The only  people who can understand the Bible are those who accept Jesus who gives us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us -----The Natural man will not understand the message of the Bible according to scripture -----The Holy Spirit Teaches all Truth -- 

Faith requires action -----

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the premise?
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George
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I can also agree... except its not the bible that is easy to understand. God through Christ can be easy to undetstand and easy to do.
Kierkegaard's point is that the hearing or seeing is in the doing. Those who do: see, hear and understand in doing, being and existing in this world.

Kierkegaard and the 19 and 20th century existentialists sremed work out existentialism in temporal terms alone.

In any case, the act of doing precedes the act of knowing. We exist spiritually of God and from God, in existing "from above" salvation is grasped holiness undertaken.
regards

Hi Goefee

I believe we need the Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding of what the Bible offers ------and without the Holy Spirit to be a doer of the word will not be effective ----as we are away from God trying to be a doer on our own accord ----I believe it is good for people to hear the word but it will be of no effect unless we want it to be ----It can go in one ear and out the other ----up to us ----

Peace

Hi Aldo,

Maybe you could share a little to illustrate what it is that God through Christ expects of those who hear and believe? Picking up the text from James, offered by unsafe, what does it mean to be doers of the word?

I take my bearing by reference to Socrates, who distinguishes between being able to talk about something and actually doing what is being talked about. No matter how clever the talk, without the doing, it cannot be considered as knowing. It is nothing more than opinion.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

George

Hi unsafe,

I know many persons who speak of being baptized in the Holy Spirit, insisting that they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet completly at odds with what the Holy Spirit reveals in the words and deeds of Jesus of Nazareth. This leads me to think of what James wrote in his epistle:

"But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Do you think it is possible that there are persons doing what is true and right without knowing anything at all about the Holy Spirit and that there are other persons who talk much about the Holy Spirit but do what is false and wrong? This seems to be spelled out by Matthew when he talks about the seperation of sheep and goats in the day when hidden things revealed for all to see.

What do you make of the Samaritan who does what is true and good, even though the people of the book refused him admittance to the divine company?

George

The commandments are eternal and they are "doable". There shoul be no fear to fall into the hands of a living God.

This is what I believe -----

When we accept Christ we have a new Spirit ---We are Carnal Christians  -but our mind is still living in this world ----so like Paul who who said this in Romans 7 read the whole chapter  -----Our Spirit is perfect but our old sin nature is still dominate in our mind ----That is why our mind needs to be renewed to God's way ---then and only then will you do good God's way -----our goal is to aline the spirit --soul and body ----until you renew your mind --your spirit is out of line with your soul and your body moves to your old thoughts ---- The scripture say be transformed by renewing of your mind -- Many die  Carnal Christians ----our goal is to mature to a Spirirual Person ---one who relys on the Spirit for all things not this world ----

God’s Standards Are at War with Sin’s Standards

Jesus is speaking  here-----The Flesh refers to our way of thinking ---

George

I will get back to you with some examples ...

There are many out there from many people... the specific have not been collected and collated and offered up in a program format, all of which is doable and I think would prove invaluable.

one of the most terrifying things aboot life is, i think, i am *responsible* for who i am, my thoughts, my actions...

these actions, feelings,, that naturally arise, that of mercy, forgiveness, agape, tis much easier to attribute it to some book, someone else...

our neurobiology seems to be set up in such a way to favour groupthink (for good and ill and neutral)...so perhaps our books, moral philosophers etc, provide us with a way that utilizes this predilection of ours...

I agree with Inanna: There are our individual creations, and our collective creations. Because we have evolved into strongly cohesive group animals, our collective creations, our group thinking and tribal thinking, tends overrule individually autonomous thinking.

So what does that have to do with Soren Kirkegaard, or the foremost Christian commandments: loving God, loving our enemies, loving our neighbour as ourselves?

