Forgiveness not only frees me of healing-preventing pain and frustrations, it imposes on me a resposnibility to help the person who's hurt me to heal.

Check out a friend of ours, a person we much admire… he spoke at my wife's induction here:

http://www.willsworld.com/~mvfhr/rev.htm

Simply put ----Forgiveness deals with our feelings and our attitude toward the wrongdoer ---Mercy is to do with Leniency for a  punishment due to us in accordance to justice -----

There are 2 types of forgiveness ---Human and Divine ---We humans are to forgive others when we are wronged ----if we don't forgive we are then judging the other person and we are not to judge others as we do not see the intention of the heart of the other person ---Only God knows that ---we only perceive what we think is the intention of the other person ----

Divine Forgiveness is God forgiving us ---God can hold forgiveness from us when we don't repent ---God will not tolerate sin ---He is Holy and Sinless--He is perfect and until we come to His Son we are sinners and are away from God ---

Paul warns of willfull rebellion

What if I am the wrongdoer, and a "right"doer harms me? Don't I need to forgive, Unsafe?

How do we work out which is which if apportioning blame is a prerequisite for forgiveness?

Not to accuse or judge in the first place is better than forgiving. Then there is nothing to forgive.

"Where are thine accusers?" Jesus asked to Mary Magdalene, after he said to her accusers that he who is without sin should throw the first stone, and they slunk away.

"They have gone, my Lord," she answered.

"Neither do I accuse thee," said Jesus. "Go, sin no more."

We all make mistakes. Actually, making mistakes and learning from them is a necessary part of the learning process. Sure, some mistakes are bigger than others. And, if we don't make big mistakes ourselves, we learn from the big mistakes others make. Thus, in a manner of speaking, they make these grievous mistakes for all of us, so that we may learn. For this they deserve our gratitude, love, and compassion.

We are all in this together. We are, in a manner of speaking, the body of God. Thus, even God learns by its mistakes.

Hi Arminius   your quote    Where are thine accusers?" Jesus asked to Mary Magdalene, after he said to her accusers that he who is without sin should throw the first stone, and they slunk away.

There is a big mistake ----Mary Magdalene was not that person ---SHE was not a prostitute ----Jesus healed her of 7 demons ----The woman who was caught in adultry was not named -----Just to clarify -----see John 8:4-7 --SEE BELOW

Peace

Hi Mike Peterson   your quote     

What if I am the wrongdoer, and a "right"doer harms me? Don't I need to forgive, Unsafe?

If the person is a right doer then to me that  person hasn't harmed  you -- --you say you are the wrongdoer so that says to me that the other person  is to forgive you for your wrongdoing to them ----

That is the way I see what you are saying ----

Peace

Mike

I looked at the web site. People are amazing.

I wonder if helping the offender is not a responsiblity to the offender as much as a responsibility to God in the offender. God in you reaches out to God in the other, as it were. Isn't it a responsibility we have to God in us to be Godly. The Christian does more than achieve justice or have mercy on the offender's just punishment. The Christian in forgiving redeems the lost justice, which can be lost to the victim as much as to the offender.

Thanks for the link.

Hi

Two kinds of forgiveness yes. Both are within us. We have the carnal worldly kind. But, because we have Christ in us, and because we are in Christ, we also have the Divine forgiveness. In the old testament, people do not forgive people. Only God forgives people.

This is something Christ brought to the fore ... and it is not in any of the other old religions. People can forgive people and in so doing the are doing so as Christ. Christ forgives through our forgiving and in this way, we participate in God's goodness.

John 21-23 (NIV) "Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Forgiving goes past feelings and attitudes (if you mean the carnal things). Forgiving extents into existence itself. I think you alter reality when you forgive.

Well so it seems to me...

regards

I would suggest that "apportioning blame" ends with mercy. That is the point of mercy. So, it is not just leniency, it is letting go.

Several of the other old religions make a lot of this letting go, in order to benefit oneself and others (e.g. Buddhism and Zen, Hindu, Confucianism if its counted a religion).

Forgiveness goes further... it lets go, then allows for the rebirthing of justice --- a new start of new life. Forgiveness redeems, it does not just let go. So, I think, forgiveness is special... and it seems it peculiar to Christ....

regards

Hi Aldo: Walt Everett is a wonderful guy. He and his wife, Nancy, have been leading activists against the death penalty in the U.S. 

