Yes, Aldo. 

I can only agree with your question. It's a good question and, yes, we all shape our own ways of seeing (or cop out and let others do it for us). Values, culture and faith all have play in it.

Mike

There is indeed a lot of intentionality in how we form. Personal projects differ. What I discern in the very user-friendly method I briefly outlined, is a means of having a pool of experience which serves to allow us to choose a direction based on experience of reality that 'works'. If it does work, and if it is real, then its a choice to live by. The approach is known by its fruits...

Of those who I have come to know who were so formed --- I found them to be as I wish to be.

regards

A parable about the strange neighbor

A rich man saw his neighbor, also a rich man, lying in a ditch.

“What are you doing?” he asked.

“I am enjoying the beauty of this ditch with its blue and white and yellow and pink flowers, the bees feeding and the birds overhead,” said the man’s neighbor.

“But you employ an excellent gardener and you have marvelous gardens.”

“Last year at this time, I went to my estate and the flower beds were all bare. The soil was dark and rich, raked and weedless, so I asked the gardener where the flowers were. He said I had not told him what flowers to plant. ‘I like yellow flowers,’ I told him. ‘What kind?’ Big ones, I said. “Would sunflowers do?” he asked. Sure, sunflowers. “Would those be the tall ones or the low ones?” he wanted to know. “Both,” I said, “some here, some there.”

"But it is too late to plant sunflowers this year," he told me.

"I know nothing about flowers. So this year, I am enjoying this ditch with its blue and white and yellow and pink flowers, the bees feeding and the birds overhead.”

A poor man later came along and saw two rich men lying side-by-side in the ditch. Like the rich man and his neighbor, he too knew nothing about flowers. “There must be some treasure there,” he thought as he walked by,

“I will look for it tomorrow when they have gone.” But he found nothing.

Hi Aldo...

I have read and appreciated your example of how we may do things in Christ. Seeing is a good place to start as it seems to lead to doing.

Some years past I lived in community with crack addicted survival sex workers. These were seen by many as a bothersome presence to be driven away and kept out of sight. I saw each of them as a son or daughter of some parents or parent somewhere. Further, I saw the image of God in each. By this seeing, I worked among them as a supportive and encourageing presence. Seeing them in this way, and being with them in this way, led to me being identified with them in the seeing of many. Sad to say, many calling on the name of Christ see such persons as undesirable and unwelcome.

George

Hi Geo: have you read Pastorix? It's a wonderful, fun and inspiring book about that sort of ministry… I think you'd enjoy it.

Happy New Year!

Mike

Good parable,,,

It seems to say life is about what is given. We have only to appreciate what there is. If we do not appreciate what is given, then we will have nothing.

I am reminded of Christ's teachings about the lilies of the field and the sparrows...

When what is given is good that works well... When what is given is not so 'good' that does not work as well. When we concern ourselves with ultimate significance and meaning, I think we acquire it through our existing, that is existing: actively being. Personal significance is not given, we create it through the 'power within from God'. If we do not create it, there will be no personal significance. (Flowers carry their own significance within themselves...)

I was most interested in the gardener. Here is someone who had knowledge and skill and could use that knowledge and skill to create. Having participated in creating life, he would also have the depth to appreciate the significance and value of the flowers and bees in themselves in existence, and in his own existence. He has the capacity to shelter and protect. He can collect seeds and earth, and create the flowers or bring them and their lives into fruition, in God's existing and even in his own personal existing....

It is not merely that he has knowledge and skill, but that he used these and became and now is existing as a gardener who is part of the process of life, and perhaps more than an active observer.

I would want the latter for my children and grandchildren in their temporal and eternal existing...

All this brings me back to my 'ever so user-friendly' example of putting on Christ's eyes... the gardener put on gardener's eyes (which neither the rich men or the poor used) and comes to live in a whole other reality, through what he was able to see, do and be, by God's grace.

Thanks for parable

It easy to go about looking for all the wrong things, then get pissed off when we don't get them. "Entitlement" is self destruction; self-formation is what makes the difference.

