It's death after life; not life after death, don'cha know.  Dead is dead.  Is dead.  Pretty damn sure since we have no evidence to the contrary; same reason I'm pretty sure there isn't anything to Santa, astrological signs, Skak, gnomes, Ra, bad luck with black cats, the IPU, magic, a million other 'Gods', ghosts and on and on and on and on... And on.

I don't know, of course, but I suspect that there are many different formulas for getting there, not based on the play of our imaginations as much as on our different objective needs. So there would be short courses, long courses, alternative courses. And, of course, we might very well be on one of those courses right now. To be self-aware of that is what I think I would like most.

The moral dimension is another very interesting side of this topic. I would imagine that a serial killer, for example, is on a very 'long course.'  Buddha comes along, though, and suggests 'not necessarily' if he/she meets up with the right rehabilitative conditions.  Or, I would imagine that a very simple, loving soul, for example, is on a very 'short course.' But again, Buddha comes along and says 'not necessarily' if she/he purposes to take a longer course in order to help others having difficulty on their way. Buddha had quite a one-track mind, though, thinking it best to map out the metaphysics of this life rather than any future one. So perhaps his answers were more redirections to the context he felt was most important.

Who knows..... But I think the moral dimension has to be integral in one way or another, because otherwise 'heaven' wouldn't be a safe place to be.

You are a bit like a broken record at times, Brett, and you've overstepped again.  Life after death is not falsifiable, any more than it is provable.  You are being "damned sure" on the basis of nothing.

Many things on this list, on the other hand, ARE falsifiable.

Ok.  I'll take a crack at this one.

I am agnostic.  I don't know, nor do I believe I can know.  It seems strange to me to claim any knowledge of such a thing.

I do believe that we create the "consciousness" of the planet with every thought and action and this might leave a infinitesimally small "footprint" on human history.

But I don't believe the ego survives physical death, and that's probably a good thing.  There may be something else.  That when the ego dissolves, what's left is what always was.  Ego is just an expression of the consciousness mentioned earlier.  Ego -- what we call our "self" is a conglomerate of our experiences, relationships and genetics.

I'm stuck on the idea of my valuable identity, since I need this to survive. 

Might sound a bit nihlistic, but it really isn't.  I find the concept of the  release of the illusion of an individual personality to be a relief, actually.

Hi Happy Genius:

If "being" is being Energy, then being is forever.

No one can deny that we are Energy, and the fact that Energy can neither be created nor destroyed is also generally accepted. Well, if Energy can't be created, then IT must be the Creator! And if IT can't be destroyed, then IT must be forever! IT is! Both!

Not-being is just a state of unquantified energy. Energy is a singularity, in a state of synthesis. But Energy also posesses the creator quality to transcend ITs states while remaining what it originally is. Thus, IT transcended from an unquantified to a quantified state, from orderly to chaotic, and so on, while remaining a singularity in a state of synthesis.

If one regards the energetic singularity as God, then God quantified, multiplied, diversified and "uniquefied" ITself while remaining an energetic singularity in a state of synthesis. Thus, every one of us, and everything and everyone around us, is a unique manifestation of God. God experiences ITself uniquely in and through every one of us; and every one of us experiences God uinquely. We are God-beings living a Divine Life on a Divine Earth.

This insight is heaven! IT is tremendous as an intellectual insight alone, but becomes truly profound when IT also is an experience. To experience ourselves as the divine beings that we ultimately are, all we have to do is still the incessant chatter of our thoughts—as in meditation—and experience reality as IT really is: God in us and all around us!

This, according to my mystical mind, is Heaven!

I believe there is only one way , Jesus

It is not hard for me to establish that there are parts of our minds that exist outside of our bodies, so the concept of our spiritual nature continuing without our bodies appears to be entirely possible to me. "Heaven" is the word created that probably doesn't do justice to what the afterlife really is---but I believe it encompasses how we have developed spiritually and transcends this earth's limitations.

