My guess was right.

We are far removed from that "problem" Graeme. We can't relate. It's a news story that lasts a few weeks and then we're on to the next big thing.

If the armies and governments aren't doing the right thing, maybe it does take a stronger outside voice from the churches demanding accountability. Who is that person that has so much power? I can't think of anyone that has so much influence other than the Pope. No Protestant leader comes to mind. Who could do it and have that much tanacity to lead others into action?

So we'll just forget about it. In the famous words of Jesus - it ain't my prorblem.More wine!

Interestingly, Haiti was the first Caribbean nation to throw off the shakles of slavery and liberate itself from colonial rule. After that it should have received support from the democratic world, the neigbouring United States in particular, but didn't. Instead, Haiti slithered from one crisis to the next ever since. One cannot entirely blame the United States or the Free World for that. There is something in the Haitian culture and collective psyche that makes this poor country so crisis-prone, and this needs to be addressed by Haitians themselves. But, undoubtely, they need our help! I think Canada is helping a lot, but perhaps could do more.

Hold it.

Haitians were slaves. They were the only slave state ever to win independence. France promptly sued this tiny and poor country for taking away the poperty (themselves) of their former slave owners. France was supported by both the US and Britain because their banks saw profits in helping to underwrite the huge loan Haiti required. It was not paid off until 1940. that tells us more about the psyche of the west than it does about Haiti.

Every American president up to at least Woodrow Wilson has left written record of their disapporal of Haiti BECAUSE it was a black state. Woodrow Wilson invaded it in 1917. It was not the Haitian psyche that caused that. It was, - and there is writing to show this - to convert Haiti to factory farms for people like Dole, and to provide cheap, cheap labour for industries.

That was done in the twenty years of US army rule - and Haitians were moved into the vilest slums in the world.That wasn't the Haitian psyche. That was the US army.

Then the US handed over Haitians to people it could trust - the Duvalier family - one of the most brual regimes in modern history.

When the Haitians finally got to elect a president who would do something for them, the US invaded and exiled the president.

I don't see any Haitian psyche in there. All I see is ecploiting, callous and brutal Christians from Framce, Britain and the US.

So. Is it a moral issue? Should the churches give a damn?

Waterfall - all the christians of the world have plenty of power. They have been happy to use it to kill moslems, Iraqis, Afghanis, Vietnamese. And our churches have prayed often enough for victory for the Christian side.

I also remember preachers talking about the evils of Stalin and Hitler. Apparently, they thought then they had enough power (and responsibility) to make it worth while.

Reminds me of the old hymn.

You will eat, bye and bye,

In that beautiful land beyond the sky.

Work all day. Live on hay.

Your'll get pie in the sky when you die.

Yes, graeme, that's exactly what I mean: Haiti probably is the most brutalized country in the Western Hemsiphere. All that brutality inflicted on them brutalized Haitians and the Haitian culture and collective psyche, so that many Haitians grow up regarding brutality as a way of life. Of course this is a moral issue, and the churches should care!

graeme

The UC did give a lot of money and is still actively working in Haiti. Did  you know that the Can.  gov't didn't match dollar for dollar as it had done previously re the Tsanmi -sp- ?  They came up with a new system especially for Haiti. Also the Can. gov't  has only given a small amount of what was pledged. The U.S. has sent a paltry sum  to the Haiti treasury dept. today.  See links.

They are saying it will take 20 years to clear up the rubble. O man....this is insane! Do you think Bill Clinton is paid big bucks ? I must google.

Quote re Canada:  (  In fact, Canada's contribution to the Fund is listed on the Fund's website as "$30-$45 million" [funds listed are in US dollars].)

Quote:

Note:

The bill proposes a new coordinator in Washington who would not oversee U.S. aid but would work with the USAID administrator in Washington to develop a rebuilding strategy. The position would cost $1 million a year for five years, including salaries and expenses for a staff of up to seven people.

Quote:

It wasn't until July that Congress appropriated nearly the entire amount pledged, $917 million, in a bill signed by President Barack Obama. But without an authorization bill or an approved spending plan, none of it could not be released.

The authorization bill was blocked by Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma. When his hold was reported by The Associated Press, the senator's office initially said he objected to a provision creating a U.S. policy coordinator position that would cost $5 million over five years. Later he said he objected to a lack of cuts in other programs to offset the money spent in Haiti. That bill has never been voted on.

The spending plan was given to congressional committees in September and approved in October, when it was held up amid checks to make sure the money would not be lost to corruption, the State Department told AP. It is not clear if the other, nearly $800 million from the appropriations bill, has cleared that process.

Some US rebuilding money finally headed to Haiti

November 11, 2010
(

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (AP) - The first portion of U.S. reconstruction money for Haiti is on its way more than seven months after it was promised to help the country rebuild from the Jan. 12 earthquake.

The U.S. government will transfer $120 million _ about one-tenth of the total amount pledged _ to the World Bank-run Haiti Reconstruction Fund in the next few days, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said.

