Unsafe, how do you know that the story is true?

Hi Don.Jae

Are you calling this boy a liar ----how do you know it isn't true ???----

Hi unsafe,

You know.  It is quite possible that this is what the boy believes.

That doesn't mean that his recounting of events is factual.

The boy doesn't need to be a liar.  He might possibly be mistaken.

And if he is telling the truth, if he really is recalling facts.  What then?

Grace and peace t you.

John

This sort of thing embarrasses the hell out of Christians because it demonstrates how little evidence you guys have for your god. When you're trotting out a child to explain how he saw heaven when he was a seriously ill toddler and making a freakin' movie of it....that's demonstrating the weakness of the hand you're playing with.

For that, I don't blame the kid at all. He probably believes it by now. Somebody filled his head with this stuff, likely either his parents or his minister. They're the people I'd blame for this debacle.

unsafe, what makes you think that posting things like this is a good idea? This is the sort of stuff atheist sites often share under a heading like, "Look what the Christians are giving us now." I've seen lots of articles and videos like this, but I don't care to repost them here because I know they aren't representative of what Christians in the UCCan believe. Spreading these stories where children are exploited to make a really bad argument in favour of God, aren't helping you. 

you have been here long enough to understand that Christians do not become christians by the knowledge or lack of it or any educational level, Christians , Like ATHIESTS come in all sorts of backgrounds, to PHDs to the simple poor person living in a soup kitchen. 

or likely his experance can infact be true, placing what you believe to be True about this boy in your assumptions of events , would put you in the same catagory as you metioned above.

Thanks Unsafe, 

I enjoyed watching that Video 

I did read the book a few years ago. It's one boys description of what happened in his near death experience. Hold it up against all the other near deathe experiences to get the full picture.

I read the book a few years ago as well, Tabitha.  I thought that it would have been a cute story if they had not pressed the truthiness of it.  I likely will not see the movie because it doesn't ring true for me.

That doesn't address my point at all. If you want to get into the percentage of science PhDs who are atheists, it's not going to go well for you, and you know it.

If you're trying to say that knowledge and evidence isn't important to believers, then why are Christians constantly trying to provide evidence? I think the efforts of Christians to point to anything as proof, shows how desperate some Christians are to have proof.

So, only one near death in millions gets a glimpse of heaven? And why near death? Isn't God jumping the gun there? God doesn't know where life ends and death begins?

The more likely explanation is that this kid's brain has been filled with stories and images from a Christian influence.

Near death experiences simply reinforce something Neil Degrasse Tyson talked about in a lecture I was watching last night (see Netflick Recommendations thread in Popular Culture for more on this series).

He talked about how whenever science seems to hit a limit or lacks a clear explanation for something, people jump in with "it must be God". Eventually, in most cases, science catches up and ultimately manages to put forward a hypothesis that is tested and accepted. That hypothesis is never "God did it".

Eg. Newton's mathematics for gravity worked beautifully for two bodies, but could not handle the entire solar system. When he tried to work out the whole thing using his mathematics, the solar system flew apart. His response? Divine providence acts to keep things working. A century or so later, Laplace came up with a mathematical model based on Newton but capable of accomodating more than two bodies. The need for "Divine Providence" vanished as he showed that gravity could, in fact, hold the Solar System together on its own.

NDEs are in this category. They may be neurological phenomena or some other natural phenomenon that science will eventually accomodate with a testable hypothesis. Until then, we can put them down as "inexplicable" and even "mysterious" but putting "God" or "heaven" forward as the explanation is jumping the gun and is not a scientifically testable hypothesis. It still requires faith in "God" or "heaven" to be accepted.

Which is why I remain an agnostic on these things. If you cannot test it scientifically, then only faith or experience informed by faith can be the basis for accepting it as reality. At the same time, you cannot scientifically rule it out, either. If there is an afterlife, we cannot know its existence or nature for certain until we are dead. All of the various ideas about an afterlife, including NDEs, require faith until such time as a testable hypothesis is formulated and tested.

