What do I think? I think you are the kind heart that you are, & you have nailed it girl!

Bolt

Greetings!

"forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us . . ."

I think God always forgives us.

I think we (humankind in general) lack in our forgiveness of one another, but we should always strive, and never give up, in our quest to be forgiving people.  Sometimes easier said than done . . . sometimes it takes us a lifetime.

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

when you look to the cross, how many times has it forgiven you?

70x7 , in other words always

Definitely I think forgiveness is the most important part of christianity.

And, I think the hardest person to forgive is ourselves. If we could learn to do this, it might be easier for us to forgive one another.

Yes, beloved, sometimes it does take a lifetime. I think we all struggle with old hurts.

I never thought of that, but it so True

I can't think of anyone on this site that I haven't forgiven for offending me but I would venture to say that it does not hold the other way with some who have been offended by me.

They say that if you feel that you have forgiven someone who has caused you pain, that when their name is mentioned and you feel a twitch or pain in your innermost, then you probably haven't really forgiven them.

I have to say that there are a few out in the real world that give me that twitch and I pray that I can give them total forgiveness asap.

I have had a person take my house from me that was totally paid off and I have total forgiveness for him. I have since paid my house off again.

I have had a person steal my pension plan from me and I don't give it much thought as I start over again. I get a bit of a twitch from his name but it is diminishing over time as I continue to forgive him and ask forgiveness for me for holding what I do.

It always gets easier as you practice it and you are almost always the one to benefit the most from it.

Be Blessed,

IB

Total forgiveness is paramount to our relationship with God.

Perhaps the question should be; how does one show forgiveness?  Is it acceptance of the behaviour that led to the hurt or acceptance of the person with a requirement that the behaviour will not be repeated?

For me, unconditional forgiveness can be destructive to both parties.  How many times must an abused spouse (note the lack of gender) "forgive" the act of abuse?  Is the act of asking the abuser to leave a lack of forgiveness?  The pressing of charges a sign of vengeance?

IMHO, I think not.  I think that one can, and should, set conditions on the destructive behaviour and that in doing so forgiveness will be achieved by both parties.

LB

Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future.     Paul Boese

Crazyheart,

Someone who waits until Yom Kippur, The Day of Atonement, is a real procrastinator. LMAO

Yom Kippur is about asking God to forgive you what you did to God. God can't take care of other people forgiving you. Before Yom Kippur, you are supposed to apologize to those others. Hopefully it is an everyday thing, apologize when you do it, and not built up until you have a bunch. Though many are procrastinators LOL

First, let me say forgiveness is tantamount in Judaism, without forgivenesss the world cannot go on and that if we refuse to forgive we can't ourselves be forgiven.... it is not easy in Judaism though. The apology requires more that "I am sorry" and the forgiveness requires more than "I forgive you" and "don't worry about it" is completely unacceptable LOL.

That said, an apology is to be offered... to the person. Not asking God to forgive you (unless you are apologizing to God and then you still need to apologize to the one you harmed). Just carrying on, pretending it never happened or being nice later does not cut it. An apology must be offered. It must be an honest one and be sincere and full. A rabbi once told me that the reason is that you cannot truly apologize and not know what you did, what you caused, how you made the other feel...all that goes with it... In other words, "I am sorry" does not cut it. You must know what you are sorry for, why, how you can not do it again.... If you are genuinely apologizing, then you will understand why it may be too soon, too raw, too painful.... If you are genuinely sorry, genuinely understand the pain or anger you caused.... you will understand that the other is justified in being hurt or angry... then you understand it takes time. 

Since your  apology is to be accepted with mind and spirit, you understand that they might not be ready.

You are only bound though to three times of offering an apology. It means your obligation is fulfilled. It does not mean you automatically say "three times, that's it"  because that offers a glimpse at just obeying the law and not being genuinely sorry. The three allows time, the limit of your obligation makes room for someone who is being mean about accepting an apology or is being unforgiving.

The Talmud tells story of a lecture at academy and someone getting hurt. The person who caused the hurt tried unsuccessfully to apologize for 13 years. The purpose of the story is to show that one kept apologizing no matter the 3-time rule, because they were sincere (or thought they were). The story also shows that the apology was not accepted because they had a motivation they were not truly aware they had... not being able to acknowledge that, they could not offer a genuine apology (you must know your motivation) .... So, you understand one continuing to offer the apology... and you also understand the one who does not accept the apology.

