That was very good. You express  yourself well. (no mention of Satan or the fall of man?)

Thanks trishcuit! This explanation was originally meant for an atheistic audience, and the topic of Satan is somewhat controversial (especially among atheists), so I decided to avoid it. But, now that you mention it, perhaps I'll try making a 6th point ;)

Those are very good arguments there. However, they are inductive so one way an atheist could challenge them is with Ockham's razor. Ockham's razor is a rule that states that when it comes to inductive arguments, all other things being equal, the best explanation is always the simplest one. So if an atheist were to find a simpler explanation then these five excellent arguments would not be necessary.

A very simple explanation for the existence of evil that atheists would agree on is that the universe itself has no set of moral laws and that it is us as humans who make up the moral rules as we see fit. Since there are no universal laws governing our behavior, we can basically do whatever we want, whatever that may be. Sometimes we want to help, other times we want to hurt, other times, we pick the lesser of two evils or the greater of two goods; it all depends on the situation.

This is a much simpler argument because it does not assume that god exists, which is something that has not been empirically demonstrated, and is therefore a speculation. Speculations decrease the chance of an impirical argument being right so it is best not to have any, just like this argument. Because it is much simpler, it is favoured by Ockham's razor and is the better argument. However, I would like to repeat what I said before that the arguments you present (especially the first two) are very good and demonstrate careful reasoning, which is not something that religion is known for.

I've never really studied philosophy or methods of arguments, but you make a good point. But, some would argue that it isn't us humans who define moral values; rather, moral values are indicative of a loving God who has hard-coded morality into our minds to enable us to tell the difference between right and wrong. But, this is leading to a whole other discussion (and I'd rather not go too far off-topic), so I just want to put the point out that the issue of morality can go both ways in a debate between Christianity and atheism.

Also, these arguments were originally meant to address the question "If God exists, then why is there evil in the world?". I probably should have said that in the original post/title...

KR wrote: "This is a much simpler argument because it does not assume that god exists, which is something that has not been empirically demonstrated, and is therefore a speculation."

On the other hand, if God does exist in reality then this speculation is the simpler one - because in the same way that you say that God's existence cannot be proven empirically, God's existence cannot also be disproven empirically...so yours is also a speculation of the same magnitude.

Ironic that athiests use a theist's reasoning to try to bolster their arguments against God's existence XD

eboyer, If that is the question that the arguments address, then I think they handle the situation pretty well. About morality, I believe that we make up the moral laws ourselves but that usually comes naturally with atheism. If one believes in god then it is usually natural to believe that god makes the rules.

Geo, you're right, both ways are speculation, which is why atheistic and theistic arguments are both inductive. Neither of the arguments can be 100% proven but they can be compared based on probability, and the fact that there is no empirical evidence of a god can be used to suggest that it is less probable that god exists, making the atheistic argument simpler. I personally find that life makes more sense without god but that's just me. My grandparents couldn't imagine a world without god.

eboyer

Welcome to the WonderCafe. Its become so busy recently and we're seeing so many new people we can hardly keep up with all the threads but that's good !

I have this book but I've only read half of it. I won't comment at the present time.

Not buying that one.  God could find a way to prevent evil things that happen and make it look like chance so as to not take credit for it.

To play underrepresented atheist's advocate...

There's a problem, you provide reasonable rationalisations as to why God and evil could coexists but don't prove that they do. You explain how it could be possible, but so could many other explainations be possible.

The Ockham's razor argument is a interesting one because we must recognise that we must be adding information to together to form our world views instead of finding rationalizations for the world views we've already had, life-saving scientific progress has show that inductive thinking leads to more correct answers.

At a certain point we have to obit something was evil, the Holocost or rape-murders come to mind, to try and justify these from a "its all part of God's Grand Plan" is disturbing to say the leat, as is the idea that we should not judge these acts, those who fail to understand to history are as doomed to repeat it as those who forget.

In terms of God making his presence obvious, I say that is once agin changing your definition of God to something even more implausable to fit reality

--------

To express my own opinion,

This question is easily answered with my defintion of God, instead of seeing him as a Supreme Being, I find him as something within all of us. As a community force, the existance of evil confirms the good God does for us. It's hard to explain, but I found Jesus in the Gospels does it amazingly.

