First of all we better give Bertrand Russel the credit for the "unyielding despair" quote.

The renowned atheist? Will have to read for context. It's from "A Free Man's Worship".

http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/br-fmw.html

Mendalla

Hi Mendalla,

If it did one wouldn't expect to find hope anywhere else than in Christians.  Since such is not the case I would have to answer no, Christianity does not have a lock on hope.

I do think, however; that Christianity has a lock on things that Christians hope for.  I would even be willing to say that I think Jews have a lock on things that Jews hope for and athiests and agnostics have a lock on the things that atheists and agnostics hope for.

This, I think, is where the "all paths" sentiments start to break down and differences become more and more noticeable.

For example.  Resurrection.  Christians, I believe have a lock on this hope.  I believe this because resurrection is fundamentally necessary for Christ to be risen.  We will argue about whether or not it was a bodily resurrection or a spiritual resurrection and the like.  There is no denying that for most Christians resurrection beats reincarnation or annhiliation or even nothingness.

That means that for many Christians, no matter how liberal they may be, resurrection is trump.

Making the argument that Christianity is better (or is fundamentally more hopeful) because it alone stresses resurrection above all other faith traditions is theologically flawed.

Primarily because resurrection is not limited only to the believers of a particular faith tradition.  Are only Christians raised to new life?  Some will argue yes.  And yet, resurrection is a gift of grace and as far as the scriptures are concerned God may give grace to whomever God pleases.  God is not limited by us just because we think God should be limited in how God deals with others.

As to whether or not "for me" is meant to be understood I cannot answer.

I know that I personally tend to insert it into what others are saying particularly when what others are saying gets so narrow as to effectively exclude.

As a Christian I hope in the reality of resurrection and because I believe it to be such an amazing gift of grace I hope that many others will experience such grace from God.  I don't believe God's grace is limited to what myself or others might believe.

Grace and peace to you.

John

waterfall,

Only one faith has resurrection, really?

Resurrection of the dead is a belief common to Abrahamic religions and is found is Christian, Islamic, Jewish and Zorastrian eschatologies.

I mean I thought Elijah and Elisha and Ezekiel's dry bones were all in the OT. They are resurrections in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Resurrection can also be a cycle of life, death, rebirth...

There are other faiths that have that rebirth, new life, meaning reincarnation.

Also, many faiths have a resurrected deity. The Aztecs to the Canaanites, Egyptians to Greeks, Sumerian to Hindu.....

 Hi Mendalla

There is no hope without faith ----Faith is the substance of our hope ----Bible faith only comes from hearing the word of God which is The Bible ---So Born Again people have great hope of --eternal life ----of living a happy --healthy --prosperous --peaceful life here on this planet ---Live life to the full till it overflows is the hope and our faith by believing and having confidence and trust in God's word which says that we will have these things brings it into manifestation . 

 Peace  

As I wrote seconds ago on the other thread:

Do you need comforting stories to have hope, or do you need perseverence, effort, and the knowledge that sometimes, you can beat the odds?  I'd argue the latter.

Well first we'd have to agree what the definition of resurrection is. Is it someone taken up to heaven without dying? A God that dies and becomes another shape, animal, planet? Is resurrection cyclical with every season, such as those based on the cycles of vegetation? So in reality are we talking reincarnation, transmigration, etc..... your examples?

I'll go this far with you, unsafe. Faith can, and does, bring hope.

Does it have to be Christian faith? Nope.

A alreadys stated, plenty of other faiths offer hope in some way.

Does it have to be theistic or religious? Nope.

Buddhism is non-theistic in many of its forms and still offers hope.

Humanists have faith in the goodness of humanity (how they manage that sometimes is almost as amazing as faith in an invisible God) and the ability of humans to improve themselves.

Some have faith that the universe is bigger and more powerful than us and will go on no matter how badly we may f&&k up. That we can make ourselves and our lives better if we understand it and with it instead of fighting against it. Kind of religious, really, but without the God. Pantheism of a sort.