On Yom Kippur, it is about forgiveness, but it is about God forgiving what you did that transgressed God. God cannot fully forgive what you do to others.

There is part of a prayer you recite that you be able to forgive, not that others forgive you. You release those who harmed you. You ask God for forgiveness for the things that are Gods. The prayer includes part about your own apologies,  that you understand that it is not done until you appease the other.

In that context, I am able to understand apologies that are lacking not being accepted. I understand that if someone has not truly reckoned with their own secrets, they cannot explicitly acknowledge something, forgiving may harm them more than help them. I understand apologies being incomplete. Apology, even sincere ones, are about forgiveness, but they are also about remorse and the process of teshuva, of repentance. If the forgiveness is too easy, given before it is asked for... it helps create those who hurt thinking they can be forgiven... it helps someone avoid  why they do what they do.... it does not teach.

So, I understand Jews having trouble with Catholic apology or aboriginals having trouble with church apology. Can you extend forgiveness to someone/some body if there has been no true reckoning on their part? Until there is no attempt at avoidance of blame, can an apology be accepted? If there is avoidance of blame or responsibility or excuses made... has an apology really been made? If responsibility is being avoided, can it be accepted? Is it an apology? Does it miss the point of not only apology, but also remorse, repentance...?

In couple's counselling, we had trouble around this area. The wife was confused. She was used to "I am sorry" being enough, genuinely meant or not. She said "I am sorry" and it meant she was sorry it started, sorry it got to that point, sorry about some things... she was not fully sorry. I needed to know what she was sorry for. She would try and it would reveal she was not really sorry for what hurt me or angered me... she was basically sorry for herself and apologizing for her not for me(she was apologizing for what she thought she did that hurt me or angered me, without finding out what it was for me). That did not work.

We learned that for me "I am sorry" is a complete sentence in that it does not get "but" added after it... there is no making light of the events or someone's feelings, no offered excuses, no moved responsibility, no shifted or lessened blame.... That said, "I am sorry" offered as a stand alone sentence does not cut it. It requires knowing what you are sorry for, how I felt, why I am hurt/angry.... thinking about how it can be avoided in the future.

Our counsellor laughed that a rabbi could help as much, because she was teaching my wife to do it the Jewish way, not because the counsellor was Jewish, but because it is the way of effective communication and the way she was trained to do couple's counselling.

There is another little thing, Judaism teaches not to forgive those who deliberately hurt with the thought they can do so and be forgiven.

Hi Crazyheart.

Does forgiveness exist in a vaccuum?

I don't believe that it can.  I could, if I so chose, allow forgiveness to exist purely within the confines of my mind.  That would change, of necessity the way I dealt with you or others in conflict but what would be communicated to you?  Would you know that you had offended?  Is it fair that I keep that knowledge from you?  Do you grow when you percieve that your words make no impact either for good or ill?

How does our relationship grow and mature if I withhold from you knowledge that would help you to grow and mature?

Repentance is intimately linked with forgiveness and carries the concept of turning away from to stand alongside of.  So the repentant individual moves from standing nose-to-nose to standing shoulder to shoulder.  Combatants become comrades.  Opposition becomes union.

In light of that action forgiveness becomes the glue which keeps shoulder to shoulder.

This is where things become interesting.  Apology is a word that does not exist at all in the entire expanse of scripture.  And that is not simply a choice made by translators.  It doesn't exist because there is no use of the correlational words in either the Greek or the Hebrew language.

While modern useage does allow for apology to be defined as, "an expression of regret for having caused trouble." That definition does not fit the origin of the word it is, in fact a later addition which erodes the meaning of the word.

Apology is defence or justification and when that is know one can easily understand why it never appears in scripture.  Apology is not a shifting of stance.  It is the entrenching of stance.  Apology at its roots is not turning to stand alongside it is continuing to stand opposed.

Which makes it very problematic.

It can, thanks to modern useage be used to indicate a willingness to stand alongside or a willingness to stand opposed.  The only way that one would be able to know for certain which useage is intended by apology is to assess the actions of the one's using it.

One of those actions is of a positive relational nature which forgiveness works best in.  The other of those actions is a negative relational nature in which forgiveness becomes invitation to continue abuse.