Forgiveness is not THAT hard… it's as you say, recognising "god" in the realtionship. And it's about letting go, "into god". "Bad" things that happen to us, once we look back from having moved on, usually give us something of lasting value, sometimes a whole new sense of freedom.

Arminius

Can existence itself accuse?

Some folks have thought it was existence itself that was the source of the despair arising from offending or violating others...

If so, larger things come into play than just us as 'us'. And, yet we have a vital role to play in the universe unfolding.

What you think?

Can existence itself accuse?

This is the non-existential connection between subjective and objective perspectives without verb-Oz iðee ... the power of word ... just a myth to many real people that hate words and verbosity ...

Some escape this by taking word literally instead of as a literal de vice ... the powerful squeeze when caught between two polities! One does have to walk that line in the "san" ... gives an outside perspective---Heiseinberg!

To escape this medium some say you're against us or for us ... you can't walk Christ's Line ... it's too encompassing and modern Christians are too shunning and isolationist in perspective from out'a 'ere

Yes, unsafe, you are right. Thanks.

Hi Aldo:

To me and my overly simplistic thinking, ultimate reality is nondualistic, and accuser and accused are one, as are creator and created. The person we accuse is united with us in the body of God.

In the nondualistic reality, when we offend or violate others, then we offend our own godly self. The realization or experience of universal unity and unitive love precludes us intentionally hurting one another. When we look at everyone and everthing with the ecstatic feeling of "Thou art I!" or "Thou art God!", then we love our neighbour as ourself simply because our neighbour is our godly self. Then we are not likely to accuse each other or hurt each other.

When there is no accuser, then there is no judge and no need to forgive.

To me, the offended is his or her own offender. I simply refrain from offending myself, so there is no need to accuse and judge and forgive. The simple life of a simpleton, eh?

Arminius

If I have understood one of Mike's points earlier, when someone offends me, I may have a role to play in redeeming that person from his offense. Left alone, the situation may not resolve itself. What do you think Mike?

In the end, the only good in the world is the good we personally put there, I think. Should I concern myself with the situation othets are in?

regards

Such is what happens when we tend to refuse to face past errors as Urs ... the other side of sole as a Dark MIR ... onyx, or just ON' ich'd ... as chi wished to get into the eve or fringe of night ... an explicit alchemii! Une requiem? Perhaps just unre quieted as thought un required, the neglegence of such causing some nervous titters about something being left out ... such is the nature of outside soul or externalized psyche as incomplete or part of your imagination as you fantasy ID stuffed!

Sometimes the other side is just dying for it when you have no care for it atoll ... imagine yourself in that other la goon state ... as Barabara Kingsolver wrote Laguna state when at least one could only see muons ... a'rye donkey as a nass Tiye thing of har ass ment with 2 cheeks or 3 heads've team ... a mind of chaos? It's how we're born 'ere ... if you can bier the tho'T!

Well, we create the situation others are in. And it is we who are responsible for our creations.

Let me re-phrase this: We conceptualize the situation others are in, and we are responsible for our conceptualizations.

When we see a scoundrel out there, then we are the ones who made him a scoundrel, not he. He did not get up in the morning deciding that he'll be a real scoundrel today. When someone disappoints us, then we have created our expecations of him, not he, and we are disappointing our self-created expectations.

Above all, we are all in this together. The situation others are in is the situation we are in.

And that is a hairy situation given the thin connections we observe with others as a humanity based on isolationism! There are great powers like judy'n sorts that are not so jew-sed' as bo'chi and phi-orde types. They comprise a secondary or beta subtle layer below the horizon of the superficial where one finds under-standing-ETs (an abberration of ITs). You can create anything with word appropriately applied to a receptive sol' ... sort of Seminol in nature, or Semite!

That's humanity ... a thing of error as compared to the dual outlook (coming and going) that powerful humans say is evil for they don't wish you to see anything but them (excepting their errors in the larger image) ... and the divided portion as divine is forgiving espectially when they see the only way out as a light at the end of an odd tunnel of oppression! It is enough to blow the mind of emotions so partial thoughts set in ... as a mental construct. Is humanity generally oppresive to the less endowed with riches? Nos Hite ...

