I do think there is another side to this.

Most churches will not charge anyone who feels they cannot afford it.  In the first case you mentioned it was suggested.  I don t know of anyone who has ever been turned away for lack of funds at any dinner or luncheon.

For those in the church there is a great deal of fellowship that usually goes into getting these things ready.  If we have a craft sale it is usually in the local school gym along with many other organizations.  I even work at the craft-baking sale.  It is a great way to spend time with friends and engage others in conversation and not usually about religion.

Add to that the fact that we clearly indicate to people where the money is going.  Our auction sale usually goes to the local food bank and the school lunch program.  We do have a building fund and if that is what the money raised is for it is well advertised.  We have nothing hidden. 

Shalom

Mate 

Hi Serena - actually, in my church most people don't 'tithe' in terms of giving that specific percentage (10% I think it is) on a regular basis.  People give what they can manage - some give much more, some less, some give time instead of money as that is what they can offer. 
 

We do often have fundraising events - and other events where free-will offerings/donations are accepted.  I think we have a goal of raising about $20K this year through such events.  Nobody would ever be excluded tho from events on the basis of payment.  We've often paid for or subsidized kids on trips etc. as well - all done discretely.

As I've gotten older, I've come to understand my donations and givings from a slightly different perspective - in earlier days, I had a 'market' perspective as you've reflected above.  Now, I give as generously as I can, because I believe in and want to support what's going on in my church, and elsewhere.  In fact, I was quite surprised to get my tax receipt recently and see the amount I had given - I would have estimated it to be less.

Serena - I understand you.  In fact in the early days on the Cafe I believe I had a thread about this. 

First off - fund raising should be up-front.  No invitation to soup or lunch after church and then hit with a charge at the door.  If donations are taken, it should be announced ahead of time or mentioned in the bulletin.  And perhaps the donation can should be unmanned and back by the coffee pot.  Having a table set up by the door and two people sitting there watching would be rather intimidating to those who don't have anything to donate.  However, even then I have been guilty of giving less than the 'suggested' donation.  I might throw in a toonie and change rather than a $5.   In your case with your foster children I would have simply paid $5 for myself and taken the foster kids in anyway.  They should be everyone's responsibility.

If there is a special rate for a family, the people involved should be the ones to decide what constitutes their family.  At a recent pancake supper I decided that my husband and I, our daughter, and our grandson were a family group and I paid accordingly.  At a previous church I was told that a family has to all live under one roof, so for that event under protest I paid separately for myself, my daughter and her children, and her step-granddaughter who was with them for her 'every-second-weekend' visit. 

Strictly fund-raising events - if that is the sole purpose - whatever the market will pay.  However if they are also for fellowship and community building then the price should be reasonable. 

The idea that no one is turned away for inability to pay - doesn't hold water.  Maybe the destitute will come anyway and explain their situation, but for those who have to make choices - pay for lunch after church on Sunday and skip coffee at work all week - or send a child to summer camp and the rest of the family cancel their weekend activities - it is a harder choice.  We don't all want to air our financial situations in public.

I've learned to be upfront.  When someone tried to sell me a ticket to a two day seminar that I would have dearly loved to attend but it cost $99, I told him that it would depend on whether I got any work between now and then.  He didn't offer me a free ticket or one at a reduced rate.

No, neither do I.  But do we know how many people could NOT come because of the price and just did not come.

I get that fundraising is a part of life and a necessary one at that.  But to be invited to stay for dinner and then charged?  I don't think that is very hospitable.

I don't know maybe if they clearly advertise that the "spaghetti supper" or whatever it is is a fundraiser.  But after Church on Sunday morning I don't know. 

We do toonie lunches all the time -->  People ask what is a reasonable amount to give, and my comment is...look at it however you wish....it could be whatever you would pay for lunch today...or whatever you feel it is worth to you or...whatever you would like to offer. 

If you are someone who goes to a fancy brunch, then offer that amount. If you go home and have a can of soup, then offer that amount.....

For those who desire, we provide offering envelopes.

We've also had folks give a hundred dollars for a cup of soup, and those who give us a toonie.  All is welcome.

