This site alone is populated by a number of people who believe they are the beneficiaries of a torture and death 2000 years ago.  Horrible ideas are everywhere in religious beliefs.

Hi oui

Here's an informative site about voodoo. Apparently its hard to get the truth about it unless you live  there. It seems a lot of the people  are Catholic or converted but they still practice voodoo alongside. They put the fate of their lives into the hands of some supreme power I guess and then receive messages from the spirits accordingly. Something like that....

A few days ago CNN announced the UN decided to only give out  food aid to the women because of the men rioting.  Later the men rioted worse than ever,  they overpowered aid workers etc. so I fail to see the logic of it. What did the UN expect? Its almost as if they're promoting violence.

Quote:

However, many of the non-religious aspects of Voodoo which people often criticize really seem to me to be more the result of Voodoo's overwhelming fatalism. The view is that to an astonishing degree the lwa determine out lives. The Haitian serviteur has little use for anything like the Western idea of free will and personal responsibility. Rather, whatever has happened it is the lwa who have caused it.

If one would like to change anything in one's life, from a current illness to the fundaments of the social system, one must ask the lwa. One does not ACT on one's own. This would be counter-productive since it is the lwa who decide these things anyway.

Further, the lwa are not very changeable. Things are the way they are because the lwa have decided it. This fatalism contributes significantly to the peasants' unwillingness to struggle for liberation.

http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/voodoo/overview.htm

Oui,

we're all quite unsane.  It can be found everywhere.  Our belief mechanisms that help us so much get to where we are today and through life also can hinder us...

Here is one that is simply CRIMINAL:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/middleeast/04sensors.html?_r=1

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

Yes, these beliefs did "help" us get to where we are today, but consider how much further we could have gotten without them.  They've hindered us more than they've helped us, and they are hindering us more now than ever.

Yep, as with all divining rods, these ones for bombs sound bogus.

I don't understand how people actually get to the point where they believe that natural disasters has something to do with the faith practices of its people

It's in the damn bible.

Seriously.  Similar insanity is right there in Genesis.  Fer cryin' out loud, this is a Christian forum, and you can't "understand how people actually get to the point where they believe that natural disasters has something to do with the faith practices of its people"?  Belief that natural disasters happen because of what people do of believe has been an embassasing aspect of faith for thousands of years.

I'm talking aboot something empirical here, not aboot your Code of Conduct, which is what I get from you when I read your writing of all your iterations of "Not following the Bible is Good."

For an idear as to what the heck I am on aboot with this, do check out Michael Shermer's How We Believe.The same neurological mechanisms that help us in life also can hinder us.  We have to learn how to live with it.

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

oui,

here's some sane inquires into the 'Whys' of Haiti, by Jarred Diamond:

http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4776

You might want to print this up and hand it out.

 It just absolutely boggles my mind that anyone, in this age of education, could even remotely hint that someone could deserve to suffer because of what they believe.  

Or worse, that their belief could cause a natural disaster.

I am feeling very sad and disappointed in my mil, whose viewpoint was generally middle of the road.  My brother-in-law, who recently moved in with her, is heavily involved in the Apostolic Church.  I don't really know much about them, but maybe that has influenced her?

Boggles my mind too, but moreso makes me feel very sad.  It's actually a fairly widely held belief.  I hear people wonder when they are ill, what they have actually done to make God want to punish them & make them suffer.  Others  just accept that the suffering is God's will or plan for them.  Very different from my personal beliefs. 

Chansen said "It's in the damn bible."  Not if you're reading it from a Christian perspective, it isn't.  Christ insisted that natural disaster, illness, etc was emphatically NOT a matter of divine will (Lk 13, Jn 9), but that we are called to let God work through us to use the gifts we have been given to aid the afflicted, poor, sick, etc.  There seems to be a deep rooted feeling that people "deserve" what happens to them, and this feeling often transcends religion, for it is often held by the non-religious, especially if you are a conservative, and is held by the religious in opposition to what their own faith is telling them.  I'm inclined to think of it more as an inability to conceptually deal with the randomness of the universe and the lack of control which comes with it. By blaming God they are trying to restore that control, even though that's not what God is about.

Voodoo is the cause of the problem because the Religious Right say it is. Who are they to judge? I think that the Religious Right are the real problem. The bible proves the Religious Right are right. Right?

The Religious Right can quote scripture that they say proves they are right, and natural disasters are a punishment from above.  spiritbear can quote scripture that proves otherwise.

Nothing could interest me less than scripture - you can use it to defend any position.

So Chanson you do not believe that God caused the earthquake right. This is something that I must agree with you on. there are meny factors that are at play here., one of which is that Haiti is on a fault line another is that people have removed allthe trees that hold the earth together so they can house and attempt to feed the people there, another is lack of education regading birth control, health issues also stemming from lack of education. I could probably go on and on about this.