Plenty. In our collective thinking, "God" is an abstract entity, a separate, supernatural, authoritarian, and humanoid creator ghost. It is difficult to love such a ghost. It is even more difficult to obey the commands which this authoritarian ghost supposedly issued. Moreover, in our collective thinking, unquestioning belief in doctrine has become the essential element of faith, and we are pre-occupied with determining and believing in the right doctrine. What's worse, tribal thinking compels us to divide ourselves into us and them groups: those who follow the right doctrine and those who don't.

If, on the other hand, God were collectively regarded as the self-creative totality of being, then God would be very real and easy to love. Then loving God would be the same as loving our natural environment, loving our fellow beings of the plant and animal world, and, most of all, loving our fellow beings of our own species, including ourselves.

And if we were collectively permitted and encouraged to fall in love with God rather than being commanded to love God, then our love for God would be solid and unshakeable, and naturally result in loving action toward everyone and everything, including ourselves.

Hi waterfall...

I wonder, does this suggest that we are free to act just as we wish with no regard for consequences? What follows where this is admitted?

George

It would suggest that if we love God and others as God loves us, then there should be no fear in that.

Hi unsafe...

I agree with this. Among those I take as exemplars of spiritual maturity is Jesus. He makes his mandate, his vocation, plain by stating that the Holy Spirit has anointed and authorized him for a purpose. This purpose is expressed by doing the word of God.

The gospel story notices a day in which the disciples of the Baptist come to question Jesus. They want to know if he is the one who has come to fulfil the scriptures. Jesus answers by pointing to the acts of liberation which follow his presence and activity among a population exploited and oppressed by priests and politicians.

I find Kierkegaard's premise sound because I have noticed that the majority of those who profess faith in Jesus, are very little concerned to do what it is that Jesus did. He lived simply, being content with the provision of daily bread. Is that what Christian persons are determined to do? He lived out of his own relationship with God and refused the external authorities of Religion and Politics. Is that what Christian persons are determined to do?

Scripture may be twisted and turned to serve any purpose under the sun. Examples of this are available on all sides. What purpose is revealed to you in the way by which Jesus interprets the scripture of his day?

George

Hi Aldo...

I will stay tuned...

George

Hi InannaWhimsey...

I agree. As I see things, this comes very close to expressing the whole literary offering of Kierkegaard in a nutshell.

It seems to follow that, being free and responsible, I recognize the free responsibility of any other met along my way. This motivates me to exercise my free responsibility, creatively and courageously, in encouragement and support of the free responsibility of any other met along my way.

Surprising as it may seem, it is not always easy to encourage free responsibility in others. It seems conformity to the expectations of external conditions and constraints, by which free responsibility is abrogated, is desirable to the great majority. Hence the proliferation of Religion and Politics in collusion against free responsibility.

O that it were not so!

George

Hi Arminius...

Always good to pass time engaging your words, sentences and paragraphs.

George

Hi waterfall...

Indeed. Perfect love, for God and for neighbour, casts out all fear. We begin by trusting that we are loved. By this we are encouraged and empowered for the practice of love. By that practice love matures and brings benefits within and without, in and through all our relations.

George

Hi Goefee

It is very easy to agree and and talk the talk it is much harder to walk the walk and believe and do the will of God in your life  -----to totally rely on God for our needs --We do well with this when all is going smoothly in our lives but then when a storm comes we stray and sometimes Blame God for what is happening in our lives --Jesus taught to trust and believe and to do ---- He taught in the light there is no darkness -----He taught not to conform to this world's way of thinking and doing  --to repent and change our ways  -----He taught that we shouldn't store up things in our lives ---that we are to give to others and trust God to look after our needs ---- and He showed examples through His Parables ---- He taught how to get answered prayer ---He taught to speak to our mountain not about it ---He taught us that we have the ability to do the impossible ----Peter through Faith walked on water till he lost his focus on Jesus ----- and on and on ----

Jesus as I see it lived a hard life not a simple life  when He started His Ministry  --travelling on foot or a donkey  ---getting kicked out of certain places because of His message ---people after Him to heal themselves and or others -----doesn't sound like a simple life to me --Jesus was never without anything He needed though ----He was never in lack of food --water ---or shelter when He needed it He wore an expensive Tunic that was only worn by a High Priest ---He had funding for His Ministry ----He had a treasurer who stole from His purse and it went unnoticed --so that says to me there was more than a little in the purse ---- so I believe Jesus was as comfortable as He could be travelling as He did ---If you mean by simple life He didn't have a lot of material things in His life then I say this He has as much material things in His life that He needed for what He was doing --

