Which God of the Bible?  The character changes as the story is told

Yes! Wouldn't that indicate the evolution of God? Rather than the evolvement of our understanding?

Just an off-hand thought...

 

Looks to me like an evolution of thought on the part of the many authors of the biblical texts.

Hi Happy Genius:

 

Man's next evolutionary step is to take an active part in his evolution. I other words, we humans will become become self-evolving: we'll evolve into self-evolvers.

 

If the ultimate creator created man in ITs image, and if the universe is indeed self- creative, then we finally are becoming as self-creative as the universe (God) which created us in ITs image and as an inseparable part of ITself.

 

I think co-evolution is the buzzword of the future. We, in co-creation with each other and God, will co-creatively evolve our future.

 

This "God," of course, is not the God of the imagination of the prophets of two- or three-thousand years ago but of today: The self-creative totality of being, in a state of synthesis. 

 

 

God doesn't really change of course, it's  only our perspective that changes.

God-the-character changes.  Hence, the "God of the Bible" changes, since the Bible is the context in which the changes occur.  Whether a real god is changing or not is beside the point.

Hi Neo and Azdgari:

 

If God is the self-creative totality of being, then God changes all the time while remaining eternally unchanging: the self-creative totality of being: constantly changing spirit/energy as a singularity in a state of synthesis.

 

The singularity quantified, chaotified, diversified, unquefied and eventually humanified ITself while remaining a singularity in a state of synthesis. Every one of us humans is now a unique edition of the singularity, experiencing IT uniquely, and IT experiences ITself uniquely in and through every one of us—while being the same eternally unchanging singularity of self-creative energy/spirit, of which we are an inseparable part.

 

The paradox of diametric opposites being opposed and separated while also being united and the same is THE cosmic paradox. Actually, it is a Triple Paradox, also know as the Holy Trinity: every/any pair of diametric opposites, united and separated by the transcendental or creative power of CHOICE.

 

In science, the Triple Paradox is known as the "Principle of Complementarity," although science has not yet officially acknowledged the transcendental power of the cosmos as the creative power behind it.

 

Shakespeare, one of the greatest prophets and poets of all times, named the Triple Paradox "single nature's double name."

 

Property was thus appalled,

That the self was not the same:

Single nature's double name

Neither one nor two was called.

 

Reason, in itself confounded,

Saw division grow together;

To themselves yet either/neither,

Simple were so well compounded

That it cried: how true a twain

Seemeth this concordant one!

Love hath reason, reason none

If what parts can so remain.

 

-From THE PHOENIX AND THE TURTLE by William Shakespeare

So often I chuckle that ordinary people do not pay attention to what Arm states openly: "God is sum total!" Love and thinking in one complete fluid body ... the alternate sole to the mortal form (hommoe; in Greek).

 

How can one put two diametrically opposing powers in one thing? Look at the mind of man containing love and thought in one sculling (scholarly) place in time. No wonder Jules Vern called ID a time machine ... just Piscine through! Then man is often unbalanced either in thinking, or living by their love alone (crazy according to the bible) bi polar imbalance? Could we get it all together ... gathered like ... hanging in space! That's High man ... like Socrates in a sheltered place ... plate eau Nick mate? Sa Quies in the tree .. devil of a hamadryad ... shadow in old languages ... that one should begin to understand as the WORD is God but some people don't see it as it goes around in immortal change ... thy's Torah  ... Egoes on not noticed by many but a few that would like to know God ... the whole word. Impossible dream? There must be another dimension for the boar'd intellectual state ... such a heaven would be a hellova state for those that didn't wish to know ... pure satyr of the sol'!

 

Does not Jaw'n say that the word is god, god is the word of everything?

 

Well if you were eliminated as pure myth ... how would you behave towards mankind? Like a dog maw chained to the threshold (Daegon) ... either dieing, or ready to nipon your weals/heals? That's Dan eh!

 

Just let it slide as something you didn't wish to probe into ... des ole thing of Mon; dark swelling basis of ignorance ... look around for the evidence folks ... we don't have a clue!

