Unfortunately, a quick look at christian history shows an imbalance of violence, politics, mysogyny, ignorance and blatant abuse of power, as compared to its good works.

If you want to find positive "christian heritage", then do some research to see what's there, and then you can concentrate on that.

Well, all the evils were not done by Christianity. They were done by people. It's the not the same thing, not even when the doers are nominally Christian.

But we have gone a step further. There is a genuine "theology", notably in the world of big business, that greed and exploitation and indifference to the needs of others are good, are actually moral. Even the torturers of the inquisition thought they were rooting out devils. The business leaders of the western world don't need that escape. They accept torture as being good in itself.

We are not dealing with a western world that distorts the Christian faith. We are dealing with a western world that is actively anti-Christian in its morality. You find it primarily in very big business - and that big business pretty much sets the behaviour of our whole society.

Obviously, I'm thinking here of Ayn Rand. It's pretty shallow stuff. But it has made a tremendous impression over the last forty years on the people who effectively control our society. This really what Mitt Romney, Stephen Harper, and the UK's Cameron are all about.

We aren't facing a decline of morality. We're facing the rise of a quite terrible morality.

There is still a lot of good meat left in Christianity - specifically the idea of a better rerality (The Kingdom) and the idea that we as individuals can do everything that Jesus did.

Unfortunately they get buried in sermons about "SIN" and an angry god. If churches would take those two good chunks of meat and work with them, people might be more interested in attending.

A church ripped down becomes an everlasting monument to people who were comfortable and refused to change.

When I was a kid the programs and activities for kids at my church slowly passed away.  Most Sundays the church was far from full - and it was quite a small building.  I heard that a new, bigger church was the top priority and wondered why.  There were other much bigger church buildings in the area - all costing huge sums of money in upkeep.

I expect this behavior was quite common over the centuries - build bigger, fancier churches and people will come to fill them.  Obviously, it isn't true.  I could see as a teenager that the problem wasn't the building but the lack of service to the wider community.  As kids 'grew out of' Sunday School, they quit church for volunteer activities - helping with Brownies and Cubs, Rod Cross activities, charity fundraising, etc. etc. 

I, and it seems many others, preferred connection to the wider community more than being pushed aside by the adults at church who didn't seem able to grasp the reality that we were capable of organising things, capable of setting and achieving goals!

Buddha said that "The nature of all life is change".  From this we should not be surprised to see things change including the razing of an old church building.  Society changes and religions that are not capable of adapting to change will natuarally fade away.  This should not discomfit us.

Yours buddy on the Path - Poguru

Well, the general dwindling of Christian faith across the western world, and its replacement by an anti-Christians faith does discomfit me. A great many people all over the world are suffereing as a result - and it's going to get much worse.

Think of it as a metaphor. The heritage was in the architecture. These buildings have lasted a thousand years in Europe. Todays replacements last a hundred if they are lucky. It says a lot about society today. The more modern it gets, that less stable it becomes. The same applies to the church.

That does not cheer me up as much as one might think.

Then there is hope we may set about to reverse the trend.

The rise of atheism and anti-theism in North America is directly attributable to what churches have done, and what they have claimed. People don't believe, and they really don't want a faith they don't believe in affecting laws and public policy. Christianity and its leaders have been their own worst enemies by being blatantly hypocritical and siding with the wrong side of history on so many occasions. That has only accelerated the growth of the "nones".

But the charge that Christianity is being replaced by an "anti-Christians faith" is completely nonsensical. Non-faith is replacing faith, not a faith that Christianity is wrong. Christians who are looking to be persecuted think that, but the truth is that there are a lot of faiths out there, and non-faith doesn't believe in any of them. Christianity, then, is just one in a long list of faiths that fail to impress. It's nothing special.

As much as we are witnessing the decline of the church, the closing and tearing down of church buildings (which is sad because there are many beatiful buildings which make excellent communal spaces and worship spaces...but they are not everything.), I think if our eyes are open we can also see a growing number of people (in church and not) aware of the greed which manipulates the world we live in. Just read through some of the conversations here. The Occupy Movement is another example.  Among movements like Occupy are people living the gospel in the world, not just sitting down in a pew singing stale hymns about it. Perhaps as the old church fades because it's old ways lose their relevance among younger people who are ready to embrace new ways of tackling the challenges we face (for me, antiquated rituals may be interesting to learn about but they don't get the heart of things...for me, I must admit they are just rote practices in many cases unless we are allowed to renew and create as we go), the new church will emerge...buildings or no buildings, polity or no polity (which I agree often looks a lot like the church has embraced the ideals of aspects of  the world is not supposed to reflect, but resist). Meanwhile we work with what we've got, and God willing, transform it  with what is in our hearts going forward.