Rather than discount ancient civilizations reasonings about death based on fear (and by the way some ancients were more advanced than we realize), I regard it more as an innate knowledge that generationally has been impossible to discard without consciously talking yourself out of it.

Could there be different routes, though, all well within the Way that is Jesus?

i don't believe so , I believe no one gets to the Father except through Jesus, I also believe for thosue who dont know Jesus, they will be judged by him (as the rest of us)  and  He will still be there door in the spirtuial relam.

  Happy Genius

    I would say it depends on what Bible you read and which one you want to believe .God's book the Bible referes to heaven about 551times here are some      Heaven will be a place of great joy and satisfaction in his presence, for there we shall see God. -  scripture   Psa. 16:11   Psa. 17:15   Isa. 33:17 
        Isa. 49:9,10     Matt. 5:8    Luke 15:7, 10 
        1 Thess. 4:17   Heb. 12:22-23  

There is another Bible- the Book of Satan it declares there is no heaven or hell

The Bible says there is no Heaven and no Hell?"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!”
The Satanic Bible: The Book of Satan IV:2

  It all comes down to what side of the coin you  want to live by, after all we have free will to decide our own fate at death. 

                                     blessings

Broken record questions beget broken record answers, Rev (or are you suggesting some level of inappropriateness?)  And "overstepped"? Not one bit, thank you, Matt. And what were my other 'overstepping(s)', please (no one tells me nuttin' 'round here)?  HG wanted my take and how certain am I...  that's what I gave.

I work on the existence of empirical evidence and there ain't one bit for this very far-out notion. If advocates of any particular pet idea can't come up with a shred of evidence, despite perhaps centuries of trying, I'm pretty damned sure it doesn't exist - but if'n someone comes up with some (fat chance, huh?), I'll reconsider. Otherwise, all the world's whacked out ideas are on the table and I can't be 'pretty damn sure' any one of 'em isn't true. What's your problem with this take, anyway?

Other than Santa, those 'many things' would be, please (remembering that over a million are 'Gods' and many are undefined)?  And the point of Santa is that kids indoctrinated into both believe both at roughly the same level or by the time they're deprogrammed for the Santa belief, they likely believed even more in Santa than afterlife.

"Give me the child for seven years and I will give you the man." -- Jesuit Maxim / Common Experience.

I've thought about this a lot.  I don't believe in a literal heaven in the sense that it is sometimes spoken of (although I respect anyone who does).  I think that the scientific part of my mind just finds that hard to fathom even though I am a spiritual person.  I believe that we continue on as an energy - we rejoin the energy that is God.  That fits for me because I believe in God as a loving and powerful energy of justice and creation and other things.  I don't think of God as all-knowing being who oversees our lives.  Like Arminius I think that everybody and everything is a unique manifestation of God (hope it's OK to borrow your words there Arminius since that's a great way to put it).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents worth.  I have friends who are atheist and have respect for their view that life ends when we die.  I have friends who have a more traditional idea of heaven.  Each person's beliefs have value in my opinion.

TL

No, I meant it in a lighthearted way, although I recognise that's maybe not how it sounded.  Sorry.

My problem is that it is an astonishingly narrow minded view, albeit cloaked in openness.  You are only open to that which can be proven to you?  Really?  You make no allowance for that which cannot be proven, nor falsified?  How do you feel about chaos mathematics?  My understanding is that it is essentially unprovable at this point.  Yet largely accepted.  The essence of light - is it a wave, a particle, or both?  Neither provable nor verifiable.  We have a scientific consensus on a theory, but no proof.

Your position also completely exlcudes the possibility of relative truth.  How do you feel about Schroedinger and his cat, then? 

I believe you when you say you are open to being convinced by hard, verifiable data, but that closes you to so much else that even science embraces.  That's my objection.

