Hi Happy Genius:

I'm energy; I'll never die!

Call me Syntheticist,

Arminius

Lately, I've stumbled over ideas that assume human supremacy  and perception in the universe.  We invented all those concepts and they derive from human sensory and neurological evolution.  Everything we come up with is just our construct.  We have a lot of cheek trying to define anything. 

The best we can do are very human-specific, working hypotheses. 

Just feeling a tad nihlistic today.

It's a good day for a bit of nihilism, I think...

I was reading some heavey-duty thinker who (evidently) did a lot of math and came to the copclusion that in all probability intelligent life in the milky way is confined to this one planet...

We seem so anxious to find life elsewhere...when it is VERY likely to be a meeting similier to the Astecs 'meeting' the spanards...

I enjoy yer posts...

Yes, it is safe to assume that the universe is beyond conceptual human understanding.

But IT is not beyond human experience. We experience IT, moment by precious moment.

If evil and heaven etc. didn't exist I do not think I would change my behaviour.  I am here to serve my fellow man.

Shalom

Mate

I'm  watching "The Passionate Eye" on CBC. There showing a documentary on the drug war in Mexico. They just showed the murder of a seven year old boy. Shot purposely from point blank range in the head.

This is just one of obviously many examples that convinces me beyond the shadow of a doubt, that evil and sin exist. For me, it's a fanciful idea that they don't. Along with that, if we all are just "energy" and live forever, where is the justice for atrocities in life like the one I just mentioned? Does not this line of thinking only pave the way for more violence and injustices in the world with people not having to think twice about their actions?

If the world was a different place, full of only nice people like Mate or Armenius and many others on this site who are happy in life and understand how precious it is, maybe I could consider the question. But the truth is, and tells me.. I can't.

Mike

I do not believe in literal heaven, hell, or the devil.

Metaphorically they exist.  People who live through war times lived in hell.  People who live in abusive relationships live in hell.  People who have lost loved ones live in hell.  People who have just had babies (if they are wanted) live in heaven.  People who get married for love live in heaven.  Childhood (before you worry about peers and the mortgage and mom and dad's marriage) is supposed to be heaven.

I do believe in evil.   Evil is a choice as well as good is a choice.   If you get a dog, starve the dog, beat the dog, and finally kill the dog that is evil.   If that dog escapes from the abuser it will bite out of fear and veangance everyone it meets.  That is also evil.   People suffer from other people's choices all the time much like the helpless dog.

HappyGenius: The question is, would the 'you' that dies - presumably the you on this forum - share the experiences of the 'you' in another universe that doesn't die, after death?  

And would we be the Aztecs, or the Spaniards?  

OK, so I really don't like arguing semantics, especially when it's used to dodge an argument, but I think a bit of that is actually necessary on this thread.  What do we mean by 'evil'?  The 'problem of evil' doesn't seem strictly relevant to the discussion of multiple universes and the afterlife.  But it has come up, and we oughtta clear the water here.  Are we arguing about the existence of evil, and what does that mean?  On one level, to argue that evil doesn't exist is to argue that there is no morality and people should be free to do whatever the hell they want, steal, rape, kill, etc.  On the other level, whenever someone posts something along the lines of 'evil exists', usually they mean evil as a cosmological force, rather than a spectrum of human behavior - evil as something independent of humanity, which I find absurd.  

BTW, smimik, I don't think heaven and hell are necessary for things to be right and wrong.  Nor would they necessarily be just, because eternal punishment is more suffering than any human could inflict during their lifetime - it's kind of overkill.  Just because the universe doesn't obey human morality and human ideas of justice, however, doesn't mean it's not our place to impose them on each other and ourselves, so our society can function.  

Hi Mike:

I watched part of "The Passionate Eye." Sickening indeed! I turned to something else. I witnessed so much violence as a little child at the end of WW2, it left me with a strong aversion to violence.

The Second World War probably was the worst evil of living memory. The main perpetrators of WW2, the German Nazis, stood up for what they believed in. So do the Al Qeda and the Taliban and other terrorists. Whenever I hear "standing up for what you believe in" praised as a virtue, I cringe. To critically examine what we believe in seems more of a virtue than standing up for it.