Starlight wrote: "Not buying that one.  God could find a way to prevent evil things that happen and make it look like chance so as to not take credit for it."

That is true in some cases, but it would have to be analyzed case-by-case. For example, if a gang of murderers tries killing someone dozens of times, but every time they are prevented by some form of unlucky chance on their part, then someone is going to start wondering what's going on. They may not immediately say "God is preventing us from doing this", but they may start looking up at the sky and wondering what kind of supernatural entity is stopping them.

PantheistQuaker wrote: "There's a problem, you provide reasonable rationalisations as to why God and evil could coexists but don't prove that they do. You explain how it could be possible, but so could many other explainations be possible."

I didn't provide any concrete evidence in the original post, but there is evidence for some of the above points. For example, the Bible says several times that God is infinitely more knowledgeable than us (point #1), that he created us with free will (point #2), that we will be rewarded with heaven if we are good on Earth (point #4), and that hell exists in some form (point #5). Point 3 is based on logic (although, some might not agree with the logic), and there is also some logic or deductions mixed in with the others.

I've heard of other reasons for why evil and God could co-exist, but personally I find the above 5 points to make the most sense to me. Also, as with any topic in theology, not everything can be conclusively proven, so I can't give absolute proofs for all my points.

PantheistQuaker wrote: "At a certain point we have to obit something was evil, the Holocost or rape-murders come to mind, to try and justify these from a "its all part of God's Grand Plan" is disturbing to say the leat, as is the idea that we should not judge these acts."

These things definitely seem evil to us, but still: you and I are mortal, and God is (or at least claims to be) all-knowing. Finite beings can never be in the position to judge infinite beings. Plus, things like the holocaust can also be explained by point #2: Hitler had free will and with it he decided to do the evil that he did.

eboyer:

If he made his presence (and existence) too obvious then he’d basically be forcing us to worship him because we’d know without a doubt that he exists.

For those who believe in the bible literally isn't this their hope or am I wrong? Isn't Jesus supposed to come back to earth, set up a new kingdom and rule for 1000 years? So...no more free will then .....?

well, of course there is biblical basis for most of those arguments (although I would dispute some of the details) but what I meant is you're only proving, as you said, "evil and God could co-exist" which isn't going to win you over much support, nor the idea that "If I could go back in time and prevent the Holocost, then I wouldn't because everything is all part God's Grand Plan."

What was it Jesus said when you have two people with different interpretations, to judge them by the fruit they bear? Does that not state we have a responsibility to compare different interpreations of God against each other by what good they do for us? Is that not an order to judge "God"? (where "God" is all we've got, a church's perspective of God)

Eboyer,

I had to read this over at least three times to get what was going on. lol So if God exists, why is there evil? Simple. Because if there was no evil, the world would be boring. Plus, I think god has enough understanding that there are bound to be some black sheep (Or Goats, as the bible puts it.) in the heard. He gives them a place. Not the best of one mind you, but a place none the less.

Maybe this answered your question, maybe it hasn't. You use much to large of words for me to comprehend. lol Hope it did help though!

Shadow

That would make heaven boring since there's no evil there. So why shouldn't I just go to hell where it's interesting? That's actually my excuse for why I don't care about possibly going to hell.

stardust wrote: "For those who believe in the bible literally isn't this their hope or am I wrong? Isn't Jesus supposed to come back to earth, set up a new kingdom and rule for 1000 years? So...no more free will then .....?"

That's a good point, but my point #3 could still apply to any literalist who isn't alive during Jesus' second coming; it just wouldn't apply anymore once Jesus comes.

PantheistQuaker wrote: "you're only proving, as you said, "evil and God could co-exist" which isn't going to win you over much support"

Actually, from my experience with talking to people about religion, one of the major reasons that some people aren't religious (or doubt their religion) is that they can't imagine why there'd be a god considering how much evil there is in the world. This definitely applied to me a few years ago.

