My Lord! Have you ever hammered the onyx my friend.

The "onyx", in ancient Hebrew, is darkness, the nail head or the foci of the eye of God ... imagine the pain in that "I" when Hur'm's child was injured on the cross ... needlessly ... only to protect the rich and powerful who were fearful of the unknown. This message is passed in the Gospel of Nicodemus (devil?) in the field of open awareness of what had transcended. Physical power would have nothing of this ... such script was destroyed in fire by the religion of Rome ... "We will not deal with the unconscious, and thus they lost touch of the Jinn/Gem!

Roman piousness hates thinking ... therefore the soul ... what are the consequences of losing the soul ... the thinking bit of the trinity, or quad that makes up the persona ... the character in the play?

M'n or Mann is a funny isolated gift in space ... fallout of heaven for a painful lesson on infinite alchemy? Shabbat friend of Haggadai ... Saints or spirits. Few like ghosts of a story it seems!

Verbal Abuse, or other: I received much of that same abuse as a kid and became very sensitive to such actions. Some come out of that abuse by supressing the feelings and becoming a brute, others are mutes that explode unpredictably and catastrophically ... like a Big Bang in space ... know thyself is the best order of the day ... a difficult archiological dig in the dirt of your past ... if you care to clean up the skeleton for future use. You do pass trends on ... look at our present social order ... then some hate socialization. I could go on and on in that regard.

Pain is a wonderful teacher if you have the clues to learn from it! It takes two ... a Deuce ... snake eyes and we wonder about the reverence of the Cobra in the wilderness! Isn't that sum' thin?

Hi Marnie:

From early childhood on we are fed the concept of being a seperate, individual self, until we cave in to the pressure, and start believing it.

Can you imagine what the world would be like if we were taught that we are inseparable parts of a greater whole, also known as God?

@ Waterbuoy re:

"We will not deal with the unconscious, and thus they lost touch of the Jinn/Gem!"

Yes, the question of what are jinn and what is their relationship to the unconconscious is a very interesting one.  I met a jinn once, for three or four seconds.  I haven't told that story anywhere on my sites.  Shall I tell it here?

"Pain is a wonderful teacher."

It can be, if we work to intend that it be so.  It can also destroy us, if we don't actively work to transform it into something else, as you point out in your comments about your personal history of abuse.

I do love reading your posts, Waterbuoy.  There is no one else like you in on wondercafe.

@ Arminius, first, hi, Arminius, good to hear from you!  Second, re your question:  "Can you imagine what the world would be like if we were taught that we are inseparable parts of a greater whole, also known as God?"

What if we're both, Arminius?  What if we're part of a greater whole and also individuals?  Is that possible?  And how we will arrive at the truth of our identity?

Marnie,

a whole bevvy of thoughts. Another riff.

Sometimes I suspect that one of the roles of society is to make sure that we don't get too conscious ;3

One of my russian friends was involved with an 'accelerated learning' program in school. It was eventually cancelled, because of the uncertainty and fear that the government had in trying to come up with ways of dealing with a program that would get people through 4 years of University in 6 months.

I particularly enjoy Douglas Hoffsteader's thoughts on the 'self': a self-writing poem with the material reality of a rainbow. He came up with the idea of a Strange Loop, which is something that, by itself, doesn't have an existence, but that, paradoxically, has an existence and refers to itself.

Perhaps the self is a necessary illusion, like the notion of free will? Which would untie the paradox of your first two sentences.

(I like the notion that my neurological self exists, in that it has a mechanism, AND that I can change it/rewrite it -- this, I think is the goal of consciousness exploration)

There have been many different people in many different traditions who have found out, I think, a fundamental truth -- that our 'inner selves' are mirrors to the outer world, in some way even determining the outer world. And if we can change, intentionally, our inner selves*, then, the outer world changes...

(it has been said that, in my society, I am raised in such a way as to be in a double bind: to be spontaneous in my reactions, yet to love my parents unconditionally -- which are two mutually exclusive statements. Alan Watts takes that to also say that we are supposed to think that we have some kind of 'Driver' in our heads, looking at everything, causing our actions, but we aren't supposed to ever be aware of it or pay attention to it)

Thank goodness there have been, there are, and there will continue to be people who are willing to explore themselves. Like Gurdjieff. Chopra. Watts. And, most importantly, they do it with humour (thank G_dness the Sufi were there to make sure Islam survived...)

A self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

* I'm of the view that there are some 'styles' of self-brain-change that are potentially dangerous for the unitiated -- the stuff that Crowley did is for people of a certain type, experience and skill set, ferinstance. So, in a way, I guess it is good if society would be resistant to ways of consciousness change, because we wouldn't want to many to be crazy ;3

Hi Marnie:

I like WaterBuoys posts, too. They (and probably he as well :-) are beautifully and divinely mad, aren't they?

Oh yes, Marnie, I think we are both. We are both, inseparable parts of a greater whole and unique individuals.

In my perception, God, or Kosmos, multiplied and "uniquefied" ITself into countless unique forms. We, the form self-named Homo sapiens sapiens, have become self aware, but not yet aware of who or what we ultimately are. We believe to be separate, disconnected ego individuals, and this belief troubles us to no end, and may well be the undoing of our species.

The greatest thing we can do for ourselves and each other is to find out who or what we ultimately are.

I think that you, Marnie, have dedicated yourself to this most worthwhile human endeavour.  

Hi Inanna:

I'm somewhat familiar with Crowley and his Ordo Templi Orientis and its offshoot, the Gnostic Catholic Church. Hubbard originally was with the Ordo Templi Orientis, but split, and sold their esoteric secrets for lots of money through the Church of Scientology.

I think there is nothing that those esoteric mystical schools teach and sell that can't be achieved by simple meditation: Sitting quietly, doing nothing—but doing it well!

If we do it long enough, then we'll eventually be enlightened.

However, you may be right, and some form of guidance may indeed be advisable on the mystical path. I regret that we Christians don't have a mystical sect like the various Sufi sects of Islam or the Zen sect of Buddhism. I dabbled in both, and took my inspiration from them. It would be great to have our own Christian mystical sect, though. I agree, it could save Christianity!