The way I (currently) think: 'you' never die. I may die here, in your universe, in mine, my disease was cured, my suicide attempt failed , the bullet missed me...the idea is that the one material thing that has/is Armitages 'energy' - is consciousness. The only thing science hasn't explained (And I've read five books that claimed to) is consciousness - that persists. Yours. You may die in this (my) universe,,,you will not in yours. For every event for which there is an alternative there is a universe...For every consciousness, there is a universe, which does not end. You will begin to see this when you become ...around 150...

Yes.  Actually we are the only intelligent life in this Galaxy. Evidently the mathematical odds against the complexity of our think-boxes being equaled are super-huge. (Or the mathematician is a homosnob.)

You do realize that I realize that I am way over my head in this: I am facinated by and curious about what I claim to 'know' about this...

I LIKE arguing semantics. Words, words words, Horatio...(Arguing, not quarreling, mind )

A thousand years ago I was forced to read some Plato and ran across this:

Socretes: The only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance.

THAT has stayed with me. And makes even more sense in the Multiuniverse: Your personal evolution is slowed down by commiting evil acts (due to your ignorance) but your prey is in the universe where the alternative occured...and his light was not put out. No universe is evil. It does not exist. Ignorance is pervasive. Our  purpose is to learn. Everything. And we have all the time in the world.

That ignorance eventually will be understood by the immoral. (Immoral to US, the Universe doesn't care perminant damage is not done...

As do I

Yeah. (Making placcard: "Hell is overkill!")

Thanks. For making my morning more interesting!

That's a bold claim.  I am aware that a couple of quantum ontologies posit multiple universes that encompass every possibility, but those are conjecture.  There are more parsimonious quantum ontologies that do not posit multiple universes.

Aminius I totally agree with you that it is more of a virtue to critically examine what you believe, and yourself, than just standing up for it. It's mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible a few different times that this should be done pretty much daily so that you don't get caught riding your own feelings in the wrong direction.

ShamanWolf I won't argue with anyone about the examples you gave on how or if evil exists. I will only say what I believe in.. with what I've seen and see go on around me, what has happened in history, and what has been shown me. So with the examples that Arminius has given, plus so many other situations that could be brought up and talked about, I believe that evil, or sin is in fact part of humankind.

Socrates is kinda right when he said that about knowledge and ignorance. The problem with the world is how many chose ignorance.

Yes. It's also a convenient claim. Conjecture is what I'm all about. And I grasp at this conjecture as I grasp a new idea from Niebuhr .

It's for me either to conjecture or take 456 math courses. Very akin I think to theological conjectures, which this is but has the patina of ---science!

Well, taken as written, your claim is actually false.  You wrote a specific if-then statement, but the "then" does not follow from the "if" - even if the "then" is true, in the end, your assertion that it follows from the "if" part is false.

Does making such a false statement bother you?

You DID notice the "if" qualifier, did you not? Please state my false claim. I have my apology ready. Bother me? Yes!  My world now is but a large bag of anguish, I live in the slough of Dispond. My very first false claim! Drat. 46,234 claims I have made and now, I slip up. "If it is but party true" is quite a qualifier to a fairly general conclusion. Please clarify. so I can apologize and dimish my continual pain.  

Or is that to which you refer?

Your if-statement:

Your then-statement:

The "then" part does not follow from the "if" part, because quantum-mechanically constructed theories can be partly, or even mostly, correct, without the "then" part necessarily being required or even implied.  So the if-then statement is wrong.

SIN.

If sin is in the hearts of man, through hate leading to murder, war, genocide, evil, greed, malice, jealousy, envy, lust and so on... and you can see this anywhere and not from the biblical perspective.

The words of Christ were "Out of the hearts of men come nothing but only evil. Murders, adulteries and fornication. (The fornication part has always been a tough one for me....)

What he is stating is man is not capable of living apart from the direction of God and seeking to do what is right, just, and good and moral. The righteousness of mans heart is filthiness as rags in Gods sight because we harbor the same sin that we see in the committing of it.