PantheistQuaker wrote: "nor the idea that "If I could go back in time and prevent the Holocost, then I wouldn't because everything is all part God's Grand Plan.""

whoa... hold on! I never said that. If I could somehow go back in time to prevent the holocaust then I would DEFINITELY try to do that! All I said is that there is no way that finite beings like ourselves could possibly figure out what God's reasoning was for "allowing" the holocaust.

PantheistQuaker wrote: "What was it Jesus said when you have two people with different interpretations, to judge them by the fruit they bear? Does that not state we have a responsibility to compare different interpreations of God against each other by what good they do for us? Is that not an order to judge "God"? (where "God" is all we've got, a church's perspective of God)"

Coming up with interpretations for why evil exists doesn't "bear fruit". They're just interpretations, not rules for how we should live. Plus, you have taken one of Jesus' teachings and interpreted it to mean that we mortals are supposed to judge God (which means understanding his ways). Consider this passage from Isaiah 55:8-9: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

Shadow wrote: "if there was no evil, the world would be boring. Plus, I think god has enough understanding that there are bound to be some black sheep"

That's a simple explanation for the co-existence of God and evil, but if it works for you then that's good! I know of some people who would give similar reasons for evil, but others need more complicated explanations, which is why I've come up with my 5 reasons.

killer_rabbit79 wrote: "That would make heaven boring since there's no evil there. So why shouldn't I just go to hell where it's interesting? That's actually my excuse for why I don't care about possibly going to hell."

A lack of evil doesn't necessarily mean heaven would be boring. There are lots of ways to make situations fun or interesting without being evil. Plus, God says in the Bible that the only way to attain true happiness forever is through being with him, and that would only happen in heaven.

Hell may be "interesting", but I wouldn't say that's an attractive quality. The mainstream view of hell (an eternity of punishment) does seem interesting, and perhaps people in hell would never be bored because they're too busy experiencing pain.

But, no matter what your view is on what heaven and hell will be like, Jesus explicitly says that heaven is better than hell. Heaven is a reward, and hell is a punishment.

If the evil is coming from another human being then it would be an infringement upon free will if God were to step in.

My very favorite movie has become Bruce Almighty and Evan Almighty.

To Paraphrase from the movies.......

If you asked God for patience............wouldn't he then give you an opportunity to be patient.

Some times it is the bad/Evil that happens in one's life that makes them who they are. I'd like to think that I have taken my bad events, and created a sympathetic person of myself. I want to be forgiving and Caring, therefore I am given opportunity to be caring, and to forgive.

As well, how do we know that God has not already stepped in to quell some of the Hugly Evil deeds?

Maybe not by your logic, but by Shadow's logic, the reason why god wants there to be evil here is because it would be boring without it. Heaven is traditionally portrayed as a place with no evil, which means that it has to be boring. If heaven were to be interesting, by Shadow's logic, it must have evil, but since it doesn't it must be boring.

By the way, would you ever watch a TV show or read a fictional book that didn't have some sort of conflict? Chances are you wouldn't, because that there would be nothing fun about watching/reading it. Authors know that conflict is what makes a story interesting. A world with no conflict would be very boring.

To rabbit_killer79:

Maybe it's true that on earth we need some form of evil in order to not be bored (although that's still debatable), but that doesn't necessarily apply to heaven/hell. Heaven and hell are pretty much always referred to as a place that humans cannot comprehend. So, we can't apply our earthly experiences of boring and fun to heaven and hell. The only statement that we can apply to heaven and hell with any sort of confidence is that heaven is better than hell. I don't know what your view is on the validity of Jesus and the Bible, but Jesus, the only source of info about heaven and hell, always said that no-one would choose to go to hell once they saw it.

Also, heaven and hell are taught as being eternal in time. The thing about eternity is that eventually all material things will get boring. No matter how many possessions and no matter how much evil there is, eventually you'll be saying to yourself "That has already happened to me 1000000 times". This is where heaven comes into play. Christianity teaches that heaven and God will fill the human soul in a way that no material thing can do. Our souls will be filled with joy forever, so we will never get bored. Basically, God completes us. God does not exist in hell, so eventually everyone in hell will get bored and feel empty. I know that this is sounding kinda "preachy", but Jesus says something along those lines somewhere in the Bible.