 

Corpus delecti, or habeas corpus ... something to be consumed from an inside Joker ... de worm ova dem hynd end ... just Light Mica Angellico

There is a portion of the scientific community who say that human evolution is over. Essentially, the argument is that the purpose of evolution is to help creatures adapt to a point at which they are, for lack of a better word, at the top of their environment. Thus, sharks and alligators haven't evolved for eons, because they have no reason to evolve. They aren't necessarily as good as they can possibly be, but they're as good as they need to be. Some argue that humans have reached that level. We have no natural predators; we largely dominate (for better or worse) our environment. Thus, evolution stops, because there's really very little for us to adapt to.

 

Consider the book "Future Evolution" by Peter Ward. I read it a few years ago, but what I remember (also from a couple of articles I've read that others have written) is that he argues that natural evolution is at a dead end in humans - the only changes that will come to humans now are human-induced changes (ie, deliberate genetic engineering, etc.) At the very least, if human evolution (changes independent of human engineering) continue, it will be because of changes made by humans - ie, some "natural" changes might occur because of "engineered" changes.

 

As to the "God of the Bible" I agree with others who have suggested that the "God of the Bible" doesn't exist. The God who exists is the God whom the biblical authors struggled with and tried (within the limits of human understanding and imagination) to describe - sometimes a fierce warrior (when we fight a war we believe that God is always on our side), sometimes a judgmental figure (those who rail against their contemporary society always assume God agrees with them) and sometimes a father (or parent) figure (those who need comfort always run to someone they think will protect and care for them.) God is more than we can imagine, although we can understand something of God and how God might act from the observations and reflections of others and from what we see around us. The existence of the universe suggests to me a God who creates; the precision of the created universe suggests to me a God who cares; the existence of a God who cares makes plausible to me the concept of incarnation (ie, Jesus as God Incarnate -  a God who would want to directly experience that which he has created.) Incarnation demonstrates divine love for the creation (from a God who chooses to experience the existence of that which he has created.) 

There are rational and irrational numbers ... "i" seams to fold in on itself with bias. Have you seem the brilliant cover of Brian Greens book on the Elegant Universe ... wonderful display of Calib Yau space on the cover ... luped, or lupin space ... al bent according to delight ... coming from the dark formless void ... makin something out've nothing ... in par's. A musing God's or bedevilin them?

 

"Meis UN what did you see out there?" Question of a blind beginning ... terred space ... not all A'B'D thing ... some still connected ... a remnant ... incarnation ... Mere' Gold? Flowering toxic imagination; depends on how ID 's used ... that's dunne in Piscine .... old Eire of Celtic sea goan sorts ... from Lap Land? Giggles Smoer ...

Hi Arminius-- I hope life finds you well. I cannot believe how close you get to what I believe. I do not think death is the end , I believe it is the beginning. I think the prophets believe they would be working with God.As Jesus said I would have you be one with God  as I am one. And I do nothing unless God tells me. I hope some day that we all can be of one mind. To God Be The Glory airclean33 

 The "God of the Bible" is the divine as experienced by members of a changing culture over thousands of years: so God starts out as a genocidal. raging little tribe-minder and blossoms into something closer to the protective "mother hen" Jesus spoke of wanting to be like... God, now, is coming to be seen more like the totality Arminius refers to. That may take some time to be fully realised in a lot of people's minds and hearts -- and I suspect our experiences of god have some distance to travel yet. It's an unfolding thing that relates to our capacities and openness to experiences of god... God is Mystery to us. To say more is to go backwards... in the direction of the petty tribal hardman.

Hi Happy Genius,

 

 

Why, in your opinion, does that indicate that it is God that is involving rather than it being human understanding which evolves?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

I believe in Jehovah, Yahweh, God Creator/Sustainer/Destroyer, the Father of Jesus, Mother Earth of the Native Peoples as part of all Creation, Universal Mind, Allah, God with both a specific Consciousness, and with a non-specific one.  I have experienced all of these aspects of God. 

 

We like to think we've evolved from our perception of a 'genocidal' God of the OT.  We reject it like we cannot let God be 'in' the Holocaust.  It is a modern anathema. 

 

But God is All.  I've been through the painful process of understanding the anathema, both Jehovah and God 'in' the Holocaust, a taboo, not the way we brush it off, but convicting God, like a doctor, who has the power to heal, but walks by a wounded person.