As you look at the world and its direction through the course of history you can see that there has been a steady descent in morals. Or a change in defining them to suit popular opinion and what is considered the better for us.

On the one hand it is a new era in understanding and exploring our freedom of thought and conscience and in the humanistic says we are in control and decide what is morally right for us, because we have newly defined our own laws of existence but when you see the impact of it showing in where it has taken us you begin to wonder... sin could be used allegorically to prove a point that we decided to master our own ways and the devices we choose to live by and thus it leaves us where we are in  a state of order heading into disorder.

As for evil, hell, heaven and sin: they definitely don't exist.  But death?  Oh yah, for sure.

Definitely?

Lol, definitely!  We are just another species on this planet trying to survive.  The definition of evil and sin depends on who you talk to.  Heaven and hell mean nothing to me.

But hey, that's just my opinion.  You think whatever you like.  It isn't something I would argue about.

Beshpin,

The vagueness of his statement does give him an "out" in certain definite interpretations, but without specifying what he means by "the quantum mechanically constructed theories", he leaves himself open to being misinterpreted.  I took him to mean the full gamut of quantum mechanically constructed theories, in which case what I said about his claim was accurate.

If he meant a specific theory, then he should have said so.  That he did not, is not my fault.

Ahhh Ok, you clarified that it's your opinion. The way you worded it originally it sounded like you were trying to purport the non-existence of those things as fact.

I am confused.  Are you saying that these things are facts?  I usually avoid that particular game because it is kind of pointless.  Once again, it is not a big deal to me, but if you claim that heaven and hell exist, then the onus is on you and not me to provide factual evidence. 

I don't care if you attempt to prove this factually or not.  I am just pointing out the basic procedure involved when one makes a claim as to the existence of something.

No, I was pointing out that you originally said these things definately do not exist. That was worded as a factual statement. If you had meant it as a factual statement, rather than an opinion, then the onus would have been on you to provide objective evidence for their non-existence.

I also don't care to prove or disprove the existence of those concepts factually. I simply challenge those people who purport as facts, things that are not factual.

That applies both to those who purport their existence as fact, and those who purport their non-existence as fact.

This is a most excellent thread! I'm not feeling sharp enough to contribute but it's very enjoyable to read. I will say, though, that I'm all for the "here's my opinion; let me try to bring you around to my way of thinking" types of discussions and debates versus the "this is fact and you are wrong" sledgehammer wars that rarely get us anywhere. So: here's to continued, reciprocal flow of opinions! *clinks wine glass against monitor* *lightly*

I think you are just looking for a fight, but you are truly barking up the wrong tree here.  It really isn't important to me.  Why you would leap on a casual statement such as the one I made is completely beyond me, but hey, if you want to get worked up about it, knock yourself out.

Having said that, you are dead wrong about the burden of proof.  If you posit a thing such as heaven or hell, then the onus is most definitely on you to prove it.

Let me say it again. Heaven and hell definitely do not exist.  If you think they do, you go for it. Someone will no doubt be interested in your arguments although it won't be me.

Well what is evil? Is it a separate thing or is it part of God? I personally think that evil exists apart from God and it is when we separate ourselves from God we allow it to enter into our hearts.

As for heaven, does it not promise eternal life? Hell is supposedly eternal also. Much the same as the theory of multiuniverses in which you state you never die? What if some of the "multiuniverses" are not all good?

I've often thought that how we walk within this "earthly world" will define how and where we will "become" within the universe upon our death. 

Jeremiah 2:5

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty?

besh, as I said, I am not looking for an argument.  My point was that death awaits us all.  That much is true.  Heaven and hell?  Nah.   That Witch guy is the one spoiling for a fight, and a pointless one in my opinion, so i am not going to take off my coat and get into.  I know a net bully when I see one.

"I know a net bully when I see one."

All this talk about evil, hell, and sin has invoked a malevolent presence that is creating chaos on this thread. 

You are conjuring up evil ghosts.  Esoteric wisdom says that eating dandelions and reading scripture passages aloud can banish them.