To all who have posted thus far:  wow! what wonderful thoughts you all have.  Reading them is like drinking fine champagne, it's like being back in Texas with good smart friends and a bottle of Calavados brandy on a night of serious drinking - and talking.  This is turning into one of the best conversations I've had in years.

Re InnanaWhimsey's:

"Sometimes I think the role of society is to make sure we don't get too conscious."

George Gurdjieff thought so.

"Perhaps the self is a necessary illusion?"

Perhaps, but this begs the question, necessary for what?

"Our inner selves are a mirror of the outer world, even determining the outer world...."

Yes, you are right that the mystics are agreed on this point.

"And if we can change, intentionally, our inner selves, then the outer world changes."

Ahem, this idea is trickier.  The outer world may change, or it may just burn us at the stake.  It's been known to do both.  The problem is that the outer world is not determined solely by our inner selves.

Regarding all of the comments about Aleister Crowley:  He is most famous for a saying "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."  What his nibs "wilt" in the end, was to die, as Gurdjieff would have said, "like a dirty dog," a heroin addict, alone, bereft of friends, family and money."

to Arminius, thank you very much for your kind comments.  I don't deserve them.  I would dive right off of the path to goodness and enlightenment a thousands times more a day than I already do, if I could; but God, knowing I am weak, resolutely denies me the opportunities, and determinedly trips me up when I make a dash for it. 

My daughter tries to console me with:  "Maybe you'll become a saint in your next life."

re Arminius's regrets that there is no mystical Christianity.  Gurdjieff occasionally told his students that they could, if they liked, think of his teachings as being Christian mysticism.  The Bektashi order of dervishes adheres to both Christian and Islamic beliefs and practices.  There is a powerful shaykh in that order who lives in B.C.  He is a Turk.  His name is Murat Yagan. 

John Godolphin Bennett, one of Gurdjieff's students who became a teacher in his own right, believed that all religions had something unique to contribute to the world. 

He believed that Christianity contributed a unique set of values and ideas, mercy, redemption, charity.  He believed that Buddhism contributed practices that developed discipline, the power of attention, and the ability to 'be.'  He believed that mystical Islam contributed the 'how' of spiritual transformation, the methods and strategies.  He believed that Judaism contributed the concept of transformation through conscious suffering (as well it should, because no other people has had so much practice at suffering.)

Love, is that like a saac read Socialistic order hated by many ...

Plasma, bloody well in the bag!

Then there is the other perspective: "Hate the intelligent bits!" (perhaps "bits", because as a mortal in the infinite maat', matrix, we are nothing), a good place to start a bright social order of the heh'art? Gathering place of the nick'd tar of the Gods? Careful of where you share it plasma-like siblings ... what an eg'-pedantic sort of loose collective? Lacy, or Luciferrous ether? DARK what ... aque-us fluid?

What is crazy: thought or feeling, in Jungian myth? Let us caress it with this perceptive from Robin Will-I'ams:

"You were given a spark of mad Ness, don't lose it!"

Now I might not follow his celebrity path (certainly not celebate) but perhaps great bate for the Piscine for the great One!

Alas none believes in an evolving 'c'OzMeuse! It is all in the writ!

Zhi tzi, which is hot tea in another tongue ... nicked tar of the Gods all around you and a poor isolated beast (M'N) would never recognize it for his hate of th' aught. Perhaps feelings could stand some balance with feelings ... what justice in this world? Only in the Egptian myth Isis is a cool precessing ether!

Is mankind to stoic for understanding thought, a myth in other words?

Do real physical people hate those that have delved into the unknown and returned with a giggle? It is a near brush (Bo*ish) with intimate pyre ... it leaves some people bi-polar and severely disturbed in separation, tear-roarism! Is that normal in a san' world without adjoining spirits (Elisha)? Be patient ... the infinite is! Don't rush them you need time to prepare ... life is an exercise in the pain of learning. Believe me you have a lot coming!

Is pane, a view on the tri-X-stir ... emotivating force ... light in a swirl dancing about Joe's BLTZFX bra ins torm, brea St of God ---haggadai?

Mei, what I ... just a bug under thiskyn called God ... symbiotic order that the isolated bit like to take as Dr. William Glasser's theory ... Control! Face it people, in the larger picture ... we control nothing but are just active part like Brownian Motion ... emotive to what? When you discover that you have the perfectseven and are ready to move! Humbling stance eh!

I am just waiting, sharing, God people hate the Shining, like sin  in the Hebrew script, three-pointed prong: is there a goan forth?

First one must study the word ... projection of a Ka ring'd sole! There's a lot to go through 600,000 bits, crazy Job but sum one had to do it! I'm just part wah there! When you get beyond the Box you can look back at yourself ... go to that gravid place with no regrets, there they stick for a vast era of time ... some say near infinite. To others it is just a myth (beyond their comprehension), stretch it folks or it won't work well in flight!

Interesting thread, for sure!

My own perspective is based in the scientific study of psychology, though I appreciate the perspectives of mysticism, philosophy, and other religions.

To comment on the "self" being a necessary illusion, I would agree with Arminius, in that we start with a definite sense of "self" and "other" when we begin to grow up. This is especially evident in young children who are prone to thinking in very black-and-white categories of "me" versus "you" and "mine" versus "not mine"...though there doesn't always seem to be very much that is considered to be in this latter category of "not mine"!

I would echo what others have said, that there is a heck of a lot going on "below the surface" so to speak, in terms of what we think we are deciding/controlling/acting on, and what is actually happening. A confounding factor in all this is the agility with which human consciousness can generate ad hoc and post hoc explanations for behaviour and phenomena that appear and feel quite logical, but are not really "true" explanations. So our sense of a unified "I", "persona" or "personality" acting in the world as a coordinated agent is probably an illusion. Yet we do seem to start with a very powerful sense of self, and attribute it to others, even to the point of anthropomorphisation. It's inherently human. I would argue that, in many cases, it functions as a heuristic which allowed us to survive, in an evolutionary sense. Rather than analysing everything, most of the time, we can get good results from thinking this way. That doesn't make it a "true" or "ultimate" impression, it just makes it expedient. And many humans who have the luxery of our basic needs taken care of, have discovered ways to circumvent this sense of self to get in touch with other truths and realities beyond this, notably in the religious and mystical traditions.

