I think Heaven is a word used to describe another dimension of being in which one experiences community with God. Heaven is *home*, that place that we are journeying towards. As for rules etc, I think that is dogmatic clutter . People like their rules. I think everyone has the God *seed* within them and eventually each soul will find their way home. After all, we are all part of humanity. We are all made of starstuff. How can our ultimate destiny not be one and the same? Take down the man made barriers whether they be barriers of culture or religion and look at humankind as One. We are all earthdwellers, its not so complicated.

Does Heaven exist?

Not likely, and certainly not in any form we've imagined.

Simple answer: No.

In the contemporary sense, no. But there is something for us after we die. Why else would there be people who have near death experiences?

NareKICK,

Hi.

You wrote,

"However there are way too many rules and regulations for you to in fact get to Heaven."

I agree with you. If you break even the least of the commandments (and I have no clue which one that would be) you might as well go out and break them all because by breaking one little commandment you throw all chance of getting into heaven on your own merit out the window.

Pretty disturbing.

And yet, God is gracious and Jesus claims to come that we might have an abundance of life.

So maybe neither you or I could earn heaven on our own but we could get it handed to us as a gift couldn't we?

If I work 20 years at 50, 000 a year I will have earned a million dollars. Most of it will get eaten by bills and taxes so I will never have a moment where I am a millionaire. If somebody offers to hand me a million would I spit on it?

Seems to me that Christianity gives us a choice. Try it your way and fall short or accept God's help and enter into God's rest.

I can't walk through the door, run through the door, limp through the door or crawl through the door but if Jesus carries me through I'm still inside.

John

This is a good question!

The Bible is clear in that heaven does exist. It is the dwelling place of God, Jesus and the angels.

The Bible however doesn't bring out that we all have the hope of going to heaven. Rather, it says that there will be 144000 who are bought from the earth to serve as priests and judges with Christ in order to bring the remainder of us, still on earth (a 'great crowd') to perfection.

There is also no teaching of hellfire (or hell as being a place of torment for the wicked) in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that hell (or Hades) is simply a common grave for all of mankind. It also says that both good and bad people await the resurrection in Hades.

The Bible tells us what the penalty for sin is...
"The wages sin pays is death." Romans 6:23

It also tells us that after our death, we are no longer subject to further punishment for our sins...
"He who has died has been acquitted from his sin." Romans 6:7.

Hello narekick, there are so many scriptures in the bible that show that heaven, does exist. Research the bible and you will see. As for rules there are not rules to get into heaven, all you have to do is have faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ , we are justified by faith, salvation is the only way , to be born again, is what is needed to go to heaven, Jesus tells us that in the New Testament. If there is no heaven, why would God tell us about Abraham, Issac and Jacob, He says he is the God of the Living not the dead. So where do you suppose they are now while they wait for the coming of Our Lord Jesus. In the New Testament it tells us before Jesus went to the cross He met with Moses and Elijah , where do you suppose they are waiting right now, the bible also tells us to keep our treasures in heaven, then here on earth, Our treasures would be so many things, God causes us to inherit substance, like , love, peace, joy, healing, wisdom, knowledge, family, friends, strength, courage our memories, these are just some of the things we will need to come back to help Jesus take back the earth for Our Father. I would advise you to read the whole bible and throughout it , it will tell you about heaven in so many different ways. Have faith in our Lord Jesus and except His , great gift of salvation which will guarantee you also will go to heaven. If you need help with that contact me. When Jesus walks and speaks to you, then you will really believe in the heaven He has in mind for all of His Children, who are to inherit heaven and earth with him.

stargazer that each soul has the seed of God. How about this when the Lord speaks to satan. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed. it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is often portrayed as the church.

Nope. This is all there is, kids. Make the most of it.

It's a form of extra-terrestrial abduction. I believe you can buy insurance against it. If you have problems finding an insurer, send me your money and I'll look after it for you. In fact, send me enough money, and I'll give you a platinum-edged assurance that YOU will NOT be abducted by aliens.

NareKICK,

There are no rules to go to Heaven.

Jesus did away with all the rules essentially, as He fulfilled them for us.