As concepts it is safe to say that heaven is supposed to be better than hell, but as far as objective statements, there is no way that anyone can make a valid claim about the afterlife. Unfortunately any and all claims about the nature of the afterlife, and arguments about whether or not there even is one, are, and probably always will be, purely speculative. I wouldn't trust Jesus' ideas anymore than I would trust anyone else's, including mine. I personally don't believe in an afterlife because I don't believe in the soul for scientific reasons, but there is still no way to prove that that means that there still isn't somehow an afterlife.

Jesus is far from the only source of information on the afterlife. Every religion has its own ideas about what the afterlife is like. People who have near-death experiences believe that they have seen the afterlife (although their experiences can also be explained as being the product of oxygen depravation in the brain, due to clinical death). However, no living person, including NDE survivors, have any true authoritative knowledge on what it is like to be dead, because none have been totally brain dead and came back.

This is unrelated, but I thought that heaven and hell were considered to be a part of creation, meaning that they can't be eternal in time.

Sounds to me like we will get to enjoy the benefits of pure sinfulness. Aren't gluttony, sloth, greed, intoxication and such things considered to be destructive by Christianity? Why are we not allowed to do these things in this life but promised all the sinful pleasures we can sinfully desire in the afterlife? This is something that has puzzled me for a while and if anyone else wants to take a crack at it you are more than welcome.

Well, i'm happy I escape your scrunity in this case, the Islamic idea of the afterlife is one where fountains of wine and such are everywhere, the catch being that they are non-intoxicating.  There is not need, because you are intoxicated with the prescence of God.  And not the "I got totally smashed last night" kind of intoxication...but i'm sure you know the meaning.

As-Salaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni, where do the virgins come from then? Is that just propaganda of pseudo-jihadists or did Muhammed actually bargain with god about some kind of afterlife situation with them in mind? And if so, do women get male virgins?

Thank you VERY much for this!!  (Don't really know how it would come up otherwise!).

In the Qur'an there is ABSOLUTELY NO mention of any number of virgins for sexual pleasure.  NONE.  The only mention of virgins in the afterlife, is that all your companions will be virgin pure (i.e. chaste, modest, repectful et cetera...).

And yes, this is propaganda used a lot to 'inspire' the ignorant, although it's acutally one of the lesser used, and less effective means of coercion.

As-Salaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Yeah, I thought it was a good time to bring that up. I'd have to agree that your afterlife doesn't count then.

Doesn't count? What mean you by this?  And with whom are you agreeing?

Do you agree with me that it is a different idea of afterlife?  And that is doesn't count (i.e jive well with) other ideas of the afterlife?  Or the Jihadist-extremists sometimes ideas?

As-Salaamu Alaiykum

-Omni

I'm agreeing with when you said this:

Because if the Muslim afterlife isn't about gluttony and greed and lust and getting whatever you want then it doesn't fall under the criticism I made about heaven upthread (which has yet to be adressed btw)

Aaaah I see, sorry for the confusion.  Have a good day :)

As-Salaamu Alaiykum

-Omni

The reason for evil is that we are natural.  Nature is.  It isn't in our nature to be evil.  It is in our nature to survive. We survive at all costs.  We rationalize our costs and make profits.  Are the profits evil.. no, they are the product of survival cost.  Is survival evil, no. it is animal. Are animals evil, no, they are nature.

Are people evil when acting as animals? 

Now, we have the problem of philosophy, ethics and religion.  If God exists, God  is only the bit of nature where we think about the issue.  God doesn't have a veto, only a place to sit it out to talk about it.  God can't interfere, only be aware.  God doesn't have advice, only silence.  God can't actively heal, only provide sanctuary.God can't be good or evil only provide the space, time and balance to perceive the quality of actions. 

This question is a bit off-topic, but is your reason for this because of scientific evidence or a lack thereof?