Some have faith in ideals (or even Ideals, capital "I", if they happen to be Platonists).

Some have faith in themselves, though that's often a misplaced faith .

Some simply have faith that it will come out in the wash. That's not a particular hopeful faith, though, I'd suggest.

And so on. Just a few examples.

And there are those who profess no particular faith who nonetheless seem to live joyful, hopeful lives.

Mendalla

Even if you leave aside reincarnation, there are myths in many cultures of people and gods dying and being resurrected. Osiris in Egyptian myth, Dionysios in Greek. The story of Orpheus was interpreted as a resurrection myth by the Orphics long before Jesus' birth.

And, to be clear, Jesus resurrection as celebrated by Christianity fits the seasonal pattern. Rebirth as part of the new life of Spring.

Mendalla

I know these "myth" similarities to Christ have been popular lately (and I've read most of the books about it) but the reality is there are really few similarities if you really look into it.For example,Osiris was not resurrected, he was changed to another form to live in the underworld in a trance.

None of these "gods" die by choice or self sacrifice.

Christs resurrection has Jewish origins not greek. One God, blood atonement, sacrifice, etc....were foreign to the Greeks.

Assuming that's true, it would be to their credit.

And don't forget Mithras who, hundreds of years before Christ was.... born of a virgin, in a stable, visited by three wise men, was killed as a sacrifice to wash our sins away with his blood, and rose again after three days and was born up into heaven.

That is, of course, entirely incorrect.

Orpheus certainly chose to enter the Underworld to save Eurydice. And Witch has already talked about Mithras. And let's not forget that Jesus didn't choose to die and be reborn, either. He was chosen.

I don't buy the "Christianity is really just a pagan resurrection cult" thing, either, waterfall. However, it's undeniable that resurrection myths and atonement sacrifices did not begin with Christianity. It's a deep and powerful current in human mythology. The fact that Christianity took over pagan festivals (e.g. Sol Invictus becoming Christmas) and that the festival of the resurrection bears the name of a pagan goddess isn't just coincidence. Early Christians saw the parallels, saw how their myth mirrored other myths and used that to help sell their faith.

Mendalla

Mithraism in it's early stages was a military cult. Most say Mithraism didn't have a resurrection until after Christ's resurrection. The earliest historical inscriptions are 2nd Century AD, but the majority are dated after 140 AD, which is where they now included a resurrection. Mithraism was more than likely influenced by Christianity.

Whatever.

Resurrection isn't the point of this thread. Hope is.

Can hope exist without a resurrection myth?

Sure. Just ask the millions of Muslims, some of them converts from Christianity, who believe that living in keeping with the teachings that Muhammad put down in the Qu'ran will make a better world and get them into paradise when they leave it. There is no resurrection myth in Islam. Their hope is in God granting paradise to His believers.

Judaism likewise. Following God as revealed in the Law and Prophets is their game. Their hope is in God blessing and sending a Messiah to his chosen people.

Buddhism likewise. Following the Eightfold path to release themselves from grasping and therefore suffering. Their hope is in following the way shown by the Buddha (and sometimes various boddhistvas).

And so on.

In fact, among modern, active religious traditions, Christianity is about the only one that maintains a resurrection myth as central to its beliefs and its source of hope though forms of resurrection myths lurk in some other traditions. Mithraism, Orphism, etc. are all part of history.

Mendalla

Explanation???

Hi Witch    Your Quote on the wise men ------And don't forget Mithras who, hundreds of years before Christ was.... born of a virgin, in a stable, visited by three wise men,

Sorry correction the Bible doesn't specify how many wise men came but men is plural so we know it was more than one -----Just wanted to clarify ---who came up with the number I don't know -----

Yes that is certainly the claims made by Christian "anthropologists" in order to avoid dealing with a religion which resembles but predates Christianity.

Of course even if we accept your premised timeline, that still predates Christianity's first known inscriptions, and majority of literature, so your point is moot.