All He says is tie a rope around my middle and hang on tight, I'll lead you there!

Be prepared for those that will shout at you to let go.

Be Blessed,
IB

I think that the heaven of the bible is a human construct, like so many things. Having said that, however, I truly believe that everything points towards there being a continuation (in some form) after death. Death is just a form of change--for example, prior to birth each of us lived in a uterine world that was very different from that which we live in now. Perhaps our birth was a death from that world. And before the womb each of had life as either an egg or a sperm--certainly not the kind of life that we have now, and not like the womb, either. The transition from egg/sperm to embryo was also a form of death, followed by birth as a developing human. And so on. And always, God's presence and God's plan......
We don't die, we change.

If you believe in Heaven does that mean you conversely believe in Hell?

Can't say I have ever believed in Hell!

When others pass away -- I tend to believe that their soul moves on and that I can send private thoughts their way. I guess this is when your at a point in life when you can imagin exactly what the person might say or do or simply you wanted to share a special moment with them.

Perhapse the point is not about Heaven or Hell but rather the moral -- live life well -- forgive, love, help and enjoy! Have integrity and give respect.

I beleive in Heaven. Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us. And there will be many mansions. The worst part about hell will be the abence of God and therefore everything good. Jesus paid the price for us (if we beleive) to go to Heaven. Why else would He have died?

D_n_D: Perhapse the point is not about Heaven or Hell but rather the moral -- live life well -- forgive, love, help and enjoy! Have integrity and give respect.

I couldn't agree more. Heaven or hell I leave up to God. All I can affect is the here and now, and maybe tomorrow.

I don't know if anyone else remembers this but there was a Christmas cartoon called the Fourth Wiseman. Poor guy kept trying to meet Jesus but always got sidetracked helping people. the gifts he had were given away to save others from persecution and whatnot.

At the end of his life, he lamented that he never met Jesus. and a voice says to him, "been here the whole time". I think heaven is kinda in the same realm. We may not see it, or know how close we are to it, but when the time is right we'll have the answer to the question.

David

There is a hillarious movie (Comedy) called:
The Fourth Wise Man - with Martin Sheen and Alan Arkin.

IB

looked a review on it. Sounds like it and the Christmas cartoon were probably based on the same story. I'll have to look for it on dvd.

Thanks for mentioning it.

David

I don't know if there is a heaven, but MikePatterson is one good looking man.

fickle 8-(

I believe that heaven exists as a spiritual world independent of this one. But I would rather be on Earth than heaven. Nothing happens in heaven and there is no good or evil, essentially a purposeless but peaceful existence.

If there were an endless supply of virgins, I'd reconsider.

You need that Allah bloke and a small belt of plastic explosives...then you get 72 if my memory serves me right.

God said it
I believe it
That settles it:)

Jesus believed in Heaven.

Does heaven exist? I don't know, I've never died...

I would ask though, if heaven does exist; how do we get it here? how do we bring heaven to earth? like Jesus prayed, Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth...you know the rest...

so if Jesus wanted to bring heaven here, it must be available for all people and not only Christians, more importantly we must have some mystic part in bringing it here and maybe it has something to do w/ forgiving our debtors as we have been forgiven...

I don't believe He was talking about Heaven. I think He was talking about people who would commit to Him and follow Him.They would be His kingdom.

One would be foolish to think that God Almighty Our Heavenly Creator does not have His throne set up where His son Jesus Christ (The Anoited One) is seated at His right hand and, I believe, Abraham seated at His left hand in this 'very real' place called Heaven. This is the final destination away from earth for all of mankind - where Judgement occurs. Come on people, do you not believe that our spirit, which leaves the body when we perish, returns to Our Loving Father? Yes!! And where does He dwell?.......thank you.......

PS.... Read the Holy Bible. In doing so, you may find out God's will for your life. Be Christ-like. Walk humbly as He did. Show kindness to everyone. Be careful what you speak of to a mocker {person who scoffs and jeers whenever the topic is about God or Jesus). Even Jesus avoided the Pharisees and the Sadducees from time to time because they denied that He was God's chosen son sent down by Him to save mankind. There were other times when He had a few choice words of wisdom that would silence the ones who had inquiring minds. Live Life. Love God. ......nuff said.

