Double see edit

I've read that or a similar quote before. He didn't go to the Dalai Lama's birthday (or maybe he just didn't speak at it) when he was invited one year, I read. He's very Christian, but he's also liberal and unorthodox and non literal. Listen to his lyrics.

 

yes I love U2"s music 

A lot of it has Christian themes running through it but they're poetic, not preachy, and accessible to everyone. I had no idea, years ago. Been listening to U2 since I was about 14.

U2 was actually hailed by some as a "Christian band" early in their career (as I recall having been in my teens when they hit it big) though, like Mumford and Sons, they themselves have never really embraced that label. Certainly, as Kimmio says, there are a lot of spiritual and specifically Christian overtones in their writing which is one of the reasons I like them and why I think they have had more staying power than bands that have tended to stick to more traditional rock n'roll themes like love, losing love, and getting laid. Perhaps the most amazing thing about U2 is that they are still running with their original lineup after 35 years or so. Even the Stones, probably the longest continously operating rock band at this point, had lineup changes over the years.

 

Mendalla

 

I just listened not really realizing they were Christian overtones.

Have you checked these out. U2charist (eucharist with a U2 theme being done at churches all over) can't decide if I like it or it's a good publicity stunt.

And, since you can't discuss U2 without having a visit from Bono et al., here is the debut of their latest single from a few weeks ago. This was, IIRC, the first musical performance of Jimmy Kimmel's tenure on The Tonight Show.

 

 

Took me a while to warm up to this song, but I now quite like it.

 

Mendalla

 

Mendalla, I'm a bit slow on the uptake now and then. I don't know all my computer acronyms...what's IIRC?

Grace versus Karma?

 

Well, Karma is earned, whereas Grace, according to some traditions, is unearned.

 

I, however, don't think that Grace is unearned. Sure, one can't earn it by trying to curry favour with God, but I think Grace is no more and no less than becoming aware of what we ultimately and innately are.

 

Attaining this awareness, however, involves some effort and loss. We have to rid ourselves of egocentricity, together with all of its trappings, and of the illusion of separateness, and experience everything, including the creative power of the universe, as one unified and inseparable whole.

 

 

Speaking of Bono, did anyone read the story a few years ago about Bono hitch hiking in the rain in North Vancouver and being picked up by Edmonton Oilers' Gilbert Brulet (who was driving with his girlfriend and their dog)? Two of the most unlikely people. It was all over the news here, of course.

http://m.rollingstone.com/music/news/hockey-star-picks-up-hitchhiking-bo...

There is a "karmic" (is that a word?) element to the teachings of Jesus. "You reap what you sow," for example, or "whoever lives by the sword will die by the sword" are similar to the concept of karma. 

 

The difference would be that most eastern traditions see karma as extending beyond this life - so that, what you do in this life has an impact on your next life (in the sense of reincarnation.) Where the Christian concept of grace comes into play seems to me to be that grace puts an end to the cycle. Grace, while extended to us now, is also final forgiveness; an end to the cycle of "you reap what you sow."

I've thought about this. Buddhists see Nirvana as having reached or realized the end of that cycle- no more suffering. Could Christianity fit with Buddhist reincarnation? I think it's possible given that in this life that we know now, we don't know about any past lives. It doesn't mean their haven't been any or there won't be more, but for all intents and purposes, this is the one we have to work with and that's what know. Do my thoughts on this make sense? I'm not set on this belief, I've just wondered about it.

 

"If I Remember Correctly"

 

We should probably post an "online dictionary" as a sticky thread (meaning a thread that is always readily accessible from the top of a forum) on Wondercafe2 since we get a lot of folks who aren't otherwise active online.

 

Mendalla

 

Sticky thread like sticky notes stuck to the monitor? Lol! I think I got that one.

 

I dont think so, Jesus taught one life and then the judgement, also acording to Scripture Jesus lived , died, rose once, which is our destiny 

 

You'd need to stretch but it has been done.