Hi Marnie:

Yes, I know Murat Yagan and the group around him in Vernon. I don't like the way they worship him, though. His biographer, Joan MacIntyre, said with deep reverence: "He touched the Source!", and he himself said that he had sex with as many female devotees as there are hairs on his head—and he isn't bald!

Not my model of an enlightend mystic.

There are some Sufi sects whose leaders appoint themselves as intermediaries between God and their devotees, and either demand or quietly accept tribute in the form of personal worship, devotedness, personal service, and sometimes money or material wealth. Such "prophets" or "spiritual leaders" misuse their powers!

I guess the old ego creeps in on them, eh?

Hello again, Marnie:

Yes, the motto of Aleister Crowley and his Ordo Templi Orientis is "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." The Gnostic Catholic Church quotes this in their profession of faith.

This may be fine for enlightened mystics, but not for everyone!

But not even highly evolved mystics like Aleister Crowley and Alan Watts are perfect. The death of Aleister Crowley of heroine addiction reminds me of the death of Alan Watts, who died of alcoholism. Apperantly, and despite their wisdom, they didn't know how to live and die well.

Arminius,

Might the old roue about authority corrupts ... be an ultimate end, (ultimate authority corrupts ultimately) and Gods of the mind are very small things that disturb our thoughts in reflection to earlier comments that I made about people that thought they were God ... were disturbed by clear thinking?

I'd be small and humiliated too to have not asked forgiveness for some of the huge mistakes made in history ... can you believe it?

ID's got to stir the Cauld(kold)ron where "ron" is an ancient deep hole that is left from the digging of cold irony. Real people learn about the mean-Ness of authority in such understanding (underneath) catacoombs of the mine'd ... the sole piece of dirt we stand upon. You have to let the words be fluid!

How did these old stories gather in pleats of such synchronicity? And the disbelievers don't know nothing about string theory and a good bra'ide of story of the ID. That's another tale left in the shining ... sum dark night, we'll talk!

Giggles and whistles of escaping esteem from the depths of an introvert! What? Ides a que to something far deeper ... whetted sole in heat? Now that an emotive spin!

I like to share experiences, but I hate to be put on the top of a post ... it carries some deep archetypical images that bother me. Pres. Harper failed to see ... then what did he see below the ivory towers? Sam'son in a lowly pushover of thought ... it'll destroy blind emotions every time ... (eph) framed in story! Did you ever hear about the morph 'n of eph into a function of f(x) an incident in depths of space, we can't tell which side the loss of thinking occured until after the FAX.

Hello everyone God bless you.....

God gives us the Gift of Life and we must dwell in the physical until such time God lets us pass over to the world He made for us at the beginning of time....Our self nature goes againsts Gods nature of Loving, sharing and being in Unity with one mind of Love and peace for all the earth...we are only here to learn , grow and then decide what kind of person we want to be ...mostly our self nature is " get " Gods nature is Give they go against each other in all ways....the scriptures say we must loose ourselves in order to find our selves..this makes sense when we realize the physcial of self and change it from mortal to immortal...this is what God is all about ...He lets us choose a righteous life as He cannot make us this way it is something we must choose it is something we become and this takes a lot of time as we struggle to over come the self / get in ourselves....

To strip our self nature and take on the giving nature of God is what God is all about and the only way we can do this is by experiences good and bad to learn what we become...we can become bitter and blame God or we can in Truth admit we should be more loving of each other sharing in the Love and Unity of God...in this world I have chosen the Give attitude and although it is works always in progress I keep slugging away at it...I will not let the bad things of the world make me bad...so I keep my physcial mind stripped of such things the past being one of them..yes it is not fair that I was abused , used and beaten, but I do not hold my abuser all responsible for it is not flesh and blood we fight in this world...sound pretty scary...but I choose to be free from the abuse of the past , the injustice and lack of truth and unfairness of this world...I will not let myself become bitter and take on a self "I attitude..is this not what free will is all about...and what we dont learn here we will have to learn in the next world....

I believe this is just part of the journey of God ...and being here in the physcial world is how we will grow in God and change ourselves from mortal to immortal ..but only through knowing and loving God....amen and amen...this way we become Love and in Unity with all things with the same purpose in mind....Awesome God we Worship..

IJL:bg

Hi  Arminius,

"The death of Aleister Crowley due to heroine addiction"

I thought it was Murat Yagan  who idolised the ladies!

(Sorry about that, once a schoolteacher's daughter - always a schoolteacher's daughter!)

Don't worry, you'll get your chance - I'm a hopeless speller these days!!!

Hi Pilgrims Progress:

I too have been heroine addicted—spiritual heroine, no less—since my early teens, and still am. (there you go: double addiction :-)

No kidding; I find pious women irresistibly attractive, and always have. It is their piety that attracts me. (What did you think?)

Murat Yagan must feel the same way. I swear to you, he ain't bald. On the contrary, he's got a full head of hair!

But now, that he's around 80, and his hair is beginning to fall out, he's slowing down a bit.

I don't dare show up at his commune, for fear that they'll make me his successor.

I couldn't take it. Too much of a good thing!

@ Arminius re Murat Yagan.  I don't know Mr. Yagan at all.  I have one of his translations.  I contacted him by email once, and we had a brief exchange, via an exquisitely courteous assistant, which seemed to establish that he was not the guide I was looking for.  It was a question of perspective, not morality.  Do you mind if I ask you when and where he said he has slept with his students?  I have an interest in knowing this, in that I am occasionally contacted by people via my web sites who are looking for something in the way of Sufiism.  If he is not to be trusted as a teacher in the Bektashi tradition and you have reliable evidence of that, then I would very much appreciate if you would tell me so.  Thank you. 

to Arminius re Crowley and Watts and "despite their wisdom, they didn't know how to live and die well."

Perhaps that is because there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.  Wisdom requires the ability to appreciate what you know and the ability to apply it.  This is called understanding and it is not the same as mere knowledge.  Then too, it is not enough to know and understand.  One must choose.  "therefore, choose life, that ye may live."

and again to Arminius re "There are some Sufi sects whose leaders appoint themselves as intermediaries between God and their devotees, and either demand or quietly accept tribute in the form of personal worship, devotedness, personal service, and sometimes money or material wealth. Such "prophets" or "spiritual leaders" misuse their powers!  I guess the old ego creeps in on them, eh?"