This is where scripture can help us… learning to be discerning.

Scripture's NOT history (it's stories about truth, not triuth itself: truth only happens when we become it) and it's not infalliible (it doesn't work the same way for all of us; listening, though, we can learn… but learning is unique to the learner).

When we start seeing discerningly (looking for the right things) every moment is magical and our journey is endless. At that point we become manifestations of god's will… goodness.

The "kingdom" is pure goodness in us. Goodness is god's.

By the way, the gardener: as I see him, he represents all knowledge (information) and skill, and without some clear call, it yields nothing. Too often, our practitioners of knowledge are bound up in service to the funders of their reserch… corporations and governments whose calls are simply short-sighted and self interested (like the poor man who finds nothing).

God? God is the "other" gardener… the one behind the glories of the ditch.

Happy New Year!

Such is a satyrical myth created for those that didn't wish to know ... they can accept it super facially (superficial?). There's always that other cheek ...

Sort of like seeing something in the dark due to your own source of enlightenment whatever that might be ... like seeing an isolated understanding in word as God ... a myth of base of a soul one just can't hate as it is our social disturbance that has corrupted it with inflated vanity ... that can't believe an array of words can be used like god to construct a mythical mind ... that few can see any use for. The Roué-eM-Ann's thought varied thoughts dangerous ... buteverychild has a predisposition to play with fire ... or we wouldn't have any demo crazy atoll. This is a small thing a mere smear in everything to republicans ... where some of us were sent as moles ...

This assists in determining where a personality comes from ... albeit weird to people that do not believe in mental dissonance a the social factor causing mental disruptions that affect the entire thing ... and god gets a bit violent about IT! That's ideal-ism for yah when you know IT'll alter when looked upon with some added data ...

Many of the descendants of entitlements don't believe such chit ... and thus why things are the way they arn't in a hopeful and imaginary state when you become resident of there ... just beyond the present definition that hazy! KISS priciple supports that dreamy state of miss'ð understanding! If you get the meaning of "eshe" and "ethe" ... they are similar to "c" a belittles light of understanding everything in a world surrounded by darkness! You do know where wisdom resides? On the farce-ID ... as the mind will not absorb anything without a giggle ... sort of like RIFT in alien dimensions! How does one know this crap? One has to be a drifter ... a wandering power like well jewç-ID with word as a primal icon, or Semite in an anti-Semite-IHC realm that doesn't know their signs ... end time as catological behaviour! You did know that "e" sometimes substitutes with "a" if the issue is to be confusing or as chaotic as life is? It is in the bible as duplicity in 2 Kings 2:9 and else where in the references about vows that shouldn't be made by people who don't know what they believe they do ... such is beyond them as myth of intellect to a desireous beast-ie in blue ß'eté ... ho-eL come to you in a bit if called upon to fill spaces so you can live devoid of information ... considered a deficiency to an elite group of underlings!

Can you now see how the daemons look up? With great doubts ... A'Su knows ...

Hi George

I have been puzzled for years that we do not seem to use this approach of "putting on" Christ in developing children or in our youth work. I expect it would be revealing for them and open doors that might otherwise never be opened.

You example is good. We look at street people and we see them as they are in terms of this world. We can put on the "eyes of Christ" and see them in a different "Light" or reality. When we do it changes everything doesn't it.

There are several kinds of "putting on" the eyes of Christ. We can put them to just see what is there, go exploring a different world, as it were. This does not require belief or faith. We can also put them on in order ascertain what is happening to assess what we should do in response, if we ant to do as Christ would do. This, also does not require belief or faith. In your example, one might decide this is how to best live our lives and to best relate to others. We can adopt a Christian ethic without being Christian.

This is very powerful stuff, because it means we can ask others (who may be more knowledgeable, skilled or talented than us, to help us discern the Christ-specific that we may want to make use of) to assist us in our personal quests.