 

I don't split it all up, but take it whole.  Then I don't get the God I want, I get the God that Is.  Then I have to deal with a greater God that almost everyone rejects.  God is the third biggest taboo in civilization.  We rely on religion to keep Him under control.

 

MIke does a nice job to show how we picture God, create models.   Now a good model ( in science) is open enough to let new information slide in and change the model.

So from one perspective the question is what is consitent in the evolving models.  Is the lure of God toward novel experience and when that is responded to then a new novel idea flows in.   So it is not so much that God evolves but our models do.  That is not to say God is static but the character of God is dynamic.  In one sense the Mystery can be defined by negative theology, what God is not.  This helps create models that are a better reflection of the mystery.  So if God is love, that means God is adaptive to new contexts.  If the evolution of culture is to move from tribal images to cosmic images one could posit this is partly due to the aim of God desiring more intensity and contrasts. 

 

To say our models of God are our constructions is not to limit the efficacious nature of God but to see how the model fits with an idea of mystery in the universe that seeks to be known.  Thus the claim is God is inter active, and there is a consistency to that action and that is love or a desire toward more beauty, intensity, harmony, compassion and justice.   God is no longer tribal but that was one stage in the evolution of understanding.  God was never tribal in essence.  This is the outcome of negative theology.

 Rev. Steven Davis, interesting take on the topic.  I don't think evolution ever really stops.  There is a misconception that it behaves like a ladder, straight, linear and upwards.

 

 However, author Stephen Jay Gould in his many books ("Full House" is brilliant), shows that evolution behaves much more like a bush, branching off in many directions.

 

Changes in any given species are primarily the result of environmental changes, which force the species to adapt to new conditions.  

 

Our modern human environment has changed considerably, in less than 100 years.  Our air is dirtier, our food is becoming more and more processed, our physical activity has declined, people with genetic defects can survive to reproduce now, and much more.  I think these are all significant factors.

 

No one knows how or where evolution will lead us thru all this change, because much of it is recent and its effects will not appear possibly for generations later.

Strangely similer to Kurtsweilt's  history of technology...(With charts and graphs):

at the rate we are going (faster) computers will reach a point when they wioll equal human consciousness...and soon after wil; charge ahead...

Kurzweil's "Law of Accelerating Returns". Kurzweil projects that between now and 2050 medical advances will allow people to radically extend their lifespans while preserving and even improving quality of life as they age. The aging process could at first be slowed, then halted, and then reversed as newer and better medical technologies became available. Kurzweil argues that much of this will be due to advances in medical nanotechnology, which will allow microscopic machines to travel through one's body and repair all types of damage at the cellular level. Equally consequential developments will occur within the realm of computers as they become increasingly powerful, numerous and cheap between now and 2050. Kurzweil predicts that a computer will pass the Turing test by 2029, by demonstrating to have a mind indistinguishable from a human's in terms of knowledge, emotion and self-awareness. He predicts that the first AI will be a computer simulation of a human brain which will be created thanks to hyperaccurate brainscanning done by advanced medical nanomachines inserted into a real human brain...

However it goes...the future is going to be interesting....as are your posts...

 

Rev. Steven Davis:

This IS a wonder cafe -- your post contains much - causing no reply from me but a lot of interesting pondering...for whiich I (among the others) appreciate greatly.

 

It wasn't really an opinion, more of an off-hand conjecture...I thought that BOTH are evolving...is a interesting idea...for those trained in Theology, I feel like saying " Move on, people, nuthin' here to see...".

 

 

Gray Owl : quote

 

"I believe in Jehovah, Yahweh, God Creator/Sustainer/Destroyer, the Father of Jesus, Mother Earth of the Native Peoples as part of all Creation, Universal Mind, Allah, God with both a specific Consciousness, and with a non-specific one.  I have experienced all of these aspects  of God.

 I don't split it all up, but take it whole.  Then I don't get the God I want, I get the God that Is.  Then I have to deal with a greater God that almost everyone rejects". end of quote

 

 

YES......well said!  I agree!

 

Hi Happy Genius:

 

I think that, from here on, the human psyche cannot evolve any further without its own conscious co-operation. The future evolutionary direction for humankind is a focused evolution of the human psyche by the human psyche.