The luncheon is designed to be

** a fellowship meal, where we break bread together.

** an opportunity for education

** an opportunity to raise runds through people offering their time & talents

Serena:  if you would rather go to McDonalds then go....

Personally, I have found that the pie at churches are homemade and worth eating, as compared to the junk for sale in grocery stores or mass made... 

Seeler:  We price things based on the cost, but put a ntoe that money should never be a barrier, and that we do have funds. The difficulty is that people don't say they need it, rather, they limit their participation.  We have also tried making everything free and stating that the cost is $xx, and that donations to offset the cost of your own and/or others enrollment is gratefully appreciated.  The two are separate.  It is difficult to do the accounting, and we are still learning. If you have suggestions of how to do this better I would appreciate it (by wondermail if you prefer)

This thread is not specifically about tithing but I welcome the tangent.     

I am not into things enough to know about tithing at my Church. 

There were no tax receipts for the $5 donation.  I don't know about the pancake supper because I was working out at the gym and my friends went to the free pancake supper at the Anglican Church.   I understand giving generously if you support the ministry but what if you don't support the ministry.  I guess just stay away I guess.

Serena...you are in a fine mood these days....

I'm not sure exactly why you expect there to NOT be a request for money.  The food did cost money.  At most, the donations cover the cost.  I have been to many of these donation lunches and for eveyone who gives the suggested amount, many more give less, or nothing.

And I guarantee one thing, the food will be a lot healthier than MacDs.

IT

Russ

seeler: 

For such a program as you mentioned, we would not expect someone to pay full. There is a fund to tap into.  That fund is very large right now, in part, because it wasn't offered to people.  Our community lost about because of that.  Lay training (as well as staff training) is important to the health of the community.

In an ideal world folks would pay based on the following breakdown: 1/3 local, 1/3 wider church, 1/3 individual, with the 1/3 individual cost being able to be covered for those who required it.

We haven't asked for funds from wider church funding areas, and are now learning how to do so for those programs which make sense to do so.

we are a family of 5, times are tough. my spouse and i make a good wage, but there have been factors as of late, bus strike, gas prices, kids winter clothing, medical fees, car maitinace, ect that have put a strain on our finances.

 At our church (kanata united) whenever there has been a lunch/supper there has been a free will offering basket in a dicreet place. I like this. there was a time or two when $5 was all we literaly could spair, other times we've contributed more.

cheers,

jh

JH

I feel a kinship, we have "your" Peter.

If you're ever in the area of EUC, drop in for Coffee and Conversation and I'll buy you a mug full.

IT

Russ

Your church would be hard-pressed to consider it a donation as you are receiving something in return for the money (thus not a donation).  We tend to throw around the word donation but it cannot be co-erced or given with the expectation of something in return...cms

I can remmember when I was first appointed at the church where I was for 10 years. There was no fundraising. They had money in the bank, cattle on the range. Now some14  years later, they have to fund raise to stay afloat. What happened in 14  years ? Even people that bring to the fowl supper and work at the fowl supper have to buy a ticket. There are no freebies . 

I was going to chime in with the same thing.  A tax receipt can 't be issued if you receive something.  You can pay $100 to attend a dinner that costs $35/plate and get a tax receipt for the difference but if you buy a donated item you cna't get a tax receipt for that.  However, the donor can if they can show the value of the item.

There are differences I think in whether a dinner is for fundraising or just community building.

A pancake supper could be either.  One church might use it as a midwinter fundraiser and that is with the knowledge of all involved.  Perhaps they are targetting a homeless shelter for a midwinter donation.

On the other hand a church might only want to recoop it's costs, hence the gie what you want basket, or it might be getting the dinner donated by the members for free, hence the "no cost" dinner.

A church might also have a big ticket dinner to raise significant funds though the dinner, the auction, the silent auction the raffle......  that type of dinner wiill necessarily exclude those who can't afford it but is a valuable way of raising money.

