't surprising.  We hardly go looking for that which we have in abundance.

So it isn't easy.  Is it supposed to be?

Fair enough.  Who has put the screen there?  Are you reading ancient text expecting it to support modern sensibilities?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Rev. John

Can you possibly tell me what the pastors in general or yourself  may think about the violence?  If its taken literally would you say its because we're speaking about 5000 years ago about tribes who fought each other? That's just how it was back then? Or would you be more inclined to believe it was just that  the people who wrote about it imagined God was in  it or a partaker in the violence?

I used to watch the evangelists sometimes and I did go to church a bit now and again. If the evangelists addressed it they saw it as a good thing meaning God was winning. Strange I never thought about the abject horror of it myself until I began to read here on the WC.

I know its a hard question to tackle and you can't answer for others. Taken literally it seems I read that God Jehovah  was carving out a people for himself  and the violence was a necessary evil if God was to be successful.  There was no other way. We can't imagine what life was like way back in those primitive times.

Hello Rev John,
I don't know if meant for this to be the case, but I'm finding your tone in your reply kinda snarky. I wrote the questions and doubts I have - that is not an invitation for sarcasm or attempts to show just how silly I am, is it? No, I don't "hide in the basement" because there is violence in every news cast; I don't own a television instead. Does that make me silly? Jesus' crucifixion isn't necessarily a glorification of violence... Unless you are speaking with an Evangelical Christian or watching Mel Gibson's passion... But that is not the general violence in the bible I'm referring to and I suspect you know that. Perhaps the violence in the bible IS all reasonable (tho I wouldn't consider the chopping up of a human body and sending it out to people reasonable, for an example)... And I certainly do not turn to the bible FOR the violence (am really not sure how you came to that conclusion)... My point - how did you miss it really - was that WHEN I turn to the bible I find myself turned off... Why does that put you on the defensive? I don't get your use of the screen metaphor at this point - who put the screen there? The writers did. And as I said why bother staring at a screen when I can take it out and look out into the open? And am I reading any ancient text expecting it to support modern sensibilities? Finally, an interesting question. I'm going to assume it isn't just another witticism meant to whack me over the head... I'm pretty clear on the fact that it is an ancient text and therefore it does NOT speak to modern issues. But then I have to ask, what DOES it speak to? What role is it meant to play in one's spiritual path in this modern day existence? What is its point and purpose in spirituality?

Hi stardust,

Given a choice between the two I would prefer to speak for myself.

Violence is part and parcel of what it means to be human.  Violence can be offensive or defensive.  Violence is.

There is a trajectory to violence in the scriptures and if you are able to listen to the commentary about violence rather than focus on the violence itself you learn somethings.

For example, an early comment about violence is "An eye for an eye."  This is not an injunction to maim someone who maims you.  This is God setting a limit to violence.  Why set a limit?  Imagine life without one?  Jesus later takes this limit as a starting point and goes on to set an even stricter limit on the use of violence, "Do not resist . . ."

Essentially, yes.

Why does it have to be either/or?  When the male children of the Hebrews are threatened by Pharoah's edict God sits on his hands.  A second similar wave of terror is promised and God sends the angel of death to take the first-born of Egypt.

What would you do to save your children?

God has to play nice though does God?

Well, I cannot speak for what was going through the mind of those evangelists.  I suspect that they may view scripture through a triumphalist lense.  If that is so God always wins.  It would tend to glorify God's action no matter how violent it was as if God actually enjoyed acting in a violent manner.

Well, that works for a start.  There is more to it than that though.  The promise to Abraham is that he would be a blessing to the nations.  In order for those nations to gain this blessing the children of Abraham via Israel, need to be preserved.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Agnieszka,

That was not my intent.

What if it did?

There are at least two responses to violence.  One is to ignore it the other is to accept it.  Violence happens, whether we are looking or not.

I'm an Evangelical Christian.  The crucifixion does not glorify violence.  It defeats it.  How?  The point of crucifixion is to kill.  Resurrection means crucifixion simply doesn't accomplish that goal permanently.

Mel uses violence not to glorify violence.  Mel uses violence to glorify Christ.  He uses violence to show Christ's strength.  It is not about the violence.  It is about power.  Others can dish it out.  Only Christ can take it.