That's interesting, Chansen - in order to give any credence to any particle of Christianity, all Christians must hold identical opinions on all aspects of their faith. That would be fine if I could make the same demand for every political party, philosophy or musical genre. Do all atheists have the same opinion about everything?  Since the discussion was in the context of what the faith says or doesn't say, it is definitely valid to use the articles of that faith as a reference. Clearly you are siding with those who view disaster as a divine punishment, and require that the rest of us (if we are to call ourselves Christian) think likewise.  And in that regard, I will state once again, you are wrong.

That's not what I said.  It's your book that is full of contradictions, which naturally leads to multiple different positions under the larger umbrella of "Christianity".

They have exactly the same opinion about the one thing "atheist" means.  Every atheist does not believe in God, but that has nothing to do with this.  It is not a point in my favour.

Your articles of faith are contradictory, so is it valid to use invalid articles?

I'm not siding with them at all.  Among Christians, I definitely think they are the in the loopier of the two camps.  I understand that you have scripture on your side as well, and all I'm saying is that ability for both of you to be right dilutes your faith into insignificance.

chansen,

Is philosophy "diluted into insignificance" because there are different schools of thought. How about psychology? How about body building or exercise or weight loss, when there are different schools of thought? How about foreign languages and many ways to learn them? How about management styles?

Each perspective (school of thought) have ideas. They are rooted in the same thing, but have their own history, assumptions and concepts.

That more than one school of thought exists regarding something, pretty much anything, generally does not dilute the other into insignificance. If one already thinks psychology is bunk, then it is easy to cite the two schools of thought as being a reason. If you already do not like your boss or rage against the corporate machine, then whether it is mechanistic or organismic likely won't matter.

If we use the Bible we will see that people approached Jesus thinking that it was punishment and asked who sinned, the blind man or his parents, or what? Then, Jesus said "Nah". So, there can be and there is (and forever likely will be) more than one school of thought.

Oh, and it is in the Bible that God lashes out and punishes people and causes floods and hurricanes and earthquakes and diseases.... Peoploe do nto pluck this stuff from out of the air. They were taught this in Sunday School and in church by ministers, they were taught it by parents....

Saying that the Bible does not say it serves nobody, because it does say it. Denying it simply makes us look like liars or fools or not knowing our Bibles very well.

I say, it is a book of poetry, myths, stories, history... of people and what they thought about God. Yes, some stuff they thought was great and some stuff was ridiculous.  

Not the same things.  None of those other fields has a "bible" at its core.

Believers use the bible as a form of truth.  They quote it like it has some great significance.  All I'm saying is, it doesn't.  As a guide, and as a source of anything you could call "truth", it's crap.  You can use it to justify anything.

I agree completely that it is a book of stories, and it is an important book.  But there are lots of important books, and the bible ranks among them, not above them.

StevieG - If your conclusion from my statement is that the concept of divine vengence is "not in the Bible", then I'm being misunderstood. Of course it's there. And of course contradictions are there - one would have to be very foolish to think that any document written by multiple individuals over many centuries would not have contradictions.  So what are we to make of these contradictions? Chansen says throw them all out. Well, I'm a scientist, and in science, one doesn't "throw out" something simply because it's contradictory. If that were the case, many valid theories would never see the light of day. And it's not just a matter of "proof", as there are many things that may not be proven or disproven until well after I'm dead.  Science does not and will never imply the lack of contradiction. I fail to see why that would not also apply in the humanities.

As far as Biblical contradictions go, there are two principles I apply: first, that the Bible is a continuum that documents the development of our faith. That means that as human society develops (from hunter-gatherer, agrarian, industrial) so too does our faith because frankly, I don't hunt for my supper with a bow and arrow. In an era where there was no police force, few were literate and "justice" had to be very visible, vengence formed an integral part of the social order. I would hope that human society has grown beyond that, but that has depended on development in social structure. So some of the writings of the Bible are applicable only if we were living in a Biblical-era society. But some of the thoughts transcend time and are more applicable to all of humanity.  Secondly, to be called a "Christian", one must agree to see the whole of the Bible through what we call the "lens" of Christ. This goes back at least to Augustine (c400). If something "in the Bible" contradicts Christ's fundamental message of peace, forgiveness, generosity and justice, then that contradiction must give way to the greater message. Chansen makes the common error in believing that Christians must believe that all parts of the Bible are of equal validity in today's world. They are not.  So when some "Christians" say that nature disaster is the "will of God", they are not applying the "lens of Christ".

dbl post

Chansen said "You can use it to justify anything".  Just as you can use scientific literature to "justify anything".  Evolutionary theory can be used to justify social darwinism and fascism. I have heard many people refer to studies on cancer and come away with the conclusion that "everything causes cancer".  And if all studies were equal, one might think that. In the end, in faith, just as in science, our conclusion depends on what value we give to each part of the story. And for Christians, Christ is at the centre of how we arrive at that value.  Not all "Christians" apply that rule, which I find regretable, but I don't have any magic power that can change their mind.  All that I can to is to put forwar the counter-thesis.

Good stuff, I like this.

Bolt

No, you can't.  You can try to use bad science, but it should fail at some point in the process.

Oh fer Chrissake.  You really want to try that line of reasoning again?  the application of evolutionary theory to so called "Social Darwinism" and fascism is twisted and not representative of the ToE.   It is simply the twisting of what the ToE says to fit the social views of some, just like the words of the bible are twisted to fit the views of homophobes (not that all verses need the twisting).

