What has religion ever done for us:
I mean, besides hospitals, the abolition of slavery, civil rights, prison reform, votes for women...

and

Religion has no place in public life.
Okay. Except for Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Tommy Douglas . . .

are my favourites.  Go for both :D

I had bible study this morning, and most of the people there are well into their senior years, and conservative-minded members of this rural society, and they got the bus ad thing right away, without any problem.  Kudos again on a great campaign.

I like short catchy phrases so I'll pick one that Omni just posted on another thread  (O.K. Omni?) These are  not for a follow up campaign (been there, done that). I prefer to keep movin' on....! The ads above are fine except the word "religion" may be a turn off as well as "Christian"...lol.

Treat each other as equals

and an old one from New Age:

We are all ONE

P.S. I don't think the word "God" has to be in it since its sponsored by a church.

...don't forget to add that religion has provoked the crisis in the Middle East, caused tensions to mount between India and Pakistan to nuclear proportions and killed countless innocent people during the troubles in Northern Ireland.  Oh, and that's only modern history.

And add to the figures in public life:

Any member of the KKK, Torquemada, The Ayatollah Khomeni, Osama Bin Laden, Pope Pius XII (the Holocaust Pope), any member of the Stern Gang, Ariel Sharon (indicted of war crimes in a Belgian court).

Atheisto, don't forget Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao who caused a bit of trouble themselves even without believing in God!

Can you please keep this thread for people who want to share ideas for their follow up ads? There are several other threads where you can discuss the merits of faith vs. atheism.

Thanks,

Aaron (Admin2)

I was just pointing out the folly of correlating goodness with religion.  If you would prefer to only hear one side of the story then just say so.  There are two sides to this argument but as you mentioned the people above, Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin.....they killed people despite their religion (ie the killing was indiscriminate) whearas the figures I mentioned killed others in the name of their religion.  A small difference, but an extremenly important one.

I couldn't accept the version of religion doing good things as 'Joy' claims. Things like hospitals are built by our taxes. The abolition of slavery came about because of the decency and sense of fairness of many people (and guilty feelings of others). The same goes for prison reform and votes for women. Now 'Joy' might claim that decency and fairness is based on religion. That is a non sequitur. 'Joy' can't rewrite history by claiming god did all the good things without mentioning the bad. 'Atheisto' points out some bad things done in the name of god. It is important to apportion blame as well as praise. Some people who have no religion, no bible, no church, do bad things. And some of those same people do good things. We don't need religion to do good.

tryinghard

"If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake......."

Welcome to the WC and I hope you'll spend some time  here with us.

Let's be honest, a lot of churches were involved in the abolition movement, and a lot were also involved in the slavery movement. The Southern Baptist Convention was created to promote slavery, and they continue to annoy us to this day.

Atheisto, and Admin2

While I agree that the debate over the value of religion belongs in another thread (Point, admin2) there needs to be a discussion about the purpose of the second round of ads purpose (point, Atheisto).

Should we co-opting this campagn to try and get converts.  Really that's what most of those new solgans say.  Come follow our way because.....

The intial ads certainly don't say that, and RevMatt in his debate with some atheists newly attracted to the site went to great lengths to say that he was not trying to prove God or convert them.  We don't hold the burden of proof (thank God, because it is impossible) any more than we accept the atheist's assertion that the possiblity of God is so small that we should abandon the concept.

Is WonderCafe out to cnvince Canadians to make room in their lives for God  OR  is WonderCafe there for people who have a sense of God in their lives and want to find a place to explore it.

I may be violating a basis of union (pretty sure I am), but I'm not here to convert people, I'm here to welcome people to journey in faith, maybe at a UCC, and maybe not.

We risk changing the entire purpose of the program if we go looking for souls to save.

Bassic

Thanks Bassic. Just to be clear, there are no plans at the moment for a follow-up campaign. I'm just interested in hearing what people would add to the "There's probably a God" line. We've received several that show people understand this is an opening for expressing their own beliefs. Here's another one from Deb Bowman in Vancouver:

--------------------------------------------

Already up on our church sign:

[start]

God is.

Now stop worrying and enjoy yourself

Worship at 10:00

All are welcome

[end]

I'll change it to enjoy your life (instead of self) next week - I like that better. People with my personalities don't deal in 'probablies' :-)

It is a great conversational starter as the increase in posts show - now if only we could talk - some ( not all) atheists are coming across as narrow minded as conservative-fundamentalists religious believers.

One example - the end of slavery - while it took a long time it was religious people who lead.... Even Paul started it with treating your slave as a brother - that sure upset the social order of the time.