 

I do think there is some common concern on a very broad level between the two traditions, in that both have a strong focus on dealing with human brokenness. Christianity talks about it in doctrines of Sin, salvation, and Grace while Buddhism deals with it through the four noble truths (Roughly: All life is suffering; suffering is caused by grasping; cessation of suffering comes through cessation of Grasping; cessation of grasping comes from following the Eightfold Path). The details and solutions tend to be rather different.

 

There is no "Original Sin" narrative in Buddhism, just the notion of how "sin" carries on from incarnation to incarnation, keeping us tied into this world of suffering until we break out of the cycle through following the eightfold path (leading to Nirvana, which is a state rather than a place). They also don't have this notion of salvation that can free you simply through faith or election to Grace. It is, at heart, a works-based philosophy of salvation.

 

Mendalla

 

I have a Buddhist friend at work who loves to talk about religion and I have been trying to find common ground with him. I guess that's one of the reasons/ times I wondered about it. I have a hard time seeing how one can be a Buddhist and function in urban daily life because it's such an inward contemplative faith. I'd have hard time getting 'worldly' tasks done. I have a hard enough time somedays anyway. That's not an insult to him. He's a very decent person who I respect. Just a question that comes up for me.

I think that in Buddhism as well as in Christianity, and particularly in Christianity, the way out of suffering leads through suffering. It is through suffering that we are redeemed, and Christ's suffering on the cross is our poignant metaphor for this.

 

 

 

Good point.

See, that's completely abhorrent to me. Somebody had to suffer for me? No, that's crazy talk. We redeem ourselves, not for some God, but for our own sense of self-worth, and one of the ways we can do so is by reducing the suffering of others. Saying someone suffered for me is just an attempted guilt trip.

 

Well, in Christianity we're supposed to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus. A metaphor for accepting suffering for the sake of others. It works in the here and now- if you think of suffering so the next generation's future can be better, for example, or non-violent resistance to corruption to make things better for others, or giving up what you don't need so others' needs can be met, risking your life to rescue someone, etc. Living selflessly.

Oh, absolutely, there is such a thing as a selfless act. The Jesus story is a baseless act, because we have no reason to believe it actually happened.

 

So, if I'm going to worship somebody, I'll worship the firefighter who runs into the burning building long before I'll worship somebody who supposedly, even symbolically, died for me. I didn't ask for that, I don't need it, and the whole story is so impossible to believe in the first place.

 

 

Hi chansen:

 

I was talking about Christ's suffering being a metaphor for our own redemption through our own suffering, which motivates us to ease other people's suffering. The notion that someone had to suffer and die to redeem us is just as abhorrent to me as it is to you. And I agree with you that it is a guilt trip by authoritarian religion to control people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thing is- I look at that firefighter, I see a Christlike act, the lifeguard at the lake, the person who pulls people out of a smashed up car before the ambulance arrives, the person who gives the last 10 bucks in their pocket to buy a homeless person a meal. The homeless person who helped me across the street on an icey morning for that matter. The person who volunteers tirelessly for the marginalized- speaking truth to power. Those people are where I see Christ. Not the person, the Spirit at work in others. And I don't even care if they're Christian. That's the 'living story' in real time. I really don't think it's about knowing our Bible verses inside and out and going through the motions on a Sunday morning. But those Sunday mornings, I suppose, should help a person recharge their batteries, for whatever life hands them.

Jesus wasn't the only one in the Bible to come back from the dead. There have been anecdotal reports, primarily stemming from Charismatic churches that people are still being raised from the dead these days. If the Holy Ghost raised people in Jesus' time, surely He can still do so today.

 

you consider that reincarnation?

 

chansen, you see value in helping to reduce the suffering of others. I agree, and I believe that Jesus voluntarily went to his death in order to relieve our suffering in sin.

No, I consider it resurrection.

Actually, I've heard that Bono is fairly conservative in his core Christian beliefs. Maybe he's like Francis of Assisi - everyone tries to claim him as one of their own.

 

ha ok 

He's had a reputation for being a bad-a**. Rough around the edges. He's not exactly pious. I like him. He's definately politically liberal. Did you know that he's a big fan of Bruce Cockburn? Another musician people don't realize is Christian. I read that Bono put on a disguise and snuck backstage at the Greenbelt festival one year to meet him. All trivia I found a bit interesting.

