Oh, I just read it this morning. I too am getting Richard Rohr's Daily Meditations.

The false self is the illusory egocentric self with which we have identified since childhood. The true self emerges when we let go of the false self and merge with God (or the universe for those who don't like God language :-)

Then we shift from egocentric to God-centric or cosmocentric, and feel at-one with everyone and everything: at-one-ment! 

Then there is that underlying soma ... that cell that is out there ... like a free methodism? Some refer to it as Higgs Bos-1 a huge singularity that goes about in circles ... like phi ... a mire icon or Semite? This is something that many will not believe as they were told to limit their minds to what they were told ...

Definition of dog maas breakfast ... the puking out of questionably mortal stuff?

Odd what some people suck up to avoid thinking ... while alien stuff causes others to think ... maybe one should spend some time on the other side ... Pall Har V's Nus science appearing as only demi-conscious? A half blown mind! This is the shock of birth ... right?

One learns to think ... maybe after several tries ... some appear stuck by this flow ... deriva 've Stx? That's hebrew conjecture as wee stickmen going across the page boies ...

The following comments will reflect what I am studying in "A Course In Miracles."

I'm not sure that we have to physically die in order to change our viewing platform. In fact I don't think death ist a guarantee that we will clue in to the spiritual and soul reality. But one way or another we do have to get a different perspective on that different reality.

The merging of two or three or four into One is a very important part of merging back into our true self. The communion loaf being ripped into little pieces is symbolic of that Oneness of times long ago.

Atonement, in ACIM terms, is a wiping out of past events and is performed by the Holy Spirit. The goal of that wiping out is to have us live comfortably in the Now and to allow us to forget past differences, forgive past differences, and live more comfortably with each other (At-one-ment).

ha yes, i read this book and know its history,

demonicaly inspired book 

Hi Kay,

I am wondering what comments you have about this passage.

This passage is among the clearest I have read about this concept of dieing before we die.  That was why I posted it.  Aminius said words indicating that he 'gets it'. 

One way I understood this topic came from realising that I find it necessary to change and adjust - bei born again - or in the language of some of my Christian friends - be saved.  This doesn't demand any dogma or church rules - just awareness and growth.  Various proponents of a wide variety of spiritual paths speak of this in various ways. 

This is something that I have known for decades.  Unfortunately, as life and experience move on, the effect of that "death" can wane.  I was particularly struck by his comment about fighting clergy on this concept.  Many clergy, I believe, operate in a mostly intellectual mode, and have not had this kind of experience.  They often have deep identity commitments to their intellectualized faith, and are unable to accept this kind of spiritual experience.

I have had a clergy person outright laugh at me for sharing this type of 'knowing'. Another tried very hard to convince me that the Holy Spirit wouldn't ever come to someone who didn't have a valid Christian faith.  Who said the Christian concept known as the Holy Spirit was initiating my unitive experiences? My first experience was in childhood, and I have been returned repeatedly to the sense of total connection over and over as I aged. My thoughts about it have changed over the years, as have my thoughts about various religious groups. 

 If most churches didn't have set ideas of what and how one should experience the sacred I could attend and introduce a bunch of others. Although I simply cannot read the Bible as ultimate, literal truth, I can gain insights by the words within it.  

Yes, kaythecurler. The experience of total connectedness, oneness, unitiveness, inclusiveness, inseparableness or synthesis: this is ultimate experience, ultimate knowledge. Knowledge that is purely experiential. It is the experience of the ultimate isness of being, and therefore is sacred, godly, and ultimately and absolutely true.

True it is, without falsehood, certain and most true:

That which is above is as that which is below,

And that which is below is as that which is above,

In order to fulfil the miracle of the ONE THING.

-Hermes Trismegistos

I am sad that too many religious people try to cram God into a box that works for them, and expect everyone else to accept the same box.

Yesterday I was told by a UC member, while chatting outside her church that "Of course, you, a person who doesn't even come to church, don't have any spiritual life at all.  It is basically self evident that people seeking to know God, Jesus and Spirit would do so in a church."

Sometimes I really have to dig for a friendly, polite response to statements like this.

Unfortunately, there are too many reverse evangelists like her who are more effective at chasing people away from church than most evangelists are at encouraging people to come to church.  Their ignorance and arrogance give all church goers a bad name.  That is a response you are unlikely to get from anyone at the church I am serving.

Next time you get in a situation like this, text me the comment. I'll send you a good reply.