Mendalla

I personally believe that this boy and others have seen heaven so for me this young boy is telling the truth -----We will all know for sure when we die if this really real -----many believe we go no where when we die ---so truth is in the beholder of what they believe --in my opinion ---

Peace ----

As Tyson also pointed out, electromagnetic radiation comes in "spectra." We are most familiar with the spectrum of light, and that of sound, but all radiation comes in spectra which reflect the quantum state of energy.

Tyson further pointed out that the words "spectrum" and "spectra" come from the root word "spectre," which means "ghost." Before the nature of electromagnetic radiation was scientifically known, it was assumed to be ghostly or supernatural.

I am confident that many more phenomena that are now deemed supernatural will eventually be explained by science. I also think that even that which cannot be explained by science is natural.

"The universe is all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be." said Carl Sagan. I agree. I think the natural is not supernatural but supernal.

and what is your point? that there are uneducated Christians, and athiests seem to be more highly evloved? you think an educated Christian once experancing the Spirit would change ther mind uh, that was my point of the highly educated Christians.

your point is mute 

really?, and science makes no assumptions at all in there theories now do they ? 

unbleavable 

So, only one near death in millions gets a glimpse of heaven? And why near death? Isn't God jumping the gun there? God doesn't know where life ends and death begins?

[/quote]

One?  wow ,,, and you call christians uneducated 

is that what your bassing your love of  evedence on now? Likleyness???????????

unsafe, I neither called the boy a liar nor stated that I don't believe the story to be true. Now, do you have an answer for my question?

The boy said that Jesus was wearing a white robe with a purple sash.

The Bible (the Authorized version, that is) is amazingly precise in the use of numbers, patterns and colours.  Purple is not a colour of purity.

When Jesus was scourged, they put a purple robe on him and mocked him.

The rich man who died and went to Hell in Luke16 was clothed in purple.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH in Revelation17 is arrayed in purple.

Blue represents divine royalty.  The robe of the ephod made for Aaron was all blue. The cloth over the ark was blue.

Red is the colour of sin.

Purple is the mingling of blue and red.  It represents corrupt royalty.

Study mingling or mixing in the Bible - it's not good.

Mingled seed, mingled wine, an ox yoked with an ass, linen & wollen, new cloth in an old garment, etc.

There is no way that Jesus would be wearing a purple sash.

That boy may very well have had a vision but it's source was not divine.  All of the things the boy mentioned that he was told about are known by Satan.  Satan is the ultimate deceiver and thousands or maybe millions have been deceived by this story.

You're close.  The images were from Satan.  The explanation of the images was from undiscerning Christians.  Yes, even pastors all over the world are being fooled by Satan.

*facepalm*

Jews mingled with Gentiles?

My own theory was that perhaps the boy's father - a pastor with an interest in encouraging a belief in heaven - had engaged in some creative story telling in order to get his message out.

But, yeah, Lookin Up, maybe you've got something there.

roflmao   REally  where does the Bible hold a colour code?

Alex, you have to own the right version.

Then why on earth do you want to mingle with us? ;)

Mixing or mingling is wrong? How far do you go with that, Lookin' Up?

Secondary colours (orange, green, violet) are evil? How would that be possible if light is a creation of God?

Are mixed-ethnicity/race marriages wrong? What about multicultural societies?

You mention mingled wine and, yet, we do have wines that are blends (not to mention blended scotches)?

The ox and the ass example has nothing to do with mingling being wrong. It's a practical issue. One is bigger and stronger than the other such that no sane farmer would yoke them together.

This whole post is rather bizarre in its outlook but this suggestion that any kind of mingling or mixing is wrong based on some irrelevant examples from the Bible is the strangest bit.

Mendalla

Hi Looking-up--You posted-----

Lookin Up

A Ruler---

GOD BLESS --airclean33

I think that poor little kid hadn't learned his colours yet before his surgery.  Jesus was obviously wearing blue and the sick little tyke didn't recognise it and called it purple.

Hi All,

The "believability" of this testimony is predicated on two things:

1) that there is a heaven. 

On this point theists and atheists will disagree and so the only concern remaining is for the theists.

2) round trips between heaven and earth are possible.

Here theists will part company.  Why?

Well for a number of reasons I suspect.

For myself I am incredibly suspicious that what is claimed is what was actually experienced.

Granted in speaking of the past Jesus is not prohibitting future action.  Something could have changed so that having such experiences became necessary.

