..... interesting and to me curious....

Spiritual formation is all about becoming increasingly aware of God's activities, and then seeking a deeper relationship with Him in order to align one's own desires, character, and will with those of God. It is wonderful, and in my thinking occurs post being born again.

Jae I thought you were a literalist ... in literary nature you are allowed to take the device out of context though for comparison ... once beyond it is as black and white with grey matter as stirred! This is primal conjecture of the conjugation ... a mire metaphor of things as they were with becoming consequence.

Does not God's word direct you not to think ... the tree of knowing and wisdom being bad and unreachable? Even Proverbs 1:8 tells you knowledge will make you sad ... and such emotions can leave you stupified of how we're sucked into unknown things ... and told not to question nothing none-the-less!

I think I've converted into a lowly viper with tongue in the Golden Cheek ... two isolated soles? Allows upright balance ... Sophie on the point as sentient ...

Wouldn't that drive an anti-ephemeral spirit down the isles ... into the gravid caldera regions where you'll be sucked in as reciprocal reaction and copied ... more daemons! Webster defines these as offspring of secondary gods ... the other part that didn't know what was going on in the exchange ... a type of intercourse ... like shared intelligence that was unknown to begin with ... classic types believed we shouldn't know the consequences ... as in the delivery the secondary þ'eta would call the other awful names ... the effect of combined sects as fused ... let the gammas begin ... they tend to be thrilled at the arrival ... as they told the children eventually thy'd scro' up and thus ET-Hicks!

This is beyond the Moor-aLs ... outstandingly so ...

Hi Jae

Do you think that awareness of spiritual formation is different from the formation itself? Some people may have being forming for a very long time, in ways they did not see before becoming aware of their growth into awareness.

I suggested that demons can be aware of God; they can also act in Godly ways, for example on stage or in a movie. A good actor can do the part without becoming.

I fully agree with you spiritual formation needs to sought after. Something within us calls to us. We hear and see, then go seeking. But, how do we seek? When power is lost in a church building, how do we seek out the issue? Some may do so randomly, but experience teaches and those who pursue knowledge and experience come to know what to do, when to do it, where to do it, how to do it... indeed some may even come to know why to do it. Such knowledge from experience of doing what actually works in reality. Our communities of full of wannabe apprentices top the Christian 'trade' ... but so few masters these days, and so much of the art being forgotten I think. (I am not speaking of theology or philosophy, or social contracts or civic duty, etc.)

The Greek from which some translate born again, can also be expressed as born from above... which given the context seems to be a better rendition. Personally, I like to concept, much in use these days, of formation. On the other hand, the idea of being born again, does imply a second birth, not necessarily a metamorphoses or transformation.

Do you think the spiritual birth happens all at once? Are we born at spiritual conception; when we are spiritually delivered into this world; when we can talk spiritually, is there a spiritual maturation (and is this the birth); are we fully born spiritually at temporal death?

(Curious tangent, makes me wonder when was Christ born?)

I agree with all you have said, it is good. 

By the way, I note that preaching the Gospel in the streets has worked well for thousands of years... these days the problem may lie in what happens afterwards...

regards

Just curious....

If I may join into your querry for Jae... Does scripture say I should not think or that Adam should not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.... I think I am good to go....

John 3 is interesting to me because Nicodemous can't make sense of what Christ is referring to when Christ speaks about spiritual life. Perhaps this was a wartershed pronouncement...

In the passage, the message is about birth --- life. Its about being, existing or in practical terms doing. I did not catch reference to knowing, or rules/laws. There is reference to seeing or knowledge --- after the 'birthing'.

It is also made clear that whatever emerges from being from above does not derive from 'this world'. A different formation... different game parameters. Not just different rules, but different kinds rules.... We should not be surprised that the morals of one does not rise up to the morals of the other...

regards 

This allows separation of the two ... abba'd divinity? Thus at least until they learn to gather what's scattered ... them be the thoughts I think ... but how would I know under the roué's we're held to by the pious ... who believe sects should be a painful metaphor?

