Do we  not pray to someone , some entity. Who would God pray to?

Hi, Crazyheart!

Godself, maybe?

Have to think about this , Paradox. I can't get my head around it so early this morning. That wouldn't be prayer. It would be more like meditation if God did it.

Hi Crazyheart, 

God praying that "God's mercy might overcome God's judgement" seems a lot like a Zen koan to me.   Interesting that the concept comes to us from Judaism, because the only way it makes any sense to me is to use the framework of the Trinity.

Hello paradox3.......God bless you.....

Paradox3, I think you would be right in what I believe....that as part of the Trinity Jesus intercesses for us to the Father....Jesus done a lot of prayer to the Father when He walked the earth and of course prayed for us across time and space..in John 17...

IJL:bg

Hi ByGrace, 

Thanks for your post.  You have offered us one way to look at the question through the lens of the Trinity. 

God praying would have about the same effect as talking to yourself.

stoneyeyeball, that's exactly what I was thinking.

If we look at it from the perspective of contemplative prayer where we simply open ourselves to allow the Spirit to pray within us, then I think God could be said to pray.  When we open ourselves to God, and as a result live the way we are called to by God, then God works through each of us and all of us to transform us and the world.  That's how I think God prays - through us.

Why would god pray? That would mean there is something bigger than god. Do we really want to go there? Can we even go there?

Hi KillerRabbit, 

Hmmm... God and God's people together can be bigger than God, maybe. 

Thanks for joining the conversation on this thread ... P3

Hello Diana, 

That was beautifully expressed; thanks for your post ... P3

Stoneeyeball and Crazyheart, 

Could it be that God the Creator prays to God the Spirit?  Or do you think this is too farfetched an idea?

Greetings!

This is a very thought provoking question . . . so here is just one of many thoughts that come to my mind . . .

I think in some ways this is a question we are inadequate to answer.  It requires us to put God in a box, to limit God in our human understanding.  It is also limited by our concept of what prayer is - who can pray, how they can pray.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Greetings!

I think this idea could be somewhat equated to bygraceiam's posting about Jesus praying to the Father.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Hi Paradox3

I think it would depend upon one's theology of prayer.  Probably one's theology also impacts upon the discussion.

I think God does pray.  Prayer is a form of communication that goes beyond asking for a hand-out.  If we pray to God does God not pray to us in return?  Wouldn't that be how regular communication works?  If I talk to my wife and she refuses to talk to me how is our communication working?

If prayer is discourse then so long as God participates in that discourse God is also at prayer.

I pray that God might feed the hungry and God in return prays that I might learn how to share my food.  Are not both prayers directed at the same concern?

Operating out of a firmly Trinitarian framework it is not at all surprising that God might pray to God's self.  Jesus' prayer in the Garden, "Not my will but yours" is strangely reflective of my most desperate prayers.

And even if it amounted to talking to one's own self.  Reflection is the same thing and sober minds do that at least as often as diseased ones.  It is the logic process that makes the difference.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi paradox3: If one, as I do, regards God as the cosmic totality, in a state of synthesis, then of course God prays. God prays in and through us. To ITself.

Arminius

Interesting.  I don't believe I would have thought of that, but how true.

IT

Russ

Hi Russ:

Most of us suffer from the illusion of separateness, which is the root of human suffering. Prayer is very valid when it removes the illusion, when it removes our self-created barrier between us and God and makes us aware of our innate unity with God.

If, however, prayer focuses on the separate God, then it perpetuates the illusion of separateness as well as the consequent suffering, and upholds the barrier.

God is always united with us. It is we who have created the barrier between God and us, and it is up to us to remove that barrier. This, to me, is the purpose of prayer.

I think that if God prays at all, that it is a form of reflection, where God looks in upon itself.   Meditation.

As-Salaamu Alaiykum

-Omni

Yes, Omni, meditation is the most effective prayer. My favourite prayer is meditative contemplation, or reflection, in which I take the contemplative concept into the mediative state, then let it go without consciously directing it, and see what becomes of it.

Some people call it daydreaming, but I call it communing with God.

I'm good at that....more people are than they think...the power of day dreaming!

I also have a weakness for simple mantras..."Aum" being a good general purpose one, and "Allahu Akbar" is actually simple to pronounce without much thought, or sometimes just "Allah", it's all tongue work.

In a state of synthesis fellow traveller :)

As-Salaamu Alaiykum, Allahu Akbar

-Omni

paradox3

Your topic is something I surely never encountered before. Here's another link that speaks to it. I have a problem with it in that it makes God sound very much like a human , but of course the Old T. gives God the same human emotions as mankind. I don't think I agree with it. Its too primitive and it makes God sound no  higher than we are. Whatever....my definition of God is "energy" or along the lines of panentheism  although I'm not sure I understand it. If all is God, we are God etc. then maybe the God referred to here does have frailities. Gosh...its too hard to understand....lol.

Quote:

Interestingly, the Rabbis of the Talmud do not ask the question that forms the title of tonight’s sermon, “Does God Pray?” That much, they apparently take for granted. Instead, they ask: “How do we know that God prays?” And they wonder, “What does God pray?” (Berachot 7a)

To answer the first question, the Rabbis point to the Book of Isaiah (56:7). The prophet offers a universal vision of foreigners, not just Jews, coming to worship at God’s holy mountain. God says: “I will let them rejoice in My house of prayer.” In Hebrew, though, that last phrase, “My house of prayer,” literally reads, “the house of My prayer.” In other words, the Temple may be viewed, not only as the place where God is worshiped, but also as God’s very own synagogue, where God goes to pray.