I have worked as a professional fundraising consultant, so I'm always interested in the tactics used by non-profit organizations to get donations.  I attended a church once that wanted to raise funds for a mission project.  The meal was FREE and a box was placed on a table if anyone wanted, discreetly, to give a donation.  Anyone who wanted a receipt could put a cheque in with their address.  The box was placed so no one could see who was, or wasn't, donating.  At first, some suggested selling tickets at $5 each.  By leaving it up to the individual, with no pressure, over three times as much was raised for the mission project.  Suggested donations might backfire for the next time.  The assumption that "it's for a good cause, so we can rip you off" doesn't fly and can have a negative impact in public relations.

cjms, if a person donates a piano to the church and wants a tax recept. I think the piano would have to be appraised and then a tax receipt  issued. Here is where I have problems. If someone donates a piano to the church and the church already has 5 pianos, but doesn't want to hurt this long standing church person's feelings or the family, the piano is received and a tax receipt issued. BUT the church doesn't really need another piano. I saw this happen many times.

Is this good stewardship?

I don't know what this is about? Much ado about nothing?

A suggested donation is just that: a suggestion! People give as much as they can; some more, others less, and some nothing at all. Everyone gives according to their ability, and recieves according to their need: the ancient social principle that has been the hallmark of Christian communities since the days of Jesus.

This principle is even stronger in our aboriginal spiritual culture. Perhaps we could learn from them?

All My Relations,

Arminius

Yes; a neutral, qualified third party must do an appraisal.

Perhaps not...cms

Getting old pianos is actually an issue for churches.  Piano's take a fair bit of maintenance in order to be playable and that costs.

At our church we have our pianos that we use and say no to others.  There are schools, music groups .... that may take them or they can be sold.  The Church needs to be clear on what items are usable and tactfully decline the others.

A toonie may be more reasonable; however, some things cost more than $2.  I am lucky to break even on a toonie lunch if it has meat in it, or fruit.  Quality chili and sides are not a $2 meal.

We also do potluck.  Not everyone likes potluck. 

I think the important theing to decide in these issues:  what is the purpose?

Is it fundraising?  Then the target would be to make as much money as possible.

Is it fellowship and community building?  Then the target would be to include everyone and not lose money (hopefully some people would donate more than their share to cover those unable to donate).

Is it outreach or educational?  Then some loss to be taken out of  the Outreach or the Christian Development fund would be acceptable.

Is it a combination of two or more purposes?   Then probably hope to break even with a little profit.

I'm not saying that there can't be followship at events when the purpose is strictly fundraising.  There can be a lot of laughter in the kitchen while pealing potatoes or washing dishes.  People meeting to make crafts for a bazaar may find friendship and fellowship as well as an outlet for their creative abilities.  Guests coming to a dinner or bazaar may find friendship - they may even discover that your church is a nice place to be. 

But financially, I think that you have to focus on the purpose.  And when an after church social luncheon becomes a fundraiser people may feel exploited or left out. 

You are right, seeler, and that is a key fact.  Always be clear up front what the purpose of a social event is - fundraiser, social, or outreach.  And then price accordingly.

And if it is a fundraiser dinner, it seems reasonable to me that it be priced at roughly what it would cost to go to a restaurant.  Most churches under charge.

I think maybe some problems arise when churches announce 'something' (an after church lunch for example) without being open about the circumstances.  It needs to be clear before people get in line that this 'something' is definitely a fundraising event (for Sue's mission trip maybe) or this 'something' is a congregational event that all are welcome at.  Those who wish to donate towards the food costs will see a basket by the door.

No-one should ever be taken by surprise by an expense that they don't have funds to cover.  Sometimes this is something as surprising and simple as - 'sorry kids, we can't eat here after all because I don't have any cash with me this morning'. This happened to me once and I was too uncomfortable to ask for a loan from someone else.  If it happened to me I'm sure it has happened to others.

At our church we run a weekly video course. Currently we are doing "Christianity Explored." The evening starts with dinner, followed by a short Christian video and then we break into small groups for discussion.

The price of the dinner is $0. Zilch. Zero. Nada. Free.

Of course, we do encourage everyone to stay for the video and discussion, but some people have come only for the dinner.

I've also recently been participating in an "Alpha" course at a nearby Christian Reformed Church. They charge the same thing for dinner as we do.