Such alternate doctering could lead to other ends ... then NEJM stated at one time that the 3rd order cause of death to humans, next to cancer and heart dis eaze was medical treatment ot hold peole here ... but it failed! So should one be cautious about what you try to FIX in the unravelling of allegory?

Such insubstantial things allow the psyche to rest for a bit ... and knowing fades ... just looka t how the west has lost the struggle for strategic manufacturing ... we can't even get a computer or coffee maker that works well and is durable. If you can't do these things manually you be scro'wed as many sects are finding themselves ... afixed to a sinking ship ... only the gnoe win creature escape ... types of primal rumi nantz (sometimes writ as "nans" as in some traditions tz=s, or c and thus Cars and Tzars evolve into cars motive extremes ... as sociological dilemma). Goph eg Ur! Intellectual chaos as we flush ourselves down the tubes ...

THE END as a grave ID's Torah ... that goest on and on as bones ... fertilizer? Cranks the abstract side ...

Hi Aldo-- You posted--

It is also made clear that whatever emerges from being from above does not derive from 'this world'. A different formation... different game parameters. Not just different rules, but different kinds rules.... We should not be surprised that the morals of one does not rise up to the morals of the other...

________________________________

Airclean-- If I read you right . I believe what you have posted to be true.--To dust you were to dust you shell return Book Gen. Also  John 6:-63 The flesh is of no avail.

God Bless--airclean33

Oh the things unseen in, on, through, beneath and beyond the flesh ... physical reality just couldn't accept the gift of soul ... a curse of a thing to be completed, cultivated, filled out for a later feast by a greater soul ... gross to those that would hate to sacrifice their thoughts for a ß'eta idée ...

Thus as CS Lewis stated .. on E-goes ... but if you don't understand "E" as chi will you miss the unknown archetype ... the mother of gods in the Shadow; du bi us? Leads to the twinning and the filling out of reflection ... sort of like an echo or Ego of awareness needing balanced care ... sort of like comparing the Hebrew Lameth to the Capital greek Lambda ... a warping process at least ... something to hammer around to check for maelabilty or flexability so it'll flow in a heavenly state ... divine wadis? Comes across Classically as a vale or Veil Rift ... val caries ... the fabric of night has holes too ... allows fecundity to fall upon us ... like a sparrow in a stable ... boy, did you miss that metaphor?

Good one if you can stand wormy things ... like Hebrewing across the arid place ... a wilderness without words?

airclean

yes... dust to dust. There is no significance, meaning or purpose in dust as dust.

But, all that we are spiritually is form in dust and is housed in dust. So dust matters, though in itself it does not. It is the spirit housed in the dust that matters.

Scripture indeed affirms. But, we actually know it first hand from our living. The truth is before us. It is in the reality of God and we engage with it immediately, without intermediaries. The truth is not in the text, it is before us in reality. The text serves tpo affirm it, once we have it through spiritual life.

Without dust there can be no salvation or holiness. These are formed and exist in dust, through Christ. The window of access to salvation and holiness is the window of dust. So again, I think dust is important for we live through it though not of it.

An other point of discussion, some people encounter dusty lives without significance, meaning or purpose and it terrifies them They flee into the arms of religion hoping to have their dusty lives resurrected to endure in dusty ways forever. The spirit must form while we walk in dust, so that when the dust is returned something remains apart from the dust.

It can get convoluted I suppose... but the gospel is simple: "Follow me." The rest workls itself out in the following I notice....

regards

WaterBouy

One existence: one person. Formed of flesh - formed of spirit. Doesn't have to align or be atoned. I do not recall folks saying the flesh shapes the spirit. But, the spirit can shape the flesh in the one person in the one person's existence. At least the outcomes are different depending on what does the shaping.

Experience will inform the way ahead, I expect....

regards

Some say life is a pain ... an isolation of pathos ... so one will learn what it is to be alone in everything ... the god head ...