Does that sound reasonable?

Which does not indicate that God is planning to start resurrecting folk en masse.

So why?  What do such testimonies accomplish?  What do we/ have we learned about God that we didn't know before these testimonies?

What does our reaction to such testimonies tell us about ourselves?

Where, for example does the idea that a young child arrives in heaven gets to sit on Jesus' lap and have the angels honour hymn requests but decline to sing Queen strike resonance with our Christian beliefs (if it does) and why does such an idea conflict with our Christian beliefs (if it does)?

Speaking personally I am not inclined to beleive Colton's testimony not because it paints of picture of heaven which is exceedingly trite but because I don't believe that the trip to heaven comes with a return portion.

And seriously, I can see a chorus of angels not wanting to sing We are the Champions because it is so prideful I can't believe he didn't request Bohemian Rhapsody.  If I was going to request a choir to sing anything from Queen it would be something that they used multi-tracking for.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Lookin Up wrote "Purple is the mingling of blue and red"

I love it when blue and red mingle.  The energy of red.  The stability of blue.  Makes a perfect purple.

I recall that Moses had a special request for some purple fabric...

My colour blindness gives me issues with the purple part of the spectrum (or so it seems) so I'm not as big a fan of the colour as some (I'm very big on neutrals and primaries) but I do think Looking Up's take on it is ... odd.

Mendalla

I think Looking Up is putting us on.

How can one part of the light spectrum possibly be more sacred than another? I though light was sacred. And light encompasses the entire spectrum.

I have to admit, sometimes chansen is right 

My point is exactly what I wrote above: "This sort of thing embarrasses the hell out of Christians because it demonstrates how little evidence you guys have for your god."

You're the one who made it about education levels. I have no idea why you did that.

What are you even trying to say here???

No, I don't. FFS, blackbelt.

If your point is that I think there is only one NDE, the above doesn't say that. "One near death in millions" is a ratio. A ratio, blackbelt. I'm just saying that a very relative few people report this stuff. Lots of people are saved by EMS workers, doctors, people who know CPR, etc., but relative few come up with these stories.

I don't "love" evidence - I require it to believe something as fantastically fanciful as stories about and God and his son who had to die, but then not stay dead. I'm not built so that I just accept things people tell me - especially when they're attempting to recruit me into their club.

In the absense of evidence either way, I try to weigh what I know. Which is more likely, that the kid has been fed information that fuelled these "experiences" while his body was in a state of trauma, or that he ended up in heaven while he was mostly dead, but not all dead? My position is that it's more likely the former.

My last recalled dream or "experience" is pathetic, but I'll share it here because it's kind of funny. I dreamed that the bananas I just bought were ruined. See, I bought bananas the day before, and mistakenly left them in the car in cold weather for much of the day. I brought them in late that night, kicked myself for forgetting them in the cold car, and that night I dreamed that they were ruined. Next morning, they were fine, but man, the dream was vivid.

Yes, that just goes to show how boring engineers are. But our subconscious is a remarkable thing, and simple stuff can trigger weird dreams. My daughter dreams about dinosaurs. If you tell a kid about heaven, you don't think he could dream he went there? Why wouldn't he?

Wait a sec, the day before, you were doing your best to pick that apart. I finally get around to responding to that, and now I'm right?

I hate to tell you the significance of bananas gone bad dreams.

duplicate

This is from a TV show in the US. The same show claims it is alrught for men (not women) to have sex with other women, if their wife is sick.

ALmost all of these so called Christian TV shows with incredible claims are run by people who just want to seprate you from your money. they become  more and more preverse.

It has recently been uncoverered that Canada's 100 Huntley St,  Is now run by a heretical break away Moonie cult.

After almost being forced to shut down when it was revealed that two of the hosts and sons of their founder were second tier Ponzi scam investors (they not only investigated their own money, but were paid to recruit others, to a Ponzi Scam. 

This enabled an AMerican con man to gain influence and become a host the Rev  Jerry Johnston  .  