And what is God’s prayer? “Rabbi Zutra ben Tobi teaches in the name of Rav: [God prays:] ‘May it be My will that My mercy may suppress My anger, . . . so that I may deal with My children in the attribute of mercy and, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice.’”

What a remarkable prayer! These words seem to suggest that God may lack full control over God’s own actions, even over God’s own emotions. God seems to recognize that God is occasionally too strict, too tough on humans, causing or allowing bad things to happen, instead of overriding the wicked with mercy and love. God may be omnipotent, except that God lacks full power over God! God sometimes doesn’t live up to God’s own desire to be a loving and merciful God.

Some of us will be troubled by a God Who must pray for Self-control. We fear that the world itself may be without direction. We wonder how we can trust in the Lord, if our heavenly Sovereign is unsure of just exactly how God should act.

Others, though, will be inspired and comforted by this image of God. After all, we are created in the Divine image. God becomes more real to us, more available to our individual spiritual search, if God is a little less perfect, a bit more vulnerable, even in need of inspiration.

Perhaps most importantly, we may offer a prayer similar to God’s. Too often, our own demand for justice is without mercy. We look to punish the criminal, more than for rehabilitation. We justify our family feuds, when we could work to restore relationship. We nurture our grudges, emphasizing the slights we have suffered, rather than searching for a better future. The faith that God struggles along with us, hoping to become just a little more merciful, may direct our prayer. We may ask God to help us to forgive those who have hurt us. We beseech the Lord to direct our own hearts to make peace where there is strife.

Ultimately, we may come to an understanding of the efficacy of our own prayer. In the Talmud, Rabbi Ishmael ben Elisha, the High Priest, tells a story of having entered the Holy of Holies, the most sacred enclosure of the ancient Temple, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year. There, he sees God, enthroned on High, crowned in glory. God appeals to the High Priest: “‘Bless me, my son.’” Ishmael then blesses the Lord with the same words of God’s own prayer: “‘May it be Thy will that Thy mercy may suppress Thy anger, . . . so that Thou may deal with Thy children according to the attribute of mercy and may, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice!’” Rabbi Ishmael further asserts that, after the blessing, God nodded to him, approving of the prayer!

This teaching is profound, for it suggests that the prayerful words of a human being may have a profound effect on God. Our prayers do matter to God. Our petitions may move the Lord to action. Indeed, our supplications may inspire God to pray, just as we pray. Perhaps God can bring water to parched fields, can find a way to mend a broken bridge, can work to rebuild a ruined city. At the very least, God may add Divine prayers to ours, with faith that our thirst will be slaked, our spirits will be healed, our nations may find peace.

Rabbi Levi of Berdichev is said to have been asked how an omnipotent God could permit bad things to happen to good people in this world. Rabbi Levi taught that the situation is analogous to our dropping a Bible on the floor. We never wish to let a Bible fall. Sometimes, though, we are careless. At other times, even when we are careful, an accident may occur. More rarely, in an unjustified fit of rage, we may through the Bible to the ground, temporarily disregarding its sanctity. So it is with God. Our Creator does not want us to be in pain. And yet, sometimes, God misses the mark. When we drop a Bible, we pick it up and kiss it, before returning it to its place. Rabbi Levi of Berdichev taught that, when we are stricken by pain and misfortune, God has dropped us, as it were. And yet, in our time of distress, God lovingly picks us up, and kisses us.

May we ever pray with faith. May we live with trust in the Lord, Who loves us, cares for us, and only wants goodness for us. Let us not see our misfortunes as evidence that God does not exist, or is callous to our needs. Instead, through each of our trials and tribulations, may we hear God’s prayer for us. And may God hear our prayers for God.

Amen.

Full article here:

http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0118.htm

Hi Beloved, 

Thanks for your post, and for pondering over this ... P3

stardust

What a beautiful quote.

Thank you.

IT

Russ

Hi RevJohn, 

Thanks for your contribution, and for exploring the question (Does God pray?) from a trinitarian perspective.  I am starting to think I operate out of a pretty firm trinitarian framework myself :)

Hi Arminius, 

How turquoise of you, LOL.  (A reference to Bruce Sanguin's book, for anyone who has not been following the latest wondercafe book study ... P3)

Stardust, 

Thank you so much for your very helpful contribution (I agree totally with RussP).  I need to give it some further thought, but I am intrigued by the ideas it contains.

Omni, 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about meditation.

Hi stardust: You pose the question: "What does God pray?"

Answer: God prays that we humans find our way back to where we came from: God.

We shall not cease from exploration

And at the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

Through the unknown, remembered gate

When the last of earth left to discover

Is that which was in the beginning;

-T.S. Eliot

Hmmm...just think, if God does pray...then would prayer then not be a godly trait?  not just a virtuous one?

If so, would it help more people pray?  Or would people start to examine why and how they pray?  And would it reinforce their convictions in prayer?

Interesting idea no?

As-Salaamu Alaiykum

-Omni

Yes, Omni, if God prays for us to come closer, and we pray to God to come closer, then we'd actually come closer to God all the time, and pray more and come closer yet, and prayer would, as you said, reinforce itself.

By "prayer" I mean any activity that brings us closer to the Divine.