Some say love is a headless apparition, or so ID appears as a primal source ... gotta make a lump of clay think ... now if that was all lumped would that be ecclesiastic form? This could apply to the outside story of the last verse of the Gospel of John when all sense of theis Toarah was squeezed ... and thus the word is out ... a pure wave form like unseen thought ... because people desired not to see, or even hear of it ... 3 mon-Qui rule ... so it goes on ... the monkeying with the soul ... which is just a din of word.

One po' isolated soul must make sense of the devilish thing ... put it to individual order ... thus defining a'priori Job! Kant called this catagorical ... takes a tolle on the non emotional sorts at rest reading intuit! trying to amke something out of the abstract form in cryptic words ... King James hated such things ... he said hebrew was a tool of the devil. You know what authoritarian expressions do to the following pool without inquistitiveness?

No question asked and the gods representative of the time were happy with that ...

WaterBouy

I used to be inclined to solipsism, but I determined being aware of existence before being aware of self, then becoming aware of self = two. One is not alone then, but one can know God and onself.

I have found knowledge not in abstraction, but in acting or existing. Here I mean little everyday things in everyday relationship with everyday people. Its a learning by doing approach, that benefits me and benefits others.
We are formed on being Christlike with one another

ALDO,

In order to be aware of this one would have to have knowledge or wisdom ... and from the book of wisdom this appears to come in dark form ... a bit of allegory when compared to 1 Corinthians 13:4,7,8 ... for can you see love unless a wee light is thrown on the situation?

Some say that part of the psyche is shy and runs in abstract to hide what's real ... yet in the esence of the bicameral mind ... this is like the eye of the camel ... where everything behind the stubborn thing remains dark as the camera obscura ... whereas knowledge is an obscure dilema for humans that have difficulty with equality, fraternity and liberty ... but in indifference they distribute it poorly and say otherwise ...

Such aspects humur powers beyond us and mortals just can't accept larger powers that are measured in differing measures like metaphysics ... a round about delema for those rushing straight out to do when a rest for mediation is good too! The realm of the middle earth ... the mire where thoughts were obliterated in the fall from heaven ... nothing left but sparkies ... like di emanation of big words ... nondestructive action so you can understand smaller things firts ... like where did let Eyres come from ... or what's an Eire ... we just don't know ... living in the land of emotions obliterated that concept ... thus we lost IT!

If understanding is lost, toss around the pain of loss ... suffering words need a lift to ... so let eM fly ... allows you to fit into the realm of emotional devoid ... by getting rid of intelligence for a bit.

Few will believe this though as it appears as processed thought ... just man Ur ... like many people feel about words ... just crap ... and God as word gets no more understanding and respect than a danger field ... where thoughts are oppressed by dark humurs ... satires?

It is a way to get them through the unconscious sects ...

Hi WaterBuoy-- It's nice to see you post were we can understand.

Hi Aldo:

If simply being—existing—is being in and of God, then "born again" is nothing more or less than becoming aware of what we innately and ultimately are. Then, as you once said, neither prayer nor meditation nor mystical experience is neccessary. Then just existing, just being (what we ultimately are) is all that is needed. Or, if experiencing God or being at-one with God is mystical experience, then pure existence is mystical experience.

To me, the best defintion of God is the "I AM" from the book of Genesis. Deceptively simply but profoundly true.

Be still and know God.

Be still and know.

Be still.

Be.

~ ~ ~

lots of "I am" in John's Gospel where I think we are also invited to be...

perhaps I am inclined to a conclusion that there are diverse mystical experiences, and that they do not all generate the same result. There is a unity that is infinite: but there is also infinite diversity...
I exist... but I exist in many ways...I recognize material/ carnal existing; I also prima facia recognize spirtual existing... they are not the same. i favour the latter based on experience and experiment...
different birth...different life different existence

I am attempting this quote thing...