 

This co-evolutionary future I foresee is a psycho-spiritual self-evolution: the human psyche will, consciously and intentionally, evolve itself toward ever higher stages of consciousness. Nonduality or universal oneness will no longer be an abstract idea or a personal revelation but will become a shared experience common to all humans. Thus, we will evolve not only the individual human psyche but the collective psyche of our species and create an enlightened human culture.

 

Then we are no longer the separate ego individuals that we once thought we were but will experience ourselves as the whole cosmos and will be living for the whole cosmos. From this expanded cosmic consciousness we will be taken up by the creative intelligence of the cosmos into states and stages yet unimaginable.

 

Then we will care passionately about the creative process and become genuine images of the creative cosmic intelligence and act on ITs behalf. Then we will realize that we are here to creatively self-develop so that ever higher stages of conciousness may emerge in the humans of the future.

 

Just some of my day and night dreams.

 

(Last night I dreamt of an important global conference in which the delegates were, like the UN, sitting in a circle. I was one of the functionaries or ushers and showed Oprah Winfrey and her husband—a middle-aged, tall, and reddish-blond Caucasian—to their seats. Unfortunately, I don't remember what the conference was about :-)

Arminius: quote:

 

Thus, we will evolve not only the individual human psyche but the collective psyche of our species and create an enlightened human culture.

 

Beautiful ideal certainly but the problem is that you've never come up with a date as to when this vision will be realized on earth. Can you give me some imaginary time frame?  Are we talking like 1000 years time or less  ?

Well, stardust, like all prophecies, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It all depends on whether or not and how quickly we fulfil this prophecy.

 

It is also possible that we self-destroy before we get there.

 

The CHOICE is ours.

Just a passing almost-thought: Maybe Heaven and Hell are in synthsis which is Earth and Beings of Possibility.

Not great theology, might make a short sci fi story...probably IS one

Do you believe you have experienced all aspects of God?

Perhaps to keep IT in view. To a few. Many called, few chosen?

 

 

I don't believe anyone can experience all aspects of God.  But with each aspect that challenges your notion of what He is or isn't, your cosmology grows.  Religion is deep and wonderful, and you can spend your whole life in just one and discover amazing things.  But each has their limitations, and God created all kinds of religions and other different spiritualities.  Why go on a diet when you are at the banquet table?  Fill yourself up on God, and know thyself.

 Arminius: the evidence is that humans ARE evolving now... more rapidly even than in the past. Survival pressures are fairly intense on two thirds of the world's population and it could very easily become general. That provides the selective force. (As far as I can discover, the reason(s) why genetic diversification seems to be picking up is not known.)

 

But genetic differentiation IS happening now in the human species and selective forces are out there because, for a lot of people, survival is fraught.

Arminius quote:

"Well, stardust, like all prophecies, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It all depends on whether or not and how quickly we fulfil this prophecy."

 

Yes I know what you are saying. You have your roots in Christianity and you know  the world religions and now your crowning glory Zen, and your vision. Its no problem for you or a lot of people who are spiritual to evolve the way you speak about.

 

My line of thought, query or question is about the millions of people who have no particular spiritual interest or spiritual base. I'm speaking about the average joe who works, comes home, has a beer, watches TV, pursues the pleasure principle on the weekends. Or the average working mom  busy with the kids or the average single person working  on a career and partying. You follow me...lol. 

 

There are many many people ( I meet them always) who are nice meaning the norm, but they could care less  about God as a reality  and sure wouldn't care much about joining the WC or even reading here. I guess they'd say they don't have the time to think about it and they aren't interested.

 

So...how are these people going to  somehow magically evolve (without an inkling or  any spiritual knowledge)  to build and bring about this idealistic world you speak about?

 

  As an example and something I didn't realize is that a whole lot of Canadians and Americans watch  TV at nights after work for x number of hours. They know all the TV programs and lots of people have seen all the latest movies etc. This they know.......but the other?  I don't talk spirituality to people in general  so its true  I'm not privy to their spiritual beliefs. Perhaps I shouldn't be talking or thinking like this and I shouldn't stereotype. But....I've always been outgoing and I'm not meeting these spiritual people who are out there  and that you're telling me about.......? ? I know...I know....you would say like attracts like or we see others  according to what is inside ourselves spititually. As a man thinks or sees...so he is. I like people. I'm a friendly puppy dog type. I don't choose to talk religion or politics very much in the real world. I don't want people to have to cross the road when they see me coming  .