Historical fact - hospitals emerged out the hospitality of the monks - note the name - yes now they are supported by taxes but in many places ( and still happens) churches started hospitals where there were none and funded them. 

Having worked with King  I remember those christians and Jews who were there first ( true some humanists were there but many were ex christians or jews.)

If the Emerging Spirit team decided to do follow-up ads like those suggested, I'd hope that it would be *without* the WonderCafe connection. The WonderCafe ads have been trying to say, "Here's a place to talk about X, whether or not you agree." The follow-up ads say, "Here is what we believe."

I don't have any difficulty with the UCCan stating some of its many beliefs. I would have a problem if it were under the "WonderCafe" banner.

Christ's peace - r

Religion or faith isn't required for any of the above.  Human kindness is which is independant of religion.  It's a dangerous road to go down to suggest that religion is always a good force in the world as there are plenty of examples to show the complete opposite.  In fact, in a lives lost over lives saved competiton...I think you might find religion comes out as one of the most efficient and lethal reasons for killing that man has ever had.

admin -- do you know how hard it is to NOT engage on this thread re hospitals, etc...i am resisting....resisting....avoiding the pull.... yes..i DID it.

ok...

..i'm not that creative, so someone.

come up with something regarding today's economic times...using the lessons learned around turn the other cheek....(not the watered down version we learned via those who didn't get it...but the social justice call as expressed by Wink.and others.)

oh...or something about...

looking for people who argue about the validty of corporate bailouts, get ticked that the world isn't affirming, recognize that fair trade coffee is only a baby step....then hang out with us.  just coz we have been around for a while doesn't mean we have quit thinkin' or workin' for a better world.

...or human kindness can be found in religion as well as out of it.  Thus the common value that we should be highlighting is "kindness".  There; now we've found some common ground.  Let's build on that rather than trying to tear the other down.

Actually it's not religion, it's fear, hatred, bigotry, tribalism, etc.  Religion is simply a tool we use to exploit these realities.  Sometimes we use the tool for good, and sometimes for bad...cms

From what I've gathered to be the intention of the ads to begin with (as stated by the head of Canada's humanist organization), the point is to tell the scared folks (who worry that they'll fry in hell if they don't believe) that they really don't have to worry too much.... 

The artist/writer from the UK who was the author of the campaign stated (in her interview for CBC's Tapestry, on yesterday) that she was responding to some very scary ads that threathened people with the lake of fire... or some such thing.

So, it seems to me that this particular message really doesn't have to be so contraversial.  It's kind of like she is saying "there is probably no boogey man under the bed so relax and sleep already".  Which is harmless, really...  because it's an interpretation of God that really is damaging... 

BUT, at the same time no one in the Western world would get away with plastering public buses with  "Allah is God, Jesus is not. Now stop praying to him to save you because he's dead"! 

So, in light of all this, here is my 'creative' addition to this very exciting list!

"God is.  Or God is not.  Okay.

And now for something completely different...let's get on with enjoying life."

Agnieszka

you know, i was kind of disappointed in her.

I didn't catch the whole interview; however, did catch a chunk of it.... The part I found disappointing was again the presumption that the fundamentalist in Christianity are the only folks around.....and her presumptions that the faith that she had heard of and denied in her teens was the same faith she would experience as an adult.

dang it...how many teens aren't allowed to grow up in chuches  -- ticks me off.

Thank goodness that our classrooms focus on opening up the youth to the questions, the learning, the midrash, the comparitive religions, the good/the bad / teh ugly of history..and so much more.

oops..sorry admin...

heh, maybe that is another one.

You don't think that your parents had taught you  all you needed to know about sex by 13, why do you think they taught you everything about God?

 cool

Pinga,  I want that one on my church sign!  Sooo true!

How about : "Believe in unicorns instead; there's as much proof for them as god and they won't send you to hell.  Plus they are cuter".

Atheisto: Hey, maybe you can start up a Unicornist Society of Canada and raise some money and, voila, you got yourself a bus ad campaign!  Brilliant!  Go for it!

I have to add though - I think Jesus is pretty hot.

..maybe, but Unicorns are horny.

uhm, now that's a visual and a half...  diiiiiiiiiiiisttttuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrbbbbbbbbiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggg

There is a God. I do enjoy my life.

There is no god.  I do enjoy my life.

Gosh...words are so easy.

Agnieszka and Pinga I like both of yours

There is a God.  There is no god.  If it's something to you, great.   If you don't give a crap, great.