He in turned brought in money from a South Korean church. This church is a break away moonie group who believe that there leader David Jang  is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Not only do they have control of 100 Huntley st( which they wanted the name in order be respectable to US evangelicals  and launch a US show)

They same guy has bought Newsweek, and is known to use slave labour from Asia, brought to the US where they work at creating pseudo News sites and pseudo Christian web sites and for which they make most of there money, by tricking people to go to their sites. For example they create sites that look and sounds real, ie. Christian Today web sites sounds like Billy Grahams, Christianity Today 

Unlike the Moonies, DAvid Jangs groups hides who he is and which companies and organisations he owns. It is only since he bought Newsweek, have people in the mainstream media taken notice.  

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2014/03/newsweek-ibt-olivet-david-jang

In fact the biggest scandal today in the American evangelical church is how many of their media organisations like 100 Huntley St  are run by a slave driver who believes that he is the second coming.

That was worth saying twice Alex. We have to consider the source and the "real" motive behind the promotion of stories like this.

Heretical breakaway moonie cult. That has to be redundant in some way. Never bothered much with Huntley when it was run by Mainse so this is a big shrug for me. One con replaces another.

Mendalla

This just gave me a idea for a new word game..   Add an adjective, redundant, but noyt.

So let me add Illegitimate

As in Illegitimate heretical breakaway moonie cult

Than the next person can add another word  lol

Oy vey!  Chansen had a dream about rotten bananas?  My Dreamers Dictionary says that " to see them decaying foretells a tiresome venture in business and self inflicted duty" (doesn't bode well for wondercafe2)  However, if Chansen were Muslim his dream would signify" goodness and prosperity"; and that his desires will be fulfilled (much better for Wondercafe2)

I share your general skepticism about stories of return trips to heaven. However I am curious to know what you make of 2 Cor 12:1-4 and perhaps Rev 4:1ff.

I don't see how this relates. Wasn't Jesus' parable meant to indicate that even Jesus' own resurrection would fail to convince many who did not "listen to Moses and the prophets"?

Hi RAN,

The 2 Corinthians passage is an interesting one.  in verse 1 Paul speaks of "visions" and "revelations" which sets a context then he goes on to talk about a man who was caught up to the "third heaven" Paul also makes it clear that he doesn't know if that was bodily or spiritually nor does he appear greatly concerned that he doesn't know.  Finally Paul mentions that what this man saw he was not permitted to share.

So visions are certainly a possibility and visions of heaven are not within the context of scripture impossible, they are also not common place.  The in the body out of the body debate may simply reinforce the notion of vision and then the question becomes is the vision of something as it actually exists or is the vision something to be interpretted and nothing need exist as described.

I'm not even going to touch on what the "third heaven" as it is a matter of some dispute.

All of which runs into the wall of being forbidden to tell.  Which is not an uncommon occurance in scripture.  How many were healed by Christ in the scriptures and commanded not to tell?  Might all of these modern "visions" be folk who decided to tell anyway?

Possibly, although few recount being prohibited from telling and most wax eloquently about what they saw as if God gave them the thumbs up to spill the beans about what heaven was like.

The revelations passage is clearly a vision, the title of the book rather gives it away, and the language used within the book is coded.  All may not be as it literally appears, in fact, there is a great deal of thought that most of the book is not as it literally appears.

If we decide we are going to take the Revelation as it is and treat it literally then all subsequent visions should be faithful to this particular vision.  This particular vison nowhere records children sitting on Jesus' lap shouting out requests at some angelic karaoke which doesn't do anything top 40.

Well that is the point.  If folk don't believe in Jesus' resurrection what are they going to believe about a child's anaesthesia induced experience.  To be clear what is unusual about the Burpo case is that young Colton did not "die" on the operating table.

While death isn't necessary for such visions it is typically part of the story for most to establish "credibility."

We are encouraged to test the spirits.

Even the one behind this story.

I find it wanting.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I find this person's experience credible. There's nothing Biblically specific about it. It's not from a religious point of view.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight

Deleted duplicate.

To add to the first post another thing that makes it credible to me is that she never announced it as a Biblically relevant revelation. She is simply sharing her experience.

NDE's according to recent studies have occurred all over the world. They (the visions) are usually shaped in a framework according to beliefs and culture so some would say that it could be a vision that was influenced by what influences us while we are alive.

It seems even if one is suspicious of our "worldly" influences the commonality is that they ARE occuring and being reported in all areas of the world to a small (5-15%) segment of the population. It could be more and goes unreported.

