MadMonk,

Hi,

You asked:

"Is ecumenism dead?"

I think it might just be comatose. During my time in Newfoundland and Labrador Ecumenism was very much alive and I was very happy of my working relationships with clergy from other denominations and was welcomed warmly into all other places of worship.

Of course, in a community of 3000 there is a greater degree of connectivity as families were often spread out over two or three different denominations.

A lot of our Ecumenism on local levels rests on convenience and the ability of the clergy to play nicely with each other which sadly is no longer a given.

Of course, if we keep rubbing each others noses in our own deficiencies ecumenism will flat line before too long.

Seems a shame that we can all agree that Jesus said we ought to love our neighbours and then we feel we have the right to pick and choose who our neighbours will be.

John

Wow, given the tone of some of the discussion so far, this is a really really great question. And of course, I have no answer.

I would take it even further though - beyond Christians (although our infighting is puzzling) to all religions. The fact of the matter is that religion is the biggest cause of war, death, killing, and other badness ever. Truly, at some level, religion is a force for evil in the world, which is a huge shame, because it is also such a force for good.

Religion is nasty when it gets into "us" and "them" to the extreme. The only way to combat that is to have real open and honest discussion (ohh, like maybe wondercafe) where we can actually come to understand and respect each others views. If your views are correct and mine are not, and I am going to hell, then the discussion is really over isn't it?

So if ecumenism is dead then we in serious trouble. Ecumenism can't be dead, we can't let it be dead. Jesus was one of the biggest proponents of breaking through barriers like this and I think we need to take his lead on that.

Although this may be the exception to the rule and not the norm, the churches in our community actually practice ecumenism to a really high degree. And we're in the GTA! If interested, check out www.missionflamborough.blogspot.com to see how our churches have come together.

I regularly go out with a bunch of different guys and we worship beer. We're all from different backgrounds with different views etc and we get along OK.

So if I could make a suggestion it would be to introduce more alcohol into your gatherings and I bet you things would get pretty ecumenical in no time!

I've often been told that in small communities, a clergy's best friend can often be a clergy from another denomination in the same area. In a small town, who else is a clergy going to discuss personal issues and on-the-job difficulties with? To a UCC clergy, a salvation army chaplain can be a good friend/colleague.

Athestio: I think you have a really good point there. Maybe not so much the alcohol in church (although... ). But religion seems to be the only place where this is hard. Politics, Sports, toothpaste, we all have different views and opinions, but we can usually talk to each other about it. Politics does get nasty, but it doesn't get so... i don't know, black and white maybe? We all understand that there is gray and that we can learn from each other and that different view are important, if not valuable. I tend to lean left in my political views, but I would hate to see a house of commons without representation from the right - keeps balance. Theology should be the same way - different views can only enrich the discussion. Maybe if more of this type of discussion happened over beer we would be better off.

:) I like a beer now and then. Sometimes on the way home from a Bible study group. Politics can get childishly agumentative but we have to remember the audience they are playing to. But faith questions... whew. The actual term Christian can be embarassing to use at times. Everyone defines it to mean something different. Christ is the pathway God has used to lead me but I have no problem with how you approach/visualize God. I do have problems with the radical folks who think only they have the answer. And their absolute denial of other folks spiritualism is going to tear this poor world of ours to little pieces.

I know a group that does a bible study called God and Guiness.

*sigh* I wish I went to that church.

But as for small towns, you're right, it does work better because we are all friends and neighbours. In the city, it's easier to draw a crowd by denouncing the church down the road.

Hey all,

I'm on my way to the airport and so haven't read all of the posts yet, but will....

I can honestly tell you, as the only Canadian on the Executive Committee of the World Council of Churches in Geneva, that Ecumenism is not dead. I think it's just buried under a pile of paper somewhere.

Wondermail is a good thing, and I'm pretty good at emails/wondermails, so if you have specific things you want to ask, fire away. Otherwise, let me get settled into the airport lounge and get a couple of other things done and I'll try and give you what I think is the faint but beating pulse of the global ecumenical movement.

C>

Ok... safely ensconced in the airport drinking coffee and having a bowl of soup.

Sooo..... read everything, and I like the discussion. I suppose it depends on how we define "ecumenism" to begin with. The World Council of Churches view ecumenism as denominations working towards Christian unity. We do this really well through the life and work o of church activities in partnering with other denominations (as was already mentioned). Where it's difficult and painful is in the faith and order side where we become more vehemently attached to our theological, ecclesiological, and spiritual self-understandings. For example - during my internship in rural saskatchewan, you ask a bunch of different denominations to host a grief workshop during the holidays or coordinate a food bank problem... they're all there with their sleeves rolled up. You ask them to pray together in the week for Christian unity, then we start discussion "who" is a Christian, "what is unity" etc.etc.. and everything becomes convoluted in the attempt to define who and what we are as Church and as churches (capitalization intentional).