This is true, but what I meant was that Jesus is the only authoritative source of info for the Christian version of heaven and hell. (Sorry, I'm not used to being in such a religiously-diverse discussion forum). Also, I consider his view on heaven and hell to be authoritative because he proved through his miracles, prophecies, and resurrection that he is the messiah (IMO).

I'm pretty sure that Genesis does say heaven and earth are part of creation, but I'm also pretty sure that Jesus says that heaven and hell are eternal in time. Plus, why can't a part of creation be eternal in time? The big bang theory says there's 3 possible outcomes for the universe: it keeps expanding forever, it stops expanding and then shrinks back into a singularity, or it gets to an exact equilibrium in which the universe never expands again and never contracts again. The first and third possibility imply eternal time, and the second implies an eventual end of time. Plus last time I checked, all research on protons, neutrons, and electrons show that they never decay, and thus matter can exist forever.

Christianity teaches that this life is a test to see who should and who wants to be with God in heaven. If we are able to resist the temptation of being excessive then we will be rewarded in heaven. This is why we are limited in this life, but not the next; a sort of test of character. Plus, things that are pleasureful aren't necessarily sinful. For example, Christianity says that sex is one of the greatest goods on earth, but it becomes a sin when abused. So, these kinds of things are only sinful if done excessively.

Also, when I say that God completes us, I don't mean that this is done in a sinfully, gluttonous way, or that we are intoxicated with God. One way to look at it is that we are a puzzle that needs one more piece in order to be complete. God fits the shape of this piece, and once we are with him he completes us and our goal is accomplished. Heaven could also be seen as the ability to be with your soulmate (God) forever.

A little bit of both. There is no empirical evidence to suggest that the soul exists and neuroscience is painting a picture of a purely physical brain, with no need for a soul.

Those miracles haven't been proven to have happened though, you have only one text which suggests that those miracles happened.

The suggestion that heaven and hell were created contradicts the suggestion that they are eternal in time because creation suggests that there was a time when heaven and hell never existed (before Genesis 1) but then Jesus said that they always existed. How can something with a beginning be eternal?

This makes sense but now I want to know why god has nothing better to do than farm people and tempt them with fun things but telling them not to do them, only to reward them with all the fun things they want in heaven. This idea also doesn't fit with a predeterminist or predestination model of god because if god knows who is good enough already then what's the point of a test?

Wow... I haven't been here in a while. Ok, so to answer your question killer, I fully agree with you. Heaven would be boring. Peaceful, but boring. And I'm not afraid of hell. Not anymore.

Eboyer,

Yes, explanations tend to have to be simple with me. i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and i'm easily confused. lol ^-^

The Bible isn't just one text; it's a compilation of several texts written by dozen of authors and even more witnesses. It's similar to how an encyclopedia isn't just one text. Also, the books of the Bible are backed up by thousands of ancient manuscripts, some of which date back to within a few decades of Jesus' death. And there's outside corroboration by ancient historians like Josephus. (this is leading to a whole other discussion, as usual )

Also, there are modern-day miracles. In fact (and the timing of this really amazes me) tonight my brother (who is Catholic) was at mass and he saw a miracle happen. A man from that parish has had a disease in his legs for the past few years, and hasn't been able to walk without using crutches because of it. He came to mass in his crutches, but at the end he ran out of the church and started running laps around the church foyer. Somehow, (miraculously?) he was instantly cured.

I know it may be hard to believe this story (considering I'm just some random guy in a discussion forum), but I can assure you it's true. Also, there are countless other examples of miracles like these at healing masses and religious statues around the world.

I guess we're talking about two types of eternity here: 1. Something that has existed forever, and will continue existing forever, and 2. Something that was created, but will never stop existing. I don't see why the 2nd can't be considered eternal time, considering that it goes on forever.

I'll let someone else handle this one.

Also, I keep wondering about the "I'm not afraid of hell" thing that shadow and killer have brought up. From your viewpoint, you see heaven as being peaceful but boring (like a sunny beach), and hell as being evil but non-boring (like a maximum-security federal prison that includes some form of recreation and entertainment). If you had the choice to spend 50 years in one of those two places (and assuming that all your basic needs are met at each location, such as food, water, and shelter), which would it be?