We both live in the same small goldfish bowl so I really don't want to hurt or offend her.  For the most part she is a pretty nice person - yesterday's comment was more opinionated than her usual ones.  I kept my response to "That is one way of looking at it - but it doesn't account for all the spiritual people who aren't specifically Christian.  I'm quite impressed by the Dalai Lama myself". 

I don't judge all Christians by the remarks of one person, or even an entire congregation like the Phelps's.

When I hear a statement like that, I just nod politely in acknowledgement. Acknowledging that I have heard, not agreeing with what was said. If she takes my nod for an agreement, this is fine with me. If she wants to hear what I think, then she'll ask me, and I speak. But people with absolutist opinions usually don't want to hear what others have to say.

That's why a discussion forum like wondercafe is so neat, eh? Everyone gets to have their say.

And they want to shut us down. Or up?

Neither do I.

I just usually have interesting replies for those sorts of comments. Don't think that all of my comments are vicious. Sometimes they're just funny and I can frame the comment in such a way that it makes them realize what they just said.

I think if we are to find out what God wants from us, we must empty ourselves (kenosis) in order to let God in.

Paul tells us we are to have the mind of Christ, yet how can we do that if we are not open and "emptied" from all our preconceived ideas about God? In a way we almost have to let go of God (as in all we've been taught) in order to really "know" God.

Jesus, "emptied himself" so that we could see God through him. He is the medium that we could  know God through Him. He said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father".

We've all heard the phrase, "Let go, Let God"

I once read that when God emptied Himself, that it caused the universe to be born.

In my own reality, I have found that the first time I've ever experienced God in my life was during a time of great sorrow. I was spent, My resistance was low and in came God to lift the darkness. It wasn't immediate because I had to learn to trust this new sense of peace, even as I struggled. I have since felt this also in great moments of joy. It did become as if I had been "born again" and became a new person inside. All doubts were laid aside for Gods existence. What used to be important wasn't anymore and a sense that there was something more. Becoming a servant rather than being served. Oddly by moving myself to the peripheral, it actually centred me.

This type of thinking troubles me greatly. Wikipedia's explanation of "kenosis" makes it sound decidedly cultish. Emptying my will? Look, if you want a world full of Christbots, that makes sense. Why isn't Christianity able to simply win people over without them surrendering their intellect in some fashion? Why can't it win over on it's own merits?

People loooove word play. I think it was Aldo who recently told us that "God" was the root of the word "good". It isn't. They both use the same letters and look a lot alike. That's it.

*blinks*

I can't use the obvious joke here, can I? For those reading, if you're thinking it, you have a filthy mind and should be ashamed of yourself. And I admire you greatly.

There is great sorrow in the lives of pretty much everyone. We endure, just as we always have. Why is that? Because this God that evolved from earlier polytheistic faiths had a son? Or because we are stronger than we think and have no choice but to gather the pieces and move on?

The idea that God is responsible for rebuilding our lives is an enticing one. But what if it is just smoke and mirrors? People of all faiths and no faith are able to do the exact same. Isn't it better to say that I pulled myself back up and started walking again, and have that self-confidence, rather than misplace that confidence on some deity?

We beat ourselves up so much for our failures. We should take credit for our successes.

I realize how silly it sounds to you Chansen and how easily you can make fun of someones spiritual experience, but isn't that just an example of how you can't even accept someone elses truth outside of your own?. You are clouding and taking my experience and comparng it with your own and turning it into something entirely different. You might try letting go of that "sky daddy" reasoning that you seem to cling to.

I'm not looking for your approval.  That's okay, even my experience isn't going to be everyone's experience.

It's not "cultish", it's a way of aligning ourselves with ALL of creation. Instead of reading Wikipedia, read what St. Ingatious of Loyala says, or Miester Eckhart, Thomas Merton (20th century), St. Paul, or John in the Bible. Even Jesus' words himself.

Hi Chansen you posted---

This type of thinking troubles me greatly. Wikipedia's explanation of "kenosis" makes it sound decidedly cultish. Emptying my will? Look, if you want a world full of Christbots, that makes sense. Why isn't Christianity able to simply win people over without them surrendering their intellect in some fashion? Why can't it win over on it's own merit?

_________________________________

Airclean -- Comments like this show how little understanding they have of GODS word.This may help you  Chansen.

GOD is always right . Mankind not always so.

it is not am emptying of will, that would be impossible, its a shifting of will 

Jesus " not my will, but thy will be done

intellect fully intact 

an act of pure selflessness for the betterment of mankind 

Surrendering your will? Oh no, that's not cultish at all.