 

Sorry if I sound negative. I think I'm being realistic speaking for only myself of course. An atomic bomb exploding  or some giant catastrophe happening in the future could bring about the change you believe in and seek.

 

I do agree that people's consciousness regarding  the earth and reverence for all of life   has been raised over the past years and continues along that path. Its a slow walk 'tho. 

 

What say you? You're not seeing what I'm seeing? Can you be a Jesus of Nazareth in your little village of Lumby church  and raise the consciousness of the whole world?  Gosh...I hope so.....I'll say I knew him when .........you are doing wonderful....congrats!

Mike:

quote  "The evidence is that humans ARE evolving now... more rapidly even than in the past."

 

Yes, I agree with what you are writing and also what others are saying about it altho' I do  seem to contradict myself or its a paradox of sorts. 

 

I assume you folks mean people are being forced to more or less evolve and spirituality will come with it......or is hidden within it ....as in God is in the world and we are in God....something like that?

Hi stardust:

 

I can't raise the consciousness of the world. But if humankind does not collectively raise its consciousness, then humanity is doomed.

 

Egocentricity, ethnocentricity, and anthropocentricity are doing us in. If we don't evolve gaiacentricity or cosmocentricity—and soon—then we are doomed as a species.

 

The universe has evolved us as far as it could, into a self-creative species. Any further evolution will be an evolution of consciousness, which can't happen without the active participation of the individual psyche and and the collective human psyche. As I said, it is a matter of life and death for our species. If we remain stuck in egoconsciousness and don't evolve toward higher consciousness, then we are doomed.

 

To speak in Christian terms, what God wants us to do is to take any further evolution of our species into our own hands and minds: to actively evolve our psyche toward higher forms of consciousness, in cooperation and co-creation with each other, and God.

Well put, Armenius.

 

This is the first time in history that global humanity is in the same boat.  It is also a time of great fluctuation politically and economically, like it was for Europe before the first and second world wars.   At the same time, the Earth is about to cleanse itself.

 

Who and how we handle this double crisis will speak the heart of each individual.

Gray Owl: quote

 

" At the same time, the Earth is about to cleanse itself."

 

Are you speaking about gaia and  the earth's karma here?  People have posted on forums that the tsunsia - sp - (earthquakes and such)  represent the earth cleansing itself  meaning that the people's karma or lives have been absorbed by the earth or became part of it. 

 

Gaia is spitting out the rot.....but OMG  this is way too much for me and quite out of line. I find this theory quite horrifying. Its along the lines of Pat Robertson who said that the Haiti earthquake was God's way of punishing the people.

 

Or...do you mean the earth will cleanse itself  in the future through the participation of the people?

Arminius

I gotcha......agreed ....!

Gray Owl - see my post above, same quote. I haven't researched the people's karma yet in relation to gaia. I remember it from forums.

 

This is probably what you mean?

 

Quote:

 

Unbeknownst to most all of us, the earth (Gaia), in its own way, is a sentient being. Many cultures understand this, but few in ours do. This Being has allowed its use by mankind so that its inhabitants could maximize the accelerated experience available on the physical plane. This was not victimization, but an agreement at the highest level. We feel that we have wronged this planet, and on the surface we have, but we all chose our own experiences for maximum growth, and Gaia's choice is no different.

 

The earth is no different than our bodies. Through life experience, we absorb the energies around us. Because of human activity (generally quite coarse), the earth has absorbed this energy, and continues to do so at an increasing rate. This energy builds up in its aura just as our experiences build up in ours, and from the chakra articles, we know blocks and disease can occur from this. The agreement between the two (Gaia and Mankind) is that earth itself is entitled to its own ascension and cleansing process, regardless if we are ready or not as a race.

 

Because earth cleansings are caused by a build-up of negative energy, they can be triggered by a crescendo of events, such as a war. From what I saw, this cleansing follows a large war, possible WWIII.

 

Earth cleansings are a major event. Faults buckles, which triggers both tidal waves and volcanic eruptions along the Ring of Fire. The vibrations during this process in the subtle plane are horrendous. And while the destruction in earth's past was smaller and more localized due to population, this time, it is global. Previous localized destruction was caused by tens of thousands of humans, whereas billions will cause this global destruction. History is speckled with cleansing stories such as Atlantis, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the story of Noah's Ark.