I think I have an issue with your #4, eboyer.  Why can't this life be paradise?  Isn't that what we're supposed to try and achieve with "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"?

It certainly isn't very divine right now, but I believe that humans have the potential to create a heaven here on earth.

Let's specifically talk about the gospels then. I don't doubt that Jesus existed and I don't doubt that the apostles existed. I'm sure there are third-party texts to back those things up. I've heard that Jesus is in the Roman crucifixion records of Pilate. But do any third-party texts support the miracles directly, or just aknowledge that they happened (which is different than witness testamony)?

Even if I agree that this happened, you have no evidence that it was a miracle. Stuff like that can be explained. You can't just slap the miracle tag on it and call it a day. That's illogical and lazy. Have you even thought about the placebo effect? What about an adrenaline rush? This is an inductive argument so let's try to exercise Ockham's razor.

True. You are referring to one-way eternity whereas I'm referring to two-way. Both are correct however we do need to be speaking on the same definition in order to have a proper discussion. When you said that, "heaven and hell are said to be eternal in time", it sounded to me like you meant in the same way as Yahweh is said to be eternal, as in he existed infinitely before creation. I can understand why heaven would be infinite after creation but when you said "eternal in time", it implied that you also meant infinite before creation. If that's not what you meant then there is no argument though.

Sometimes I think of life now as being pretty close to how hell might be. Siddartha Guatama said that life is only suffering. Sometimes I agree, but I do still appreciate what life is so I just think that if I do end up in hell, it can't be too different from here so if I can handle here, I should be OK with hell. Me and my one friend joke about how awesome it will be in hell because of all the famous people we expect to be there too.

I'm gonna give this question a try.

My answer to the first part of that question: If God created a world without anything that is fun or tempting, then all the living beings that he created would be bored, and if he loves his creation then he wouldn't want that. And, he doesn't tell them not to do these fun things; he just tells them not to be gluttonous about it. If the people follow this rule then they'll be rewarded in heaven.

My answer for the second part:

God only wants us to be with him if we genuinely choose to love him (if we're forced to love him then it's a pointless relationship). For us to genuinely choose to love him we need to be given free will and some time in order to make the decision to accept or reject him. God may be able to predict what this decision will be, but nevertheless he must allow the time to proceed because if it doesn't then our genuine decision is never actually made, and thus we can't be with him. Analogy for this: when dating someone, the only way to get them to truly love you is to spend time with them and allow them to make their own decision about you. If you're really smart and you know a lot about relationships then you may be able to predict whether or not this person will love you in the end, but that doesn't mean that you can get them to love you right away, without giving them time.

So now the question is why doesn't God only create the people who will eventually, by means of their free will, choose to love him, and not create the people who will eventually reject him? At first this seems like the logical thing for God to do because doing so would not violate people's free will (thus it would still be a genuine choice on the part of the humans), and it doesn't mean that God has to create a being that is pre-programmed to genuinely love him (which is not possible because if a creator chooses to create a being that genuinely loves their creator then that's a self-contradiction). But, perhaps it's not logically possible for a world full of free-will-enabled people to all choose God. Perhaps there will always be some rejectors. If God removes all the rejectors from the world then maybe this will end up also removing all the acceptors in the process (because of ancestry, influence on others, etc). Maybe God actually does prevent as many rejectors from being born as possible, but in order to create acceptors he also needs at least some rejectors. It's impossible to know if this is actually true, but when I think about it, it makes sense to me.

In Josephus' work called "The Antiquities of the Jews", Josephus mentions that "some people claim that Jesus did miracles", or something like that. Josephus was a Jew so it makes sense that he wouldn't show open agreement with the statement when writing it. Parts of that passage are disputed, but not all of it.

Something else that suggests that these miracles (and the resurrection) are true is that the apostles went to their death proclaimed Jesus' teachings. They had no tangible benefit for doing this and they knew they would face death by crucifixion for doing it because the Jewish authorities didn't want people to turn away from the Jewish faith.