Is forgiveness an absolute?

Sinning against the Holy Spirit is, according to Jesus unforgiveable.  That at the very least seems to shatter the notion of forgiveness being absolute if nothing else.

What do we do with Jesus' teaching concerning the brother who sins against you from Matthew 18:  15-17?

While I do not for a minute believe that what Matthew's gospel counsels in 18:  17 is open animosity I am convinced it is a separation from the community.  I also note that this action taken comes about when the one who has sinned refuses to listen.  Which isn't terribly specific when it comes to defining what is meant by that.

Following hot on the heals of that passage is the parable of the unmerciful servant which adds another spin on the topic of forgiveness and also provides a challenge to the notion of forgiveness as absolute.

In the parable one servant begs and pleads for forgiveness and it is granted.  That particular servant then takes a fellow servant to task and treats him horribly.  When that is discovered the King who had initially wanted to settle accounts with him and had forgiven him. 

The parable makes it quite clear that this servant's debt was cancelled.  It no longer exists.

And yet, the outraged King tosses the unmerciful servant in jail and orders that he be tortured until he was able to pay back all that he owed.

However; one chooses to interpret this particular parable it appears that the King has the freedom and the authority to cancel an individual's debts and still torture them in prison till they are paid.

There is probably some leeway in that for some creative theology to happen.  Still, it demonstrates that forgiveness is not an absolute.

What is the purpose of forgiveness?

I believe the purpose of forgiveness is to reconcile.  If that is the purpose then reconciliation can only happen when two who are estranged desire to have that separation between them erased.

That requires two to have the same purpose or desire.

Can reconciliation happen when only one participant is willing?

Can, for example, someone who has been abused forgive their abuser?  Certainly they can.  Is there a reconciliation?  Only if that is what both want and are willing to work toward.  If the abuser continues to abuse there is no reconciliation.

It would appear that forgiveness, as an act of grace, is not something that is simple.

Grace, as an absolute becomes license.  It is permission to do whatever one wants and it does not build relationships that are healthy.  Justice, as an absolute becomes vengeance.  It is merciless and it exacts a heavy price even for the merest slip.  Grace and Justice exist in harmony meaning one or the other is possible it is the discernment of the judge which determines which is required.

There is, I am convinced, nothing in Creation more beautiful than grace.  There is nothing, I am equally convinced, that renders Creation more ugly than grace abused.

I wish grace for all to the extent that they will profit from it and by it.  For some that grace will not be given so easily as to render it cheap.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Pressing charges, leaving for a shelter, etc. do not preclude forgiving and forgiveness does not preclude any of the above either.. Forgiveness =\= going back to the way things were, but rather going on with your life and part of that is ensuring that the situation being forgiven isn't going to happen again. That life may, in fact, not include the person you forgave, and the act of forgiveness exists not to "roll back the clock" but to set the stage for life to continue on a new level with an awareness of both what happened and the forgiveness. Forgiven, not forgotten. That said, the goal in the situation you describe is not to lead the abused to forgiveness, but to safety and help with necessities. Once that is achieved, then we can work on forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not a big issue for me. I am often the victim of a villain. On the other hand I probably had it coming to me because I have also been a villain.

I attempt to interact with others by understanding our needs and working accordingly.

It is often difficult to show good judgement to others when we are jealous and covet what they have. 

The upshot is I guess forgiveness is necessary if we are going to resume a relationship. At least it is better than attempting to figure out who was right and who was wrong.

From what I've read above it appears the adults would be wise to seek counsel from someone that is able to separate the issues and offer a fresh perspective, as StevieG mentioned, to assist with determining the motivation. And I like what revjohn said about not rendering grace cheap. I think it would be a disservice to those involved to minimize the "ripple effect" of a wrong that had been festering to the point that all you are saying sorry for is the wound and not the whole infection.

Too often I've easily forgiven but have found that when it's too easily given, I  would build a temporary wall, "just in case" they do it again. Whereas you wouldn't have to do this if true reconciliation and a deeper understanding had been achieved. Authentic forgiveness, I think is miraculous and includes God's counsel.