There is an other kind of "putting on" the eyes Christ that is formational. It happens in the waters of belief and faith. We see from our inner most being and respond from our inner most being (where God is housed in us). This forms our spiritual existing and existence: we come alive spiritually and live spiritually, in putting on Christ. In this case, the benefits experienced by others (the worker you encountered, for example) are consequential. The real beneficiary ii the temporal person who has put on Christ, by means of which the personal is personally formed into a spiritual creature, experiencing a different 'heavenly' creation. This experience tells me, I become Christian for my own self and it is the best for me. In the process, those I look at through the eyes of Christ will have a relation with me that is much more than could have been in merely temporal terms. My salvation serves me first, then others. It is odd that I find my salvation in serving others, as Christ served others before me.

Well, isn't that a lot of verbiage... I regret communication is not my  strong suit,

regards

Those people on the street often have more Christ wisdom, intuitively, than we, who live more sheltered lives, do. I do not see myself as superior by trying to help them. They're superior to me. They perservere through pain I haven't known first hand, so profoundly. I just want to make their life in the here and now a little less painful, a little more hopeful, if I can.


I'll never forget the homeless man, who popped out from nowhere, near the alley dumpster, and offered me a hand as I was having difficulty walking on the snowey slippery pavement. I was contemplating my next step carefully, feeling insecure of my balance, afraid to go forward, afraid to go back, but doggedly independent, and he appeared to cheerfully offer me his arm and walk me to the corner. I paid for his coffee and small breakfast at McDonald's, but he did much more for me that day.

WaterBouy

There are myths and there are myths. Perhaps it all about com-eu-naki-ting...

In Greek drama the actors wore masks. There was an opening where the mouth would be. the voice would come through that hole. The character was the sound through the opening. The Romans developed the concept through their word per sonnae (if I have the spelling right) -- per=through; sonnae=sounds. Today, we recognize the word person derived from that history.

A person is the sound made. All sounds exist. But sounds are different in existing. Some try to be "with fear and trembling" because they worry about being wrong. The approach I have briefly outlined brings certain sounds to our attention. In the end, we determine which sounds are real and which are not 'spiritually' real.

In my experience, and in my experience of others, the sounds of the spirit of God in human terms form my ultimate reality, from which I derive significance and purpose. Not sure about many things, but I have seen and I have experienced this simple approach to work and be life-giving in its workings.

regards

Hi Kimmio

You seemed to describe the exercise of what I call Christ-specific skills...

Some street people are saints... some are not at all. Some can be quite savage. Perhaps the streets bring out the best and the worst in people, or perhaps they just put things into relief.

Over the years, I have much to do with "street people", young and old. As a group, they are very much like the rest of us and our groups.

I will agree that the spirit of God in them calls out from them (be they saints or be they harmful) more poignantly, or so it seems. ...leaving the 99 to find the 1 lost one, as it were.

And, some folks hear that call of God from within the bereft, the weak and the lost, and respond to it in inspiring ways.

To love is to serve ... Godly love serves within human terms and serves with knowledge and  wisdom. Most of all, I believe Godly love from us, serves people in a hundred everyday things,during the course of ordinary (and extra ordinary) days.

regards

Aldo ...

"Some street people are saints... some are not at all!"

Where do police get most informants on the view ... from the underworld (Sous-la)? Of couse this may be pure allegory or satyr in a differing form! Being that logic and reason are not acceptable in many faith-systems. Emotions alone are accepted ... so you must dump all your clues at the door. This leads me to the satyr (devilish thought pattern) of Lot's wife outside that burning citii that the Hebrew refers to as chaos (primal's observation or vision). A pillar of salt when  an old salt is considered wise? Would that poison a deep fresh well that was going on emotions alone? Appears to me there is a biblical conjecture that follows that pathe!