However, the earliest known inscriptions and references to Mithraic beliefs are from the time of ancient Persia. Just as the Greek title of "Christ" (מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah) wasn't reserved in Jewish tradition to one person, or to Jesus at all, and wasn't reserved in Christian tradition to Jesus alone until well after the postolic era, So Mithras was generally know prior to the first century BCE by many other names, which are just as valid, but strangely ignored by Christian "Anthropologists".

Even so, references to Mithras as a resurrected being though which all people must go in order to obtain heaven is given in  much older texts, such as the Avestan Yashts. Yasht 10, which specifically refers to Mithras as the "bridge to heaven which all must cross" is dated between 625 and 510 BCE, and may be nuch older.

So unless you can come up with references to Christ older than 625 BCE, your premise that Mithras was created to resemble Christ is rather flawed.

The number three probably was carried over in oral tradition from Mithras, but was left out when copied into Christian mythology. The oral tradition probably preserved it.

Unsafe, IMO they probably related the three gifts as three wisemen that delivered them.(pure speculation)

Just as Christianity has thousands of different interpretations, but a few main ones, for most of it's muythology, so do other religions. What Christian "Anthropologists" tend to do is search through all those interpretations in order to cherry pick one that fites their premise, in order to present it to people like you, so that you can think your mythology is unique.

So yes, if we we take Osiris as an example, you can certainly find an interpretation that speaks as you have suggested, but the main ones held most popularly, speak of Osiris being raised from the dead to grant all those who would chioose union with him, life eternal (The Oxford Guide: Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology, Edited by Donald B. Redford, p302-307, Berkley, 2003, ISBN 0-425-19096-X)

So yes, your premise that "the reality is there are really few similarities if you really look into it.For example,Osiris was not resurrected, he was changed to another form to live in the underworld in a trance. None of these "gods" die by choice or self sacrifice.", is entirely incorrect.

Now I could go into much greater detail, and include sholalry references and ancient texts from real anthropologists, and also address your flawed premise that "blood atonement, sacrifice, etc....were foreign to the Greeks" as well, but perhaps you'd take some responsibility to do some study yourself, using sources that don't have a stake in the outcome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries#Modern_debate_about_origins

Someone can have hope and it be about a deity, an afterlife.....or getting a job or getting lucky.

Hope is the feeling that what is wanted can be had. Note, that word wanted....So the hope of an afterlife, an old man ruling the sky, streets of gold,  harp playing cherubs .... is only a hope for those who want or desire that.

Reunion with deceased loved ones is a hope for some, it can be a nightmare for others.

Person A can hope for a long life and person B not want to live long. A has hope in that, B does not. B has hope for a short life, even though A does not. Wow! What a concept, people can actually hope for different things?

You can hope without a deity or a faith practice. Imagine that?

Do note that many of the alternate theories still place Mithraism as pre-Christian and nowhere does it suggest that Mithraism was influenced by Christianity or vice versa. The one commentator who even mentions the kinship between them suggests a common thread rather than influence one way or the other. Which is, by and large, where I'm coming from.

Mendalla

That is certainly a reasonable premise for why there is traditionally held to be three wise men.

The names usually attributed to them originally came from a Greek Manuscript, thanslated into Latin as the Excerpta Latina Barbari. Melchior was supposedly a Persion king/scholar, Caspar an Indian king/scholar, and Balthazar an Arabian king/scholar.

I personally find it interesting that of the four faith traditions normally considered to have contributed to Christianity by disinterested scholars, the thre non Judeaic ones are represented by the wise men.

While Wikipedia is certainly a good starting point if you're planning on studying ancient religions, I would avoid using it as a final reference.

Dig deeper

Yes Witch I realize that Wikipedia is questionable, but it was a fast reference that wasn't Christian, LOL!

Anyhoo, to somewhat get back on topic, but I do believe it is important to establish Christs resurrection in order to establish the hope that is taught within Christianity.

I do believe that God's grace is offered to everyone.

