yep I believe it exists

Nope, not as a literal place or afterlife anyhow. Ditto Heaven. I can see them as metaphors for states of spiritual being that we can be in, though. Hell is the state of being cut off by not being mindful of our relationship to each other and nature; Heaven is living in a state of mindful relationship with all that is. However, I don't think it's quite this dualistic and most of us probably fall somewhere in between. More of a continuum of possible states of being rather than an either/or.

Mendalla

It is an idea whose time has passed.  Just look at the number of people leaving Christianity - especially young people.  The threats of hell are blatant fearmongering and they don't work any more.  If you suggest with sincerity that someone is going to hell, you get laughed at today.  This was not always the case.

I agree with Mandella, both concepts were useful for keeping people in line 500 years ago, but both ideas are now out of touch with reality.

IT

Russ

A Gallup poll (2004) found that 70% of Americans believe in Hell.  Cardiologist, Dr, Maurice Rawlings, was converted to Christianity through the Hell NDEs of his heart patients.  His research has found that 50% of his patients who have NDEs report "being in Hell."  This includes many atheists and agnostics who don't believe in God or Hell; so it is hardly the product of the patients' belief system.  Why do other researchers report a lower percentage of Hell NDEs?  (1) Dr. Rawlings points out that his patients report their Hell NDEs to him and then soon repress the memory.  (2) He also argues that people with NDEs are iikely to be ashamed of their Hell NDEs and are therefore less likely to come forward to report their NDEs.   My question is this: Given the importance of the doctrine of Hell [Gehenna]  to Jesus, why accept the authority of His teaching if you reject His teaching on Hell? 

Some notion of Hell or the eastern religious concept of reincarnational karma  is essential to ground metaethics in something more than human instinct or cultural mores.  As Oxford philoopher Iris Murdoch (an atheist!) puts it, "It there is no God, God must  be invented." 

The stereotype of the biblical teaching on Hell is morally monstrous.  But it is my contention that the "fairness" of Hell can be defended when illumined by NDEs and OBEs, combined with a proper grasp of the bibilcal imagery and teaching.  I will eventually make this case on my "A Case for an Afterlife" thread. 

A rabbi I know said he did not believe in hell and was promptly asked the biggie about Hitler going to hell. My rabbi friend asked, "if Hitler himself has an eternity with God and God cannot reduce him to a snivelling mess of remorse and regret then what kind of God is it that we worship?"

That was interesting Berserk.  Could you find us some Canadian Statistics?  The citizens of the US and Canada often differ in beliefs, understandings, habits etc.

SG, your rabbi's question is on the right  track but seems to imply coercion.  In my view, Hilter's state prior to his remorse is by definition Hell: "a condition of separation from God." "The Bible and 2nd century Chrisitanity implies that God' is still love for the damned, and God's love never permanently abandons anyone.  But the the damned must be open to learning and transformation.  How this works from the ancient Christian perspective will be the subject of a future post on my "A Case for an Afterlife  Thread." 

Yes I believe in a literal hell. I believe that those who have rejected God's free gift of salvation through Christ will spend eternity there. I believe that they will experience unspeakable torment as punishment for their rebellion against Christ. I also believe that God wants to free one and all from ever facing such a fate and I hope that everyone chooses not to turn away from the good graces of God.

I newly graduated progressive minister found employ with a very conservative congregation.    The congregation was very unhappy because the new minister did not believe in hell.  The minister stayed with that church for 2 years, and by the end of the 2 years he did believe in hell.

Berserk

what da hell?

I'm with Mendalla on this question of Hell ... (back already from vacation Mendalla?)

If there is a hell, it is the hell on earth that we create for ourselves and others.  No I don't believe in hell as something waiting for the 'bad people' after death where they will face eternal punishment. 

If those of us who value 'good' things are rewarded with them, surely that will feel like heaven.  However for those who value things like violence, corrupted power and hedonism ('evil' things, if you will), would rewards like love and compassion matter to them?  Would a place where they are the only paths to follow not seem like hell to those who don't want to take them?