I would say that "the old ego" never left, in such cases.  The Forty Sacred Traditions [Hadis-i Erbain] compiled by Sufi Shaykh Sadreddin-i Konevi discusses the situation you have described and the terrifying spiritual consequences, in the "18th" tradition.  See my friend Tim Thurston's excellent translation of the Hadis-i Erbain:  cid-0bcdffb6f4cf5aab.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Hadis%20i%20Erbain/Hadis%20Commentary%20in%20English.pdf

to Kappa, hi there and thanks for joining in!  Your coments from the perspective of a 'psychology' map are very interesting.  Is there anything you can tell us about how to work against the generating by our unconcious of "confounding" "ad hoc and post hoc" false explanations?

Hello, bygraceiam and God bless you, too.  Thanks for joining in.  We've really got a good group forming here.  I am particularly interested in your statement that:  "I do not hold my abuser all responsible for it is not flesh and blood that we fight in this world."  Could you expand on that, explain it a little?

to Waterbuoy re "I like to share experiences, but I hate to be put on the top of a post ... it carries some deep archetypical images that bother me."

Waterbuoy, is it making you uncomfortable that I've started this post with your letter?  Because we can start this conversation again with a new title and leave the letter behind, if you wish.  Once we start it up again elsewhere, I could contact an Administrator and ask them if they can delete this one.  Would you like me to do that?

re:  "Giggles and whistles of escaping esteem from an introvert!"  Do you write poetry, Watebuoy?  Because that is very poetical.

Hi Fakirs,

This has been an interesting post, thank you.

My ideas on the ego and how it relates to Arminius's idea "of inseparable parts of the greater whole" (when Arminius's not lusting after pious women), I owe largely to Marcus Borg.

Borg tells the story of a three years old girl greeting her new-born brother for the first time. "Tell me about God, I've almost forgotten?", she asks.

Borg's idea is that we come from God, and at birth we are still at the stage of being part of the whole.

During our life's journey our task is to discover ourselves (ego) and the uniqueness that that entails. But, as we do this necessary task, we become more self-conscious and wrapped up in our private concerns.

This leaves us with a sense of loss, because we have a dim memory of what it was like to be a part of a whole. Thus, we need to recover that sense of whole to recover our true self. That's why mystical/spiritual experiences are so important and so rewarding.

Hello fakirs.....God bless you....

Ephesians...6:11....

The believer must put on the whole Armour of God (goes against ego) that he may be able to stand against the stratagems of the devil...the enemy has various stratagems...discouragement , frustration, confusin, moral failures and doctrinal error...he knows our weakest point and aims for it ...the battle is against demonic forces , against battalinons of fallen angels , against evil spirits who wield tremendous power ..though we cannot see them we are constantly surrounded by wicked spirit beings (and also Gods Warrior Angels)...while it is true they cannot endwell a true believer they can oppress and harass him...in the Armour of God , he has all he needs to hold his ground against their onslaughts...the apostle speaks of these fallen angels as principalities , powers , rulers of the darkness of this age..spiritual hosts of wickeness in the heavenly places...

When we are struggling against these forces in others , our loved ones, family friends etc...it is a battle to help them see the darkness upon themselves and to try and change the circumstances that affect them in their lives...with Gods power it is possible to confront the past demons for example and clear them from your life...but the enemy doesnt want this person to be free of the past and keeps them , in guilt, shame etc..it only by learning that we have the power through God to beat this force of the enemy that we can truely be free...

It is no secret that if there is a Father, Son, Holy Spirit and angels at our disposal to help us in life...that there is an enemy....this has been told to us by God from the very beginning of the bible....so when you come across some one for example who is living the terror of a past they cannot get clear from , remember that behind them stands the enemy who doesnt want God in their lives and will fight against this ...that is why warfare in prayers helps to break these stronghold in this particular situation...but we must continue to support , encourage and love this person regardless of how lost or bitter that person might be...yes they are responsible for leaving the past behind per say...but the enemy still battles to keep them there...

That is why is we must accept others for what they are , until the time arrives that God enters their lives and by faith they have the power to bring themselves forward and to freedom for their living Soul.....

IJL:bg

Re: Fakirs Canada (is your name Marnie?)

I would say the best thing to combat unconscious influences is to have an open mind, in my experience. Only if you are willing to have an open mind about yourself, reality, and how the two interact will you be able to become aware of these unconscious influences. I think it is very difficult, but I think it is somewhat akin to what is sought after in Buddhism through meditation (could be wrong though, my knowledge of Buddhism is limited). It might also be very difficult because the human mind is not actually DESIGNED to have insight into these things. It might be trying to look at the back of your head using only one mirror: very tricky.

Also, paradoxically, it might help to have a strong sense of self FIRST, before you look at the multiplicity of influences on your decisions. Having a sense of coherence and purpose in the world is something that, when lost, often creates a lot of stress for people. In the study of mental health, NOT having a coherent sense of self is seen as a sign of distress and problems (I do not pass judgment on whether this is necessarily the case, but it seems to be true, more often than not, that losing one's sense of self and/or purpose in the world is related to personal crises of great stress).

Hi Marnie:

There was a full page article in the Vancouver Sun about Murat Yagan a few years ago. (They might still have it on file. Try acessing their archives and punch in the search word "Murat Yagan.") In this article he is quoted to have said that he has slept with as many of his female devotees as he has hairs on his head.

I am not at all impressed with the way he and other gurus, including the much revered Dalai Lama, permit to be personally revered with worship-like devotion.

Marnie, regarding the harmonic whistle of escaping whatever:

Folks don't butter it too think, I prefer to think of myself as a wee folk ... bit of a Pagan devil perhaps ... but you see and understand more from within the heap ... like that old story of the sparrow that survived the cold night in the pile of horse manure. It somebody hears you singing too much ... you'll get eaten alive. You folks have been quite kind to me campared to what some extremists have had to say. I don't take their comments too seriously but their expressions tell too much of what they are capable of in real life.

It is a thin line trying to remain humble and yet share some of the things a person learns while passing through this life. Whatever you do, someone will call you a smart ass and someone else will call you stupid for the same thing (different perspectives in the relational game). An old teacher friend and I get a great laugh out of the aspect ... "the more you know the more you begin to realize how stupid you're getting ... a losing game in this dimension of observation. Is there another? Self-realization?