When I think of Jesus telling us that he will give the sign of Jonas to the unbelievers, I tend to think that it was because in his final days he had to offer a sign that could not be replicated. There were many during his time that were magicians that could replicate or copy most if not all of his miracles, but to come back from the dead was something that only God could do. IMO. He left witnesses and though time has passed and we tend to doubt in an age that has many of it's own marvels to claim, the story still remains with us. Sometimes I think that our faith has to be in the fact that Christianity survived for the purpose of this witnessing. Even today, I have not heard of any claims that anyone has attempted to bring someone back from the dead.

I believe Jesus wanted us to know that we can have eternal life and he knew the way and I think his bodily resurrection signifies it's not just a change in our personality. He knew/knows something we don't and he could only show us by example. His teachings, his life all pointed to "the way" to change our heart to be with him. The hope is eternal life and the way to get there is to love God and love one another.

Leaving aside the mythologist reading of history ( which by the way it another verson of an eternal return, which has been called into question by evolution) the question is about hope. 

Hope is radically different from optimism which is our projection.  It is an attitude of hanging in even when the evidence seems to suggest there is no way things are going to turn around.  Optimism suggests if only work harder we will solve the problem and if we don't we are unworthy or lack the power to change reality.

Hope is the strenght to hang in to face the reality which seems to suggest that the way things are will continue.  Or to not to be caught in nihilism which is often the end product of optimism.  It is not self generated or an attitude of the engine that could.

However, hope is a universal idea, not limited to one religion or lack of religion.  Thus, hope is found in many paths.  Having said that not all hope is the same: buddhism is radically different from the judeo christian tradition, which is not to say it is less but to ask does the difference make a difference.  The judeochristian tradiition is more materialistic  because it does not reject this world as the problem that is to be transencnded - or is unreal and that means we are attached to that which is perishing and thus not real.  Sod hope does function in degrees.

This leads to  another question that if this is true, do some paths strengthen hope.  I suggest that a theistic one does because it does posit as provisional that nihilism is false, that there is a reality that works within reality to lure to where reality might become, and is an active force to acheive that, one of the actors in the making of the future.  Now that does not work for all but for some it is the added benefit to keep on working for the common good.  It is now the question of what is the added quality that will help acheive the common good, that grounds hope? So if the theistic answer does give us strength are there other options that do the same thing, give empowerment?  This is the question.

I was at a gathering and a biolgical fundamentalist said it was hopeless because evolution will win out and the world will end with a whimper.  He has given up on trying to change reality.  So this is the question is hope needed to overcome discouragement that leads to inaction?

Having said all of this I think there is much agreement with John and Mendella here.

Ahhh....so everyone has hope, it's just that religious people have a better kind of hope!

And your anecdote to support this view comes from a depressed "biological fundamentalist" (is that an occupation?) who thinks it will all end.

It will, of course, billions of years from now when the Earth is engulfed by the sun, but let's not procrastinate.  Those of us without God should start getting depressed now.

Gimme a break, Pan.

Hope for peace, equaility among peoples, living wages, adequate medical care, access to clean water and education... all of that can be possible without one shred of theist feeling. Often, meaningful hope for it to be possibel in this lifetime, to happen in the here and now and not some far off day by some other peoples.... is found by those who reject the supernatural God who will make it all better and often after we die.

I am just saying, some of the most "christian" folks I know are atheists  LOL

Satan gives us false hope ---so all people have some kind of hope ----

Flase Hope ---Is  Contaminated Faith

Satan's hope was just in the U S of  A  a while back ---many people relied on low bank loans to buy homes and then went bust ---bankrupt ---False hope relying on Banks and government to come through with all their promises ---they make to hook people -----This worlds economic system is full of false hope ---it is bait and switch .This hope get the banks and government rich while humans have their lives taken out from under them .

God's hope on the other hand is reliable and stable and never fails ----it doesn't rely on what is happening in this seen realm ---for everything in this visible world was created by it's invisible parent --the unseen realm . This hope gives God's Children  blessings --peace --prosperity --health and joy and eternal life  .