WaterBouy

When I was small I rode a tricycle and I had knowledge of riding it. I knew I rode it as I rode it. Yet, I had neither knowledge or wisdom of riding a tricycle. My awareness/knowledge (perhaps intuitive) was in actually riding the tricycle. Don't need the book of wisdom; wisdom is in actually living everyday life in everyday ways.

Regarding 1 Corinthians.... in response to how can we know darkness, Spinoza said 'Light lights itself and the dark'. I agree and find that Love lights itself and the dark within us and within our world, as it actualizes itself in our existing through the reality of Christ.

Light and Love of God comes to us through people (with all their shortfalls) but Light nad Love are not the people themselves. While people fail short and fail, Love is a reality that does not fall short and it does not fail. This is its power to generate spiritual life in us, how limited we are and however limited our manifestation or expression of that love is in our existing.

In spiritual living, perspective's composition is (first) God, then people. The knowledge comes with the territory as it were...

Air Clean said:

"

It's perhaps not my fault AirClean ... you might have initiated the awakening program as initiated by "the Don" regarding subtle myths that go misundertood by the pious. Emm'r stuck ...

Ho's the Don? That be the subtle inner "i" you can see it as a sparkles within the eye of people becoming aware instead of "just being" as created. Now is that vacant or just a sign of not knowing ... innocence in the words of some courts that will not abide with a verdict of a crime of passion ... when they were provided with the resources of gaining wisdom and didn't use em for pious reasons? This is rationale ... sometimes expressed in trees. Sometimes the Golden Asses need a poke or Tue ...

Ever heard of a tree of logic, or a floe chart? They are as old as the hills but not often seen ...

You just gotta question some things as observed just being ... when they weren't ... sometimes their unconscious side was workiing hard! This is a mire abstract to those that don't believe in Descartean Spatial dimensions that paralleled Dante's: "the mind has it's own place"! It can be heaven of 'eLLe in a flip of the din Eire'n toss caused by a hope to win ... it is just the fall of Koine or what's commonly known as the John targeted by larger soul ... the devil wins in the end and you see things you didn't wish to!

I trust it doesn't make you feel too rotten ... thoughts that are growing ... as they take flight among the harder burning angels ... bright shinning things to plaewith! Sometimes they sparkle in onyx, anthracite and in vitrious humours ... when you get that cutting loook from the ß' idée's who didn't want you to look at them that way ... an old biblical comment about people knowing this one and that one. It may have been a metaphor about mental constructs! Then if the mental part was shelved and saved for alter ... suffer hermeneutics, latent wisdom? An alien thing for thsoe that didn't wish to know ...

"Light and Love of God comes to us through people (with all their shortfalls) but Light and Love are not the people themselves.---ALDO!

Isn't it wonderful to experience that inner twinkle in the darkness where so much is hidden in the jinns of the DNA sometimes called gynes as spiritually unknown (dark) alternates? It can be a huge emotional manifestation when exploding and not very humble! perhaps such structure need a jab or probe ... like poking a Pi Guss? This may be derived from the cosseted thing whereas the gamma in Greek had not offereing in tranmutation but the "c" ... thus there was that dark Zea overhead overladen the Isis underneath and a cool crossing of thoughts over a disturbed under flow ... sometimes known as ebb ION in weaving ... the human webb thus goees on underneath the Isis containing the pyres ... and also peaking experiiences, also denied (as bad) but that's not so good as a lye about passions!

Then other people are seen as part of this structure as so much "in common" as sacrificed by "Johns" in the past as surrounded by dark essences that suck up de Light. Patriarches of the church didn't like common people to know this potential ... could diminish the powers of unsharing Shamons ... somebody even said a lass caught out in the fields collecting medici-mal herbs could be burnt at the stake for learning such natural things that male Shamans declared the doman or the entiled and fixed. It was said they were celibate but that often is proven wrong by hysterical history even said to be writ by the winners but usually by clerics and clerks as the officals often were illiterate as King James ... yet still some numinous characters will say King James spoke the word of Jesus and God.