I often wonder if you are lifted to another dimension; will the underlings do like those dukes of eastern Europe in the Middle Ages impale a sole on a stick, or is that just satire about letting the old geezer free? There are some old words in dead languages that have far deeper meanings than what we would use them for today ... and yet those people in those times had little use for another life expecially an alien that they might learn miraculous things from ... like a cede right out of deep space ... the heavens. What a come down. In the terms that, I shall share with you over the next period of time, are some grand metaphors for deflation.

Everytime I see a picture of Old Faithful, I think of some deep seething eruption and wonder if I should head for cover, in case one isn't protected from the fall ... whether you are on top of the heap or the bottom ... it is still a fertile pile ... of Hot Stuff!

Knowledge sets one free? You bet! But then there's soo much falling stuff to get clear of in Eris 'n moment of inertia ... perhaps it is better to be in the shade of someone that doesn't know any better ... like Arminius states about some of the esteem'd leaders and individual inappropriate behaviour. It might be enjoyable but perhaps one should hide under some kind of tree, forest, or other island community overhead ... it is a means to survival. Did you know the Devils Causeway connects the Isle of Mann to the land of Eire ... underwater? And British Nobles considered Ireland a hinderland ... like the hind brain. What part of our head sees things best? Isn't that odd ... hindsight is better than 20-20? It is enough to quench the devil's hot stream of laughter. A cool drink or a dark bath?

My Icon is a picture taken from a highland of Grand Manan Isle. just north of a Basaltic structure in the Western Hemisphere that contains a similar stone wall called the "devil's causeway."  In some places it is near 400 feet high and looks over the most eastern shore of  that people called "US!" It is so symbolic in dark humours ... that I couldn't take the image at the height of the day ... it was done before six o'clock one Augustine morning while the dew was still whetting the visions of night!

Can you imagine the dumb sole that would rise out of the deeps for such nonsense? Or so I am told!

Then there is the matter of the old Geezer that took why-Agra ... supposedly for his aged wife's benefit. When the medical person called to check on his condition and his spouse  of some seventy years said: "Oh, no doctor, it wasn't that which killed him ... it was all the vain dancing that he did after the ralization of what he could do with a wee assistance from some dumb pills of friends!"

Sometimes it does some good to have some really weird enlightened friends! Then others who are busy at difficult stuff ... won't know what thou gigglest at! Have shing daze ... Steven King generated a twist about that one.

Arminius: your quote:

I am not at all impressed with the way he and other gurus, including the much revered Dalai Lama, permit to be personally revered with worship-like devotion.

Agreed! 

I don't really have names at the moment but a few  gurus have fallen by the wayside because of their love for lots of women and sex. I'm thinking about Osho as one example.

Here is something new the Dalai Lama is doing. Its off topic but I just wanted to mention it.

I think its good!

Osho ( Rajneesh) is very popular  and he  has a large following still. I used to read a lot of his writings. Love him! Its too bad power drove him nuts.  I'm not too familiar with Gurdjieff except from reading  on forums.

Quotes:

Rajneesh, and the famous Greek-Armenian mystic George Gurdjieff, often used the power of the Atman for clearly personal gain.  [See photo of Gurdjieff.]  Both men used their cosmic consciousness to overwhelm and seduce women.  Gurdjieff was ashamed of his behavior and vowed many times during his life to end this practice, which was a combination of ordinary male lust backed up by the potent advantage of oceanic supermental power.  Rajneesh went even further and used his channeled cosmic energy to manipulate masses of people to gain a kind of quasi-political status, and to aggrandize himself far beyond what was honest or helpful to his disciples.  In Oregon, Rajneesh declared to the media that "My religion is the only religion!"  Diplomacy and modesty were not his strong points.

     To my knowledge, George Gurdjieff never reached the extremes of self-indulgence of Rajneesh, and he even warned his disciples not to have blind faith in him.  Gurdjieff wanted his students to be free and independent, with the combined abilities of clear mental reasoning and cosmic consciousness.  Rajneesh, by contrast, seemed to believe that only his thoughts and ideas were of value because only he was "enlightened."  This was a grand error in judgment and revealed a basic flaw in his character.  Unfortunately, when Rajneesh achieved the ability to fully channel the power of the Atman, he failed to apply the needed wisdom of self-restraint.  His human mind so rebelled against Asian asceticism that he failed to ensure that his borrowed power was only used for the good of others.  Rajneesh was driven by strong personal ambitions, not just compassion.

http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html

Hi stardust:

I know one person who was "enlightened" by the Bagwan Rajneesh. "The Bagwan took one look at me," he exclaimed glowingly, "and I was enlightened!" When I asked him about the experience, he said he felt flooded with light and experienced an overwhelming feeling of universal love.

I think the Bagwan had telepathic and/or hypnotic powers, and (mis)used these powers on his devotees.

When I encounter someone who admires me too much, I discourage them severely, and go as far as purposely offending them, so that they will dislike me. So please, stardust, never admire me, or I will have to offend you, and I don't want to do that. 

O Messiah....whatever you say, it shall be done!

hi Arminius, I tried to find the info you cited on Murat Yagan, but was unable to do so.  The Sun papers don't keep much of an archive.  I've never been able to bring myself to like the Dalai Lama either, and I have tried.  When I was at Claymont, a Gurdjieff school, were bundled off to Washington to hear a talk with the Dalai Lama, and I wasn't impressed.  I have a book of his on love.  I've never been able to get through it.  And yet, one of the most influential experiences of my life was a ten-day retreat on the South Carolina property of Josh Reynolds (of R.J Reynolds, no less), also while at Claymont, with an old Cambodian Buddhist monk.  So it's definitely not the Buddhism that bothers me.  I just don't like the Dalai Lama - but I don't know why.  Not that I think China should be able to stop the Tibetans from choosing the DL as their spiritual leader, if that's what they want.  I agree with your lack of trust in the whole guru thing.  Claymont Director Pierre Elliott used to say, "beware of charisma."   That's what so many fake spiritual teachers trade on.

