bump

I think always, in your heart, if they're holy for you.

CrazyHeart

For me, as long as there is memory the land is holy....

It can be desecrated the land will hold the memory

the wind will carry the spirits of the wise  ones

the streams will hold the gurgling and bubbling laughter of the children

as long as there is wind and elements, the land will carry the memory of Holy.

CH

Here is the news on the First Nations cemetery. Its so tragic, so sad to think about the little kids. Its a big job trying to determine how many are buried there using some special instruments. They're going to try again in the spring the article said.  Its 22 for now. What a horrific chapter in Canada's history.

You know there were a lot of Indians in Canada we know from history and I've often wondered where many of them are buried as there are so few cemeteries in lieu of what their numbers must have been way back then. Stones would be destroyed in any case after all the years.

Trying again to get a live link:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/story/1.2600823

live I hope

http://www2.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/weekender/story.html?id=1a1...

In Loving Memory of the Children - Sask. Residential  School

I don't believe holy places are buildings

They are found when a mother kisses her child

When someone comforts a friend.

When we reach out and help someone

Whenever we pray

Everywhere, anytime, every moment...because God is there

HI crazyheart,

Holiness is a function of being set apart for a specific purpose.  At least by definition.  There is no real attention paid to who does the setting apart and why.

So PCTC was set apart for a specific purpose by someone and everyone who participated in PCTC also set that place apart from other places in their lives for reasons known only to themselves.

PCTC can be shut down and sold to others.  Rendering it a mundane place in the eyes of those who originally set it apart for a specific purpose.  That is not automatic for all who through their involvement set PCTC apart for reasons they alone know.

Camp Ganadoweh was a United Church camp.  I spent three years on staff there.  I got to know many of the rocks, trees and bodies of water that ran amonst it very well.  There were places there that I set apart for specific purposes.  They are places that I hallowed.

The fact that those places now belong to someone else means that my getting access to them is not a given.  Those places may even be removed by new landscaping.  They don't cease to be come holy as far as I am concerned.  They become lost.  Places I may never find again.  To be fair, many of those places I haven't been to in 15 years or so and because they were not cathedrals wrought by humna hands they have probably changed and I might not have been able to find them again had I gone looking.

I know where they should be.

I have also found, among bricks and mortar, places which I found holy.  Over the years those places have been lost to me.  My Grandfathers back yard has been lost for 44 years.  No matter how current and past owners change that house and the landscaping I remember where the apple tree stood and the currant bushes.  I remember the joy I felt in that place as much as the love.

That yard will never cease to be a place where I touch those memories and the reality which birthed them.  I will never willingly walk in it again it has been so desecrated.  Not that any who had control of it set out to ruin the place for me, they were engaged in making it a place for them and perhaps in so doing they found a holy place for themselves.

For some it certainly would be.  I have never thought of cemeteries as holy or sacred.  Essentially they are well kept dumps.  That said, their contents still mean something to someone and that meaning should be respected.

As long as we keep them set apart for whatever reason they remain holy.  Even if we are the only ones willing to keep them set apart and even if we can only manage that in our memory.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Holy places are dimensions that are not there ... like thoughts in the case of overly emotional brains ...

In such cases thoughts are not raised up and thus remain subtle in the land ... like a line in the san ... or cle' o'patros ... a derivation of patty ...

An old aphorism says you'd never remember noth'n without Mac Dowel ... a dark cane'n that would blister your bootie ... plumpest parts aside as sects? Much too cheeky in theis crypt ...

That's c-RIPP'ð as nondestructive cynicism about sects ... the gravid nature of it is all round ... drives or emotites people to think of L'uv ... a mostly occult action in the shades ... usually with 'elle to pay after wards ... as some responsibility used to be attached ... today there is little reverence for anything ... why some westerners demand to carry arms to avoid escape for a devilish place of demotaic from unknown dimensions!

Can you attach demote as to humble ... that's CONNECTIONS---J'aimes Burke ... that small feeling when crossing the law of not getting caught at doing wrong and being a pain in the ass asis reflection ...

Crazyheart

Good question......your quote:

"Is the place Holy forever or is it no longer holy when it is sold and torn down." end of quote

I've always wondered the same when churches are purchased whole and used for other purposes? My own belief is that wherever we have been for any length of time our energy stays alive in that place. We often  say : " I feel so-and-so in this place". Its the memories, the energy contained therein. We can call it  Holiness.  At the Native burial site its as Pinga says...the spirits of the children are skipping rope in the field. In cemeteries I don't like walking on top of the graves, its  kind of  a desecration.