 

 

 

Despite religious dogma, this is not punishment but Universal Law (or if you were a Christian, you would say, "God's law.") Ịf we were meant to perish or ascend for all eternity during each cleansing, then all souls would already exist in "heaven or hell" from past cleansings, but the fact is, the cycle goes onward still. An example of this would be the cleansing that is rumored to have happened with Noah. "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.... ~Genesis 6:13-14." This is a prime example of a negative build up of energies resulting in an earth cleansing.

 

 

http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/articles-spirituality/ascension-earth-cleansing.php

 

Stardust, you find the most interesting stuff

I think attaching "sentience" to a planet is as much of a superstitious mistake as making Theos into Zeus-god. I do, however, think that there's ample evidence to demonstrate that the planet is one interconnected ecosystem.

or quite possibly of not only human activities,  but also because the whole place swings around a moderate star, has ground tha floats on liquid rock, a constant and changing pull from the moon, and a variety of benign and not so benign radiations and other stuff whacking it over the head from space.

All those factors build tensions in the planet.

not so much "Atlas Shrugged" though, as "the spring snapped". Like the San Andreas Fault. Darn thing hasn't moved in a really major way in a long time. If the tension all lets go at once, it'll make a heck of a noise. I doubt that it's Arnie whose holding it in check at the moment.

Which brings your source back around to some sort of predestination, or design or "cosmic will".

 

I'd suggest something somewhat more mundane. If we're advanced enough, and smart enough, when the next major upheaval occurs, we will be able to maintain enough of our technological civilization that we won' have to start all over again.

 

At the moment, that doesn't seem very likely. while we could fairly readily survive a loss of air travel, major disruptions of transportation, and even setbacks in communications, one of the most vulnerable elements is also the most vital - electricity. All industry and public services depend on it. So loss of electricity means loss of pharmaceuticals, for example, as well as loss of advanced medical tools like CT. It also means loss of access to the knowledge, stored largely electronically, that makes technology possible.

 

Avoiding this doesn't require that we stop building up "negative energy". It does require that demonstrate some forethought as a species.

Not seeing it so far.

Happy Genius,

 

Increasing complexity + humanity's incessant curiosity = a bright present.

 

Humanity's collective memory is becoming longer.  It is a human trait that we build upon what came before.

 

In the total of human experience, the parts that are labelled 'G_d' seem to be getting smaller and the parts that can actually be used to say meaningful things are getting bigger.

 

I see our ability to abrogate responsibility to something external to ourselves to get smaller and smaller as time goes on...so less 'G_d' and more meaningful statements and investigations into our collective experiences.

 

And there are those who will and are resisting and who cause troubles for the rest of us.  We who are embracing this wonderful world where we all consciouslly experience as Arthur Stanley Eddington did:

 

"We have found a strange footprint on the shores of the unknown. We have devised profound theories, one after another, to account for its origins. At last, we have succeeded in reconstructing the creature that made the footprint. And lo! It is our own."

 

The tribalisms that Religion encourage that are just so caustic and anti-human, gradually falling by the wayside.

 

If you go out, late at night, and listen...you can hear the Eureka moments that are happening all over the world.  Bit by bit.

When it comes to evolution of God and humanity, I believe the next step will happen when it is determined if we can survive as a species our own technology.  

 

We will either eliminate ourselves completely from existence and God will continue to change. Or we will eliminate most people , but those who share certain characteristics that will enable them to survive, and God will  continue to change.

 

Yup, as usual with you, Stardust... :-)

 

But we have to speak about it in a modern vernacular, because most people don't understand.  There is no supporting experience to challenge the status quo.  Fair enough.  The choice is Given.

 

And the scientific explanation is just as descriptive.  We live in a life-supporting, interdependent system of molecules and energy.  We have disrupted it to such a profound level, that the entire life support system will react in a macro way.  To maintain hope, we are confident that we can control this planetary correction and continue with our lifestyle.  Same difference, just modern secular vernacular.

 

Well, almost.  The Ring of Fire, etc., is best kept below the radar until people aclimatize themselves beyond the conventional.