Consider it just an expression of a mental case .. a bit nuts as some call me pissed because of what perhaps, we shouldn't know. Now is god as infinitely caring and infinitely wise, when mankind puts down philosophy as evil ... does that present an impossible conjecture? Now a conjecture is like a theory ... what one professor of ethics told me is just a mire myth a wrong thesis according to his antithesis (that may have ben meremaid like psyche taking a dun-kahn). Inquisitors liked to do this instead of being genteel and thus the myth went deeper. The well is now deeper and the confident unknowing cluster feels it is poison down there. This would seem a favourable reflection, report, or Ka-nun would chi not? In business one used to be told to have report with the client to be professional ... this philosophy has long passed in the rush for rapid success! Now the mode is be shrewd with everone and share no intellect atoll and thus we become islands of disconnected wisdom ... leading to certain ends.

In studies when people were ask whether they wished to be awares of ands and means ... over 85% said they didn't wish to know. Does this toss out a hint from camel flauged dimensions? Oh, the extent of what we don't know ... could be considered infinite from one singular perspective! Mortal means don't get it as a comological conjecture about constants being out there .. as unknowns, unseen and ineffable. Things and functions we wish to remain ignorant in the one-up-man-ship ... it drifts ... somnolently ... waiting for sentient or sentinal behaviour of buried salts! Up she comes ... did you know that the sahara holds vast resources of salt? One philosopher said he expects the next Einstein to come out of Africa ... if cultivated appropriately and not cut down by roué-man behaviour without flex/flects/damned spots! These could be quanta ... like bo-suns, dark unseen powers of subtle psyche! In mortals an internalized thing driven underground by wild desires ...

 Now if that is a myth is that like conjugative form of Emotional Intelligence (Daniel Goleman)? Some just can't get it together in ecclesiatic "manna" that requires some gathering and some sense of rest! Does the soul of god rest its case in the infinite and nothing ... that'd be Eire/eerie ... no? The line is thin and ethereal as a medium for explicit thought! Albeit these are things I have been denied right to speak of ... so IT was rot (wrote)! You see all mediums have a right to redaction and mental corruption ... so those that didn't wish wouldn't have to ponder thoughts about emotional manna. It is a ru'agh spot we have to live through as (per pas'n) in spatial circumstance ... a gift of our primal parents as they blew thought into that hum'Ið dot ... UR ... that could have been mispelt as humis in powers that didn't care about fecundity and guanna (Ba Tzhit)! To understand word in depth one must get deep into the literary history of god and the fun authorities of intellect lost in taking god to serious and hard when god can be altered ... even though in time, space and light (krist) of the situation it may or may not have been appropriate for all concerns. 

Then as one prys into the human story deeply and reads a lot of those strings that connect (unseen to many hard and blind, pious cases) one begins to conceive of empathy. This is impossible to those with no sense of sympathy for anything little more those they see as nothing or something greater to be attacked and torn down. Thus the myth as it goes on an few would believe the mind of god would be hidden there anyway as a story is just an expression of a state of mind that a per-sona is in ... unreasonable to those looking in from the other side of the debate ... and on top of that doesn't like wordy people (eM) who tell myths, stories and other outrageous things about the soul of god as seen from bottom line in the san (pas or outside the monied system of wealth.

There is a sense of entitlement hidden there somewhere but not apparent to all. Those that can't see the need of empathy and simp'athé with icons, signs and Semite ... will be recycled to feel the pain from the opposing side. Perhaps pain of learning wears off when on high too long ... leading to fallout from the pile-Ur of salt ... thus the Nus or that grave-ID trap we call subtle mind (RO-device) that works like a sponge and has jaws like a trap, or hanging loop ... like those caught up on either side of the contemplative medium in regard to logic. Could lead to catching satire ... and that would really throw off those that take word and such literally ... when the infinite and nothing may not be as it appears in a Circe with a centre (nondescript spot without mass or volume).