Wow I never thought of the fact that we have to forgive ourselves. I have always made sure that I forgive others even though sometimes it takes me a while I always work on it until I do. As well I do beleive that God forgives us of everything that we could ever do. However never did I ever think about how we need to forgive ourselves and now that I do I realize there are somethings I never have forgiven myself for and I think it would be the harderst thing imaginable for me to try and forgive myself for them. Thanks for sharing this insight crazyheart it has really made me think.

For myself, forgiveness is a very hard thing to do - not just mouthing the "I'm sorry" words but really working on it.

In fact their have been times, when I think the old hurt is over and forgiveness has been given and then some small thing will make it raise its ugly head.

Yeah, I know what you mean, it is a constant work in progress. I forgive all, but there are times when the same people proceed to do things that when they do, unforgiveness trys to get my heart bitter when it raises it's ugly head, & I have to shake my head & confirm the choice I made to forgive, & I just say

"satan you're dead with my heel on your head"

I say this three times & any feeling of bitterness leaves me.

I guess I'm in no small way taking out my frustrations on satan!LOL.

But in reality, any unforgiveness I believe to be a work of satan so I use the "battle call".

I know that some of you may think it's a drastic measure to do this, but it realy works!

Bolt

Good topic Crazyheart.

I am not sure that people actually forgive.  I am not sure that God actually forgives.  If God actually forgave why did Jesus have to die on the cross?  If God actually forgives then even if Jesus died on the cross some are still going to hell.

Yet Jesus commands us to forgive and we are told in Scripture that God forgives us.  Can Jesus command us to do what God does not do either?  Does God not choose who He will forgive like any human? 

Isn't that a contradiction?  We have to forgive everyone and God does not?  Indeed is not repentance a work and it is by grace alone that we are supposed to get into Heaven?

Sorry Crazyheart.  I have answered your question with more questions.  

serena, that's what WonderCafe is all about.

      You raise a very good point.

       For any christian that says that IF YOU DON"T (LA DA DA LA DA DE DA) you will go to hell! Is not led by the Holy Spirit. This is the way I see it.

It is for God or more importantly Jesus Who will be judge & He has the power to see into the heart of man.

So as far as judgent it is He Who makes the call.

We can use scripture to examine what it is that God requiers from us in our end of the covenant, as there are conditions to the promises of the covenant.

There is no condition to his grace & love though as this is what God is about, love  grace, & compassion to mankind.

He has no love, grace, or compassion for satan though, & the sad truth is, we can either accept satans deception in this life we live, or we can accept God's love, grace, & compassion. This is a covenant of free will choice just like all the others.

You may say what is the choice? Are all who don't know Jesus Christ going to hell?

I would say the only Jesus can answer that & it is a message that should be determined within one self between God & the indevidual as like I said Jesus looks into the heart of man to make His judgement of justice & mercy, with the utmost of compassion that mankind for the most part doesn't quite have a full understanding of.

Like what was stated in the scripture you provide, Romans 9:15 God will have mercy & compassion on whom he chooses.

So who are we to say if someone is going to hell?

       To get the most from a personal relationship with God one must take a honest look at scripture especially the teaching of the New Testament & carefully look within your heart & see how close you are to a better understanding of God's creation in you.

The spiritual man is what is the key. Being sealed with the firebrand of the Holy Spirit is the key, when it is in your life to a point where you take it's instruction, it is so evident to you that there is no doubt that this is where God want's you to be. But if it isn't in alignment with scripture, then one would have to look closer within ones heart again make shure deception doesn't creep in.

Sometimes when the flesh or carnal nature gets in the way of the spiritual man if we choose to entertain the carnal nature.

Unforgiveness is a Huge stumbling block for anyone who wishes to be in a spiritual communion with Christ. this is Paramount to our relasionship with God.

If you can't forgive, then you judge yourself as Jesus can't forgive you.

 This goes back to the "what you sow, so you shall reap"  & also "judge not or ye shall be judged" referances in scripture.

Forgiveness is serious buisness indeed!

Bolt

If you provide unqualified forgiveness, there is zero reason for anyone to change the behavior requiring foregiveness.

Mistakes can be made and foregiveness can be earned.

Forgiveness without reason is irrational and perpetuates behaviors that require..... foregiveness.

LL&P

SPock 

This is where you fail in seeing the true meaning of forgiveness Spock.

To Forgive is an act of love, this act actually frees both people invoved of any form of a collaberation with the carnal man, thus satan's character.