The story exists.  It does not exist as example of what to do.  It shows the futility of violence and the human need for vengeance.

I'm pretty confident I didn't say that you did.

Because it is the violence that you see.  You don't like it.  Cannot tolerate it.  You loathe it.  You detest it.  You abhor it.  No wonder it looms so large for you.  I love the wilderness.  I have a strong allergy to poison ivy.  In the midst of a forest I see those little leaves.  Not because they are pretty but because what they do to me is decidedly not.  

I'm not defensive/

No.  They didn't.  They record events they don't tell either or us what is to be the primary focus.

Respectfully, it doesn't look like you are.  You appear to focus more intently on the violence which you do not like and allow your gaze to be taken from other things which are more important.

Scripture certainly does speak to modern issues.  How does it speak to violence, is there a trajectory?  What does it start with?  Where does it end?  What is the goal?

The Bible allows one insight into the mind of God.

Grace and peace to you.

John

O.K. Rev. John

Thanks for your response.

Hi Rev John,

Every time a question is answered with another question, it seems a bit sharp, wouldn't you say?

I still would prefer that you not mock it or tell me that I'm hiding in the basement because I choose not to watch violence as entertainment.  You're welcome to your opinion, and even more welcome to keeping it private.

Of course it does.  I wasn't born yesterday, if you don't mind my saying.  The point is that just because it happens whether I'm looking or not does not mean I ought to look at it.

Jesus' crucifixion does kill him.  But God resurrects him three days later.  God has yet to physically resurrect anyone else.  Which means that all the people before and after Jesus that were brutally tortured and murdered continue to die.  Which means that the crucifixion has only defeated violence for one person, that even that is based on faith alone, faith that not everyone shares with you, Rev John.  

Jesus suffers, is humiliated, mocked, abused and tortured.  Like many before and after him.  Mel's depiction dwells on Jesus' suffering because according to Mel (and many others) Jesus' is special.  Jesus' suffering is special.  But does Jesus show some extraordinary strength against the abuse?  No, he bleeds, falls down, and eventually dies just like you and I would, just like many others have and continue to.  So, what do you mean, "only Christ can take it"?  What about the 10 year old girls being gang raped and raped with weapons, set of fire, dismembered, and so on.  They can't take it like Jesus can?  Whatever.  Mel Gibson's Passion is nothing but a glorification of Jesus' suffering... like it's never happened before and never since.  That's just plain BS.

So, that is your reading on that story, yes?  It shows the futility of violence and human need for vengeance.  Okay.  I guess to me is sounds like an ancient version of the newscast which I already know to stay away from.  How many times does one have to be reminded of that?  Those are my questions.  You don't have to answer any of them.

I also see sexism and misogyny, just so you know.

But I think you are saying is that I can't see the forest for the trees, yes?  Maybe it's because when I'm walking through the forest that is all I CAN see?

You love the wilderness.  Do you love it so much that even if it is completely infested with poison ivy you will still go in for a stroll? 

First off, I hope you are not telling me that the writers wrote down events objectively and without interpretation or injection of agendas, propaganda, etc..  When does that ever happen?

Second off, the writers tell their stories and we interpret, that's no secret, and you seem to argue that there is a right way to interpret.  So, who is putting in yet another screen?

If I were able to change the screen of my own interpretation without any troubles, I wouldn't be posting a thread about how to read the Bible in times of challenge.  So, you telling me that the fact that I see all that violence, sexism and misogyny in the bible is my own doing?  Not helpful.

If the screen is interpretation, my own personal interpretation which at the moment is overwhelmed by all that nasty crap that's in the bible, then removing it is not so simple.  I don't know how not to interpret.  

If I try not to interpret, the whole damn thing means nothing anymore.  I am not focusing on the violence for leisure or entertainment.  It's everyone I look.  Whether that's my fault or not, you don't need to point it out.  It's a fact at the moment.  I posted this thread because I'm looking for ways around that, to hear how other people do it.  I am not sure what the other messages are.  That's why I'm here, asking. My gaze is taken from other things which are more important by the brutality, abuse, rape, plunder, rage, humiliation, violence that those other things are surrounded by.  Is it any wonder I simply want out of there entirely?