Many say (especially religious views) that  the soul should be set aside (saved) a process that is not very utilitarian! Kinda initiatesthoughts ... like being physically born ... there's more to it when the lights come on in the blind emotional sort ... and they become a thoughtful lover instead of just following the blind core (heartland.com)! This is de deuced ethereally beyond the isles and ranges of stoics, that find it difficult to grow and evolve into something else ... why a greatersoul, huge intellect is still out there by definition --- Sam Johnson (an outlier, this may be beyond you if you didn't open his tome for the high definition of intellect; Sam knew his word, sort of like understanding gods and their integral). Atleast you can see how IT/ET goes on ...

we create 'realities' in varoius ways.... we create words... we act... we intuit...(utuit) ....in all this we create meaning, significance and purpose --- all given over to creation. Being Christian is something we can offer to eternity. So many, do it so well. That is what I see

I think as much as we may be able to forgive ourselves and others, there is still a mess that has to be cleaned up. Forgiveness offers ourselves and others this opportunity IMO. . 

Hi Waterfall If I understand, I agree. Mercy, as letting go, is the preparation. Forgiveness ignites Righteousness and/or Justice. These are things we do.When I am forgiven, I can authentically participate in the restoration or redemption of justice ... that is in cleaning the mess and setting things right to affirm existing..

Then those that intellectually forgive shall be buried by those that are totally emotional ... is there an intermediary state of mind to mediate upon judy'n forces? (this was once spelt as judah'n ... and then altered as the word evolved) Many do not have faith in this liberation of word as hinted in Micah 7:9 ... Lib Ur-tiye ... the connective word! Such in a thin and lithe graphic connection to many as IT is laid out for them, it is often denied as living ... by those that think the thought is fixed, or stoic! You know what thought thought ... it moved!

Is that just out of-'ere or what? Then Webster defined intellect as all that is beyond (myth) the emotional ... get out of here; that can't be so ... can IT? Or is the Ka Nite .. the spirit of the darkness when you loose it in passion? This was "kahn" in old languages that meant you were right inn IT ... sort of like abby or abbá ... the stucture you're in until out of it ... the holy Eire-eM or harem for density, or compaction. Is there anything denser that mire earth ... irony as pyritic manner? If you don't rest on eL-auras of your mind ... you'll never come to IT! L'aura's the Circe that later became a round tuit as intuited! Eventually you'll come round to it ... whipped up cognizance?

Could this be why some people experience OBI's when their brain is turned off by some outside force? There are some weird talles about this ... that are upstanding like ET, that uterine/uttering in some states ... be the death of me is the whisper you hear just before sects are broke off and go hommoe! Could this be realative or just alchemis? Once you get your head into-IT some stir is created ... as Cos Moe Logical bend---Einstein on gravity and light ... how angels bend in the night with headless hoers mons ... 

Did you know that a'mons is an old expression for a man without soul? Guess how he lost IT (foresight) pas'n the knight Inn will do it both ways ... but as Paul Harvey says sometimes the other side is unseen ... a biblical mystery about what's below the visible ho-eris Zone ... why creation gave us Allegory ... so you could bust a gutte in the sad state we're in ... gravidly captive ... at least until you're out of 'ere ... fringe benny phtttzz?

That's the WORD for you as it flies ... some say darkly as they can't see it in abstraction ...

Tribalism is the problem.

The rest no comprendo

(Which I now understand is a problem for neither of us       )

And a happy one to you too John ... :-}

Hi

The Word of God proceeds from the mouth of God, in proceeding the infinite and eternal Christ exists in created existence --- the created existing caught infinitely and eternally. The Christ reality exists in human terms, we can relate to God within those terms. The human terms include mind, spirit and heart (including emotions). All aspects of us are delineated in the reality of God in human terms. Existing through that reality is existing spiritually, from and of God.

I think we can come to see, hear and understand Christ within out inner most existence. When we do, we 'put on' Christ perceptively, emotively, cognitively, intuitively through our being and acting of and from that Christ reality.

We do this personally. Others do too. So we can come together in community to better see, hear and understand. So also, we can come together in community with the writers of scriptures to better see, hear and understand.

In the end, God affirms our existing and through such being we most clearly see, hear and understand God in created existence.

This is Light. The Light shines and while our temporal lives may be overcome (e.g. the cross), spiritually the dark cannot overcome us. It is this Light that lets us accept others with forbearance... as Christ accepted them and us despite Calvary.

Not sure if that responds to your thoughts...

in any case, life is joyful isn't it?