 

To accept what you quoted goes very deeply into our cosmology, something few have the time or inclination to delve into.  Things are working fine just as they are.  Most don't see the need for much more. 

 

As a side note, I find it funny that almost every spirituality I run into acknowledges Jesus in some huge, big way.  But Christianity can't really expand beyond its own spiritual cosmology.  It's one of the Church's Achilles Heels.

 

And just for you, Stardust, your quote is right:  "For Mother Earth loved Father so much, She agreed to sacrifice Her Creation so that the souls could grow."

 

Sound familiar?  Jesus ain't standing in Darkness.  We just refuse to turn on the light.

 

 

 

Yes, if you compare how the traditional Natives live with the Earth, versus the treatment we meat out, you see how the Natives live with the Earth in a positive way, so the negative energies are not compounded like modern business-science culture is doing globally.

 

Humans can help the Earth spiritually cleanse the negative energies, but it has to be done in the right way.  Unfortunately, it goes against such a deep core of the entire structure of our lives, most can't accept it. 

 

Spirituality is supposed to be happy! happy! happy!  So the ugly clean-up work spiritually is left to those who are a little more realistic about the job at hand.  Sobering.

 

 

Golden nicely said about sentience - yes the universe is relational reality and ecosystem. Where sentience is found is in actual entities - animals, humans, cells ( but not rocks)  The earth is a society of sentient reality.  To make the earth or the universe into sentience is misplaced concreteness and it gets us to all sorts of problems intellectually.  It is bad metaphysics and bad science.

Mike:

Dead spot on! (As usual)

GR, Gray Owl, and Pan

 

Thanks for your responses. I'm reading along trying to process them. I'm no whiz kid. I like to read.

 

Great words, Inanna—welcome back!

Gray Owl : quote

"For Mother Earth loved Father so much, She agreed to sacrifice Her Creation so that the souls could grow."

 

AW.....this is so beautiful....I stand in awe.......

 

Here is Jesus speaking in the writings of the Essenes:

 

The Gospel of Peace

 

"The blood which runs in us is born of the blood of our Earthly Mother. Her blood falls from the clouds; leaps from the womb of the earth; babbles in the brooks of the mountains; flows wide in the rivers of the plains; sleeps in the lakes; rages mightily in tempestuous seas.

 

"The air which we breathe is born of the breath of our Earthly Mother. Her breath is azure in the heights of t heavens; soughs in the tops of the mountains; whispers the leaves of the forest; billows over the cornfields; slumbers in the deep valleys, burns hot in the desert.

 

"The hardness of our bones is born of the bones of our Earthly Mother, of the rocks and of the stones. They stand naked to the heavens on the tops of mountains; are as giants that lie sleeping on the sides of the mountains, as idols set in the desert, and are hidden in the deepness of the earth.

 

"The tenderness of our flesh is born of the flesh of our Earthly Mother; whose flesh waxes yellow and red in the fruits of the trees, and nurtures us in the furrows of the fields.

 

"Our bowels are born of the bowels of our Earthly Mother, and are hid from our eyes, like the invisible depths of the earth.

 

"The light of our eyes, the hearing of our ears, both are born of the colors and the sounds of our Earthly Mother; which enclose us about, as the waves of the sea a fish, as the eddying air a bird.

 

"I tell you in very truth, Man is the Son of the Earthly Mother, and from her did the Son of Man receive his whole body, even as the body of the newborn babe is born of the womb of his mother. I tell you truly, you are one with the Earthly Mother; she is in you, and you in her. Of her were you born, in her do you live, and to her shall you return again. Keep, therefore, her laws, for none can live long, neither be happy, but he who honors his Earthly Mother and does her laws. For your breath is her breath; your blood her blood; your bone her bone; your flesh her flesh; your bowels her bowels; your eyes and your ears are her eyes and her ears.

 

"I tell you truly, should you fail to keep but one only of all these laws, should you harm but one only of all your body's members, you shall be utterly lost in your grievous sickness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I tell you, unless you follow the laws of your Mother, you can in no wise escape death. And he who clings to the laws of his Mother, to him shall his Mother cling also. She shall heal all his plagues, and he shall never become sick. She gives him long life, and protects him from all afflictions; from fire, from water, from the bite of venomous serpents. For your Mother bore you, keeps life within you. She has given you her body, and none but she heals you. Happy is he who loves his Mother and lies quietly in her bosom. For your Mother loves you, even when you turn away from her. And how much more shall she love you, if you turn to her again? I tell you truly, very great is her love, greater than the greatest of mountains, deeper than the deepest seas. And those who love their Mother, she never deserts them. As the hen protects her chickens, as the lioness her cubs, as the mother her newborn babe, so does the Earthly Mother protect the Son of Man from all danger and from all evils.