Jubilee, someone is paying for the dinner..even if it is from committee funds.

If so, I wonder if the tax implications...of getting dinner for free....where is cjms?

ie..someone probably donated that money as part of their offerings on ? sunday? morning...and got a tax receipt.

maybe it is the same as church school curriculum..but i wonder.

right..but.....aaah, it drives me crazy...I will not derail this thread.

***Serena enters in mist of light***  You have my blessing to derail this thread.   

***Serena leaves once again in a blaze of glory***

I was taken by surprise with being invited to stay for lunch with my foster kids.  There was a sandwhich board sign outside the Church that said "free soup and sandwich" and it was advertised in the paper as such.  I had no money with me at all and the kids were already dished up.  (they did not see the sign I guess and were ahead of me)

You know, I am experienced with folks who are always crying foul.

They are the ones who are complaining they are always in the kitchen....though they are the ones who go there first, supervising because no one can do it as well as them, and....then tell everyone later how much work they had to do .

Sometimes they are the ones who complain about how we aren't welcoming, after they just finished yelling at the folks who got out the wrong coffee maker (how dare them), when they (the visitors) were helping throw a shower.

Sometimes they are the ones who share how much a lunch costs and is too much money as they wear their new clothes for the season...or tell us about their night out at the bar.

You know, if someone is always crying foul, eventually people ignore them..and that isnt' good either.

I have decided I no longer work towards the lowest common denominator.  I will do my best, I will put out a lunch and try to learn to do it better...but I won't bow down to those who bitch no matter how much we try.....coz I have found that traditionally there are some folks who periodically will go through periods when nothing you do is right.

Pinga

Right up there with the ones who complain about ALWAYS being in the kitchen, and not being able to turn out that third turkey dinner (that would have been for the community) becuase they are so tired.  But, thanks but no thanks, the kitchen is under control, thank you very much, and we don't need your help.  Grumble, grumble.

We are very human, aren't we.  The fact we are in church doesn't change our basic nature.

One free ticket for a Fair Trade Coffee and a biky (really free)

IT

Russ

It is amazing to me that people will pay 10 bucks each for a brunch in a restaurant but complain about a silver collection( optional) for something at the church.Churches are suppose to do it for free.

crazyheart

10 bucks?  I believe $10 will get you breakfast at Denny's.

Don't you see, the food was provided by God, a boatload of fish.  And it was prepared by a happy bunch with nothing else to do (communion, outreach, posters, web, Sunday School) out of an infinite church budget (decreasing numbers, worsening economy, increased costs).

No, it SHOULD be free, darn it, so shape up

IT

Russ

PS - Another free coffee and a biky for you as well.

We do a Shrove Tuesday pancake supper the money raised goes to our foster child in Uganda. We have an unmanned jar at the front with a recommened cost and it is just that recommended not policed there are times when I have not had any money and I still sat down and ate. The important part is the fellowship not the cost. It seems that no matter how many people eat we still get almost the exact amount of money that we need for our Foster Child. God is good huh.

God is good musicsooths, I agree - when we have faith sometimes we get just what we need ... quite amazing  

We had a dinner today for a study group...

Our minister started it with chicken broth & some rice.  Others threw in items as they arrived, and then it simmered away.

Some brought bread.

The miracle of stone soup occurred..and we had a delicious meal. 

No money was exchanged...all were welcome.

*** (now, we are still learning how to cover the cost of books etc....one way is to have x books for the library to be reused, and those who want to buy there own do so...that way everyone has manuals as well.  we're learning how to be inclusive still )

When our study groups pick a boook we always buy one for the library or someone donates one.  Costs of books is an issue and sometimes members share books.  The problem usually arises that you need the book every week, so they also look for cheap costs which is often ordering them through Chapters rather than the UCC book store.

Lastpointe, helpful to hear others buy books for the library.  I really think that is what we need to do to make things more inclusive.

re: buying, i do my best to always purchase from UCC book store, either at Five Oaks (GrandRiver Spiritual & Educational Resources / avel) or through the one at Presbytery / Conference).   I just feel it is so important to support these groups which strive to have a variety, even those others wouldn't consider carrying.