There's nothing that can approach it with definitive words ... thus the abstract, what is sometimes called incomplete imagination ... suggesting that god is not finished yet as a scattered expanse ... of what we don't know. Why don't we know? This is what a lot of old folk that didn't know thought was all there was to it ... but they didn't know much either did they ... or perhaps as aboriginal sparks of emotion ... they knew about appropriate wondering about what's on the alien neighbours mind and shared ... this also leads to the myth of Mirror Neurons and some interesting observations of human behaviour and miss-behaviour of Ur who skipped out to learn of strange sectors that the paternalist hoped to save to peddle as the dot'rs ass, or goad to avaricious action of selling something that the paternity has previously given the dot'r without a clue of what he did put into IÐ!

Such is the nature of the primal soul (aboriginal core values) until it begins to understand consequences that go round ... if the psyche is injured will it learn? Some stoics are isolated from this for far too long ... possibly leading to a  fall in the western way as they thought their powers were beyond sensational! To me that's a pain of innocense, or what they don't know in ignorance of the purpose (per-pose) of myth that's sublime! Like jah Su' and unpondered redaction of word as psyche hides Ur's elf in the foliage ... and thus imagined life as it is folds another chapter in a long unobserved string ... unless you get right into what's out there within the dimension of quanta ... that may have been mistaken as G-wanda ... a small magi stick that can we waved to illicit thoughts as laid out in a boche!

Consider the ration in street people versus within the monied rich and then watch the TED.com talk on: Does Money Make Us Mean? It fits (phtttzzz) in with Harold Bloom's philosophy on human desires ... they don't know limits ... making them moor or less mire mortal! Is that dirty pool or just muddy water so as to aid them in hiding painful wisdom (Proverbs 1:8 and Ecclesiatees 1:18) although most would never question the "scrypt" that deeply as superficial and perhaps supernatural peoples that feel themselves above that line of medium as inscribed in gods earthy thoughts. There could be fallout of the elevated entitlement of understanding that just isn't there on night Eire ... this is a period set aside to explore the greatest emotions ... cultivated "horizontally" as fear and anger over the screwed and screwee ... a shrewd way of displaying those without conjugal affections in "upright" form that would include serving as something to play with and de-Rhama-tiyes what you can do with word as a Semite (icon, symbol) in a world that hates even the remotest evidence of the existence of psyche when emotional people didn't like Ur (Li-Curr; sun dawg)!

In the business world ... is it best to be hard or soft-hearted? Through out all this we read biblically: "If you are not for us ... you are against us!" If the lines are drawn somewhere between (in nate sector) purely caring and purely (per in ancient tongues, sounds, phonetics, somnulent) informed (data-immersed) does this leave space for a moderate? What would you call a mental moderate? Could this be a thinking, caring medium ... or just a fringe psychic medium that is yet unproven in abilities to walk the line at the edge (outside the core values).

Both extremes(poles, polity, etc) would say the medium is odd or perhaps crazy and thus those that speak of god without knowing express a blind faith --- Lazarian Philosophy in conjecture! It is a favoured state by those that live life flat out without any depth ...

Some confidence people jump into this too early in the game (gammos myth) that is dark and generally unseen to those that don't see that as apparent. Then the word as God ... is that not quite how the true thing ræ-appears after a rest? This creates a'gape or a sense of incomplete divinity or other abstract. There will be a' Moor intuit than you can imagine! This is the Golden Rule as writ ... but generally unseen by most blinded in pi-ETy ... that upright form dizzies eM!

I do love the filmy noir ... thus the extent of in -qui word that is poorly understood by those that don't dig it as too complex ... they think God is simple and easily overruled!

How easily they rise to the bait ... pede! That stinking fisherman in the pew trying to extract what's hidden there in small groups! One must grope while in the dark ... and you're bound to hear giggles of anticipation from psyche ... rye there in the pool!

It is something you can lear into ...

Mike

What happens when the ditch is within us? If so, then...

As you say, God is behind the glories of the ditch .... also the glories of the ditch within.

The knowledge within us, is the mind of Christ, which stands idle till we call to it, in a voice that speaks; and with ears that hear in return, what the Paraclete (alongside us calling us) says in response.