Rev. John: Thanks for your marvellous description of holy places although I don't appreciate your referring to cemeteries as dumps. I prefer to be a little less harsh, a little more gentle.  (We can't argue, its a holy thread)

Hi  Crazyheart--A good thread --What is a Holy Place?I believe your asking?

I find or believe that a place  were GOD is at, is Holy. In which case it could mean were ever a saint, or follow of GOD is ,who has GODS holy Spirit. The very ground they stand on is holy. Please also remember we have ground around us . As the flesh is of the ground.I would gusse that also works for the church . For it is called The House of GOD. .It all is were those who have GOD with them meet. Can other things be HOLY? I would say yes , as GOD has use many animals is His word to be Holy.There in my Belief  lies I gusse. GOD is all Holly so where GOD is that place, or ground, or that Soul , is HOLY. 

God Bless--airclean33

Here's people speaking from the  WC including CH and another Sask. person. Oh my....its so silent, so calm on the WC,  so glorious . Hello to all these folks wherever they may be today.

@airclean33.....Hello up there!

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/health-aging/most-spiritual-places-canada

.

Even Roosevelt said to walk easy, carry a big stick ... like Muses ... carry it crossways so if you step into ID you won't be completely sucked in ... god's place is very sensitive to mortal attitudes about doing away with thought, knowledge and wisdom ... a very creepy precident if you ask me ... from me, a sinful thinker that's going to 'elle, or el according to a bunch of religious hard cases (stones?) that tried to tell me knowledge and science is evil ... if only they had some prescience and fore thought to see what a maas they were getting the world into ... alas self-destructive so again ... god could rest! God illusions don't do much at all, in the line of intelligence that is ... what's the options?

It appears to be the way the bullies and fortées wished it ... thus intellect lives on the other side of the veil ... a large fabrication to say least about its clouded nature ... another step in the quantuum latter deis as a deisism that few monotheists would conjure ... if you can't see timaeus ... it creeps on yah ... and you have to dig through as in an 'our class ...

Einstein said that time, light and space were all equivalent or equine ... sort of like a hoers with wings ... 4 of eM according to the bible as the damn thing spins ... he even imagined that if you were our in space ... imagining ... time would cloe or shift as does light in the red-shift. Do you suppose there's something to or in the blue shift thingy or is that just a neigh lass in skivies? Smooth under fabrics! Isn't that just like the devil, or sat'n in crimson to stir alien hungers? Caesar said this was evil but some histories say he was in bed or abba'd state with everyone and everything due to his compulsive scro'n about with thinngs he was determined not to know ...

Some mortals would like to keep such alien knowledge to theirselves (hieros gamma) Lucely translated as sacred dimension ... you can't get at his po' sole from here as it is off in soliloquey ... standing on the end of a pile singing like heh cleff and G'r'True'd ... a warped thought to many that can't take thinking straight up ... too ruagh for eM! Emotionally unstable ... thus messing up Archimedis Prin. ... even according to Jonah his baggage wouldn't float ...

I believe that all land is holy.

But some land or buidings may be set aside for particularly sacred purposes by a group of people, and thus is especially holy to them. The rest of us should honour that.

Tread carefully

This Land,

Our Land,

Holy Land.

-Arminius

If you are a pantheist or panentheist (I tend towards the former at present), then God is present in all moments and all places making all of existence, strictly speaking, holy ground. It is just that we are more mindful of that presence in some places than others.

Mendalla

Duh! Deleted. Wrong thread.

Places are holy to those who deem them to be holy.  What is a holy place for one is not holy for another.  Some refer to places of special meaning as sacred.  Is holy and sacred the same thing?

While we might not share holy or sacred places as the same, I would like to think that most persons would be respectful of another's place set aside as holy or sacred if possible.

I think burial grounds are sacred and should be treated as such by all.

"the kingdom of God is within you" ... someone said that...

For me .... the holy ground is inside.....

Regards

Rita

Rita is it odd fact that atoms are only 1/(10 to the 23 power) empty space ...

Thus a place to store the dark energy of thought inside Electra ... and thus the damn thing is calmed until probed by outside impulses ... some would epitomize this as poke'n the þi guy ... or is that just guise peeved over the ephraim genre of ribbon with that red hue? Such Ire has driven men bullish for millenia ... few have learned control of self ... so why should they be allowed a' Moor? Thus that genre grows Grumpy as Old Men! Some women appear as confused ... but all is scattered unevenly ... as no one knew in the beginning ...