No, it's aligning ourselves with Christian dogma, not all of creation. And reading the bible makes it worse. I've read more of the bible in the five years or so since I got here than in my previous 36 years. There's some good stuff in there ans some terrible stuff in there, and no way to separate the two. It certainly doesn't make me want to believe, or surrender my will to a character in a story.

For the "betterment of mankind"?!? Seriously?

You can't show that Christians are better people than any other group! Forget "betterment of mankind", Christianity can't shake the widening observation that it's full of people with bigoted and judgemental opinions, and hypocrites. Society has to drag the bulk of Christianity to accept moral conclusions that everyone else reached decades prior. Even the UN is coming down hard on the Catholic Church.

Christianity isn't bettering mankind. Not when mankind has to fight to make Christianity better.

No you shouldnt align yourself with Christian dogma. I didnt say that.

Christians are not God Jesus was, we still have our human nature
, just like your professing in these threads, that you would rather act upon your own will for your own personal gain.

The Christian understands that the will of man is very selfish and we strive and struggle with the daily.

There are also many many instances when Christians have understood what was asked of them and yes they got it right.

The only silliness in this thread is when you insinuated that God defecated the universe into existence. That wasn't me. Interesting hypothesis, though. If we ever meet at a bar, just pull up a stool and we'll discuss it.

My actual point, in all seriousness, is why do we go directly to supernatural explanations? There are so many simple, plausible reasons for these experiences, but when you believe, it seems you immediately look to complicate things with spirits and God and Jesus.

And, like in that other current thread, not even all Christians have these "experiences". They're being ignored by God, then?

I haven't used those words here. Here's the worst of what you can accuse me of:

I'm suggesting, and I know this is terrible, that you are a strong person. I know, I know, I should be falling over myself with apologies. How awful of me.

Worse than that, I'm saying people of all faiths and no faith are, on average, strong people who can overcome the worst that life can throw them.

Finally, and possibly worst of all, I'm suggesting that we take credit for our hard fought successes. That we say to ourselves at the outset that "I can do it," and at the end we should be allowed to say, "I did it."

I'm not here looking to give approval. I'm pointing out that Christians, after all these "experiences", are doing things that people without these experiences are also doing.

It's not so much that there is no explanation for these experiences, it's that there is nothing about what people do in response to these experiences that requires an explanation.

Having exhausted the alternatives?

Okay, cheap shot. Yes, let's give Christianity credit for coming to reasonable conclusions on many occasions. Well done.

That's assuming that in all circumstances one would be inclined to do good.....or the right thing. A perfect world would provide that, but we're not there....yet. God's will holds the key to where our focus should lie.

Again, bullshit. Christianity doesn't automatically lead you to do the right thing. In many instances, it can lead to the wrong action.

Agreed but again its not the "Christianity" that Jesus spoke of is it? If you've read Jesus' words you know that. He didnt even speak of Christianity per se, rather He spoke of another "way" to live in order to be able to see through the world without allowing the temptations of the world to cloud our vision.

Yes it is possible to know right from wrong according to the world without God but do we know how to see through the world without Gods vision? You would say yes and I would say no.

no it dosent , and thats because we are not autonomous creatures, we have free will, but as pointed out by Waterfall, God inspires us to where our will should be, 

Hi Chansen--You posted---

I'm not here looking to give approval. I'm pointing out that Christians, after all these "experiences", are doing things that people without these experiences are also doing.

It's not so much that there is no explanation for these experiences, it's that there is nothing about what people do in response to these experiences that requires an explanation.

_________________________________

Airclean--I am not sure what you think your saying hear . But it looks to me like you saying . You don't have a reason for being hear.This seems kind of funny to me. But then agian carry on. --airclean33

Not even close, airclean. You're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote.

If that were the case that the God of Christianity inspired Christians to do the right thing, then you could show how Christians are more commonly moral and accepting than those of other faiths and no faith.

Is inspiration just not one of God's strengths?

LMAO. You're more twisted than I am.

If I'm going to hell, where are you going? Is there some kind of sub-hell?

Nah. Purgatory is here.

I was never baptized, but you're more twisted. This will be an interesting call as to which of us is worse.

I'm assuming you meant that for Dreamerman. :)

You do realize that most private humanitarian aid word wide are Christian based right. Going to 3^rd world countries or war torn countries, or running and maintaining orphanages.

My church through church money , has built Churches in the Dominican  , which are used as school, we have dug water wells, we have re built and donated beds to orphanages.