 

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html

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http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/

 

I respect that line of reasoning.

 

 Humans are molecules and energy arranged to create sentience.  I'm not sure what the definition of God is in all of this logic however. 

 

The chasm I find in the reasoning is that sentience is centered in the brain, cells, etc., something that humans can relate to on their terms.  But humans are complex organisms.  So is the Earth, much more complex than humans.  Christians believe that there is a spiritual element to humans, a spiritual element attached to the organism but not dependent upon its arrangement of molecules and energy for its own consciousness.  Our ability to perceive consciousness in such a limited arrangement of molecules and energy, humans and animals doesn't seem to take its own logic far enough.

 

 It comes down to shared experience.  Academics have a shared intellectual perception, the Church its own, shamans their own, etc.  Without shared experience within community, perceptual barriers exist in communication.

Inanna the Whimsical One!

 

Here you are ...!  I was thinking about you yesterday . I saw you rising up from the mist so I called out to you . You were so ethereal I wasn't sure you had heard me.

We missed you .

Gray Owl

 

Stones can talk .....yes? Its a matter of listening.......

 

http://www.dharma-talks.com/talking_stones.htm

 

Quote:

I was also taught several ways to talk with the "rocks". Some rocks have ears, some have mouths, some you can put to your ear and hear a buzzing sound. Sometimes it takes years to learn how to work with a particular stone. Stones have a very different sense of time. Consider that they are the first living beings on the planet. Each one is eons old. Some of you may know the Lakota word "Tunkasila", which is generally translated as "grandfather", but the original word means "very ancient rock". It was an analogy for the Creator, Ancient Mystery, God, etc. There's a lot of wisdom and power in that.

 

http://www.thetalkingstones.com/id7.html

Yes.  Christianity does not retain that ancient ability to comprehend, working on their own logic and cosmology.  And science is the extension of the Judeo-Greco-Roman-Christian tragetory of logic, relating to reality in its unique way.

 

 

The link I'm posting here isn't answering the question in the OP. Nevertheless the OP is about the God of the Bible and this article is rather interesting. I put it on its own  thread but  it may disappear before anyone reads it.

 

It is about repairing the world...so yes....we may say  its about moving on up higher working together.

 

Does God suffer?

 

http://www.zimbio.com/The+Torah/articles/168/RABBI+ARTHUR+SEGAL+GOD+9+11+JEWISH+RENEWAL

 

Here is a problem - stones can speak is a great metaphor.  However to give them sentience is to make a category mistake and makes it hard to engage materialists.  They just see fuzy thinking.

 

Yes there is within the cell a sentience and sentience is within all living things.  However it is a matter of degree and sometimes the degree is so much it feels like kind.  And when we ignore this difference in complexity we give over to the materialists the idea of differenece in kind.  This is the dualistic outcome of rejecting the earth as a society of living realities and making it only materialistic and thus only instrumental - it does away with intrinsic worth that each sentient reality has.

Humans are the most complex organism in the seens of consciousness - a sense of self and a sense of other, and there is inter and intra subjectivity and a reflection on those relationships. 

 

Where does God come in?  God is an actual entity who is infinite not finite  - not an exception to the metaphysical rule of relationality and inter and intra subjectivity.  God can only influence by persusasion and has an agenda which is an aim toward novelty and intensity and harmony - peace beauty justice and compassion.

There is a difference  between energy and molecules - molecules are actual entities and thus have some level of sentience whereas energy is a process of becoming - in one sense not a thing but a proposition- it is the connecting process of related realities.   This does mean we need all forms of communication and insights to respond to the possiblity of Beauty offered by God... it is through propositions ( ideas) and experience we feel the aim of God ( note here God has an aim offered persuasively)

 

Yes the mind which is more than the brain organizes the sentience in the cells and is influenced by the sentience in the cells etc.  It is a both/and.