The hills above PCTC / Calling Lakes Centre, and the lake below will always be special places to me.  To me all places are holy, aquatic places more so perhaps than land.  I like John's description of cemeteries as dumping grounds.  There are many cemeteries/burial places associated with residential schools that have been lost for decades with some being rediscovered--about half of the children who went to residential schools died there.

What makes some holy places especially sacred to me are my connections to them.

Dead wisdom is always a draw when you live with crazies and have to simulate them so as to fit in ... escape is against the law a illegitimate sacrifice ... someone else appear to own the wee folk ... and you know how keeping up appearances is ...

Jim, Five Oaks is like that for me.

As I drive down the lane into the property, i could leave the world behind.

Walking the labrynthe on the flats by the confluence of the Grand River and Whiteman's Creek ....whether with children laughing as they jumped the spaces or adults slowly finding their way through with gentle passing.....deep sigh.

Sitting with a bevy exploring the 10th layer of why's regarding politics, relationships and our faith until 2in the morning or over breakfast.

For me, I would try to spend time with folks who also found that place to be holy.  

it was a gift to me in a time that i needed it and one that I hope to be able to experience again.

Yes, Rita, the kingdom of God is within.

And, from my experience, once we have found it within, we see it all around, and create it all around.

I believe that WonderCafe is a holy place.

Holy is where the spirit is at.

Some Opening Words (= Call to Worship) I wrote in 2008 2007 that are somewhat relevant.

This is not a holy place,
Sanctified by a fallen saint,
Or the statue of some bodhisattva.
No, there is nothing innately holy about this place.
Rather, it is our presence in it that makes it holy.
For it is here that we gather,
     To celebrate and commiserate
     To sing with joy and weep with sorrow
     To shout Hosannas and to observe solemn silence.
Come in, come in to this place,
And help us to make it holy.
For it is the holiness in our own hearts that brings us here,
And is the sacred nature of ourselves and our universe,
That we come to worship.

Mendalla

and the people said "amen"

Very well said Mandalla.

Amen and Amen

Amen

I came back to post this link again in case nobody bothered with it up thread  since it wasn't live. I have a new puter and browsers. I'm learning Win 7,Outlook and Win Live email.

This is a beautiful read....too bad so many of  these people left us.

Crazyheart,

Could I call your new avatar as having a red eye ... bulls sometime suffer this ...

They're good after being hungova with too much fruit of devine and laughing too hard at how people will believe in lack of intellect ... is this anti wise? Could we call this ante-Christ when the lights come back on in GEO Gaia ... things start to glow as another Dais ... recycling of V-Nus? It is a Classic Word in ancient wisdom ... alas its pas'ð! This may be transmuted to pasch-eL Lam ... just in case you myst dite!

There are those that despise wisdom as it appears ill applied like in the Roman attitude towards possessing things that were un-gifted to them ... con courage?

Apply this to their property as women: are the damned things possessed, possessé, or possess-antes as you just know somebodies going to get it if this affinity keeps up ...? Such is the rising or resurrection of gravity, a divine attraction of fecund things left hanging in space like Peter (graft) at the gae-ting off of all intelligence ... by pure emotional judi'Nz ... an awesome power on the beaches when some watering is in sight for kohl'n the eis!

Once wise to this you can write in a way to preserve the sanctity of side windings ... con cubage, cuþis, or those discreet things that went on biblically in the support of a general emote've thing like sectual motivation in charismatic preacher who often get caught with Pans off ... thus the conception of out of the Pan sand into the pyre ... Ur the upstanding one a Mag dell in ... a kind of veil/vale giving kohl shades of Valkyres .. and some of thes lasses blew kohl winds on the heated parties? Yet some bulls could not accept gnoe'n negatives and mistook this as Y'-ass-ess and didn't see who the sentient party was as essence of an ass ... rael chits! What you get when raising demons devoid of knowledge of the a'moor's effect!

One has to have open soul and open heart to consume such ellusive stuff as metaphysical ... like Heiseinberg  ... stand back and laugh at wat you can't see when in it ... the arnon roar in the bibble that concordances leave out as superficial biblica scholars don't wish you to possess such knowledge as it is metaphysical and sort of grows on yah ... on this deis of palming things off on mankind as God does ... with things heh can't handle as data ... the intellect on the road to wisdom in death and then you're out of IÐ! Aagin repetition of the citi or what to the Hebrew is chaos of the other kind ... an intelligent affection? NOSH-ite it can be snotty and tacky to those without mental connects ... Tyres like inçi Don ...

What's Don? That's like a hole in denight and on the break you can see pearly light ... a odd reflection of what's 2-come ... dependant on the waywards winds of creation and how catharsis procedes ...