The reason why you or the secular world does not see these is because , you are not a Christian or a member of a body of believers who do outreach and

2) it never makes news because the secular world does not care about the poor and dying , the world only cares to see and hear about what benefits self 

this video below is a vidoe of a member of my church who founded teh samantarian foundation, with his own money , 

and there are millinons apon millions of testamnies world wide, you dont see them because you simply dont care 

There are two ways to read the following. The first is literal and the second is metaphoric. There is a world of difference between the two.

There is a spring of life at the very core of our appearing in the world. It flows from the inside out. Sometimes it gets blocked. Mostly by the strange agency of fear.

Cut off from the inner supply we languish and fall into decay. No matter how we try to fill ourselves, by drawing meaning and purpose from the outer world, we continue frustrated and dissappointed.

Then comes a moment of realization. By the light of this realization, we begin the work of clearing away all the clutter we have accumulated in a vain desire to satisfy our deep longing for meaning and purpose.

We empty ourselves to clear the blockage, by which the inner spring has been sealed off. With the blockage cleared, the inner spring begins to flow. First a muddy dribble. Then a cloudy trickle. Finally, a clear strong stream.

There are many selves in the world, many forms. Looking out we see these many self forms divided and conflicted within and without. There is only one spring of life animating the whole diversity of self forms.

Where this spring of life flows unimpeded by the autonoumous self forms, unity of meaning and purpose is established. What was broken is repaired.

George

Hey George ... that's getting ID together ... like ecclesia and gathering of all sorts of alien things ... they are fearful ... strange items and ideoms ... they should be challenged for understanding or far fetched meaning ... from farce IDe! God does shelter many alien satyrs ... word and logos is like that ... milieu is out there like a water spout that can whet the most arid brain impressed with flames ... why a noche was provided as a Nus to gather mysterious wadis ... in Gael this is Nous of an intimate ecclesia ... sacred friends as something almost imaginary pipes as caves to investigate  as gently laced? Leads to the Meme brae in when adequately achieved and worked at ... as metaphorical in multiple degrees ...

Not something often done in a church that has suffered full brute force of terrorism of everything (god?) ... when in such explicit forms of passion god is just outa here ... off somewhere gathering eM's wits ... as watching human behaviour would cause a perfect personality to loose ID very quickly. Looked at from outside perspective you think belief in God is crazy ... reconsider the sense of a mortal god ... amman? This is the terrestial soul ... quite limited ... without a sense of abstract (incompletion?). Thus rapture must be fulfilled ... and meat laid on the alter for darker burr'ds to have Seder ... like Sunday Morning coming down from TGIF ... perhaps a day off considering the excessive water pipe sounds of Dan ...neigh bouyed in all the fluid seizure of thoughts! The man was milqued or some believe bilked of powers ... such is that gnawing feeling of Sisera in tent ... in the fabrication of man?

As said earlier about emptying the self ... one should save some emotional character so that one doesn't become a purely num' intellectual or burning intelligencia ... that would brand everything stupid. Some sensitivity in the application of divine humour is bloody well requited as aeneid ... mythical Des Iraes? Far out in that other dimension ...

This brings Jesus line back to doubled orde-deuc'n as "=Oz'n" an equine model in which absolute and abstract are given equal shares in production of process ... as data/intellect! Still many blind emotions believe the thoughts should be maintained on a high shelf or stage separated from pagans (koine folk)? Then what happens when the population of koine folk (de moniç'; demon-ish abstraction) increases to the proportion of so much lack of intelligence ... it becomes destructive cynicism? Popular wipe out as self-destruction?

It appears to me the teaching of process wisdom is acrude cognizance of how lack of knowledge has screwed up an ideal wisdom ... efficiency and corner cutting in social structures is like corruption of the social soul in which all types of wisdom should be considered before one follows their differentiated conception of God ... a gathering of everything as mutiple entendre? That'd be a large wisdom ... no doubt would fail in a dimension supporting passions of pyre alone, and the burning of the tree of knowledge as some stoics will do to books  (boch's) of alternate conception ... no verge'n allowed ... scro' them all ... in creative style this allows for saacs of BS on the rear ends of red neck vehicles ... neutered fantasies? Dejected myths and failed conceptions! Thus thought and knowledge drifts off into God-knows where ... presciently listed as knowhere man ... mortal doesn't yet have enough compassion and clues to go there without a ruagh pilgrimage ... is there a solution to that pluralized enigma? Multiplied entendres? They are piling up ...