[/quote]

Ditto (e.g., what Agnieszka said). I mean does it really matter what one believes? As Atheisto says, as long as one doesn't try shove anything down my throat. And this goes the same with the atheists. I couldn't care less that people don't believe in god, as long as they don't try shove it down my throat. There are so many bigger issues to resolve in this world, why does this have to be such a big deal.

I have not seen the argument Religion is intrinsically evil that works... yes it is used or misused to create evil..... It is also a bases for doing good. If one studies anthropology one understands that culture creates humanity and religion creates culture (Geertz)  It has both a stasis and dynamic aspect to it, and when it is stasis it is dangerous, and within the trajectory there are built in dynamic functions that revise and clean it up.

It is like hospitals - note the name hospitality - first hospitals came out of some religious tradition of healing - connection between wholeness ( healing) and providing it - in the modern era Monks offered hospitality and this moved into the hospital - the first for sick souls and the next into the whole person to what we now have in some cases the sick body - split of mind and body.

It is true one does not have to be religious to be moral.  Yet when we trace the history of ideas we find a religious base to the beginning conversation.  Ideas do not fall from the air.  They come out of contexts and the early contexts assumed inspired and enchanted sources.   This is descriptive and does not necessarly prove the aim of God in it, but one could argue this.  The point is - religion was a grounding for how the world was seen and it is still operative even if denied ( cf John Gray - the Dark Mass).

Sorry Pan I don't agree. You don't agree that people have been killed for believing in the wrong god?  Many many many times over the years?

How about " There's probably a god, but its a mystery."

Religion does not create morals within people; rather having a relationship with someone who is love inspires it. Jesus is my homeboy, and he daily reminds me how to live and function in righteousness. I am not perfect, and neither is anyone else in life, but God gives us as much influence towards doing right as we are willing to receive. I hope this makes a little sense, atheisto, and i also hope that everyone can keep an open mind about the situation.

Yes people have been killed for believing in the wrong god - and when a religion turns dogmatic there is danger -  and people have been killed in the name of other gods - race, tribalism, nationalism, superior race, marxism, scientism - note the isms are dangerous.

I believe the only examples of killings involving science have been by religious fanatics who thought the science was heresy.

Scientists wear white socks with sandals.  If they killed someone, they might stain their socks, and they hate difficult laundry.  Actually, from the profs I remember, they appear not to do laundry at all.

Seriously, the concept of people killing in the name of science is laughable.

What do mean?  In the history of science they worked with others to kill witches - check your history.

Not to mention that it is science that builds all our weapons...

Atheisto is probably a Christian.

So stop worrying and enjoy your life.

Salem?  The inquisition? They may have happened to be scientists as they may have happened to be beekeepers but they killed in the name of religion.

But it's typically a southern baptist who will pull the trigger. (psych study) 

Wearing white socks with sandals is in itself an indictable offense!

Despite the human ability to enslave or free, harm or heal, engage or oppress, the spirit of God persists, in whatever way we find it.

So stop worrying and enjoy your life, and wish your neighbour well along the way

One of the things that I have noticed is that there are times that those who are down or depressed or having issues stumble their ways into communities....when looking at stats such as who killed someone..we need to ensure we are doing reasonable analysis...ie would they have killed regardless if they were in the community.

Hi guys!

I guess its many eons since I've been on the bus! I had no idea Toronto had religious ads on our transit. Now I understand a bit better why the atheists are doing it. There's a whole group  in Canada devoted to placing Christian ads on buses. Did you guys know this? See the link below:

Stardust, 

Oh yes, we have had the Bus Stop Bible Studies going on for a while here in Toronto.  I travel to work on the TTC, and I see them all the time. 

Generally speaking, they feature a short (or not so short) bible verse, and ask a related question.  They are usually sponsored by local church congregations, often from evangelical denominations. 

But I saw one on the subway last week that was sponsored by the Toronto Police Association, in memory of one of their colleagues.

In all of these case its not religion itself thats to blame.  What religion is used by those in power as a means of control to divide people from each other-- thats where the danger is. 

Pre-French Revolution people as a group used religious differences to identify.  Since that time, nationalism has been a far more potent idea for most people in the West.  I'm not letting religious authority "off the hook" they have been complicit in many crimes but it is nationalism that been far more destructive.  Religion is merely as aspect of national identity.  In Northren Ireland, religious differences didn't cause "The Troubles" the ideologies and the nationalism on both sides did.

What we need to is not to lead by ideology which dehumanizes.

My suggestion for a slogan:

"Don't worry. God loves you anyway."