I'm gonna talk to my brother to get more info about this specific event and once I do I'll get back to you about it (for example, what disease/disability this guy seems to no longer have).

I do agree that many of these so-called miracles can be explained with stuff like the placebo effect or adrenaline rushes, and when I hear stories about people who are "healed" at healing masses and religious statues I am skeptical about it (because I am a rather scientific person, like you). But, some of these healings are physical or they are healings from irreversible diseases, and I can think of absolutely no non-miraculous explanation for this type of healing.

There are possibly infinite different interpretations of what hell will be like, but one thing that almost all of them have in common is that hell lasts forever (one-way eternal time). As I mentioned at one point in this thread, the thing about eternity is that eventually you will get excruciatingly bored of absolutely everything because every possible event has already happened like a billion times, so there's no more possibility for joy (for example, think about what this life would be like if you never died. It'd just drag on forever, and ever, and ever...). The only way to avoid this eternal boredom is to have some type of joy that will never diminish. Obviously no material item can do that to a human. My view on this subject is that only a god would be able to provide this, and if the god did provide it then the location of this god would be considered heaven because it's the place where there's non-diminishing joy.

That's a good point. If everyone really tried then I could see there being some possibility of making a perfect world. But, there'd still be the possibility of evil because we would still have free will.

Kinda what I was getting at with this point is that if the Earth was created with absolutely no possibility of there being evil then we wouldn't have to strive for heaven because we'd already have it.

<fluffy non-intellectual>

Intoxication with fountains of wine sans hangovers sounds good to me. Drunk in the presence of eternal Love. Sign me up for Islam!

</fluffy non-intellectual>

Have you read the Rubayyat of Omar Khayam (excuse spelling)? Lots of wine in that, but "wine" is really eternal love, as he understood Allah to be. I didn't really understand the poem until I learned more about the muslim poetry of Omar's time...couldn't understand why a long treatise about how great wine was could be so profound.

eboyer: this is a very interesting thread, and you've thought a lot about these issues!  Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts.

Geo: pretty much all of thephilosophers and scholars were theists in Occam's day, so it's kind of unavoidable that any great ideas from that time came from theists. But its rather amusing that for all his hyperbole, Dawkins has nothing on Occam for influence! Of course, perhaps history will vindicate Dawkins, though I doubt it.

Eboyer,

I would deffinetly take the maximum security prison.

Reason 1: I don't like the sun XD

Reason 2: In the security prison I can actually meet people and interact and probably hear some pretty interesting stories too.

Reason 3: I'de probably be more comfortable there.

SD

I work for "the" department and you DO NOT want to spend the rest of your days there.

First thing they tell you, don't drop the soap in the shower.

IT

Russ

Actually I heard from someone who was there that it wasn't true... different jail maybe but i'de still rather be there than a beach. Like I said, i would feel more comfortable there. (My idea of comfort is twisted and contorted lol).

Let's just say they don't hand out condoms to make party balloons. 

Twisted?  I defy anyone to define normal, then we can discuss twisted.

Peace.

IT

Russ

Shadow: your quote:

Yes, explanations tend to have to be simple with me. i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and i'm easily confused. lol ^-^

I've heard you putting yourself down over and over again on this forum. How did it come about that you have such a bad self image? 

Our thoughts have power! I know that's my theme song on the WC but its true. Mind is the builder. What you feed grows.

We've all met the man whose dad always told him he was a good for nothing  and would never amount to anything in life. He believes his dad and goes through life meeting his dad's expectations.

He never stops to think that its his own  life and he has a choice about how he thinks about himself. He can beat his dad. He can be "the little engine that could" .....puff...puff....I can.... I can....puff...puff...I can......   I think I can.....until he reaches the top of the mountain.

When you tell yourself you're stupid over and over again in your mind it begins to play almost like a broken record. Your mind goes into a rut or a groove. You're reinforcing the idea.

C'mon girl....you've got to learn to love yourself and tell yourself good things about the wonderful beautiful person that you are. You're not stupid. Yes....you may make some mistakes just like we all do. None of us know everything. We're all learning. Don't be so hard on yourself......