Graeme, you asked about our Christian heritage.  Support for Inns from the Cold", Habitat for Humanity, concerts, art, Church camps, Vacation Bible school, youth groups raising money to make connections with communities in other countries, volunteer visitors in hosptals, meals prepared for families experiencing a death or serious challenge are a few of the many bits of our Christian heritage that is left.  I am sure others here could post better examples.

See Kimmio managed to provide a better example while I was working on mine. The Occupy movement, even if it is not explicitly Christian, it relies on the idea of the equal worth of all people which is what I thought our faith roots include.

Quite true.Churches do good work. I think though, church systems (polity...or just "the way it's always been done" or "according to the manual" and things like that)  are not keeping up with awareness and pace of change and of need, often because they're tied up with red tape, just like everywhere else. So, often, people and groups with loose structures and little polity and without fixed traditions holding them back have more freedom of movement, creativity, and can adapt to changes more easily...and that often happens outside of formailized structures....and I think with movements like Occupy, we witnessed some of that. Who says that's not God at work?

I just had a thought reading Kimmio's post:  there are two kinds of Christian heritage: the heritage associated with institutions and denominations and buildings, and the heritage of the spirit of what Jesus was about, of remaking the world in tune with the Spirit.

I just had a thought about "comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable". The closing of churches, is in a big way, afflicting the comfortable, but that doesn't and can never kill the Spirit  Jesus lived in and through and displayed and taught, by which the essence of the church is formed and continually transforming. I too, tend to settle into my comfort zone at times, which may not manifest as settling into church traditions. I have my routines. Some useful, and some not so much...nevertheless, I need a kick in the pants, so to speak, sometimes, to keep moving and embracing change. Change, whether it be things like the Occupy Movement, or changes within the church, can feel uncomfortable to embrace at times. 

Jim - the  spirit of Jesus is precisely what I was talking about. My point is that the building was no loss of heritage at all.

chansen - I'm afraid you are so fixated on a world of theism and anti-theism that you really can't see the point.

Even if you are an atheist, you have morals. You recognize some need for what you call good ones for a society to survive. We are plunging deeply into a new sort of faith, one that exalts greed, torture, even murder as virtues. Follow the American election. Watch the Jesus jumpers and the atheists on the same side, cheering on torture and mass murder and greed as things that are good. They are not simply dropping out of religion. They have invented a new set of morals quite unconnected with any sort of religion. That apples to Obama almost as fully as it applies to Romney.

And the atheists are proving they can be as ruthless as any Christians have ever been. The message of Jesus is being abandoned on both sides with equal indifference.

I know the church operates camps and does other useful things. I didn't say it has disappeared. I said it is dwindling - and rapidly so.

I suppose my realization of this goes back to the story of the chaplain who told our troops in AFghanistan they were doing an important job. yes. We sent young people there to get killed while themselves killing people in a country that had not attacked anybody. We did it for the most cynical of reasons. And there were our chaplains to God bless the whole hypocrisy. I dread Nov. 11 when the clergy will turn out in full flower to hide the reasons we've been killing and sending people out to kill.

What is rhe relationship between morality of any sort ( even atheist) and the distribution of wealth in this country?

chansen has missed the change that is taking place. It has been marked since - oh - 1950 or so. It is not that people are adopting ideas hostile to the church or that they are drifting away . It is that people, especially those with economic and political power, are taking pride in publicly embracing a "morality" of greed and exploitation and brutality.

Attend a business meeting. Learn that greed is good, that creating poverty and suffering is a virtue.

And, yes, I know that sort of thing has always been there. But it is now the dominant force - and still growing.

chansen - your atheism is cute. But it's as irrelevant and out of date as moustache wax.

And that would be a great metaphor if atheism was falling like the sales of moustache wax. Unfortunately for you, the opposite is true.

You can try to dismiss the simple answer that fewer people believe every year, and for good reasons, but the truth has a nasty habit of not going away when you close your eyes.

Actually atheists are dwindling along with the religious, while agnostics are growing.