"Having completed the process as outlined in the appropriation, we are now moving aggressively to commit that money to Haiti's reconstruction," Crowley said.

A State Department aide said money destined for the fund would go toward rubble removal, housing, a partial credit guarantee fund, support for an Inter-American Development Bank education reform plan and budget support for the Haitian government. The fund's projects must be endorsed by the reconstruction commission co-chaired by former President Bill Clinton and Haitian Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive.

 http://www.wtop.com/?nid=389&sid=2115110 

By JONATHAN M. KATZ
Associated Press

United Church Information on Haiti.

(Pakistan flood relief has also come along since Haiti.)

I  your point, Arminius. Our interfeferences always have a long, long effect. The psychological damage we inflicted on native people centuries ago is still there - with no remedy even in sight.

It's not enough for the church to give aid. It should be seeing international and national events in a Christian context. I don't mean a sort of Mormon government by church. But I do mean that christ's message was surely not just for the poor to accept their earthly faith. There are moral questions in capitalism just as much as in socialism and communism.

The church has normally refused  to recongnize that. That's why JS Woodsworth became disillusioned not about his faith but about his church.

Yes, the damage that we Westerners as colonizers, slaveholders, and missonaries inflicted on native peoples all over the world is immense, and can't be made up for with simply gifts of money. The psychological damage we inflicted takes generations to heal, and requires on-the-spot effort on our behalf, as well as the active and willing participation of the victims and a lot of humble pie on our part, even if it was not us but our forefathers who inflicted the damage. Apart from this being a Christian duty, we are collectively responsible for the damage that our forefathers collectively inflicted on entire ethnic groups.

We, the post-war generations of Germans, took full responsibility for the Holocaust and the enslavement of Slavic peoples. We did what we could to make up for it.

The United States, as victors and occupiers (I grew up in the American occupied zone) dictated this to us. I would like them to do the same to right their historical wrongs.

It's hard to know how to do it. Once a society is smashed, and the world around it is changed, it can't be restored to what it was. It's not only the smashing. It's the change in the world that would make the old society impossible.

The damage we did to native people is still there. People speak of returning to traditional ways as a possibility. In some respects, it's a good idea.But to do so in any significant way would mean changing the whole rest of the country - and must of the rest of the world. One cannot restore a traditional culture in the economic and social context of a very different world. That's the point I feel a hopelesness about.

Right now all these people need is shelter, food and clean water. Nothing else is possible without these simple basics being taken care of first. They've got a cholera epedemic now and survival of their bodies is more important than preserving tradition. Unfortunately it has regressed to this because of the worlds neglect.

Quite frankly with all the money donated to Haiti, if I don't see any massive restoration being built within the next year. I will not donate to any agency that lies to get my money. I will remember and so should all of us.

waterfall

quote:

"Quite frankly with all the money donated to Haiti, if I don't see any massive restoration being built within the next year. I will not donate to any agency that lies to get my money. I will remember and so should all of us."

When I google I read comments by the Americans in general. It seems about 90% of them are angry because the gov't is helping other people while so many of them at home are unemployed and struggling. Its true that the U.S. does badly neglect its own poor people.

Cruel as it sounds I sometimes wonder if in the future some giant catastrophe happened such as the oil crash would we the people use eugenics to eliminate certain people and who would be chosen to go first?  Its like the old story of survivors sailing on a boat, not enough food for all so they choose who gets thrown overboard or something like that.

Haiti is apparently very rich in minerals, gold, oil and gas etc. There are many mining companies working there. One Can. company (  St. Genevieve I think) has a contract until 2025. UN forces protect these companies so the Haiti public has no access and they are kept in the dark. Its unbelievable!  

Quote:

2009 — Eurasian Minerals and Newmont Mining were granted 27 permits in north-east Haiti in addition to the 5 licenses they already owned and existing Newmont permits. They acquired the Grand Bois Land, host to a non-compliant NI43-101 gold resource with development potential and possible copper-gold porphyry system at depth.

(See next post. I've no idea what is true or not true but there are lots of websites saying the same things)

The links contained  a lot of repetition plus old dates as well as new so I won't bother to post them.

Global Research ( reliable I think)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17165

Scroll up to beginning of website for lots of info. on Haiti:

http://www.margueritelaurent.com/pressclips/oil_sites.html#5_oil_sites_in_Haiti

- Eurasian Minerals Inc. Acquires Grand Bois Gold Deposit Property, Haiti, Jan. 26, 2009

Canadian mining companies have a bad reputation all over the world for exploitation of cheap labour, bad working conditions, and environmental damage. Mulroney sits (or sat) on the board of such a company in Congo.

graeme

Its hard to find out very much about the working conditions in these Haiti  mines. Do they bring in their own work staff or is it the people living in Haiti who work in them? 

There was a big battle in N.S. about 2-3  years ago to stop a gold mine from opening in Moose or Moser River.  The people of N.S. lost.  Do the provinces get any share of the revenue produced or is it only that the mines  provide employment for the people?  They take the gold, leave a big mess of pollution behind, and run ......is that all its about?