That's why researchers cringe when reporters try to summarize their findings in 10 words or less.

All studies aren't equal, and we have criteria by which we can separate them.  Separating bits of the bible is not as easy, and some will tell you the whole text is the Word of God, and cannot be separated.

And therein lies the problem.  You're both right, and you're both wrong.  There will be no moving forward while you're both looking to the bible for answers.

.

We finally got blackbelt to compose a well-defined point.

LMAO on the floor almost in tears!!!!!!

Sorry blackie.

Bolt

LOL, i was trying to post a picture but it didnt work, and unfoturnally theres no delete button.

You are a true child of God, blackie!

Bolt

Stardust, thank you for your information on vodoo. I admit, I know very little. However, in an indirect way, I wonder if the fatalism you report about worship of Iwa, has had a negative effect on Haiti's progress.

    A couple of thoughts - given freely, hopefully not to make me a racist:

    From the supposedly true account in "The White Witch of Rose Hall" . Annie Palmer was raised by a voodoo priestess, in Haiti, after the slaughter of the French aristocracy. In Jamaica, she cruelly ruled over a vast plantation, because she was "skilled in all the black arts". (Suggestion: read the book, by a former editor of The Gleaner.)

    Haiti - the world's only successful slave revolt.

    I asked Dianne Schmidt, a Belizean born Garifuna, if there was voodoo in Belize. "No, she replied. You'd have to go to Haiti for that."

    A Miami policeman: the criminal element among Haitians are very low. Give them $10, and they'll kill whoever you want.

    From a Jamaican: Haitian people are very kind - they'd cut their heart out and give it to you, if they could.

   Could it be, that the violent mobs we read about, are not the majority? That the view that the world gets of our country, also may be very distorted by the media?

                                                                                                                Lovebelize

Stardust, you might want to listen to this.

Here is an interview with Jared Diamond on Haiti:

http://www.openculture.com/2010/01/jared_diamond_explains_haitis_endurin...

Interesting to hear the history he gives of Haiti, that it apparently used to be quite rich;  it puts my ignorance into perspective (I find myself falling into two ideas re: Haiti -- that of 'US interference' and 'they have a poor lifestyle')

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

Lovebelize

I'm still following all of  the Haiti news daily on CNN. I've also posted a lot about it in politics.  Please read some of that . I think I have two threads on it there. Its kind of an obsession. I also have more threads about Haiti on this board.

your quote:" Could it be, that the violent mobs we read about, are not the majority?"

There has been lots of government corruption, dictatorship over the years. Prior to the earthquake there were 8000-9000 peacekeepers there since some years.  What does that tell us?  Now another 2500 or more have been added. There are villages or areas totally controlled by violent gangs. Its so unsafe to go there that aid has to be dropped, not knowing if its getting to the people or not. Violence comes from  extreme poverty, drug trafficking . High unemployment . 68% of the mothers are single trying to raise their kids. Isn't that horrible? They give their  older kids away to the richer families where they are  held  and work as child slaves receiving no education and no pay. The mothers  beg foreigners, it could be anybody, to take their children. How sad is that?

  God help the many children and adult amputees. Prior to the earthquake disabled people were discarded and left to die. Don't quote me but I think they have 2000  doctors for 8-9 million people. The professionals all leave Haiti to make more money elsewhere.

I know....I know....we're not supposed to say Haiti's cursed. Its not politically or ethically correct . Still its bombarded with corruption from without  ( from the U.S.) and within. The UN itself is a totally futile organization and needs to be overhauled and replaced. It seems like there's make-work programs for outsiders who take advantage of the poverty and make big bucks for themselves off the backs of the Haitians. George Bush told the world that aids originated in Haiti when it was rampant there. That sure didn't help.

your quote: "I wonder if the fatalism you report about worship of Iwa, has had a negative effect on Haiti's progress."

I wonder how they identify or know if Iwa is speaking to them? I know they go into trances in voodoo and the spirits speak I guess through a person. Still some Christians have similiar beliefs in the Holy Spirit speaking to them although they believe it comes through scripture. But for the Haitians....if you are hungry, if you are afraid.....you can't think properly and have any kind of normal life...so you settle for whatever fate dishes out. I suppose its the easy way or they are so beat down.....

InannaWhimsey

Thanks. I'll check your link. I know the problems. I'm pessimistic. I think it is like it is.......a rose is a rose is a rose....its too late for Haiti.

Thanks for the link IW. I started to listen to it last night, and then saw how long it was. I will listen to the whole thing today or tomorrow. My husband is a big Jared Diamond fan, and I have considered reading his books too.

I liked the multi-factoral approach he takes in the beginning of the clip. I assume he continues and elaborates on it. For instance, the unique language that many Haitians speak creating an isolating effect for Haitians was interesting. Also, that the elite speak French, while the majority of the population speaks the Haitian Patois, or that DR speaks Spanish, so they can participate in the world business, so can prosper.

I look forward to listening to this more.