Third eye...du bist ein nutter.

TSK.....

I don't know about heaven. I certainly don't believe in Hell. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who believes in Hell has no understanding of the concept of eternity.

That anyone could ever do enough evil during a very finite lifetime for God to use it to put that person in torture without end is so ridiculus an idea, it's unbelieveable to me that anyone ever believed it. Whatever you do in your very brief life is not equel to eternity in torture. That's a mathmatical truth. Any finite amount is basically zero compared to eternity. Think about it. If you were punished for 1 million years for every single little sin you ever did, that would still be exactly nothing compared to being punished for eternity. There's no way any higher being who was loving would think that was anything resembling fair judgement.

dont try to understand heaven
dont try to understand if there is, or how or why
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND
human minds cant understand this

we can omly understand how to get there......
and most of the time we can not even figure out that

we dont understand are own world, how are we to understand God's?
we just have to believe

i know that sounds like a fairy tale, but because we cant understand all we have is faith

I think Heaven actually exists, but it's not like what people may think. My opionion is that its just a final resting place for the soul or a place to stop before being re-encarnated. But, thats just my opinion.

sure heaven exists because if heaven didn`t exist then where would god and his angels live ? i know god and his angels exist because me and my aunt (bygraceiam) taught me a trick to show that angels existed.by setting cheesies somewhere.(bygraceiam will tell you the story)

all my prayers, ilovepeace

I want to hear the trick for meeting with angels! It sounds really interesting!

As for heaven, I'm not sure that there is a physical place somewhere. I think it's actually a state of being, something like what the Buddhists call enlightenment., a state of inner surrender...

I wonder, has anyone read any of the classic theologians on this topic?

Getting back to the original question, and suppressing my annoyance at yet another supposed trick to see 'angels'...

Heaven both exists and is a construct of the human mind, One's soul is not a physical being, it does not go anywhere or experience anything. One's soul is their identity, who they are.
Our image of Heaven is simply a easier way to understand the idea of one's soul being in a state of goodness, being remembered fondly and respected. There are no set 'rules' as there is nothing supernatural judging you. The rules set out in the Bilbe are simply fundamental guidelines for living a good life that you will be remembered fondly for. You are judged by the consciences of other people who will be forgiving and merciful, that is what God is.
By a deeper interpretation the Bible confirms this as well as the world around us.
Mark 4
33With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand.
34He did not say anything to them without using a parable.
Jesus spoke and taught in parables and metaphors, and likewise his story is a series of parables and metaphors. Jesus found this to be the simplest and most effective way to teach his important lessons, and once you realize that you can come to a deeper understanding of what good and evil.

I read this last night in a novel. The question was asked. Where do we go after we die?

The answer was given in this illustration. here is a teaspoon of salt and here is a glass of water. Drop the salt in and stir. What do you have? Salt and water in a different existance. That is where we go after we die.

crazyheart,

Hi,

I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to mix me into a glass of water when I die.

Well, maybe if it was a really big glass.

Nobody would want to drink it though.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Rev John = LOL

Revjohn, you could always suggest that they put you in with some yogurt, maybe soy milk, some berries... blend it all up... a lovely mid-morning treat! I did that with my placentas! ;-p Very nutritious!

you did that with your what??

Agnieszka

Hi,

You wrote:

Revjohn, you could always suggest that they put you in with some yogurt, maybe soy milk, some berries... blend it all up... a lovely mid-morning treat!

Ashes and bone grit with yogurt.

I think that would effectively ruin a company.

You wrote:

I did that with my placentas!

Ummmmm. Did you puree the placenta first? They look a little too big to stir into yogurt.

You wrote:

;-p Very nutritious!

I bet it would be. Still I don't see Yoplait surviving that additive.

"Try our new Boisenberry flavour, now with placenta!"

That would be to yougurt companies down in short-order.

Makes me long for lily-pad root, plain, hold the placenta, ash and bonegrit.

Grace and peace to you.

John

crazyheart,

Hi,

You gasped:

you did that with your what??