I think I saw that movie once.  Doesn't it have a huge scarey demon with a voice like the Cookie Monster?

No dandelions on my lawn yet, I am afraid.  Will forget-me-nots do?  :>)

The existence (or lack thereof) of an afterlife is beyond the scope of inquiry.  It cannot be verified one way or the other.  The most one can say is that there is no reason to believe that there is one.

Hi generic guy:

What, the dandelions are not blooming yet where you are? What godforsaken part of the country do you live in? No wonder you're an atheist.

You didn't make a casual statement, you made it as if it were a statement of fact. When you make a statement of fact, you are telling people who believe differently that they are wrong.

That is a big deal.

I'm dead wrong, am I?

You see this is the problem that comes of only thinking you know how a concept like "burden of proof" works. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that it means "the person who claims something exists has the burden of proof, but not the person who claims something doesn't exist".

"Burden of proof" is normally applied to the person who makes the positive statement, irregardles of the direction of that statement. If I had posited that those things "definately exist", then the burden of proof whould be oin me as the originatior. Likewise since you posited that those things "definately do not" exist, you have made a positive claim and so the burden of proof rests upon you.

That's the way "burden of proof" works.

So all you're interested is in coming here and declaring what is and what is not, but you're not interested in taking any responsibility for your claims.... OK I see.

Really?

Is ad hominem your usual way of dealing with disagreement with your claims?

Our resident Atheist, Chansen, and I seem to get along quite well. I don't think he would characterize me as a "net bully". Is it at all possible, even a smidgeon, that the problem is with you?

Would that look anything like the kind of person who comes into a forum, gets called on what could have been a poorly phrased comment, and then proceeds to try to make it about the other guy instead of simply backing up a bit?

Yeah, they show up here now and then. Some are able to accept that their opinion may not simply be accepted as "definitive" by everyone and become part of the community. Others not so much.

Welcome to WC, gg.

A retraction and clarification would have done wonders at the outset.

Hi, Synthetycist:

I wanna fancy name too,,,uh.. call me Eclecticist.

True, the energy of which you are made will never 'die'...these guys posit that you will never be 

uaware of your existance. If you fall of a cliff and die in my universe, in yours, you dont slip.

In a hundred years or so, when you begin to realize that your consciousness is eternal, you (and I) can plan on spending  the next ten thousand years or do catch up on our reading... 

Regards...

Hey dude, here is my original statement:

"As for evil, hell, heaven and sin: they definitely don't exist.  But death?  Oh yah, for sure."

That sounds like pretty casual conversation to me.  If you wanna go apeshit over that and start arguing like a fifty buck lawyer, you go right ahead.  You must not have a lot to do other than pick fights over nothing.

As for heaven and hell, as I said, if you think they exist, you go for it and make your case (not to me however because I honestly don't care). That's the way it works, bucko.  If you claim the existence of something, the burden is on you.  Someone will likely take you up on it and give you the pissing match you crave.

Hey Golden, you are that Witch guy are birds of a feather, i.e., you love to fight over nothing.  As far as I am concerned this thread is casual conversation.  You don't like my opinions? Don't worry, I have others.  Like I said to him, if you want to get your panties knotted over nothing, that's your business.  I extend the same invitation to you.  If you think heaven and hell exist, knock yourself out.  Tell someone all about it.

As for me, if you think I am going to waste my time arguing on the net about something this irrelevent, then you truly have no life.

...seven year old boy. Shot purposely from point blank range in the head.

 ... one of  many examples that convinces me  that evil and sin exist.

where is the justice for atrocities in life like the one I just mentioned?

[/quote]

Might as well ask where is God in your example?

There is a lot of ignorance in the world.

I think one of the first things that happened in the evolution of the human brain was a recognition of death...and the invention of an afterlife...THEN, in figuring out the mystery of pain the desire for property and necessity of war, invented sin.

...but we also invented the idea of justice. ..(thank you Plato. (Republic Bk II )

-------------

A profoundly disturbing question. Perhaps those who fully reallize their immortality hide in caves, fake their deaths, form Secret Societies--

Wow!