Having said that, Murat Yagan is from the Melamet tradition "way of blame."  And they are different.  They are perfectly capable of casting themselves in a disreputable light for a good reason.  I give an example from my own experience (my one and only example - it was much too painful to repeat) on this page:  fakirscanada.googlepages.com/exorcismandthewayofblame

In this connection, about the comments made thus far about Bagwan Shree Rajneesh, now called "Osho:"  I remember way back in the early 1990's the scandals surrounding him.  He also claimed to be of the way of blame - and the successor to Gurdjieff.  I think you have to look at the effects of someone on the world around him.  When I searched for info about Murat Yagan, all I could find was positive reports.  (There may well be negative ones, but I had limited time to look.)  With Rajneesh, you won't have any trouble finding trouble around his history, especially if you search under his former name.  I met one of his disciples in Oregon.  Heck of a nice guy, an artist.  I still wouldn't go anywhere near "Osho."  I agree with Arminius that the guy has hypnotic and other unusual powers.  I believe he is a "bad shaykh."

Hi Pilgrims Progress and welcome to the thread!  I am not familiar with Borg.  I will try to get to checking him out a bit in the next few days.  Thank you for your interesting and thought-provoking comments.

Hi Stardust, thanks for joining in.  I agree that this is not the only life we get.  Even the Quran hints at reincarnation:  "We recreate you in places and ways you do not expect."

The very best book on George Gurdjieff and his teachings is "In Search of the Miraculous," by Peter Ouspensky.

I've studied his ideas with people who studied with him, Pierre Elliott, George and Mary Cornelius (may they all rest in peace); and I studied the works extensively of another of his students, John G. Bennett.  Moreover, I am in large part a product of Bennett's legacy, Claymont.  I have never heard of the licentiousness you quote from forums.  I know that his teachings have dramatically altered my life and literally saved it on more than one occasion.  None of his students, not even the stuffy Foundation teachers, a couple of whom I studied with while I was in Texas, were into being worshipped.  Rajneesh, on the other hand, was very into being totally obeyed.

Stardust, I read the link you gave about the Dalai Lama's endowment for funding research into the neuroscience of compassion.  It seems a worthy project to me and a laudable attempt to reconcile science and faith.  Somebody should tell killer-rabbit and spockis 53 about that article - it would be interesting to hear their reactions.

Hi Kappa, yes my name is Marnie Tunay.  I write under Fakirs Canada.  My homepage explains the significance of the name:  fakirscanada.googlepages.com/

Re your comments about an open mind and Buddhism, yes, it's called the practice of cultivating non-attachment.  The idea is that our attention is carried away constantly by every passing thought and illusion.  Cultivating internal stillness, what the arch-enigmatic Carlos Castaneda called "stopping the internal dialogue," allows us to develop, refine and focus our power of attention.  This enables us to grow in spiritual 'being.'  I believe that discipline, bodily and especially, mental discipline, is Buddhism's greatest contribution to humanity's legacy of spiritual teachings.

Your comments, which connect the ideas of "a strong sense of self" together with "having a sense of coherence and a sense of purpose in the world" are very interesting for me.  I know I have the latter two, and I dimly sense that my ego is very strong; but I've never made the connection between the first and the latter concepts.  I'll have to look at that deeply.

Hi Waterbuoy.  About your comment that the more you know, the more you begin to realize how stupid you are getting.  I think it's more likely that the more you know, the more you begin to realize that what you know is small compared to what you still don't know.  And we forget where we started.  We forget that once we were stupider than we are now.  I think the time that it is true that the more we know, the more we actually do get stupider - is when we start thinking that we know more than we do - and arrogance begins to taint what we know.

Hi Marnie

Thanks!

The scientists have a petition going against the Dalai Lama regarding  that project. Newscientist has removed the latter part of the article  which I read unless you join their  website.

Here's an article about Darwin. I'll post it because Newscientist will probably  remove some of it too.

Yes, Marnie, there are Sheiks that had great power, and misused it. People who abuse their powers can be found in any belief system, and in political and daily life as well. Great power leads to great temptations. The story of the Temptations of Jesus—peace be upon his name—demonstrates that vividly. I wonder whether Mohammed—whose name be praised—faced similar temptations?

It could well be that Murat Yagan was joking when he made that remark about having slept with as many women as he has hairs on his head, just to cast himself into an unfavourable light and prevent being worshiped. He does not have a bad reputation in Vernon. In fact, most Vernonites never heard of him, which probably is a good sign.

I just didn't like the way his biographer, Joan MacIntyre, said with such reverent awe: "He has touched the Source!", as if there had not been countless and uncounted others who had touched the Source. After all, we are at one with the Source, so no big deal.

I kept the Sunday Sun page with the report on Murat Yagan; I'll see if I can find it. If I do, I'll mail it to you.

If your soul (or spirit) is directed on a path of foci (a point) one has little chance to spread like water ,or Eire for that matter. Like the concept of infinite soul there has to be a medium ... an interface? It is an odd thing in space ... pas in quanta?

Spread yourself thin, low and deep; it gives great UNDERstanding of ivory towers that are lost in the fog! Then you can giggle like the devil in obscurity ... the soul is like that ... hidden buried in a myth ... butte all but a rare few don't really believe such a thing exists ... so they don't treat it properly. It has a distinct hunger for what it created and can't see for the haze of authority. Fear will make them declare something that isn't ... at least to the RIP, the terrorised. Need I list examples of a' gap, or rapture? Itis something that needs Toby sown with mystery (to mankind). They don't want to see the other side!

The feedback can be rich ... and richly ridiculous! Like a soul relating to a spirit across a dark divide ... would that be sect or sex in the divine state ... Plate eau Nick? It takes  me back to the Gospel of Nick O'De Muse. Did you know that you have to be very careful when dealing with devices of delimit ... what some call deliminators and you can't even find the word in a Lexicon (wee Leprecon leap a'roues Ai). When you know the mnemonic and phonetic devices used over millenium ... a story comes alive .... confusing to a non-thinker ... so that call me an observational devil ... is that a' Kyn to Voyeur ... like Ullysis ... who pops up in numerous and various stories including that offspring of G. Stein that Eire we we call Joyce ... E's a killer to the stoic stick in the mud, potential for another kind of human tree ... growth of th' ought! My how we hate that one.