God's Hope relies on Faith -----Satan's Hope relies on Contaminated Faith

I prefer God's hope myself ----Peace

Satan - Opposer of God and inventor of the sub-prime mortgage.

I suppose a valid question is where do I find hope given that I kicked off this whole discussion. And, to be honest, I'm not 100% sure what that source always is. I'd say faith is a big part of it, but it's not necessarily faith in "God" in any tradtional sense.

I have hope. That much I'm sure of. Faith, too, though not necessarily in God.

I have hope that we can use our knowledge and human abilities to make the world better instead of worse, partly because I know we have in some ways (medical advances for instance) and partly because there are just too many positive stories out there that balance off the negative ones for me to believe that we, as a species, are hopeless. Just knowing the people on this board and how we manage to enjoy each other's company in spite of our differences gives me hope. And, yes, Pan that's hope, not just optimism (I do understand the difference that you are emphasizing).

I have hope that even if we fail, some kind of life will go on, whether here on Earth or elsewhere. The Cretaceous catastrophe, if nothing else, shows that. And with the knowledge that there are likely billions of worlds in the universe, the mathematical probability of life somewhere else achieving what we have and perhaps more has gone up by leaps and bounds.

I've needed hope a few times my life, some too deeply personal to relate here, and I've always found it. Occasionally, it's been found through prayer and faith in  a "God" (in the sense of something bigger than myself), but not necessarily God in a Christian sense. However, sometimes it's also been faith in my inner strength and the support of my family and community (and, where required, in my medical supports).

There's more but I'll stop there.

So, hope and faith are there. However, my hope does not arise from a faith in God in a traditional Christian sense. Indeed, it doesn't necessarily arise from the same thing on each occasion.

Mendalla

Of course that begs the question of who is relying on Satan's hope and who is relying on God's?

I certainly am not relying on Satan, that would be rediculous. Satan belongs to Christians. He's not my demi-god of evil.

I do rely on God's hope, as does every other person of faith in the entire world, of any religion, pretty much universally. Just ask them, they'll tell you.

Of course many Christians like unsafe will say that all those other people are wrong... but without any evidence of that it's just opinion based on what unsafe et al have chosen to believe.

Hope is an aspect of resilience.

It murmurs quietly in our minds in times of suffering, "this too shall pass".

The most important thing to be said about hope is that we have it.

Where one derives it - from faith, from our genetic make-up, etc is of little consequence.

I believe, despite some claims to the contrary, that nobody alive today can know there is an afterlife.

How can they?  They're alive -and one has to die before knowledge of an afterlife is possible.

(Note - believing is a belief, it's not knowledge.)

I've experienced times of suffering to such an extent that I'm committed to learning how best to live the remainder my life - not to avoid suffering, for that can't be done, - but how best to live with peace, contentment, and love.

(I like to think that love is my default setting.)

This has led me on a journey through religion, psychology and philosophy -as I think all three have much to say about a life well lived.

I urge others to do the same - there is much to be gained from opening oneself to many diciplines -as opposed to having fear lock us into one dicipline -be it religion, atheism, etc.

I think it's working. Suffering is still a part of life, but there is more contentment than before my journey began............

I'll end where I started -never give up on hope, it's a necessary ingredient of resilience.

Hi Witch   ---Your Quote ---I certainly am not relying on Satan, that would be rediculous. Satan belongs to Christians. He's not my demi-god of evil

You may think you rely on another but if you are not Born Again ---you definately rely on the prince of this world -Satan--according to scripture .Wecan call Satan whateve rwe want -----I didn't write the scripture ----

The Bible says this not me --I just believe what the scriptures says---Same Scripture 2 different Bibles.

Ephesians 2:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

Thank you Mendalla and PilgrimsProgress, that is personal. It offers me more than facts and figures and textbook excerpts..

For me,  it offers experiential learning, it calls me to feel and conceptualize, to participate by emotional involvement... and more than anything to reflect....there is no "teacher" and experiential learning has no lecturing.