I confess to not knowing what IPU or Skak are, so I can't comment on them.  Magic is falsifiable, in so far as it makes concrete claims about it's ability to affect our visible reality.  I falsify the black cat theory every day that nothing crappy happens, since I live with one.  My horoscope falsifies itself on a regular basis.  Some Gods are falsifiable, depending what claims are made about their powers.

edit -  btw, I love the new avatar.  Who's the cutey? :)

 I have never really got the point of positing or worrrying about the great unknown after "life" when there; not a one of us knows for sure what the next five minutes holds for us, even the next breath. Each is a revelation of something beyond our entitlement that's a mistake to take for granted, and each revelation -- when we allow it to touch us -- can be an ample reason for gratitude.

I very much doubt I have ever said - at least in the last ~30 years - anything whatsoever about 'proof' or 'proven' in the context of any supernatural ('proof' would have me over in a nanosecond).  I'm open to things with sufficient evidence.  Don't know enough about chaos theory (assuming that's the same) to respond, though 'proof' does apply better to math. Light displays as both a wave and a particle and thus the evidence is that it is some sort of duality we can't quite grasp as a single concept... but there is clear evidence, so I accept it - who wouldn't once you see the background? Oh sorry, bad question here.)

You assert "completely excludes the possibility of relative truth" based on what, exactly?  And on the assumption that you raise Schoedingers's cat in relation to entanglement, it seems that again, Bell's experiments provides evidence to support this, though clearly with the disconnect between relativity and quantum mechanics, this might change (hopefully, fairly soon if the LHC gives us all we hope for).  What 'relative truth' are you thinking of?

I'll bite... what's 'closed' to me that even science embraces, please?  So, what's your take on an afterlife, since you chose to respond to me without responding to the OP (making this sub-thread pretty one-sided with you being the only one who has knowledge to ask questions - I could 'assume', but you know where that goes...)?

Errr...  I don't believe it's fair or valid to make such sweeping claims as magic, astrology and black cat luck being falsifiable (or false) based on such paltry evidence.  Surely we could claim that prayer doesn't work based on the same 'logic' and science wouldn't have needed to conduct the many experiments it did to come to that very conclusion.  People do believe in concepts like astrology and magic and on the face of it, it seems you're missing (or disagree with): 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." -- Carl Sagan

Hmmm... I put up a 'cute' sunburst pic this morning and recall it replaced a cute redtail hawk pic that was up for a day or so, but don't recall the last 'cutie' I had up (indeed, there have been a few and you might not have the last).  If you describe her, I'll let you know (refreshing the page will refresh my avatar, which is usually changed every 12-24 hours, unless I can't get to a 'net connection). 

And what were my other 'overstepping(s)', please (no one tells me nuttin' 'round here... and so it goes)?

BrettA

We believe in so many things for which evidence is impossible.

If you are correct, I'll not notice. If you are not, I'll be yelling at you "Nya, Nya Nya, you were wrong!...

In the mean time  (A slight bow to Pascal, here:) which is the better way to spend your day?

Cheers!

We do?  Such as?

Happy Genius wrote:

If you are correct, I'll not notice. If you are not, I'll be yelling at you "Nya, Nya Nya, you were wrong!...

In the mean time  (A slight bow to Pascal, here:) which is the better way to spend your day?

Yeah, like 'Nya, Nya, Nya' really cuts it...  Soooo convincing!  Pffffft!  So do you follow each and every single belief system that has ever existed that claims some sort of 'after-life' with complete and utter rigor or is this 'Nya, Nya' the crap it really sounds like?  Run scared all your life if ya wanna, but based on what I see from you as an 'argument' in that post, my way is far and away better, for me.

Edit (Next Morning):  In fact 'Happy Genius', given your attitude inherent in:  "If you are not, I'll be yelling at you "Nya, Nya Nya, you were wrong!", it is my very strong opinion that my way would also be far, far, far better for you.  And for society as a whole.

Thanks for your great reply!

The idea of short course and long course, is easier to grasp/accept than the idea of purgatory...