It is satan's character to not forgive, He hates God & anything that God loves satan hates.

Now I know you don't believe in such things spock, but I'm using these examples as & don't realy know how else to explain it.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is through love that we become more in tune with God, as God is Love & mercy & compassion.

With this love it is meant to teach love, & fulfill it,

If someone chooses to reject an act of forgiveness that is up to them, & if forgiveness doesn't make an impression on them enough to reveil the character or love of God, & teach them the difference between love & law. Then it is their misfortune.

But for a Christian to refuse forgiveness is a huge flaw of character, if a Christ like character is your goal. Which is what a Christian is, to be Christ like.

Bolt

Bolt,

So "forgiveness is an act of love" ?

Semantics. Instead of a personal poetic interpretation, let's use common defintions so's we don't get all confusey.

It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of clear communication. You can speak to yourself all day about "god, love, mercy, etc", but it's a pretty small room.

LL&P

Spock

What it is to you, it is to you. What it is to me, it is to me.

How does that grab ya?!

This is how I see it! LOL

Bolt

I think I'm closest to Muskoka on this. Maybe a bit further. And it's because of how one thinks of forgiveness.

If forgiveness means - forget it. it's okay - then we should save ourselves a lot of time and self righteousness and just forget about it. If the thing done is so trivial and so easily forgotten, they is really no point in forgiving in the first place, - and no virtue in forgiving - and Jesus was wasting his time including it in His prayer.

Similarly, to insist the other person must ask for forgiveness and must repent is insufferably, self righteously judgemental and arrogant. I have no interest in the forgiveness that comes from some arrogant ass who would think like that.

Forgiveness cannot mean it's okay. If were so okay, there would be no need to forgive it in the first place.

Forgiveness is, surely, our recognition that we are all of us pretty faulty pieces of machinery. It is our recognition that those who do wrong do not do so simply out a wilful inbred evil. Forgiveness means we do not condemn the person as evil and worthless, but recognize the offence as the result of our human weakness and error.

That makes it possible for us, in practical terms, to consider ways to deal with the error. It is, for example, quite possible one could forgive - but also place the offender in close confinement because he is still a danger to others, and we have no other means of containing that danger.

Forgiveness does not mean okay. It means let us try to deal with this in some way that provides a practical solution. Let us do it without hatred and anger and revenge. Let us be rational.

So whether the offender asks to be forgiven is irrelevant. Nor are we necessarily being virtuous in forgiving. We are doing what the scriptures so often are telling us to do - but which we lose because we are so busy wrapping it up in vague notions of sunday school spirituality. The scriptures are telling us to deal with problems in a way that works. And fogiveness works. Commonly, revenge and anger don't.

graeme

Some of these responses have helped me to understand a couple of issues that I have forgiving key people in my life.  SG, thanks in particular.

You see, I hadn't expected an apology.   In the past, I had forgiven the behaviour, pretending it hadn't happened, & moved on, without the individual ever naming what the injustice was....or me accepting their apology.   In fact, in one situation, the person just started smiling & talking to me, after 3 years of shunning....and we were all to just pretend the previous 3 years had not happened.

Interesting, I think this is thread I will come back to and reflect upon.  Thanks CH for starting it.

If someone dumps garbage into a river, then apologizes, is it the Christian thing to forgive them?

If they then dump garbage into a river, then apologize, do we forgive them again?

.... and again?

...and again?

Does foregiveness work, as Graeme states??

Seems all irrational to me.

LL&P

Spock

The practice of forgiveness is not simply a one-time action or an isolated feeling or thought. Forgiveness involves us in a whole way of life that is shaped by an ever-deepening friendship with God and with other people. The central goal of this practice is to reconcile, to restore communion - with God, with one another, and with the whole creation.

L. Gregory Jones writes, "Forgiveness works through our ongoing willingness to give up certain claims against one another, to give the truth when we access our relationships with one another, and to give gifts of ourselves by making innovative gestures that offer a future not bound by the past."

quoted from:

http://practicingourfaith.com/prct_forgiveness.html

Would you give up the claim for a clean river, by forgiving the polluter in my example?

That is just plain stupid, isn't it?

LL&P

SPock

Forgiveness is not for the forgiven, but for the forgiver. All this tripe about what it allegedly does for the person being forgiven is nothing more than rationalization for feeling smugly superior.