I'm just trying to figure out for what benefit. Is it creating more belief or skepticism? Is this an experience that should be shared or is it of a more personal nature? Certainly we are living in an age where the number of accounts can be made more readily available. No scientific method has been developed to be abe to verify these occurences, so most of the data comes from the subjects themselves and their personal witnessing. We can't just "tag along".

I've even heard stories of children that can recount another "life" when they are younger (no NDE has taken place) but soon lose the ability to remember as they get older. Which may or may not mean that they have memories of what came before.

I do find it interesting that this boy had to be calmed down in heaven and that some think it is a more credible experience because it comes from a child. I also wonder if it was God's plan to have a movie created that will be a "money maker" for some or if this medium is any different than spreading the word orally by going from city to city or any Holy Book accounting. Surely theists were influenced by personal witnesses. Does this hold up if we test the spirits?

A great counter to this story is The First Phone Call From Heaven ... bythe author of Tuesday's With Moorly ... moor lieu than tooth and onyx if you don't believe in nailing down the anonymous and autonomous natures! They are subtle lyres ... you can hear eim in the night trees .. as dark! Some people call this Tineitus or the garbage can personae in Sesame St. A lot of clash and clatter between absoulutes and abstractsas both are flighty or fey ... Fa?

It is a great exposition of illusion/delusion and the need to prove all things and thus the quest ... for the thin veil separating truth from verass-ite ... a true ass spinning a myth from out of the Eire'd lands ... these are sometimes known as the realm of the dark lady ... Ur ho'd impress you mind and thus captivate it ... and there it was .. gone!

Every long pilgrimage requires a holiday or gap ... thus life ... a pain to the curios a'gnostics! these people would like to get on with ID ... some do! The Great Escape prevails ... and then you're gone ...

Black po'Et'IX as good as Blake ... and the hunt for Good Wiles ... rare cases in this island society that isn't very social ... thus sociopathè ... a term poorly understood as all things are ... mankind strives towards emotional excellence and total displacement of thought ... cloes to mono rael-in ...

Unsafe, I think it would be interesting if you would post scripture on how to "test the spirits" biblically which would allow us to know if this knowledge/teaching is from God or not.

According to strict literal interpretation that makes the presenter in the above video I posted, is the anti-Christ in that she doesn't come on stage proclaiming that Jesus has come in the flesh( I do not believe her to be the anti-Christ)...she is not claiming to have gone to heaven but to have experienced insight into her experience of having a stroke and what was going on in her brain and her thoughts. And I get the sense that she loves people and that is why she is sharing her story- in her own flesh- to contribute to a healthier society.

Are there any horsemen (horsepersons) here who know the term jillbolted?

Sort of like a slap in the head as when Graham Hancock spoke of his experience with ahazasca ... a hairy vegetable pharmaceutical that can cause a person some incident with the unconscious mind. It has a spiral form, or so I'm told ... I wouldn't know ... suffering a religious youth I was told to think nothing ... and there it was ... gone! Natives the world over call this vegetetative induced state ... sacred! This forms the foundation of a vacated soul or a mind suffering the pain of love ... yo' just got to know such things are temporary and will pass ... the bible says you can see it going ... but UNSAFE wouldn't admit to that! This is the state of apocalypse ... an awakening to alternate things to what you've been told about life and the fringe benefits thereof in the general scro'n up of all that's here ...

This is impossible to those that doon't respect or isolate the soul so as to save it for something later ... hermenuetics? One should prepare for the rational following after leading an irrational life ... in true Roman fashion a thinking personae wears the masque of a dangerous person ... like Eastern Europe's feeling about a man smiling ... they can't be trusted as being stoic, or stern thus they lead up the hynde ND!

And we all know that cow out in the milky way that jumped the muon-ie thus causing a turn around or role ova ... so the fear could be faced ... the lesser power creeping up on yah ...

Such slaps in the head lead to numerous myths and Taurus-like mythras ... deux boueffe's in a caldron? Approaches the ß'eph about the myth of scro'wedging and meanness ... here it is far flung as farce ID crap ... yet quite fertile if you read intuit!

I don't think she is using her experience as a message from God is she?