Perhaps an ever wideneing conciousness and not being besought by corporeal restrictions

moraliy will be seen as mere aspect of ignorance...and  morality as an idea will fade...

...and we rid ourselfves of ignorance bit by bit...uh...forever...

Knowledge was a great invention. probably with "Boy, I'd like to chip rocks like the guy in the next cave...I heard that a guy there knows how to keep fire going...what a wonderful age!" Well, not probably 

Very few people have knowledge concerning this ..but there are many spriritual groups, (Kabbalagists , The Sufi, aspects of Buddah-ism etc.,)  that  work  on ridding oneself of ego--and claim that's there' a lot left....(I think most people are at least in part agnostics. Those who don't and claim certitude should be whipped and hung! Oh. That's been done.

There is so much to your posts I'll just try to address a shard this time....

What a delight! Finally! I disagree with something you say!

Arminius

If "being" is being Energy, then being is forever.

Me:

Well matter is compacted energy. But as billions of particles would tell you they cease to exist the minute (uh, the nano-second) it runs into it's arch enemy the anti partcle...and all this happens randomly.

Yes, I can't even begin to follow the math and am talking over my head, and that's not a new thng....

We can no longer, it seems rely of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, nor the world of Neuton, nor even Einstein, so much.

Artimius:

No one can deny that we are Energy...

Me:

Everything is energy.(Perhaps inclusing Dark Matter, and Dark Energy...

Artimius

, and the fact that Energy can neither be created nor destroyed is also generally accepted...

Me:

Oh eventually the Universe will end having used up it energy (so they say).

You:

Well, if Energy can't be created, then IT must be the Creator! And if IT can't be destroyed, then IT must be forever! IT is! Both!

 Not-being is just a state of unquantified energy. Energy is a singularity, in a state of synthesis. But Energy also posesses the creator quality to transcend ITs states while remaining what it originally is. Thus, IT transcended from an unquantified to a quantified state, from orderly to chaotic, and so on, while remaining a singularity in a state of synthesis.

Me:

I do believe that there will be an atom of your body floating around for a few hundred million years...

That is comforting?

You 

If one regards the energetic singularity as God, then God quantified, multiplied, diversified and "uniquefied" ITself while remaining an energetic singularity in a state of synthesis. Thus, every one of us, and everything and everyone around us, is a unique manifestation of God. God experiences ITself uniquely in and through every one of us; and every one of us experiences God uinquely. We are God-beings living a Divine Life on a Divine Earth.

Me:

A great thought, but there seems to be a lots of 'if' s that have to be accepted before the "thus" --but still there a lot there and a great way to look at the world....

...but I think you world fail the "capitalist greed" test.

you:

This insight is heaven! IT is tremendous as an intellectual insight alone, but becomes truly profound when IT also is an experience. To experience ourselves as the divine beings that we ultimately are, all we have to do is still the incessant chatter of our thoughts—as in meditation—and experience reality as IT really is: God in us and all around us!

This, according to my mystical mind, is Heaven!

me:

And, I think others, including Jesus: 'The kindom of God is within you', and "I came that you have life and live it more abundently'...

(I also think Jesus was a Jewish Mystic. (Minimalist view :-)  )

First: Hi! "Waterfall" is a great name--highly revered in Zen--

Science hasn't yet found out what consciousness 'is' :-)

And I really like :

Rather than discount ancient civilizations reasonings about death based on fear (and by the way some ancients were more advanced than we realize), I regard it more as an innate knowledge that generationally has been impossible to discard without consciously talking yourself out of it.

Cheers!

Hi Happy Genius:

I think and feel that energy is the material as well as the spiritual substance of the universe.

Cosmic energy, together with the transcendental power to transform it, is at the root of being and at the root of consciousness. The transcendental power could, of course, be separate from energy, and just using energy. But, because of the unitive nature of the universe, I assume the transcendental power to be an innate quality of energy.

We believe in so many things for which evidence is impossible.

We do?  Such as?