I forgive the person, but not the behaviour. I make a clear distinction between the behaviour, and the person committing the behaviour.

As such, I'm not prepared to to see myself as a victim and put up with repeated bad behaviour. If the behaviour  keeps happening, at best I maintain a superficial relationship - (usually with a relative!) or choose to no longer relate to that person.

I try and keep in mind that the behaviour is often the result of different values.

A reason for me to forgive the person is so I can get on with my life - bitterness does no-one any favours.

Also, it's nice to be forgiven when we ourselves act badly - and we do folks!

Porviding & accepting forgiveness & accepting bad behavior are two different things altogether, if one cannot disern one from the other well, then I believe this to be a character flaw as well.

You can break the law & if is it is a victim crime the victim can forgive the person but is the law of no effect if the penalties are undertaken?

That is why there is law, it is here for it's reasons, & forgiveness is here for it's reasons.

Bolt

I would love one of the studied to respond to this thread, using the theological reflection as done by Walter Wink's...which helped to show some of the political action of forgiveness where power is shifted, especially in regards to oppressor/oppressed. 

CH, I think there is quite a difference between forgiveness when one is in a relationship, then forgiveness between those in power and those not.

I don't quite understand why you say this. Are you saying that one who offers forgiveness to another is doing so because they feel superior?

Bolt

Not speaking for Ergo Ratio, above, but....

...a charitable person feels good about giving. Whether the recipient is helped or not doesn't matter...

...a forgiving person feels good about forgiving. Whether the recipient cares or not doesn't matter...

As ERatio said, it just makes you all feel smugly superior. It does nothing for the situation itself.

LL&P

Spock

See, for me, forgiveness is for both participants. It should be as important for the transgressor as it is for the transgressed upon. It is about establishing, re-establishing, restoring... right relationship (being right with others) and geting right in ourselves 

Examples of what I mean

If I call my wife a dumb ass (Trust me, I don't, I would not be able to type if I had  LOL) ... if she pretends it did not happen, we know it may fester in her. But, what do I learn? If she buries it deep and I believe she is fine when she is not, we know it may come up later. What stress does that place on us? Is it fair for me to not know and be in trouble at some point later for it? Would you lecture or discipline a child for something they did a month ago and do not recall doing?

Her telling me, sharing... naming it... is about her. It is not simply about her feeling better.  It is about letting me know expectations, boundaries, etc... It is also about taking measures that her tomorrow might be better than the today.

If she does not tell me, I not only cannot apologize. I cannot repent. I cannot change. I cannot learn... It is about me.

In fact, many times it is more about what we want another to know, learn, understand... than it is about the hurt, anger or pain inflicted. 

It also offers insights that may not available without this exchange.

If she tells me and I poo-poo her, what does that say to her about me? If I refuse to apologize? If I apologize without knowing how it made her feel, will I understand enough to not do it again? Will I do something very similiar without connecting emotional dots and how it might make her feel again?

Complete, understanding apology (communication) really enables complete and understanding forgiveness (communication) and restoring of right relations or the ending of relations rightly.  

Sometimes there cannot be communication. That makes forgiveness harder IME (in my experience) It does not make it impossible.

Forgiveness, to me, is not about forgetting. It is also not about it even "being ok" or "being alright". It is not about minimizing or justifying the wrong. My thoughts go to my fathers murder, events of my life and those of my grandparents and the Shoah... I cannot forget. It is not ok. There is no justifying it. Does that mean there can be no forgiveness?  If we think forgiveness hinges on those things like 'it is ok"  ...

Yet, for me, it does not.  It is about compassion. I can understand that broken people do broken things. I can see my own brokenness. In that, there is forgiveness. I can see my shoulder along theirs, even if I would cross the street if I saw them coming. It is not always about restoring right relationship. Sometimes, it is about ending relations rightly.

Hi Serena,

The answer to that question would greatly depend upon the model of atonement that is in play.

That would depend on whether or not you held to a universalist position when it comes to forgiveness.

I don't think so.  We are commanded to love.  We are not commanded to forgive.  Love is biblically portrayed as Truth, Justice and Mercy.  Only Mercy speaks to forgiveness.