As Far as scripture goes ---I agree that people can use in different ways ----But the People who want to mature in Christ and who are serious and trust in God's word which says The Holy Spirit will guide you in all truth must rely on and trust in what God says in His word -----AND ASK FOR GUIDANCE when dealing with scripture ----The Bible is very clear on who we should listen to ----We cause a lot of our own problems by listening to everyone but the Holy Spirit ----That is just my view ---  The Holy Spirit directs each person's life in God's will for that particular person -----if you listen and do what you are directed to do by The Holy Spirit you will have success in whatever you do -----This I know for a fact -----

Peace

Scripture may be twisted and turned to serve any purpose under the sun. Examples of this are available on all sides. What purpose is revealed to you in the way by which Jesus interprets the scripture of his day?

Excellent thread, George...and Happy Birthday...a couple of weeks for you a month for me....ain't gettin'old fun, youngtster?

When his disciples asked him if he came to teach religion or morals...he said no....

his purpose is for an understanding of life and how to live it abundantly. 

No Christian scholar I, but I think far too much time is spent on conjectures of his resurrection. and 'miracles'...too little time on what he taught...and far too little energy

acting on what is learned... 

(If there is seen any condemnation in this opinion, it's directed at me.)

Cheers!

Hi unsafe,

I appreciate your response, and welcome the presence of your own voice. The voice God has given you so that you may bear witness to the Love of God, which has been, now is and ever will be, the way leading to life which is life indeed.

I am wholly shaped by my immersion in scripture. Not just some scripture, but all scripture; believing that I may be inspired and encouraged by the grace of God at work in and through the writing of others following along the opening way.

Now nearly thirty years ago, I heard the word of God pointed to by a text from the book of Jeremiah: "Call on me. I will answer you and show you things you cannot now imagine." Well I called and was answered, by the word of God expressed by the breath blowing across the vocal chords of Jesus the Nazarene: "Follow me."

Jesus teaches those who hear his voice to pray for daily bread. In this he fosters a way in which the elect share all that they have, with no one considering personal possession as being a private possession. Possession was considered stewardship of the common good and Jesus made clear that the failure of faithful stewardship would produce social and cosmic imbalance. If not checked the imbalance brings forward chaos.

I first heard this in a brief text by Thomas Kempis, "The Imitation of Christ". The author, inspired by experience with a living God, not a dead letter, notes, just as you do, that it is easy to profess grace circumstance is favourably disposed. He goes on to propose that grace comes most into its own the more circumstance is turned against our hope and concern.

Is that not what we mean when we speak of taking up a cross. I know many who love to follow Jesus into the pastures of plenty. Some going so far as to form weapons and armies, in the name of God, can you imagine, to protect what is rightfully ours against the hungry outsiders. I tend to see Jesus in with the hungry outsiders where this is the case.

Where is the Christian witness against the injustice of our Politics and our Economics? What we hear is talk about a future heaven and a future hell. Those who support the preacher and fund the temple are blessed with the promise of heaven. Those who prefer other ways are dismissed simple and casually as the lost and the damned.

I was alone in Canada for the better part of a decade. In all that time I carried no begging bowl or walking stick. I was as one who had no place to lay his head. You can imagine that this experience has given me some insight into the story about Jesus. Many times I went long periods without food other than what I might find along the path. I often remembered Elijah, who, you will remember, was fed by Ravens in a delolate place.

I very much appreciate the exhortation with which you end your post.

George

“By two wings is a person lifted above earthly things, even by
simplicity and purity. Simplicity ought to be in the intention,
purity in the affection.”

-T. Kempis
 

Should a prayer have two wings as it is meditated about as a stray thought? This could lead to intellectual emotives ... a double entendre ...

Just for Jeo Gi ...