Transparent aluminium. I (currently) can't provide proof, But it exists. Do you believe me? The Higgs Boson. (ok, that's maybe possible; billions spent on the 'guess' Ever been in love? Can you 'evidence'  it?

[quote=Happy Genius]If you are correct, I'll not notice. If you are not, I'll be yelling at you "Nya, Nya Nya, you were wrong!...

In the mean time  (A slight bow to Pascal, here:) which is the better way to spend your day?

Yeah, like 'Nya, Nya, Nya' really cuts it...  Soooo convincing!  Pffffft!

It was not meant to attempt to convince:If nothing follows death, you would not hear my childish banter - if it does, perhaps I would choose a more grown up phrase...

(But come to think about it, after you die and you hear my "Nys Nya" --you WOULD be convinced )

  So do you follow each and every single belief system that has ever existed that claims some sort of 'after-life' with complete and utter rigor -

-

A silly question; of course not. I have lightly, shallowly pursued the belief systems of several over the last 60 years...but do not make any pretenseof being a scholar.

or is this 'Nya, Nya' the crap it really sounds like?

Im begining to think you really didn't read my post. it was an attempt to say in effect: We will both know for certain following our death - if consciousness persists - if it does not neither you or I will "Notice"

(A bleak attempt to uncrappify my post)

I must quell my "Nya" habit.

  Run scared all your life if ya wanna...

(Thanks, for the offer, but I shal continue in my very contented way...)

...but, but based on what I see from you as an 'argument' in that post, my way is far and away better, for me.

It may very well be.

Edit (Next Morning):  In fact 'Happy Genius', given your attitude

You have discerned my attitude? Perceptive fellow, indeed!

inherent in:  "If you are not, I'll be yelling at you "Nya, Nya Nya, you were wrong!", it is my very strong opinion that my way would also be far, far, far better for you.  And for society as a whole.

I would delight in your surprise to hear my banter in the 'after life' --

But I really would like to hear why you think your way is far better for me and for society. (And why you take on so easily Pascal's Wager - (It was hard for me)

"Man must constantly strive through conceptual reflection to extend, clarify  the fully living but perhaps also superficial and often one-sided experience of belief

Only in thoughtful reflection is the total experience given conceptual expression, made logically transparant and so to made clearly conceptually communicable to others. Reflection is nourished by experience. But experience needs the critical illumination and assurence of reflection."

P.80 On being a Christian. - Hans Kung

It's the clearly communicabe part with which you seem to me to demur.

(I might also, but I ain't takin Hans Kun on )

Happy Genius

I've read several of Kung's books and I wouldn't take him on either.

As far as heaven goes I have no idea.  I will live my life following in the footsteps of Jesus and whatever happens after is up to God.

Shalom

Mate

Hi Happy Genius:

I think and feel that there are two diametrically opposed truths at work in the universe: nonduality and duality, also known as synthesis and analysis.

I believe synthesis to be the ultimate Truth, the capital T Truth, if you will. Synthesis is absolutely True. However, as soon as we analyze synthesis, we take it apart, and it is no longer synthesis or absolutely True.

The analysis of phenomena is not wrong or untrue, but it is relative to the viewpoint of the observer, which is arbitrarily chosen by the observer. Even the most basic scientific observation has two possible viewpoints and truths, particle or wave. Something as complex as the human experience has a virtually limitless number of possible viewpoints and truths. Thus, our conceptual or analytical reality is not so much an illusion—as some people say—but a creation, which is metaphorically or relatively true, and becomes an illusion only if we assume it to be absolutely true.

The absolutely True capital T Truth of the synthesis can only be experienced, and is being experienced, in the pure, unconceptualized experience, as in meditation. The experience of capital T Truth is Heaven, and analytical wisdom is analyzing as close as humanly possible to the heavenly and unitive viewpoint of capital T Truth.

Yours Truly,

Arminius

Well, I think and feel you have something to say that is important.