At this moment in my spiritual/religious life, the Bible allows an insight into the minds of the people who wrote it, that is all.  The Mind of G_d is beyond their comprehension though they might have had a glimpse or two and tried, awkwardly and pitifully, to present it.  But mostly they have failed in that. 

Cheers,

Agnieszka

Hi Mendalla,

My trouble is that doing historical and literal analysis really removed any spiritual meaning from the book.  It became little more than an intellectual exercise.  

How do you find spiritual sustenance in those practices?

Agnieszka

Ah... Hesse...(If I were Waterbouy...I'd mention one of my all time favorites:

"The Glass Bede Game"

(Ducking and running...)

Hi Agnieszka   Your Quote  :   Hi Unsafe, can I gently suggest that you start up a separate thread about the Afterlife?

Your title is   : Do you read the bible for consolation?  I think what I wrote fits in with your title just fine as knowing where I will spend eternity is very consoling to me and the Bible tells me how to get to a great resting place. If you don't want people to comment on the entire Bible then you should have specified to only comment on the violence and woman bashing in the Old Testament as it seems that's all you want to focus on.

  I must inform you though that there were some highly intelligent women mentioned in the Old Testament.     Here's one.

DEBORAH – Israel’s Holy Lady
Judges 4, 5

  1. Deborah is one of the heroic women of history. She was one of the most talented women of the Bible – a wife, mother, prophetess, judge, poetess, singer, and political leader. Her life is a wonderful illustration of the power that womanhood has to influence society for good. The great influence that Deborah possessed is evident in the fact that all Israel came to her for counsel and judgment.

 2. The life of Deborah is recorded in Judges 4-5. Chapter 4 contains the prose narrative and chapter 5 contains the story in poetry. From these accounts we discover the following facts about Deborah’s life:

a. She was married (4:4). Lappidoth was her husband. Here is an interesting point to ponder.  We would never know of Lappidoth if not for his wife! This is the case today. Many men are honored and respected only because their wives are holy.

b. She possessed talents (4:4,5).

c. She had a great faith (4:4,6,14; 5:13).

d. She is the only woman Judge (4:4). Deborah is the only woman who served God as an official of the State government. Other women served as Queen but they had usurped the role.

e. She was well respected (4:5). When she asked Barak, a general from Naphtali, to come to her (4:6,14), he did not hesitate.

f. She confronted wrongs (4:5; 5:14b-17, 23).

g. She took action to help others (4:9).

h. She was a prophetess. Only two other women in the Old Testament share this honored designation (Miriam, Ex 15:20; Huldah, 2 Ki 22:14-20).

  Blessings and Have A Great Day !

Hi Agnieszka, 

To respond to your OP, I would say that I read the bible for all of the reasons you have mentioned - - consolation, wisdom, guidance, and seeking God's presence.  I also attempt to do some bible reading as a spiritual discipline, but I have yet to establish a regular routine for this.

I understand what you are saying about the violence that is found in some of the passages.  In a study group one time, my minister asked us to consider which parts of the Bible we found difficult to read.  It was an excellent question which produced some fascinating discussion. 

My simple answer is that when I am looking for consolation in the Bible, I go to the books (Psalms etc.) where I know I will find it.  Funny as this may sound, I also own a copy of Voices United, and I often turn to the words of hymns which I like a lot.

I don[t consider the bible to be the "word of God", but it means a great deal to me all the same.  I see it as the heart of the Christian tradition.  The more deeply I engage with it, the more interesting and helpful it becomes. 

Great discussion.  Thanks for starting it . . . P3

Agnieska

If I recall correctly yourself and Rev. John went round many many times on a thread when you were posting before you left?  I seem to remember reading it all.....?

Rev. John's intentions aren't to offend anyone although he's often accused of doing so. He calls it like he sees it. Personally in my own exchange of ideas with him he has often provided me with  new insight and I appreciate that. Example : He just wrote me about  God's promises to  Abraham  needing to be fulfilled  (re some of the violence maybe)  and I had never considered that.

P.S. Some links about women in the bible.  Maybe unsafe posted them already.