And none of what you suggest is true, either. The number of athiets is relatively constant. The number of people not identifying with a particular religion is increasing. That does not mean they don't believe in God. Those who believe in God are still in an overwhelming majority in Canada, in spite of your own prejudicial wishes.

Yes, many people still believe in God.

They just don't believe much in the words of Jesus. our society operates on a new morality that is anti any religious morality I know of.

That's why atheism has become irrelevant - as has agnosticism.

People today just have a higher reverence for themselves. Unfortunately, for the most part it is a false reverence of self glorification for it is based on outside influence and commodities and not anything of personal value. Since the inception of the non-failure policy in the world, faux values are running rampant. Massive quantity lacking quality where all is acceptable

Ahhhh....so the increase in the "nones" has nothing to do with those who simply don't believe. I see. Does this mean the 100% increase in the "nones" over the last 20 years are all people who don't necessarily reject belief in God, but completely reject religious leaders like yourself? That's plausible.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/04/07/teens-lose-faith-in-droves/

In terms of religious identification among Canadians aged fifteen or older, 2001 Canadian census data reveal that 43% identify as Roman Catholic (compared with 45% in 1991), 29% as Protestant (compared with 35% in 1991), 6% with nonChristian religious traditions (compared with 4% in 1991), and 16% have “no religion” (compared with 12% in 1991). When asked if they believed in God or a higher power, 54% of teens responded, “Yes, I definitely do” in 1984, and 6% said, “No, I definitely do not.” In 2008, 37% stated, “Yes, I definitely do,” and 16% indicated, “No, I definitely do not” (p. 49). http://files.efc-canada.net/min/rc/cft/V04I01/Beyond_The_Gods_and_Back_Review.pdf

But, as three of you now say, atheism is not growing. That means an increase from 6% to 16% for people who "definitely do not"  believe in God or a higher power between 1984 and 2008 is, ummm....insignificant. Sure.

And remember - the "nones" among teens in 2008 was 32%, up from 12% in 1984. You guys can keep burying your heads in the sand and searching for some convoluted reason why attendance is down. For someone like me who thinks Christianity has too much influence and wishes to see a decline in religiousity in general, your failure to even admit the basic problem of declining belief means you'll be spinning your wheels for another few years at least.

I still say your problem is that kids are thinking for themselves, which is something that is not in the best interests of Christianity. You have to get to them before they can see through the brainwashing of your faith. You need gullible little kids, and preferably the simple ones who don't ask good questions.  As long as parents aren't bringing the littlest ones in for a weekly indoctrination, your faith is screwed.

chansen. You don't seem to understand. None of these figures have any relevance.

The defining fact of the last 40 years in the western world is the emergence of a new morality (sometimes cloaked in religion, sometimes not) which is profoundl\y anti-christian and, indeed, anti any religious philosophy I h ave ever heard, and probaby anti most athiest morals.

You think you're n the vanguard of something current and trendy. You're not even in  the neighbourhood.

the "nones" do not always mean atheist.  indeeed I suspect many of them may count atheism as relevant a religious position (which is what it is) as any of the other faiths.  agnostics may describe many of them better. 

Indeed.

I really have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I have never claimed to be trendy. Rejecting faith is not about doing what's trendy - it's about rejecting baseless and dangerous claims.

I realize, and have realized for some time, that you have no idea what I am talking about. In brief:

Our economic leaders reject absolutely any recognition of what we normally call morals. Christian, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Confusicists - and atheists and agnostics are broadly quite similar in morals. Few would advocate theft or murder, etc. as acceptable behaviours.

However, in higher business and political circles of the western world, these are now openly accepted and classed as "good things". Greed is good. Ignoring those who need help is good. Killing, even mass slaughter of innocents, is quite acceptable. Self-interest is a virtue.  These things have always been there, of course. but now they are openly counted as virtues.

Some of the people who hold these views claim to believe in God, some are agnostics, some are atheists. it really doesn't matter.

We have come to a point at which it doesn't matter whether you deign to find God socially acceptable. The old religious quarrels don't matter. What matters is a new morality which is enormously destructive for all of us.

Good post Graeme. the world of man is seemingly squashing the Gospel of the Kingdom. But a surprise awaits.

In your opinion... as always. It's always about you and your beliefs.

Actually, it's about the fact that your faith is in a tailspin, and how you get your hackles up when someone points out the bloody obvious to you.

And do you see in an era of scientific progress any signs of decay or decline? Is it obvious that when morality is self determined that we may not be "our brothers' keeper" in the future?