As I see it, there are no ditches ready made for us to lay into and observe. I think, as nature does outside us, we create ditches within from which we can appreciate the actual workings of God within us forming us. It is our existing through Christ that attracts flowers and bees, which we can then take in with awe for the splendour of spiritual creation.

In the end, I do return though, to those very practical and user-friendly Christ-specific Lifeskills that help us put one foot in front of the other in efforts to actually follow here and now...

regards

Hi Mike,

I had not read or even heard of the book. Have discovered that it is quite recently published. Local library has copies on order. I look forward to reading it. Here is a review, for others who may be curious: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/pastrix-review-nadia-bolz-weber . There is a video near the bottom of the page that is worth checking out.

With appreciation and best wishes for 2014,

George

Hi

I heard her interviewed on the CBC... a phenomenon. The trailer is interesting. Her web site also very good...

regards

Awesome, awesome, awesome!!!!! That was 20 minutes well spent. Confession: I had read a bit of her stuff and enjoyed it had only seen about a 10 sec clip of her before, so when she first started talking I thought, "Here we go, another aging hipster doing a cynical bitchy disinterested schtick. That's nothing new in this town (I live downtown and see that at Starbucks everyday), and it's getting tired. Reminds me of a stand up comedian I saw somewhere. Janine Garofalo does the same schtick. I wouldn't fit in her church either. I'm nowhere near cool and ironic enough." I'm terrible (and also cynical), because that's what first went through my mind. I have to fight the tendency to be judgmental too- I don't like that about me. Just mentioning it because there are others out there who might have the same initial reaction- getting tired of 'hipness', have dropped that concern, and just want to 'be', hip or not. But as she kept talking, and I kept listening- she was real, she proved me wrong, and she made a lot of sense.

One thing though...other churches better follow suit or everyone's going to become Lutheran... ;)

I liked her comment about having to make a cultural commute between where her friends are, and where the church is. Personally, I have to make a cultural commute between who some of my friends are, to who some of my family is, to who some others of my family are, to who other friends are, to who I am, to who the church is. I look around, everywhere, and noone's just like me. There are visible attributes about me that make it physically impossible to not be a misfit in any physical environment. I've always felt that way in any group and could never hide it no matter how hard I tried. And, I've certainly tried. The closest I've come to not initially feeling like a misfit and not having to try not to be, is with other people with disabilities- but once we force or label ourselves into a particular 'culture' of disability- again, I don't fit. I don't want to be put in a disability silo either. That feeling's never changed, even when the visible barriers are removed, because it's shaped who I am. So, I don't know who 'my people' are, exactly. They're not necessarily UCCan people, or anyone of any ethnicity or nationality or race or sex, or ability, or religion, or economic status, or even others who identify as Christian. They could be any or all of those.


That term, 'my people', doesn't resonate with me- except perhaps, with people who feel the same way. They have to open up and admit it to me, "I don't feel like I fit in anywhere, but that I'm always adapting everywhere" then neither of us feels like an outsider anymore because at least we share that. With that admission, we connect, they feel like 'my people'. Whatever they look like, whatever their background. But I never spot 'my people' in a crowd because they are...Everybody? Nobody? Both?

That's one of the reasons I don't like contrived environments. The rigors and rituals of the church can feel contrived sometimes, as can other institutionalized environments. But somehow I try to find common ground, moving through and past my own cynicism when necessary, and just accepting their humanity on the other side of it- but never fully fitting the same mold. My husband included, but he gets me best because we have that in common. He can understand. We can discuss it and accept it without trying to force anything. That's a lot of commuting! I may be wrong, but I feel that Jesus could relate- i recognize that in Jesus- he didn't fit in anywhere, except, Jesus automatically spots the other misfits in a crowd, anywhere. In terms of "putting on Christ" maybe that's something to get better at. Both seeing it in others, and admitting it to others. Admitting it, so others can see it.

Wow. It took me a few hours to complete and edit that long post. It's 3:30 a.m. Good thing I'm still on holidays.

WaterBouy

Thanks for your lengthy response... it is not lite reading.