I see on the UC facebook that the UC is working on these problems.

I just saw this thread.

I preached, I would have to look for the exact date, months ago on Haiti.

I spoke of being sued for the value you represented and that a loan had to be taken out in 1825 to combat a French, United States and British embargo, a high interest loan that was not paid until 1947 (think about that, a loan that will take over 100 years to pay and you are a free slave)

I also did not skip the good years Haiti saw at the end of the 19th century before moving into the interventionist 20th century.

I did not lay blame in firmly any one place or one country because many hands take part. Just as I know many nations turned a blind eye to the plight of Jews and when at Evian their eyes were opened, they turned their backs. When the boat tried to port, it was turned away.... So, I spoke of Spanish, French, American, British, German... the world.  

My son asked me a jolting question. He asked me if any African or Asian  or Latin American nations pactice racial discrimination against white people. There are certainly peoples who hate us - with reason. But I can't offhand think of any period or place of systematic discrimination against whites.

 I remember we've had a few threads on Haiti. I think if I'm not mistaken that Haitis debt has been written off now?

graeme is still looking for answers regarding what can be done in the here and now.

I am interested in if the various  mines are successful in the years ahead  would they benefit the people of Haiti as one might imagine?  From what I can read the answer appears to depend on the gov't and whatever arrangements re revenue are set up. I was reading on these links to get an example. I read that the gov't of Mali gets 20% of the mining revenue but the country and its people still remain very poor. Shareholders naturally win big if the companies are a success but they are generally the rich people to begin with.

I know that mining gold wrecks havoc on the environment. Many people would like to see it stopped.  Still it is worse than ever as it may be  in Haiti's future  case  if the poor people don't benefit anything from it....ditto re oil etc.

Examples of revenue :

Occasionally governments take a direct stake in mining developments. This is the case for Mali, for example, where the government has 20% ownership of gold mines.

http://www.gold.org/faq/answer/7/how_does_mining_impact_the_government_revenue_of_countries_where_gold_is_mined/

Limited impact of the mining sector on Mali’s development

Gold Mining in Mali - Who profits?

As Oxfam America has stated, “Mali’s gold exports have more than tripled in the last decade yet its citizens have so far seen little benefit from mining revenues”.  Indeed, Mali ranks 178 out of 182 countries in the 2009 Human Development Report, being the world’s fifth poorest country. The IMF paper acknowledges this and recognises that the gold mining sector has very limited positive spillovers to the Malian economy.

With such a combination of transfer pricing abuses, low royalties and low corporate profit tax plus a weak contribution to Mali’s development employment, the question arises: “Who is profiting from the exploitation of Mali’s principal natural resource?”; certainly not the Malian people.

http://www.financialtaskforce.org/2010/06/30/gold-mining-in-mali-who-really-profits/

Mining in BC

Mining is crucial to the future of British Columbia as the industry brings in close to $8 billion a year.

http://www.theaureport.com/pub/na/7277

Ron Paul.....lol....

2010

In recent years, Paul (R-Tex.) has poured hundreds of thousands of his own dollars into stocks of some of the world’s largest gold-mining operations, according to a review of his financial disclosure forms by The Washington Post. In 2008, while advocating for the United States to reinstate a gold standard, he reported owning up to $1.5 million in shares of at least nine gold-production companies. In addition, he disclosed up to $200,000 in silver stocks. In all, those holdings represented close to half of his assets.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/06/14/ron-pauls-holding-big-money-in-gold-mining-stocks-washington-post-hints-at-subtle-corruption/

 Haiti's Sand Quarries  - it seems to me Haiti can't win for losing......

http://www.jonahengle.com/Blog/Entries/2009/10/28_Hillside_sand_quarries_digging_away_at_Haitis_environmental_sustainability.html
 

People don't open  mines to give  jobs to local people. They open them to make profits by selling the stuff somewhere. While getting it,, they pay as little as possible, and they oppose any public services like schools because they don't want taxes cutting into their profits.  And if the country gets any fancy ideas that it would like some of that profit, then the US sends in its army. It's happened often enough.

graeme

quote

"And if the country gets any fancy ideas that it would like some of that profit, then the US sends in its army. It's happened often enough."

You always make me laugh.........!

Our local radio station plays clips amongst their music. I heard Dick Smyth on the radio saying to "shut down Haiti" and "move it". It is called "Its Beyond Salvation, Can't Be Fixed" I was wondering what people think of this angle?

http://www.640toronto.com/HostsandShows/DickSmyth/Home.aspx

Hi graeme:

My son lived in Fiji for a year. There he was referred to as "that European fellow" and experienced some minor discrimination. But nothing like people of colour have experienced and sometimes still experience in White society.

In the mid to late eighties I interacted with Canadian aboriginals. I noticed that one group of Natives kept referring to us Whites as "soyappies." Well, I thought, that's their word for "Whites," until one of them informed me, with a broad grin, the "soyappie" meant "so yappie."

Aboriginal humour, eh?