In the theme of high level sects in the night and several other Piscine th' oughts of soul and spirit I am about to post a Blog that I gave fore notice of yesterday I think ... time is fuzzy ... sometime like logic.

This thought came out of a UNB course that I am auditing, it is presented by an old friend a mycologist and theologian that seems to despise thought ... while worshiping the emotions. He claims to be a fun GUI, and is as interface for inter coarse discussion at times as he is threatened with my deep thoughts and isn't a bit in the wheel of cognizance on my emotions on the other side of that funny Pi:

Love is irrational!

Awareness is rational?

We of the paradigm hate rationality as thinking ...

Because it may tell the t'Ruth ...

E motion does not know anything ... until after the stilling of the spirit of the mind!

It is consequence of bean captive in a creature of clay-like emotives ... mis happen pot fallen from the skies ... with vision obscured by ... stardust, Tin Curb 'elle ... Peter Pan'd by a devil of th' ought a Pi in consummation? You are not allowed to speak of Love either in a hatefull place ... it might indicate you know something of the meme: common, space in franc tongues. Do you wonder in the dark when the dirty fractal is asleep?

Giggle like the devil ... it drives the stoic poe's crazy ... beginning of poe a' tri? You must learn to harmonize with the non existent space of the soul ... even if you don't see ID!

And the band played on!

Here, listen to what they were playing:

"Necessary illusion?"

Well, take a look at mercy. Does mercy really exist? In what ways does mercy exist? Don't we ourselves have to believe in it for it to exist?

"Crowley"

I think everything can be learned from, even something as horrific as the Nazis. I think it is healthier to consider there to be no deodands, just pornography. That written, I don't think I'll ever try out Crowley's actual Works...what little I know has scared me off of it -- I don't have the right 'umph' for his ways. What attracts me aboot him is how he seemed to apply the scientific method to his investigations...and the funny and ironic things that he has been able to influence, including modern Wicca.

"Inner world informs the outer world"

I don't think that I can, say, wish for a tail and poof, I'll get one, or wish that all Canadians weren't afraid of themselves and it'll happen, but I do proscribe to something called Sophisticated Realism, which posits that there is a Real Reality out there, independent of me, but that I will never, ever be able to grok it with fullness, but I can grok bits of it, in different ways, like Nasrudin's donkey. Much of what I call 'The Real World' is a bunch of social games that has real effects but that are created by my neurology (in relationship with that outside my neurology).

Scientists have and are and will continue to be finding this out. A S Eddington once wrote that "We have found a strange footprint on the shores of the unknown. We have devised profound theories, one after another, to account for its origins. At last, we have succeeded in reconstructing the creature that made the footprint. And lo! It is our own." As long as scientists aren't scientific aboot their science, then they'll keep on missing out on things...and the same thing with, say, devout Imams. "Those who take it literally, deserve it," says Discordianism. Those who use only one map...

Now, taking Buddhism, which seems to say that the difference between 'you' and 'me' and that chair over there is a matter of perception...then, as Erwin Schrodinger wrote, "All minds are one."

What I like aboot Chopra is here is someone who has been lucky enough, and smart enough, to try to introduce certain concepts, package them, to us literalist-reductionist-scientific Westerners...and I think he's having a blast.

There is a comic I really love, called "The Invisibles" by Grant Morrison. There is one scene in it where two of the characters are talking aboot the future, one of them saying that the future is going to be one where everyone gets the world they want. I think that is something to shoot for.

Just imagine, a world where everyone acknowledges their many personas and who regularly dive into themselves to explore their Inner Space (hey, there could even be resorts there, wild lands, and tour buses) and the Outer Space is festooned with gifts of the Imagination, everyone now free to express it, so if you want to visit the Visnu Hall, you can, which is right beside the Valhalla Bar and Girl(s)...

A self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

@ Inannawhimsey:  re "the future where everyone gets the world they want."

This presupposes that there is a stable and unified 'something' in us that can consistently 'want' and 'shoot' for a particular 'world.'

re Waterbuoy's "E motion does not know anything - not until after the stilling of the spirit of the mind!"

I believe that this is a very profound truth.  We have to be repeatedly tricked by emotion running through a disordered and fragmented power of attention - until we can begin to sense where the problem of emotional identification is rooted.

Let's move on to some fun analogies that I read in Doug Hoff's book I Am a Strange Loop. It, perhaps, could be put in a thread of its own, but...

Ok. We have transporter technology, a la Star Trek. Your atoms are taken apart and their positions etc are stored in a computer and that information is sent to somewhere else where you are reassembled from atoms there. Please go through each Situation seperately, noting your reactions and answers.

Situation 1. You step into the machine at Earth and are reassembled on Mars. Who is the real you?

Situation 2. You step into a machine on Earth and arrive on Mars. To discover that there has been a malfunction. You are still on Earth, but you are now smiling at yourself on Mars. Who is the real you?

Situation 3. They have built a safety feature into the transporters so that now, when the kind of situation that happened in #2, the original can only stay alive for 1 hour. So say this happens again. Who is the real you? Who is the real you after the Earth you dies?

Having fun on the ego highway,

Inannawhimsey

Hi Inanna:

A lot of people jump up and down because they don't get what they want.

I always get what I want because I always want what I get.

I love playing mind games like this!

1: The person on Earth!

2: The person on Earth!

3: The real me dies, and my dopleganger is left on Mars. I will see that man in Heaven unless hes my evil dopleganger.

That experiement works because as humans we have the ability to think outside of ourselves as two people. If that were a real situation it would be us still standing on earth thinking "that person looks just like me"

Ok I have another really good one! 

Situation 1: Imagin your body is made up of millions of cells. (which it is)

Situation 2: Imagin every cell is in itself a universe.

Situation 3: Imagine the universe you are in is a single cell like the ones that are in you.

Blow - your - mind! 

What! Are we allowed to speak of the mind and soul among a whole bunch of people that do not believe in such things ... especially if they feel we should contain the emotions?

Where if there is no balanced mind of caring thought with a third hand ... distant wiz Dome! It seems to be a future thing for quantumm or quanta-like wave/particles. Does there be another side that runs interference? Good Lord is that the devil or the twinned sibling in the Mir of space of the mind Jinn Anne I, or Gemini? Phonetic interference with pneuma and phonetics ....