Thank you.

Actually, I think there could be something to that. I wouldn't disagree there. ;)

Hi Unsafe--You wrote--

God's hope on the other hand is reliable and stable and never fails ----it doesn't rely on what is happening in this seen realm ---for everything in this visible world was created by it's invisible parent --the unseen realm . This hope gives God's Children  blessings --peace --prosperity --health and joy and eternal life  .------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean-- I think this is great..----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean--Hi waterfall-- I believe you made some great post.I read every word you wrote . and wished ,I had wrote them.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------HOPE  SO  hard to explain , and YET can  be so  very easy.  HOPE is what every one in the World has. No Hope is what every one, who makes that wrong choice has. My Hope is that no one I know , or any one I talk to. Ever find them self  in NOHOPE.---airclean33

Everyone in WC is dumber for having read that.

Which verse in Yasht 10? I looked at the text at avesta.org but could only find the word "bridge" in the footnote. "Heaven" (or "heavenly" appears 33 times) not none are associated with a bridge and (in a quick scan, therefore may be unreliable) I didn't find any suggestion that people are to cross into heaven.

Sorry to be off the main topic. I just wanted to check the reference.

On the topic of hope and resurrection, I think RevJohn's point was less that Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected, and more that Christians believe and hope that they will themselves be resurrected. Of course Christians connect those two together!

According to the New Testament, some Jews believed/hoped in the resurrection. Many? Most? I can't say. The Pharisees at least. Only the Sadducees are presented as sceptics about resurrection. So even the New Testament makes it clear that resurrection was/is not a uniquely Christian belief/hope. SG already helped with Old Testament connections.

If Christians have a unique basis for hope, presumably it must be based on Jesus, since Jesus (and the Christian understanding/s of Jesus) is the basis of Christian faith. Of course Christian hope also rests ultimately on God, but obviously this is not unique to Christians.

That Christians are not the only people with hope is surely self-evident. I guess Canada's favourite example of people with hope are the fans of the Maple Leafs. Can they teach us something about hope? Something positive, negative, or both?

My father has hope, and he isn't a theist.

My mother has hope.

I have hope, and I don't "believe" in Jesus or G_d or the Holy Ghost

My sister has hope, she has her family and work and friends.

My brother has hope, and he ain't a theist.

And so on and so on

Everything in moderation.  Sadness and happiness, hope and despair, melancholy and fascination, etc etc etc.

Emotions and thoughts come and exist for a while and then go away...tides come in and go out...I can wish for the high tide, to embrace it, to feel bad when it is gone; the tide remains whether or not  admire it or not...

Your whole family are Maple Leaf fans?

*chuckle*

My father grew up in a family that included 4 brothers & 4 sisters and they were split 50-50 into Habs and Toronto fans; if they could get along then the Middle East can have peace :3

(I always have hope that the Canucks will win the Stanley Cup -- I think that the Habs & Toronto don`t need-deserve to because they have both won it so many times inna past)

No where did I use the word better - all I suggested was an empirical pragmatic test - I only suggested that some philosophical grounding valued up - so this means an atheist who sees that hope can help action is better than a religious person who thinks action is wasted.

On a pragmatic test those religious people who think hope is only for after death and thus action is a waste - let god do all the work - actually devalue hope as a base for action or hope as energy for action.  On the other hand, those people for whom hope is based on some sense of the action of God in moving toward beauty, do actually make a difference - an example was Martin Luther KIng jr and all sorts of religious people who work to make this world better.  But I never said that there were not atheist who also worked for the common good, because they exist.  My point of the MD is that his philosophical nihlilism made as bad as the religious person who says heaven is the goal, both become quietists and give up hope of changing reality.  True this world may end, but if that is a driving philosophy then it can lead to acceptance of evil now.  Hope knows reality and does not give up.

Pan, someone can believe in a hope in our current reality and also believe in the reality of an afterlife. It doesn't have to be one or the other.