I don't believe in Hell (or the Devil, for that matter either). I believe God loves everyone and that being the case, I just can't imagine God sending someone whom She or He loves to Hell. It seems to me that the truly heinous crimes are perpetrated by people who are seriously mentally ill (whether or not the illness is diagnosed). This being the case, it would be like sending someone with Tourette's Syndrome to Hell just because they could not control their tics.

I know it's only remotely related to the subject, but regarding the vicarious atonement, in order to avoid Hell, I found the following quote on the The Nazarene Way website:

"There is no such thing as Vicarious Atonement; for none can redeem another by shedding innocent blood. The Crucifix is the emblem and symbol of the Son of God, not because Jesus shed his blood upon the cross for the sins of man, but because the Christ is crucified perpetually so long as sin remains. "

Mendalla - ditto.

I think we create our own heaven and our own hell with our thoughts and actions in the here and now.

There is, however, the possibilty that the cosmos, as it unfolds, etches the memory of its unfolding into inverse space in the form of a cosmic hologram.

So what do we want to be known for to the cosmos? It might be good to give this some serious contemplation.

Hell is merely the postmortem condition of voluntarily chosen separation from God. I don't believe that anyone is forced to serve God against their will.   Jesus alludes to Hell so often that to abandon this doctrine is to abandon His teaching, unless one resorts to the desperate expedient of cherry picking prooftexts.  One must also find some other concrete way of grounding morality in postmortem accountability.  More importantly, politically correct pontifications simply won't do.   One must come to terms with the evidence.  Here I don't merely mean the Hell experiences of atheists studied by cardiologists, among others.  I mean  Hell NDES and OBEs that are reinforced by impressive verifications such as atheist Howard Storm's NDE verifications reported in his book, My Descent into Death" and aove all, Emmanuel Swedenborg's awesome verifications of his OBE visits to both Heaven and Hell.  But as already mentioned, I will report of these in detail in future posts on my "A Case for an Afterlife" thread.   

Actually, the NRSV only records 11 times that Jesus speaks of hell. Some of those are "repeats" (ie, the same words recorded in different gospels) so the real number is probably less than 10. I guess it's a matter of how you define "so often" but in all honesty hell certainly wasn't the centrepiece of Jesus' teaching. One could argue, therefore, that an overemphasis on the concept of hell is "the desperate expedient of cherry picking prooftexts."

Does "hell" exist. In some form, I would say yes. I don't accept the fire and brimstone version, but I do think it's possible to choose to be separated from God. Such condition is hell. Whether it's possible for that separation to be total and eternal is dependent on how one perceives the power, role and goal of divine grace.

Excerpt from What Dreams May Come, adapted from a book by Richard Matheson (which he wrote based on exhaustive research of multiple belief systems.  The reference section in the back is HOOGE).  In this clip, Robin Williams' character, who is in Heaven, has just found out that his wife, on Earth, has committed suicide.

I also enjoy Alan Moore's version of Hell in his version of Swamp Thing.  Here, Hell is a place that was created and shaped by humanity.

In one of Neil Gaiman's versions of Hell, Lucifer Morningstar (Satan) gives up his job and leaves Hell.  Since that job cannot be left vacant, someone must fill it, so two Angels are sent down, still working for Heaven, but doing Good.  And that ends up making Hell a worse place to be.

 (one of the main problems I have with a non-literary version of Hell is that people would get USED TO IT eventually.  Humans are very adaptable and resilient creatures)

Of course, this is one of the things that I grew up with:

(as always, I think it is more fun and interesting to see what people's ideas on Hell are...that says more aboot them and the way they tick than any 'outside place of Damnation' ever would)

I do believe that hell exists. I'm not willing to say that it closely matches the pop-culture depictions of hell, but I do think it exists. I have long understood it's not so much physical fire as it is permanent seperation from GOD.

I'm permanently separated from your god, and things aren't so bad over here.  No fire, no smoke, and no suffering, unless you count an infant who doesn't seem to need as much sleep as you might think he should.