For my part I separate existence from created existence. In created existence one finds mere myth, but also reality unfolds there as well. I just not not personally interact with myth per se. There is myth in my experieince, but there is also real interaction within existing. In created existence we find conflict and resolution and all that kind of thing. The trick is to discern the real stuff (i.e. truth) and separate it from th eother stuff...

As for film noir... it is absorbing. I find it evaporates in the morning sunlight.

regards

Kimmio

Very thought provoking response.

Let me focus on your latter comments.

Does Christ "automatically spot the other misfits"? Or is that because he does not see misfits, those around him are struck that he interacts with what they see as misfits in his usual ways?

I suspect make people with disabilities see people with disabilities as 'misfit'. In so doing, they follow the cultural norms of a 'carnal' world that sees, hears and understands in carnal terms.

So, let me ask, setting aside what you have noticed of the world or what the world has noticed of you, if Christ had your "visible attributes" would Christ see people's responses to you as you have seen and experienced when you looked at other people? Would that Christ is what you see, when you look at your self?

Indeed, what do you think that Christ with "visible attributes" would see when he look at and reflected on himself. (Keep in mind, this Christ would be looking from the vantage point of eternity and infinity, where large things are small and small things are large -- as it were)? We could work on making such discernment... but we could get there.

I know when I stop and reflect on myself, what I see is often what Christ would see. But, in the exercise I expect both pictures. Then I ask which is real? my view or Christ's? I opt for Christ's, then I work towards making that view my view or my grasp of reality. My experience is that something within takes hold and lends force to my grasp.

In the paragraph above, is there a difference between what Christ would see and what you see? Which is real? (For sure what most people see is that kind of myth that Waterbouy seems to refer to now and then.)

I suggest that there are various 'realities' through which we can exist or be. Many are fictions (not false, just fictions, myths). The reality formed by God in human terms, that is the reality formed by the Word of God proceeding from the mouth of God, is the reality of God 'tabernacled' or present in the flesh (which is God within in us but in us in human terms).

This approach seems to set things right, as I see them. I find folks who take the time to try it out come to a similar conclusion. Not fitting in is an alienation in this world. The question is one alienated in existence from God and God's world. Being reconciled to God's world is being atoned and in peace.

Well that is what I see...

PS

1.) seeing is only one of the Christ-specific Lifeskills that we can use, 2) if you were supporting a person with your "visible attributes" wold this approach be useful?

Hi Aldo,

I don't think Christ would've had a cynical reaction to Nadia initially, first of all. That is not Christlike behaviour, that's a wrongheaded self defense mechanism on my part, I realize, against the world's insistence that we wear facades to get along- professional facades, business facades, celebrity facades, pop culture facades, religious facades- all the stuff we're sold, label us in a tribal kind of way, but we have to conform ourselves to fit into them, not them into us. This is easier for some than others.

If I were supporting someone with my visible attributes I don't honestly think your approach would be useful, because I am somebody with my visible attributes and I haven't found it very useful. I find it interesting to read and think through, though. Thanks.

To be very honest, if I were supporting someone with my visible attributes, who does actually have to get along in a 'carnal' body in day to day life- i.e. physical barriers in the way- this I don't feel is an empathetic response. I have worked with people with disabilities- it can't be done well unless you are able to put yourself in their shoes, not expect the opposite.

Good and useful feedback... thanks

Hi Aldo,

My response to your post was quite frank. I just wanted to say, maybe help you understand the last post better, that in my own experience and the experience of working with people with disabilities- when I was expected by the organization I worked for to teach one size fits all approaches to people with disabilities it would often be met with distrust, and for good reason- because that's exactly the sort of 'ableism' they were up against in the world in the first place. I used to give workshops on certain 'lifeskills'. It feels like a lifetime ago, but anyway, the 'professional facade' I put on, as expected by my employer, was more concerned with fitting square pegs into round holes than about getting to really understand where the person was at. Failure to conform to the formulas was assumed to be an attitude problem on their part, not on mine. Yet, intuitively I knew this was not the case. That job was hard on my conscience for those reasons. And the same pressures and expectations my employer had of me were the same ones the people I was employed to help were having. That's my insight from that life experience...