Don't come to me with concerns of "morality" w.r.t. a decline in Christianity. We're too busy mopping up from the evils of pious men of the past and present to shed a tear for their waning faith. Christianity has not cornered the market on morality, and in many cases couldn't pick morality out of a lineup.

But Chansen if Christianity or any BS is declining shouldn't our morality be taking a giant leap from the decline? Are you saying that eradicating all faiths will bring us closer to world peace? Or a more improved world? Do tell us your vision.

I see the decline in morality too. Regardless of religion. Mass consumption is the new religion. What's the proportion of  self-proclaimed 'believers' (of any faith) to 'atheists' on Wallstreet I wonder?  A rhetorical question because it makes no difference. However, I believe faiths properly understood and followed ( not coerced  by way of dogma) would not lead to the type of greed that we see happening in the world...with atheism, what's there to guide morality other than instinct and /or conscience, what's the common denominator (a sincere question.. because I was agnostic and asked it then too, relied on my own conscience--which we all do-- but with a dwindling number of historical examples and role models to look to in an age where greed and self interest is "good", implicitly, if not always explicit. Faith is a blessing to me, because it keeps me grounded and mindful of what's important--not financial or material gain--not what the marketplace dictates is important. It reminds me to be humble, to be forgiving. Christians have one shining example among all of them, Jesus, who is the centre of the faith to look to and learn from when the world around us, with artificial systems and values which guide how we live growing at warp speed, doesn't match our moral compass)...and what if someone is missing their instinct or conscience to be good to others, or it is not nurtured somehow, or if they are being decieved to believe greed is good, flooded with pressure to be what the marketplace wants them to be--what it says is "successful"...where's the moral compass and what's the path? Do atheists have something they can look to to realize when their morality is veering off course? I think of the verse "you cannot love God and mammon (money)."  Somehow, some groups have conveniently tied God's love with financial gain, and power to manipulate, however. It's misleading.

Then again, morality is doing better in certain respects than many past eras of history  that were particularily brutal, where there were no human rights, no women's rights, no right to vote, etc., people were crucified in the public square, people kept and beat slaves. Nowdays, I would say it's a little better in most places.

It's not the ENRON's, BP's, Fanne May's we should worry aboot but the average, normal, everyday people who cause the most harm?

"We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us"

-- Occupy Wall Streeters

taken from a longer talk

A history of violence

Is postmodernism a problem?

Future of religion

of course graeme should join with the winners

"A is for Allah, nothing but Allah;
Ba is the beginning of Bismillah;
Ta is for Taqwa, bewaring of Allah;and Tha is for Thawab, a reward;
Ja is for Janna, the Garden of Paradise;
Ha is for Hajj, the blessed pilgrimage;
Kha is for Khaatem, the seal of the prophethood given to the Prophet, Muhammed (SAW);
Da is for Deen, Al-Islam, religion with Allah since time began;
Dha is for dhikr, remembering Allah;
And Ra is for the month of Ramadhan, ohh Ramadhan;
Za is for Zakat to pure our greed, when we give our money to those in need;
Sa is for Salamu alaikum, peace be with you wa'alaikum assalam;
Sha is for shams, the shining sun, which Allah placed for everyone;
And Sua is for salat, for when we pray facing him, everyday, facing him, till we meet our lord;

Allah there's only one God and Muhammed is his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Dua is for duha, the morning light, the sun has turned from red to white;
Tua is for tareeq, the path to walk upon;
And Dhua is for dhil, a shadow;
And Aa is for ilm, the thing to know, to make our knowledge grow, in Islam;
Gha is for ghaib, a world unseen and that we know is not a dream;
Fa is for, the Opening, Al-Fatiha;
And Qua for the Qur'an, the book of God;
And Ka is for kalima, a word we're taught to teach us what is good and what is not;a
Nd La is for the beginning of La ilaha illa'allah;
Ma is for the Messenger Muhammed-ur-Rasoolillah.

La ilaha illa'allah, Muhammed-ur-Rasulilllah;
Allah, there's only one God and Muhammed is his Messenger.
Allah, la ilaha illa'allah;

Na is for nawm, the sleep God gave to give us rest after the day;
Ha is for the Hijra, the journey that, the Prophet made;
And Wa for wudu before we pray to help us wash our sins away;
And Ya for Yawm-mid-Deen;

Allah, there's only one God and Muhammed is his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and Jesus was his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and Mely is his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and Witch is his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and Noah was his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and he created Adam, and we are the children of Adam.
Allah,La ilaha illa'allah;
Allah, there's only one God and chansen is his Messenger.
Allah, La ilaha illa'allah."