Which, of course, raises an interesting issue. Some Christians would argue that it's not possible for anyone to be permanently or totally separated from God - that, eventually, the love of God is so powerful that it breaks down all barriers that we might choose to erect and makes the grace of God revealed and made effective in Christ operative for everyone. This would be, for example, the perspective of the Christian universalist movement (as distinct from Unitarian Universalism.)

This is where my thinking falls as well.

I do not have a concrete belief in heaven or hell after death, or honestly life after death for that matter, despite all the poetic references.  Nor do I believe in angels, fairies or UFOs despite the alleged photography and miraculous baked goods.  Yet I remain open to the possibilities; probably because I watch too many "nature programmes" particularly those deep sea explorations where plumbing unknown depths leads to new discoveries - that Oasis channel will be my undoing yet!

Still I remain agnostic to the after life but very much aware of the here and now.  I contend  there is sufficient evidence of hell on earth and that evidence shows humans are responsible for its creation.  I believe that disbelief in its existence allows its continuation.

LB

And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

     Shakespeare, Hamlet Act 1, scene 5

I find it interesting how we can be convinced of God through faith alone, but discount the possibility of Hell through reason.

We live in a relatively safe part of the world, we have the luxery of removing the possibility of evil in the afterlife and replacing it with the hope of eternal love only. But i wonder if those in third world countries (such as Haiti) would more readily grasp the concept of a hell. While we live on the peripheral edge of their experience and are sympathetic, we are only observers of their pain. They know they cannot "wish" this experience away or change this reality without a radical change.

There is no one that can claim they absolutely know what is in store for us after death. Jesus claimed to know. The truth is whatever awaits we are not allowed the luxery of reason for this experience because we have no experience to draw from except what we observe on this earth in our present lives. And if we know both exist here and now, what makes us think that the spiritual nature of evil cannot continue as well as the spiritual nature of love?

Over the ages we have passed through silly caricatures of hell and the devil. Our understanding of God becomes more mature. But does our understanding of the existence of Evil also become more mature? No, instead we want to erase even the possiblity of it's existence altogether.

Does any light not cast a shadow? Does every superhero require a nemisis? Could death have more than one door?

More and more, people are not being convinced of God through faith.  People are getting smarter.  It's not surprising that they are rejecting the obviously immoral bits of scripture first.  Maybe they'll reject faith entirely in the future, or maybe they'll compartmentalize their remaining faith away from their ability to apply reason.

Waterfall, I'm not so sure that anyone is attempting to 'erase the existence of Evil' here. The question at hand is about Hell and whether or the traditional Christian concept of this place of torture still has our place in our society.

Evil does exist, even Chansen couldn't deny this fact. But is there an eternal abode of suffering that awaits those who exercise evil and for those who simply don't see God the way Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant fundamentalists see God? Or, as is being suggested above, does Hell exist in our own making and consequently do the keys to this abode lie in our hands through time?

If the world really wanted to, we could places like Hiati, Iraq and Afganistan a place of peace and hope. But the world has decided rather to make these places a living hell on earth. It our choice, not Gods.

Or maybe we'll resort to acquiring more material things and  dishonour our complex nature.

I'm asking, what becomes of love and evil after death? Do we REALLY know?

What I can't deny, is people occasionally decide to do bad things.  Interestingly, being religious doesn't make you any less prone to doing bad things.

No, but religions love to pretend they do.

It remains the fact that hell was not the centrepiece of Jesus' teachings. Jesus spoke of money & wealth far more than  he spoke of hell. I don't think we should ignore Jesus' teaching about hell, but we do need to ensure that we understand what he was saying in the context of his broader message, and I say again - to overemphasize Jesus' teachings about hell is itself a form of proof-texting and therefore a distortion of the gospel.

Faerenach,

Your post I loved. I am a universalist, that what happens to one of the created, at the return to the Creator, happens to all.

But, you post made me go further and it made me comtemplate how we came up with the idea that those who love and live for - relish in violence, hatred, evil... how would they feel our concept of Hell was a bad place to be or was punishment?