I get the feeling though, that I'm  reading the Tao of Hegel --

You can't be serious, here - transparent aluminum and the God Particle?...  But on the off-chance you are, then you're dead wrong and should likely stick to "I believe in so many things for which evidence is impossible."

No I got that (sadly) - bad choice of words in 'convincing'.  And sad.  What I said (see below).

Please see bottom.

Read it, thanks - Please see bottom.

LOL... Yet you find it hard to 'take on' Pascal's silly Wager...  Riiiight, scared has nothing to do with it but Pascal's Wager was hard.

I'm floored that you can actually say the above two phrases together - I'd have thought the answer clear and obvious.  But perhaps I'm reading in too much.  Before I respond... would it be your take that I'll end up in Hell (as is the take of many Christians)?

Taking several points together, it's easy as pie for me to (lol) 'take on Pascal's Wager' for the same reason that it's 'a silly question' about other religions for you. Neither of us were brain-washed or indoctrinated into those other religions promoting the concept of Hell, so it's not worth a second thought. 

That is, the concept of going to Hell based on other (equally valid to their adherents) religions is simply silly, as per your description.  But I've never been indoctrinated into believing the Hell you find hard to dismiss, so it's an equally silly concept not worth a second thought - in fact, perhaps much sillier since I've never given the slightest credence to any 'Hell' - or 'God', etc.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in.  Some of us just go one god further."  -- Richard Dawkins

“The whole concept of hell is used to rake in the bucks and keep the sheeple in place.” – Unkn.

Hi Happy Genius:

I never read Hegel, but I think that every serious philosopher eventually arrives at nonduality as the ultimate Truth.

In the final analysis, analysis dissolves in synthesis. (Did Hegel say that? :-)

Hi Brett:

If one—as I do—regards the universe as self-generative, then there can be only one God (the universe ITself), or any number of gods (because everything and everyone is godly), or no God at all (because there is no supernatural God outside the universe).

Heaven, then, is the experience and insight of being an insperable part of the self-generative universe, a.k.a. God. The metaphorical hell would be an absence of that experience and insight.

All this men know, but none know well:

To shun the heavens leads man to this hell.

-William Shakespare

Goferit - I don't take any issue with your beliefs.  One day though, I'd love to sit down with you for 2 or 3 hours and try to better comprehend them.  (LOL... Perhaps, comprehend them at all!)

Hi Brett:

Actually, my beliefs are easy to comprehend—I don't have any! My spirituality is experiential, and the words I use to interpret or explain my spiritual experiences are, at all times, speculative and/or metaphorical.

This spirituality that is beyond belief is also known as "experiential spirituality," or "spiritual atheism," or "atheism in the name of God."

In other (speculative :-) words, my spiritual experience is experiencing the ultimate state of nonduality, or synthesis, which, I think, is the actual state of being. We can experience IT if we refrain from conceptualization, or refrain from believing our concepts to be absolutely true.

Most of those who have tried it agree that experiencing the cosmic synthesis is a spiritual or mystical experience. IT is not a beliefsystem; IT is something to be experienced! Meditation can help experience IT. No beliefs are necessary! Actually, beliefs can get in the way, because one tends to interpret one's experiences according to one's beliefsystem. Some religions and cults (ab)use mystical experience to confirm the absolute truthfulnees of their doctrines. The fact that people from widely differing beliefsystems—and even those with no beliefs at all—have those experiences does not seem to deter their absolutism.

Guess we have huge differences in the idea and meaning of the word "belief(s)" or I'm sadly lacking in knowledge of the human body.  By my meaning, anyone who talks of a "spititual heart" near the physical heart pretty well must be talking about a 'belief'.

Hi Brett:

The "spiritual heart," to me, is experiential and metaphorical, and is not based on doctrinal belief.

The experience of the cosmic synthesis is (what else could it be?) an experience of universal unity, which evokes the emotion of unitive love. This is the "spiritual heart."

This is also why mystics say "God is love." I agree—metaphorically, of course.