--with apologies to Yusuf Islam (once Cat Stevens) "A is for Allah"

Not at all. YOU claim it's in a tailspin. YOU sling your insults like the tail end of a manure spreader. Get it? It's always about YOU and YOUR opinions.

It's not about YOU, at all.

My posts are my opinions, shaped by what facts I can find and my own observations. Of course my posts are about me and my opinions. What the hell else would you expect?

You don't like what I have to say, but then, if what I think is true, then you've based your whole career on perpetuating the teachings of a series of con men. Nobody could possibly expect that you're going to like my opinion that a reduction in religion is a good thing, but I think it's your wilfull ignorance to the fact that many more Canadians just don't aren't buying what you're selling, that sets you apart.

You can conjure up a God and tell me that this God is real to you. You can't conjure up that millions of Canadians who state that they do not believe, are actually believers who are not religious. Your imagination affects you and the people who buy into your weekly story readings - not the rest of us, not StatsCan, and not reality.

I think Chansen it becomes offensive sometimes when you discount the good that comes from "religion". There are many that would tell you otherwise and I'm sure that many of the ministers even on this site are aware of the good and the comfort that a believing  community nurtures to the world. I suppose the key is understanding Jesus is a healthy way. For me religion isn't the root of all evil although I admit it can be misused. Even if all the BS were eradicated off the face of the earth there would still remain the trials and errors of humanity. When one focuses on doing good and following the teachings of Jesus, there is a peace within and without that is enabled for the good of the world.

Well, chansen, you have  your pulpit. Tell us all about what atheism has done to make this a better world. Explain how the idea of medicare, the red cross, social progarmmes, etc. all came out of atheism.

It is interesting that you should see through a con game that thousands of years and over a billion people have not seen through.

You must have a very superior mind. You must have God really worried.

What, by theh way, is your definition of this God that doesn't exist?

By the way, you  still have not understood the point I was making about morality - and you haven't replied to it. It's kind of important because it's the reason why your obsession with atheism is moustache wax.

Speaking of heritage churches. I just posted on another thread. There are lots of heritage churches in Vancouver, and they are not prepared for earthquakes. Just thought I would mention it.

Well, that's a cheery thought as I sit here on the dreary edge of a hurricane, an edge that should stay dreary for a full week.

Been thinkin' of young chansen.

It's well known we can't prove Got exists. After all, that's why we call it faith.

But it can't be proven that God doesn't exist.

So why debate something know of us can ever demonstrate to be true?

That leaves his accusations that the church has done enormous harm over the years. well,

1. There have been quite a few churches over those years. How can he point to THE church.?

2. Things can't do harm. Things have no inherent capacity to act in any way, good or bad. Only people can do harm. You're quite right that some nominal Christians have done a great deal of harm Some h ave also done a lot of good through their churches.

Have you compiled a comparative list of these two categories?

3. Some nominal atheists have done a great deal of harm. How come you don't blame atheism for it?

4. Do you have a comprehensive list of good and bad works performed by Christians, atheists, and all other identifiable groups over the centuries?

5. If not, how come you can make these broad condemnations?

God clearly stated His division was between this world and his Kingdom, our ways and His. To stand up for the Kingdom would not allow us to take sides within the world, for we are all sinners and He also clearly stated we cannot serve two masters. We can only take His side in this world if we wish to claim allegiance to Him. That means bringing His Kingdom into this one as He said in Matthew 24: 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. He did not say make the Kingdom about our ideals in this world, thus bringing the world into His Kingdom. There will be a bouncer at the door..

oh. So we should just let murderers, rapists, bank robbers, Baptists.. do whatever they want to?

Reginald Bibby's "A New Day" (2012, PDF e-book) offers a free, up to date analysis of religious trends in Canada by a well-known Canadian academic socioligist who was worked in this area for many years.

He describes quite a fluid picture, which he confesses differs from his earlier analyses. Sorry that I don't know how to offer an adequate brief summary, but I do recommend anyone interested in the numbers to read (or at least skim) his results.

Societal division is not the same as division between the morally (for the most part) sound... and the murderers, rapists, bankers, Baptists..

good point.

Anger accounts for much...