The rule was don't go there! It was written by Moses (silly boy) and 'heh' broke the first set of roues and went back to the mount again ... after the place was set off limits (by Moses) so none would know what heh learned. Yah got to wonder about that rule about "I'M a jealous God" ... should we look into that?

And the winds bleu through stonehenge? On the sol-stays impression?

Are we talking about dissociated mind ... like pi-polar incidents in space? How could you have a bi-polar incident in the same space according to a' Pauling Exclusion unless ... the spirit is supposed to spit it out before the whole thing erupts. There are great metaphorical implications about sects here ... where we are not supposed to go if we believe God has nothing to do with infinite love and we are the castoffs ... orphaned in another space ... multidimensional th' ought ...

Unconnected? Should we change that state of mind?

Go Whey wit' yah ... get your own island unless you wish to share thoughts about that dark shadow in the persona .... called emotional point of the cosmos ... like a worm hole it always has another side ... Moby Dicks nemesis ... Ishmael ... gentile stir to the hole thing! It is a moving hole in the water about to consume a persona of pure love ... Ahab in ancient tongue is abs. Awe!

Would any mote/moot/modive person on an island believe such a story? Definition of Mann in the infinite space ... mortal ... it's got to be ... can't sickien a caring spirit ... then the (w)hole thing would be hate. It must be contained so ... that's the M'earth on a mote in the infinite ayin ... but you must get some understanding about the ayin! Such faces the a'yah in prehensile grasp of friends, lovers ... now that's something else in space! One should come out of this tier ...with a  lot of friends and plan to elevate them to a more intimate heaven ... where thoughts reside! Imagination a genteel realm is required! Sobeit, or is that S'm bait for the great simple penne traitor of mysterious space ... the drip, homo-sap we call mind? Twisted enigma! Sem ple Petr Oz ... a difficult point for one that fears a sense of learning the ropes when one is not taught such things ... like parents terrorized about a sense of Knowing God ... they proliferate like the plague ... without wiz dome! Its good for warloards and merchants of flesh ... workhorses that don't have shabbat to think! Leads to lose of mind Big Whey like a Bang in space ... hole in the fabric of the story ... look into it carefull .. they bite when un faerly stirred!

Marnie

I had read your quote from the Quran 4:157 on your web site. For the benefit of other wondercafers, it reads - "They declared - 'we have put to death the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of God.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they had only his likeness."

This is likely more insightful than most Christians realize. It perhaps says that they killed only his physical body but they did not kill him, the essential soul inside the body.  Jesus might refer to this essential inner soul as "I".

Hi Inanna, these are pretty fun.

Both are. Who we are is not dependant on what atoms we are made of. The carbon we eat is used to make up the things that we are, but then eventually it is replaced and becomes excreted as waste. It's not about what we are made of, it's about how what we are made of is constructed, and if the Earth me and the Mars me are constructed in the exact same way then they are both me. However, the Earth me is the original.

Both are again. This is a pretty interesting idea though, because even though there are now two 'you's, you should still be thinking from the perspective of the Earth you, which is the original. The other you will have its own consciousness, but you will not be able to think about it. So I would say that in this case, there was no malfunction, because you ended up becoming the copy.

Both are you, but the instant that the division happens, we get into who is the original and who is the copy. If when you say the "real you", you mean which is the one that went into the machine, then the Earth one would be the "real you", but if it has to do with identity, then they should both be the "real you", because they should both have the same memories, and therefore the same identity and personality. But once the copying has been completed and both are able to form new experiences (which should be instantly) then they become separate identities, because one will be the Earth version and the other the Mars version (or the original and copy respectively). They become seperate people from that point on, but up until that point (memory-wise) they are identical.

That sounds like an echo across the veil they call the dark Mir of the mind!

But alas so many say the soul, the mind, the psyche of the echo doesn't exist and doesn't care in singular nature ... totally deflated like an old fey art (creation) from space ... like nothing? Is this possible to create something from nothing without an echo ... reflection of the real and unreal things in duality ... a Perez/Paris or even a Gemini ... A' dum one and Eve ... the shadow of thought?

What a cunning way to hide the complex Maat' of Egyptian myth of a dry wind stir ... Ayres? Then there is Eire a land to the west with mists and Celtic Wiz Que for the spirit! Did you know that 'que' is a key question for what, how, when, where or why? If you can figure out the who ... the silent light comes on like a perfect seven ... the Jews called 'Ur menora, the Hebrews ... Bath Sheba a bath of darkness ... US surrounded by unknown spirits!

Well what did you think they'd call it ... we know little of the infinite expanse ... even the dark non-matter .... ante matter (demons, swelling up like th' ough; excuse me another non-thing missed).

They don't even have a word for it just anti-Semantics that has been often mis transcribed by those that don't know anything beyond an erronious book ... but it does carry a hidden spirit ... the soul of the whole thing ... not recognized by superficial man. It takes the subversive digging sort ... you know a real dog to those that can't get their covenant dirty. It's enought to kill a teaching rabbid persona ... and make a smart as's teacher mad as a hatter (not my comment, an expression of Lewis Carrol) on persona who penetrate the non matter of a private deep hole. (What a unique way to outline the contents of a non existent place for storing private thoughts ... an real outside chance) The O in flat-earth linguistics before the mind expanded in duplicate ... even multiple dimensions? Ain't that a bunch of chits ... fractals for those that can't count beyond one thy indeterminate's elf?

Then man gets mixed up between subject, object and verb and sometimes cannot tell the shift in old adjectives to nouns, verbs etc. ... real chaos eh! No one believes anything but it is all in there in a hidden manner ... if you can approach the soul of the whole thing ... a Holy mind! Ides a non existent thingy sort of metaphysical like mythological ... just beyond the beaten pathos ... hinderland of the nonexistent ... mind?

Hello everyone .....God bless you....

I believe it is the ego that stops us from seeing God , the Truth of God it is like the enemy wants us to be separate from God and this is just where the ego enters ...it lets us see God like seeing Him with coloured classes on ...as long as we let the ego run our lives we will never see God in the right perspective....

That is why the scriptures say we must lose ourselves to find ourselve...our ego starts working on our mind at a very young age...we must strip the ego in order to see God properly....amen and amen...

IJL:bg