What we are told with respect to our personal forgiveness is that the standard we apply to others is the standard we set for ourselves.  Forgive us as we forgive.

God does choose though I expect his decision to forgive or not forgive is as clouded as we humans tend to be.

Only if forgiveness is an absolute.

Repentance is indeed a work ans we are saved by grace alone so whether we forgive or not does not affect our standing before God.

What it does affect is the way that we choose to stand with each other.  It is part of the "Love of neighbour" commandment from Jesus' big two.  The other parts being manifest as truth and justice.  Neither of which require forgiveness nor repentance to be effective though both may lead to repentance which is appropriately met with forgiveness.

Wisdom was often thought to be reflected more by the questions we ask than it was by the answers we give.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Revjohn you said in another thread that "the elect" were already chosen before creation. Is forgiveness only for this world then and holds no bearing on entering God's kingdom?

RevJohn wrote "We are commanded to love.  We are not commanded to forgive."

I would disagree on this. In the Lord's Prayer, we are taught to pray "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us." It is in the grammatical form of the imperative- a command. Forgiveness is not optional. It is how we love.

Spock asked "Would you give up the claim for a clean river, by forgiving the polluter in my example?"

To offer forgiveness when there is no recognition of wrong, and no expectation of justice & healing is cheap grace. It solves nothing. It would be an abdication of reconciliation. It would be the Christian equivalent of wearing a 'kick me' sign. Jesus doesn't ask us to wear such a sign. Cheap grace is the enemy of true religion. The call for justice demands a clean river. Forgiveness would be the way to heal the relationship so we could clean the river together.

Hi waterfall,

That would be my argument yes.

Forgiveness is primarily for the here and the now not the then and the when.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The trouble with forgiveness is that it pre-supposes judgement, holding a grudge or taking offense.

After the Yom Kippur service, a group of men stood outside the synagogue, and one of them said to his friend: "I forgive you."

"Why?" said the other, surprised. "What have I ever done to merit your forgiveness?"

One word led to another, and the two parted as enemies.

Mistakes are necessary learning experiences; making mistakes is a vital part of the creative process. In our anxious avoidance of mistakes, we Christians tend to be imitative rather than creative. Christian culture, with its heavy emplasis on judgement, forgiveness, and avoidance of mistakes, encourages imitativeness and discourages creativeness.

To err is human—seeing that there is nothing to forgive is divine.

Hi RevJamesMurray,

Ooooooh Theological Smackdown with RevJamesMurray.  You got lucky on Facebook.    Let's get ready to rumble.

Of course you are free to disagree.  I think you've been a bit sloppy and given me a huge opening.  One I will in no way not press to my advantage.

No question.  We are given those words in the second petition.

Rookie mistake James.

The imperitival tense is the tense of command.  It is also the tense of request.

If we are to view the second petition as the imperitive of command we are not asking to be forgiven we are demanding that God forgive us and I rather think we humans are not in a position where we can enforce any demands against God.

If we are to view the second petition as the imperitive of request we are not demanding that God forgive us we are asking for God to forgive us and we are asking that the standard for that forgiveness be on par with the standards that we apply to others.

We are free to set the standard as high or as low as we wish bearing in mind that the harder we make it for others to succeed the harder we make it for ourselves to succeed.

Forgiveness is optional precisely because it is but one way through which we love.  It should never be quickly or easily moved from the primary vehicle for love.  Truth and Justice are also valid expressions of love and each have their moments when they deliver love more readily and effectively than does grace.

Those moments may be few and far between but they exist.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I think that the model of atonement I use by default is the Jesus had to die for our sins one.

Meaning that we can't understand God and He does not explain Himself.

So there are no absolutes?

What about the parable of the unmerciful servant?  If we do not forgive others than God does not forgive us.

Hi Serena,

Well.  You can continue to crab about the one you have or you could trade it in for another.  You decide.

There is nothing wrong with being undecided.  So long as that undecidedness plays out.  If you are undecided but you act as if decided then you aren't being honest with yourself or others.

Jesus does not command us to forgive 70X7 times.  He tells Peter that is how many times he has to forgive his brother.  Why is Peter asking the question?  Because Peter wants divine justification for the hard feelings he has toward his brother.  He wants to know what his legal obligation to his brother is before he van not forgive him.