Ecumenism is also more and more commonly used to refer to interfaith dialogue, but I think that both Christians and non-Christians alike tend to take certain issue with the transferance, and I personally prefer to keep ecumenism and inter-faith terminology separate. (Not the least of which reasons is that Christians - in all our past (and current) imperial colonialism have been really good at using our language to describe or misrepresent the experience of 'others' in the world.)

My experience of the World Council of Churches General Assembly in Porto Alegre, Brazil in Feb. 2006 was a very positive one. I have grown up with family in minsitry who were also involved with the WCC in different capacities, and I think in a lot of ways when I compare my experience with that of my Grandfather's... some significant strides have been made. I don't think my grandfather would have ever dreamed of hearing an Orthodox Priest saying "The oppression of women is a cultural appropriation of Chrisitanity which has nothing to do with our faith, and everything to do with being chauvanists. Oppression of women in the name of religion is a perversion of theology." BOLD WORDS! Those words, and the experience of interacting with Christians from all over the world who have very different beliefs and self-understandings, gives me hope that we can make the corner when it comes to respecting our diversity in our unity as people of Christ.

I'll post on my blog a sermon I recently wrote highlighting specific stories of my life as an ecumenist so far. If you're interested, check it out at http://girltheology.blogspot.com

Blessings on your journeys...

Carmen.

Rev john I have no trouble communicating with catholics or anyone else from a different denomination. But what if that church is not preaching the true gospel like the Roman Catholic church forbidding priests to marry, or making the virgin Mary intercessor instead of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

From Mark's Gospel:
"John spoke up, 'Teacher, we saw a man using your name to expel demons and we stopped him because he wasn't in our group.' Jesus wasn't pleased. 'Don't stop him. No one can use my name to do something good and powerful, and in the next breath cut me down. If he's not an enemy, he's an ally. Why, anyone by just giving you a cup of water in my name is on our side. Count on it that God will notice.'"
- The Message

Sylviac,

Hello again.

You wrote:

"But what if that church is not preaching the true gospel like the Roman Catholic church forbidding priests to marry, or making the virgin Mary intercessor instead of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?"

Does God need us to defend him? I really don't think so.

Do we wrestle against flesh and blood or principalities and powers?

We might not like what they teach but if we don't belong to their church they are not accountable to us. They are accountable to God and God will hold them accountable.

We might be concerned about the impact they have on other people. I think it is probably safe to say that if I didn't like the way you treated your houseguests and I just showed up to tell them that they were sinful and you were a hypocrite for not calling them sinful I might as well be spitting in the wind.

Most people do not like being called sinners--even the ones that acknowledge they are sinful don't enjoy having their noses rubbed in it. Especially by other people who are, in their own way just as sinful.

Even if I grant that the United Church is the most thoroughly corrupt denomination that has ever existed and that every member has the mark of the beast stamped in triplicate on their foreheads you don't get to throw the first stone until you are without sin.

Unless I'm reading my scripture wrong.

So the United Church is not perfect. Maybe we could try a little harder. Probably wouldn't hurt for us to crack the Bible open a little more often but when it all comes down to distinctions it is just the old 'we' & 'they' thing going on.

We aren't like you so we must be wrong.

If I read my scripture rightly and the United Church doesn't qualify as scripture you have some options.

1) do not associate with us lest we corrupt you.

2) treat us as you would a sinner or a tax collector (technically those would be your neighbours and so I think you would have to love us)

You decide.

John

Rev John I am going to quote some scripture to you. John 8-9 If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrightenous."

This is my beef about the RC church. They dont confess their sins to the Lord, but to a priest. who also is a sinner. Therefore their doctrine is false.

United Church accepts homosexuals who say that homosexuality isnt a sin. The scripture is plain enough for everyone to understand. So my question is by accepting homosexuals,but they arent sinners, then are they saying John is a liar?

My understanding of RC doctrine is that confession happens to God through the priest acting as mediator (the same reason that prayers are offered through MAry and the Saints) not to the priest. DO I agree for the need of a mediator? No. But it really isn't that big an issue.

ANd you keep going on about "if we say we have no sins". But I have yet to read anybody making that claim--just some disagreement about the sinfulness of some things.

Forgot to actually respond to teh question.

I think that in some ways ecumenism is getting harder as the world in general becomes more afraid. Fear does strange things, one of them is lead to a hardening of postions in the name of security and protections. THe problem is that such hardening makes it more difficult to talk to each other.

I have heard it suggested that part of the answer might be to look past orthodoxy-based arguments. Put aside the question of right-belief and look at the question of right-action. THen find where we can work together. Who knows, as we work together on a shared project we may start to talk about what links us and what makes us different.