Hi-- Chansen ---I hope Life finds you well. Chansen I know your not a christian. But I wonder if you know when you say things here like many are leaving the church. You are Quoting the Bible.It says at the end time many would be fooled and fall away from true teaching. some of the things you ask on this thread I think you will fined in Rev--21-----As for those who are saved doing wrong .I believe those that are save where forgiven , not just for there sinns they have done . But for all sinns. I Know I'm not perfect, and as far as I know there is and was only one JESUS.Have a good day . airclean33

Actually, I'm quoting something much more reliable than the bible - I'm quoting census results:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/can_rel0.htm

Note how the percentage of non-religious more than doubled between 1981 and 2001, from 7.2% to 16.2%.  Note also that the median agen for non-believers in 2001 was 31 years old.  The median age for all Canadians was 37.  If we manage to retain the long-form census, imagine what that number will be in 2011.  I'd happily wager 20% or more.  It could be 25%.

The bible has a few warnings about rejecting faith.  Therefore, you have to ask yourself, are these warnings here because they are true, or because the authors of the bible wanted to prevent the erosion of their influence?  Islam also warns against apostacy.  Most religions do.  It's pretty self-evident that the authors of these holy books wanted to protect their faith from outside influences, such as rational thought.  You've set up some pretty impressive defenses against it.

for now anyways

Does it help you get through your day, imagining that those who don't share your beliefs will eventually suffer in hell?

o what an evil mind you have

It all depends on how one defines "God," doesn't it?

If one defines God as the totality of being, then it is indeed not possible to be separated from God.

I think the god chansen distances himself from is the separate, supernatural, interventionist sky god. I don't believe in that god either—and I call myself a Christian.

That would largely depend on your working definition of "being" and your conception of reality.  I think it is quite possible to define God as "the totality of being" and still believe it possible to be separated from God.

If one defines "God" as alcohol, then being drunk is to be filled with God to the point of passing out.  I can change the definitions of lots of words.  That doesn't change anything.  That just makes me really difficult to understand.

Yes, it is.

[Berserk:] Jesus alludes to Hell so often that to abandon this doctrine is to abandon His teaching, unless one resorts to the desperate expedient of cherry picking prooftexts. 

[Stephen Davis:] Actually, the NRSV only records 11 times that Jesus speaks of hell. Some of those are "repeats" (ie, the same words recorded in different gospels) so the real number is probably less than 10. I guess it's a matter of how you define "so often" but in all honesty hell certainly wasn't the centrepiece of Jesus' teaching. One could argue, therefore, that an overemphasis on the concept of hell is "the desperate expedient of cherry picking prooftexts."

You are making the mistake of limiting Jesus' reference to Hell to "Gehenna."   Actually, Hell is one of Jesus' major themes, with at least 25 Gospel allusions, only a few of which are repeated sayings:

Gehenna (11 times);  Hades (4 times); outer darkness (3 times)  eternal (aionious) fire, condemnation, or punishment (3 times) Hell as a debtor's prison (2  times) Hell as "wrath" (once). Hell as expresed in the "many blows, few blows" imagery in Luke 12:47-48) 

Hades was once the equivalent of the OT "Sheol."   But in Jesus' day it was viewed as a place of conscious separation from God.  The Greek word "aionios" is mistranslated as "eternal" in Bible translations.  It means "age-long,"  ande hence is finite in its scope. 

[Stephen Davis:] Does "hell" exist. In some form, I would say yes. I don't accept the fire and brimstone version, but I do think it's possible to choose to be separated from God. Such condition is hell. Whether it's possible for that separation to be total and eternal is dependent on how one perceives the power, role and goal of divine grace.

Agreed.  In my view, the New Tsstament and early 2nd century Christian apocalypses teach that anyone who remains separated from God in a Hell plane does so by choice.  God love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  As C. S. Lewis puts it,  "The gates of hell are locked from the inside. 

[/quote]

Yes, it would.

I want the rantings of drunkards...

-Rumi

since we are in agreement that beings can be separate from God and one another , what about in Nature?