The number provided by Jesus would be an actual literal number but take a look for a moment at the repetition of the number 7 and think more about what is going on.  Jesus is not telling Peter 490 times you can forgive but on the 491st time curse him to hell.

Jesus is telling Peter that forgiveness should always be the first consideration, that there should always be a readiness to forgive.  He does not say "always" primarily because there are things that cannot be forgiven (ie., the sin against the Holy Spirit).

Forgiveness is not absolute.  Love is.  Forgiveness is a path through love.

That is not a command it is a request.

Being Sovereign has its advantages.

Love in its fullest is absolute.

That is a remarkable parable.  Remarkable in that it has a King who is merciful to servant A initially and who then is just to servant A by the end of the parable.

When Servant A is forgiven his debt is erased.  He no longer owes the King.

When servant A is later thrown in prison he will not be released until his debt is paid in full.

Which debt are they talking about?

The LORD's prayer is a wonderful lense on this parable I think.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Revjohn,So when Jesus died and said,"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" why does Jesus want God to forgive us for our sins if he has already chosen who gets to enter heaven? What was the crucifixion about then?

I would like to hear your thoughts on those who don't want forgiveness and those who don't want to give it in a particular scenario. Where does the burden lay then?

"To offer forgiveness when there is no recognition of wrong, and no expectation of justice & healing is cheap grace. It solves nothing. It would be an abdication of reconciliation. It would be the Christian equivalent of wearing a 'kick me' sign. Jesus doesn't ask us to wear such a sign. Cheap grace is the enemy of true religion. The call for justice demands a clean river. Forgiveness would be the way to heal the relationship so we could clean the river together."

Struggling to understand this forgiveness thread.   How does forgiveness work in childhood abuse cases?  The abuser got away with his bad behavior.  The child suffers until dealing with his/her emotional wounds.  The abuser is not repentant, doesn't ask for forgiveness, is unavailable for dealing with through the courts.  I can't see any way they can 'heal the relationship and clean the river together'.

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the machinery.  (Yes, I've had too much coffee today.  Blast McDonald's free coffee promotion!).  Does 'forgiveness' preclude or exclude any notion of retribution?  Donald Trump in his book THINK BIG AND KICK ASS in business and life advocates "When somebody screws you, screw them back in spades"; and "Forgive good people, but never forgive someone who is bad".  In church, in business, in education, in politics, and in any area of life or place of employment, we all meet people who are 'serial bullies' who prey on others and assume no one is going to get them.  Donald Trump also says, "If someone knows they made a mistale and they apologize, forgive them and move on, but never trust them again".  (p. 199).  Do you forgive others BEFORE you get even, or after?  Do you turn the other cheek, and then clobber them?  Have YOU ever sought revenge against someone who harms you?  Has anyone ever gotten even with you for screwing them around?  Just curious.  (I repent of the copious coffee I had this morning, and have decided to forgive myself and walk it off.  TTYL.)

Hi Waterfall,

If we operate under the paradigm that it is our sin which nails Jesus to the cross it is not the sin of actually nailing Jesus to the cross that Jesus is asking God to forgive.  It is all sin.

Forgiveness is for the here and now not the then and when.  Jesus is not asking for God to forgive them at a later date he is asking for forgiveness to flow immediately.  Note also that Jesus has the strength to ask God to forgive them but he doesn't articulate that he has forgiven them.

Will Jesus forgive them?  As God forgives them Jesus will forgive them.  At the moment Jesus was busy giving up the ghost so to speak.

The crucifixion of Jesus is an act of Redemption.  It allows for a value to be placed on life, specifically, our lives.  Jesus is the sole agent of Redemption and all that are redeemed are redeemed to God.

The cross alone only has the power to kill.  It has the power to destroy life and all the sin that life contains.

Only God has the power to raise up what death has brought low.  The cross takes care of our sin and us.  The resurrection gives us back our lives, without the sin.  Life is redeemed not simply by the shed blood or death upon the cross but by the resurrection to life.

The cross frees us from sin but it doesn't free us from death, in fact, the cross rather guarantees death, that is what it is designed to do.  Life comes to us by an act of God's grace.

Well that really would depend a lot on the theological overlay that you were working with.  I believe that the crucifixion is about redemption, the valuing of those who belong to God and will have a place in the coming kingdom of God.

Grace and peace to you.

John

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