Does it seem to appear that life is much built on lies? These lies are best enjoyed when not being just working all the time ... and thsu the hebrew desired the wilderness ... so they could luce theirselves a bit ... they thus popagated profusely ... sometimes as alliterations, or other literary device allowig humour in deviancy ...

Much truth lies in the perspective ... a multiple perspective is ignored by many hard and stele-eire powers that some would liken to phalix ... a commonly mispelt cussed thing? Thus proving that the human race is in a rush to prove innocence or ignorance of everything ... leading to ends of mediums ... and people thus rarely process wisdom and thought thus diminishes! If that's what you desire ... I am a contrary person living with a bible that contains great conflicts like a Jesus that says if you don't love the father and mother you're not with him ... followed by if you don't hate your parents your not with Him. Does this define much mixed feelings and why we'r generally out of it when attempting to follow the book litertally when it is not meant to be taken that way so you get some experience in the realm of proto neigh IHC beings and the cultivation thereof?

That is a metaphoric teaching as a rab ID down theh ole thing ... that classic vortex ... you see it as a sloe Jinn at night ... that sucks up your mental processes ... or down if you chose to be depressed about learning.

I'am told I should be challenged on my thoughts ... but doesn't that prove the point of being metalluy challenged and knowing how little thought is in the emotional field we call inhumane? This is how creation kahn' dite ... emotional words so they wouldn't foul the greater ego ... a superlative thing as compared to the olternate that doesn't know up from down in the mind. They haven't been placed well yet for that discernment in the quantum ... thsi is an odd thing that as alien sacares the confined ... thus terrorizing the earth with unknown expressions ... we are our own worst enemy when anti social, un equal, and unappreciative of humble things in an emotional whorl ... gives something for the excluded to despise ... the choosen can't see this perspective as being otherwise eliminated! This is the separated or divined, abba'd state we have to pass through to find an enlightened peace, or piece ... that could be the discovery of a larger wisdom than we've accumulated to this point that is painful to say least!

Moving the discussion concerning spiritual formation forward. It is an important discussion that UCCan may be ready to have if approached with good intention and intensive listening to one another... I think.

It is important for us to keep in mind that space and time have been turned into abstractions by people/scientists working in the areas of sensory perception (some philosophers), cognition and emotions. If, when growing up, what we thought was reality, i.e.  things in space and time, is merely abstraction then what devil is real? This is important because spiritual things while played out in temporal space (place) and time, are infinite and eternal truths of God. We are born from above, according to Christ in John's Gospel, from and of spiritual things not material/(of the flesh) things.

While the 'wind' listeth where it wills and we know not where it comes from or where it goes, it all the same leaves traces or evidence of its presence and workings. Moreover, we can fashion wind experiments and acquire a knowledge of the wind. Once we have knowledge of it, we can even use wind methods to support us in our living, . But, knowldge and use are not the same as existing through the wind, and not the same as being caried forward by the wind: these things are work of God's promised grace within us. We can have faith in the promise because we directly experience and  know the wind blowing within us and we see the effect of the wind blowing in others.

I expect it takes more discipline and strength of mind than I have have on my own to fathom these things. Hence the call for evangelism, the need for attendance in congregation ... if we take this thing about the Spirit as serious living and being or existing....

So it seems to me....

If you bring an unknown deviation from church polity will that stir an inderminate in the Pew?

Amazing what you can create as conjecture to get things to stop and not be so emotional and thus de fogging the whole cussed issue as condensing or rendering water out out of myth terre-is! Excuse the lis pit was intentional in the cut ... tis the nature of word working in hard spots to be in ... a'mon's tolle (his head) ... and ARM and I RIPP'eL in humis ... a bloody rabid spirit of laughter ... oppressed in the stink of life in the pews ... one should take your kristianity out for a walk ... eire the dogma ... it might learn of alternate expressions of mental cases ... psychic containments?

Is that whistling Di Xea or just Tamiyr in the trees ... she cast shadows on Juda' when heh was caught there  in spatial times with Ur ... resulted in alien conjurations ... and limited judgements ...