As for 'carnal' needs- most able bodied people would not consider walking, for example, to be a 'carnal' need as it's not something they even have to think about. Likewise, a person who can afford transportation does not see having the means to drive or take the bus to a doctor's appointment as a carnal need because they take that for granted. Whatever basics we are given the grace to not have to concern ourselves with we put out of our minds as far as being carnal needs. So, I don't think it's fair to suggest that people with disabilities see themselves as misfits because they are unique in conforming to the expectations of a carnal world. Everyone does, and they do that before they are able to concern themselves with their spiritual needs. Something like Maslow's hierarchy. The only difference is that able bodied people perhaps aren't conscious of their carnal needs to conform to the way the world works as being automatic.

I feel that the Christ within sees a person through their eyes, and truly cares for that person from where they're at. The humble servant.

I also want to comment that I feel, in the case of homeless people, if they're 'savage' we'd do well to really understand what they're angry about that is causing that savageness in the first place. I don't think they were just born that way. That's a result, usually, of many hard knocks the world's given them. That's not always easy to do, though.

Kimmio

As I indicated your feedback  is good, for perspective useful. Thanks for it.

I think discussions happen at different levels from several perspectives, all at the same time. Takes a while to find and get on the same page.

I work with seniors.

As we age, some lose their capacities, some lose their enabled capcities. Impediments arise to carrying out basic activities of daily living. Some can no longer walk, some no longer feed themselves, some are not able to speak. Functionality dissipates. The world rushes to "restore" them with no end of resources and money. Its a losing battle because they are aging.

Everyone hangs on to 'normal' ideals rooted in cultural values (i.e. carnal perspectives). Old people devalue themselves when they look in the mirror - its a legacy from the entire cultural that they themselves have bought into and are not able to let go of. The ideal of functional youth drives them away from their real worth as they are. It is sad to watch them struggle, when perhaps they should be defining themselves anew, without the old bagage. It amazes me that 87 year olds dream of being like they were when they were 75. 87 is ok, just as it is. In that moment, seniors (and I have arrived at that esteemed time or just over the crest into it), I think need to have value in themselves as they are. If they do not, they become clinically depressed and spend a lot of time being very angry, frustrated and filling themselves with suicidal ideation --- all of which is there to be seen everyday in our nursing homes but in the community as well. Now I have seen those who discover what they can actually be (recently one at 103 years of age) who aspire to be what they can be, reaching their goals and smile quite a lot through out the day.

The Christ-specific Likeskills are themsleves not the solutions/answers, I think they allow folks to find practical, doable optimal solutions/answers from where they are, suited to them personally and indivdually at the time. I find they allow one to grow and develop in terms of Christ-likeness.

In any case, as I have said, your feed back is good and helpful.

appreciated

Hi Aldo,

Maybe it's not the essence of your ideas, so much as the jargon that got my back up a little. Thinking of those workshops again. ;)

It might interest you to know- what I now think of as "seeing the Christ within"- either ourselves or someone else- was, prior to being conscious of my faith journey- in social work related courses, stressed as the inherent value of every person- and always looking, no matter how harsh the circumstances (many of my classmates went on to work with sex workers, addicts, homeless people- most of us wanted to advocate from a place we were coming from. In my case- disabilities) everyone has inherent value and should be given the opportunity to change their life. Change is always possible. Not so much about changing the person, but helping them be their best selves. A very 'Christian' perspective (the closest I'd come to it anyway) without the Christian language. The ironic thing is, that the job expectations in the work world, don't often adhere to those principles once one gets there. A similar principle, and a similar problem. I believe there many are Christians out there who don't have the language for it, "putting on Christ" all the time.

Have a good day.

I can relate to your work, with regard to a very senior family member. Thanks for sharing what you do. It helps to understand you and how you apply the Christ specific skill.