Her placentas. Although I'm pretty sure the placentas were for her kids and not for her. Still, maybe they were canned when she was an infant and they were kept till later.

Some good preservatives b'y!

Grace and peace to you.

John

No, seriously! Dehydrated and milled, placentas can be added in small quantities
to various foods to help with postpartum recovery. I am totally serious. You know, all animals eat their placentas right after giving birth! And some people use them in lasagna. You can get the recipes on-line.

But, truth be told, I only got as far as paying someone to dehydrate (uhm... bake) and mill the placentas from my two babies...
I still have them in the freezer.
Thinking, I might use them to fertilize garden instead...

"I still have them in the freezer.
Thinking, I might use them to fertilize garden instead..."

the placentas, NOT the babies

revjohn tells the 9-1-1 operator nevermind and slowly puts the phone back on its cradle.

Whistles and hums awkwardly for a bit before shouting "look at that and pointing wildly"

When everyone turns back, he is gone.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I like the analogy and it demonstrates the necessity of metaphors. Like something dissolving when we die we are no longer visible and the sweetness we've contributed in our life carries on into the world around us. It is easier to understand then a more complex philosophical explanation.

I agree, nontheistquaker.
Sometimes I think metaphors are the core of religions - the stories, the images, the language we all use, Muslim, Jew and Christian, Hindu, Buddhist... And I think, if only the fundamentalists amidst all faiths grasped the fact that we are dealing with (and in) metaphors... But, even this statement would be seen as heresy... Oi oi oi.

Rev John said "I can't walk through the door, run through the door, limp through the door or crawl through the door but if Jesus carries me through I'm still inside."

I get what you are saying Rev John, but this doesn't really answer the question of "Does Heaven Exist?" Oh sure, it suggests the fact that you think it exists, but it all seems pretty metaphorical to me. I can picture a man in a flowing white robe carrying Rev John through a golden archway because Rev John is too immobilized to get there under his own power but...

Metaphors aside, is there a physical place or is it all puffy clouds and pearly gates? NareKICK knows that the "man in the red suit" is a myth. He may also be aware that the message behind the myth is important. That caring for others, especially children and especially especially the disadvantaged is the spirit behind the man in red.

So in the case of heaven, where does the myth leave off and the actuality begin.

It is my belief (and there will never be definitive proof (perhaps we need divinitive proof?)) that there is no heaven. I also believe in evolution and science. It is my working hypothesis that there is no heaven until proven otherwise (likely by my own death). I refuse to be bullied by those who say there is one and I am going to hell. Ultimately my afterlife destination is between me and my God. I believe the setup is that I get this one life and I have to do my best with it, God being my helper.

The first time I had Heaven described to me I was about 11, and at a christian summer camp, up a hill about to go swimming in a "bottomless" lake. I thought the girl who said all this about streets paved with gold and gates made of pearl must be completely batty, then discovered everyone else there believed it too! This frightened me to be surrounded thus.

At another camp I was sent to, the kids were all packed into a room and a pastor at the front drew a dot on a chalk board and said, "This is your life on Earth." Then drew a line to the edge of the board and said, "This is your life with god." He explained that kids who didn't believe in Jesus would go to hell after death and began describing hell. Naturally I was most uncomfortable and somewhat scared and confused by all this new information.

It is my opinion that Heaven exixts only in the minds of living people as a state of sheer joy, something that can be accieved only while alive, or perhaps during deaths final release. I liken it to nirvana, and enlightenment. And I think it the most wonderful accievement during life. To quote Belinda Carlisle, "Oooo, heaven is a place on Earth".

I don't believe in punishment or reward after death. If there is anything we can experience, I think it would be cleansing, forgiveness, oneness with everything, perhaps a return to the pool of all existance, be it concious or not. I think we return energy and body to the earth, and thence the universe, upon death.

Excellent question to ask !

i don't beileve that there is a heaven at all, not only does it plainly not make sense but do animals go to heaven? if not then why do we? and in heaven what age are you? i am more content in passing on. It isn't the after death i fear it's the 10 mintues before.

That's the funny thing with death; no ones ever survived it to let us know what's on the other side.