Louise Hay videos. She has a gigantic set of wisdom cards on the net but the website is so busy its not coming up. I hope you may enjoy these a bit. Louise also has a new 90 min. movie on the net but I can't access it at the moment. No offence intended as you well know.....

See below.

I had a rough time posting these...lol... I tried to move them up but they won't go....Yikes!

A few cards on video with Enya singing; beautiful voice.

 

 

lol Thanks Star. No, no offence taken.

I guess i'm stuck it's just a bad habit. I got teased alot in elementary school, so I began saying the same things about myself so it was easier for me to cope. It's easier to laugh with them than to be laughed at by them.

Russ,

Normal: Conforming with or constituting an accepted standard, model, or pattern.

And my parent's say i'm twisted and they're not the most normal people on the earth, so i'm sort of enclined to agree with them. lol

Shadow

Aw......... (((((((((((((((((((((Shadow))))))))))))))))))))))

When you say you're twisted it reminds me of my step dad when my mother was sick in hospital. He was having a shot of whiskey "to get straight" before visiting the hospital. I told him he'll get so straight he'll get  crooked.....

:-)

lol sounds appropriate ^-^

Good analogy. I get what you're saying but unfortunately we still don't have a motive for creating the universe in the first place. I don't expect anyone to come up with one, I'm just saying, that's the last piece of the puzzle as far as I can tell.

I see what you're getting at. It's like how chemical engineers try to maximize product but because we don't live in a world of ideal conditions, there will always be some wasted reagents. God could be like an engineer who is trying to maximize people who love it and minimize people who don't, but because ideal conditions are impossible under the circumstances of free will, it will never reach 100% product.

This is a good argument. I don't know much about the apostles' lives after Jesus died but I dthat one of them (either Peter or Paul I think) was crucified upside down because he didn't believe he was worthy enough to die the same way Jesus died. That's some crazy devotion.

Unfortunately, evangelists and fundamentalist doctors don't like to actually test their hypotheses first so if they don't go looking for other answers then they will obviously not find them. Unfortunately, these people don't believe in doubt and skepticism, even though doubt and skepticism are ironicly what usually leads us to the truth.

That's why I hope there actually isn't an afterlife because I don't want to ever get bored because I've done everything there is to do. Even if in heaven there is no way to feel boredom, I don't know if I like the idea of eternal life. I like the idea of life completely ceasing.

I accept your challenge . For the sake of argument let's assume that God exists and that there is no way he can possibly stop existing. If God is loving and emotional then he'd get lonely if there's no universe and no living beings to keep him company, so it'd be a good idea for him to create a universe. An analogy for this is a human's reason for getting a pet: to have some form of less-intelligent companionship.

Sometimes I feel exactly the same way. The thought of eternal time is without a doubt the most terrifying thing that someone can possibly think of! Just think about it... time keeps going and going and going and there's no end EVER and there's no hope of things ever ceasing. Perhaps one day you gain a bit of hope that this eternity will eventually end, but then you snap back to reality and realize: IT'S NEVER GOING TO END!! If you really concentrate on that thought, I assure you it'll freak you out.

At least a god would know how to prevent this fear/boredom and provide some sort of eternal, non-diminishing joy, but nevertheless because of my human mind's incapability to see how that'd be possible, it scares me.

SD

So if we agree that being twisted is normal, then ....................

Like the old saying "You don't have to be crazy to work here, it just helps".  So who am I to comment.

Would doing the Time Warp in the kitchen with the  family be considered normal?

IT

Russ

OK, that could work. However, since it's based on the Zeus-model of god, we run into several complications. For example, if god wants companionship, then why aren't we ever overtly affected by the relationship? Anything that we think is god sending us a message can be taken in another way, and may just be a perceptual assumption. If god wants a friend then why doesn't it come down and shake our hands (literally)? Also, how does this explanation work with the existence of evil?

My idea is more based on the panentheist-model. I don't think god is intelligent because I think of it as just the universe and that the universe is just a series of accidents so that's how I explain our existence and the existence of evil with no complications. Unless you can find some.