 

I can believe it. Bono and Bruce Cockburn seem to be cut from similar cloth, at least spiritually. Even musically, I can kind of see it. Bruce's strong Christian faith was fairly well-known back in the eighties. Don't know about today.

 

My one brush with celeb was standing behind Bruce in a store checkout line in TO. That was probably 25ish years ago.

 

Mendalla

 

My friend met Bono but I've got a few degrees of seperation from that story. I accidentally walked straight into Lawrence Fishburn, the actor, at London Drugs (a big BC drugstore chain) and hit him with my shopping basket. Said sorry. He didn't sue me. I've had a few other minor brushes here in Hollywood North but not people I'd think about wanting to meet. ;)

This seems like it should be a whole other thread, but, ok, if we're noting brushes with famous folk, I once had snacks and discussed Canadian politics with George Takei at a hotel here in Toronto. Also, I met Elwy Yost one day on a TTC bus, and have been interviewed by Dick Smythe.

Duplicate/ added

Cool. I don't know who the second 2 are but, cool, nonetheless. Yeah, since I didn't meet Bono or Bruce Cockburn I had to name drop somebody. :)

Elwy Yost = longtime host of various movie-related programs on TV Ontario and father of screenwriter Graham Yost (Speed, Broken Arrow, Speed 2, currently working on the TV series Justified)

 

Dick Smythe = local broadcaster in the GTA

 

Mendalla

 

 

From what?

 

The mistakes we make. The reasons we may feel unworthy. We have it within ourselves to lift the moods and the self-worth of those around us. We have it within ourselves to be better people, not because of some ancient myth, but because we have empathy and the tools to use that empathy as motivation to make the world a better place.

 

And if that doesn't work, there's always coffee.

 

 

Fixed yer typo.

 

Mendalla

 

Step 1: Create a problem

Step 2: Solve the problem

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Prophet

 

Seriously, anyone who tells you that you have a problem you can't see, and then in the next breath tells you he has a solution to your problem, is a scammer.

 

 

I'm always spelling alcohol wrong. Thanks.

 

I think it's time for a coffee-based beverage.

 

Kimmio - I don't understand how you see those examples as 'suffering'

Taking risks for others. Giving away stuff you don't need is a weak example- maybe not so much to a person used to certain comforts. It's relative, I suppose, if they'd never known material poverty before. Risking losing your job, your 'friends', even some risk arrest in non-violent resistance (or Gandhi who went on a hunger strike) is suffering. Risking mockery and criticism and scrutiny for speaking truth to power. The person who risks injury or death to rescue someone rather than standing back and playing it safe- that's suffering.

 

Gandhi is a good example. Not just the hunger strikes. He took a few good beatings along the way, too, and gave up a pretty good life (he was trained as a lawyer) to do what he did.

 

Mendalla

 

Yes. And MLK. Civil Rights. Women's Rights. The LGBT movement, etc, etc, etc. Even the person who stands up to a bigoted or unfair company. It's not always a newsworthy risk, but there's still suffering involved.

I'm actually doubtful that the people you list would themselves consider their actions to be "suffering". 

I see most of your examples as acts of compassion.  I see suffering in a homeless teen, huddled on a sidewalk, on a sub-zero night; a thirsty Jesus, hanging on a cross; Quang Duc, the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire; the physical and emotional pain when a loved one dies.

I went to a lecture this morning on Hinduism - it was fabulously interesting to me, as that is a religion I know very little about.  To Hindus, Karma is a concept - currently meaning "the cause-and-effect based on past actions that determines one's present & future state." according to my handout :-)   So in this, I would agree with RevSteven's post above when drawing similarity to some Christian teachings.  

 

There are other applications, such as Karma Yoga (Path of Duty); these practices (not typified by our usual north american concept of 'yoga') are means to realization of one's own nature as being an expression of the Divine - hmmmm ... sounding similar again! 

 

Next week's lecture - Buddhism :-)