So THAT's what the 3rd degree in Masonry is all about!!!

Lotta neat-o things in that paragraph.

People who live through war realize what profound error it is (And come back with cherished memories, pride, satisfaction, and glad to have had the experience. (Strange, eh?) AND: How else can you realy hate war? (Korea, heartbreak ridge)

The Multiverse idea gives comfort in thinking/believing/knowing that the lost ones are merely aware in an alternative/parallel universe.

That would be insane. Not a rational choice. Abounding abject ignorance. In sum: wrong.

This is true and sad. These are ignorant, not evil people. They cannot but learn better as eternal existance becomes clear: self interest eventually changes behaviour --I figure it's going to take some people a few thousand years more than others before they get to the point that they can (or desire) to exist in a new dimension, or something similiarly incomprehensible to our less than fully developed brains. 

O.k., but check back with me in a coupple of hundred years, ok?

(By that time Wonder Cafe will be in 3d, and able to serve coffee...

If you are destined (doomed) to live forever, they would exist only as a purposfully contrived convenience.  

(As I believe they are now )

Thanks for making my day more pleasent.

*Clinks right back*

An interesting thought. The more I think about it the more interesting...

Evil exists in the Universe.

Wow.

An existing abstraction. OK...then the Universe is full of ignorance, in every nook and cranny (of which there are an infinite number) ---

An abstraction disguised as evil is apart from and the opposite to God. A yin and yang sort of dealie, eh?

Hah! The devil made you think this!

.... Sorry. You are serious when you say:

and it is when we separate ourselves from God we allow it to enter into our hearts.

A lovely thought which I seriously respect and admire. But which do you think comes first? I'm a knowledge is what IT is all about kind of guy, and think that perhaps God is lonely, wants companionship, and is trying hard to build something worthy of this, knowingh that it will take billions of years ,,,but He's got all the time She wants...and we are the first steps on the ladder...

One similarity: all three posit cognitive persistance. A VERY early idea of humans. YOU will only perceive one universe. That's all you get at a time. Look at the one you've got now!

(Big Letters)

Luke, Thomas:

The kingdom of God is wihin you. Take THAT Jerimiah. (What a sad sack. Mr Gloom.)

How we walk now certainly involves our advancment. and from what I hear when you post, you are going quickly forward. Forward!

Cheers!

Ah yes but at the same time it is a benevolent presence that is engendering comity (And conjouring ghosts of pleasant times of the past and future pleasure.

(I had never heard of a net bully before.  Bully for him! Meticulous in criticism he. Unscathed, so far, I.)

You announce that you have not found a reason. Are you searchiong for a reason? I think that holding such an opinion would make one more appreciative of his life day by day. A good thing. There is no reason for me to believe that your looking into this matter has been exhustive, nor do you need any reccomendations from me of opinions contrary. In Sum: Opinion noted.

.

Hey Golden, you are that Witch guy are birds of a feather, i.e., you love to fight over nothing.

[/quote]

(Raising hand) Hey, count me in!

Except for the fight, part.

And the word 'love'.

And nothing it too pruile for me to avoid a fight over. Ontologically, does 'nothing' exist?

Does mind exist apart from matter? What? Hum? Hey? .

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp. else what's a heaven for?" -Browning

Someone said : Heaven is insipid, hell is rediculous.

What ARE you going to waste your time arguing?

Great, I look forward to it!

Thanks, gg.

ah, so your statements mean nothing. Thanks for clarifying.

I wholeheartedly agree. Does that mean that no one should respond to you? I had this strange idea that conversation was more than one person declaring other opinions null and void. My mistake I guess.

hmmm. let's see now .... WonderCafe, sponsored by a church .... discussion forum, called Religion and Faith ....  I dunno gg, seems like I'm in the right place to do that. Are you suggesting this should be the hockey forum?

Considering the number and length of posts you made, that statement kinda seems like leading with your chin ..... lol

Take a deep breath and enjoy the company gg. You're not the first person who's come here to show all us nutty religion people how stupid people of faith are. No doubt you won't be the last.

Be Well

David