Actually, axial tilt and the winter solstice is the reason for the season. Christianity just jumped on the bandwagon and renamed it.

I was going to say the same thing. The winter solstice has been celebrated by people since, I would say, the beginning of civilization. Christians are just one more group to recognize this astronomical event. The 25th of December itself was likely chosen as Christmas Day as it marks the 3rd day after the Sun is at it's lowest point in the sky, e.g. the winter solstice on the 21st of December. It takes 3 days for the Sun to make it's turn around this lowest point, therefore, on the 3rd day the Sun begins to rise again. Sound familiar?

No, because from the 21st to the 25th is 4 days.

 

Should have got here sooner.  I too say the reason for the season is the solstice - celebrated since pre historical times.  Other religions found various ways to celebrate and then Christianity jumped on the bandwagon.

 

Basically I love it - we NEED something to look forward to and provide some light, joy and yummy foods during the cold and dark.  I truly don't care what people call it!

Ok, it's a stretch but I assumed that you didn't count the 25th.


There are other astronomical reasons for Christians adopting this season as Christmas Day. See

If you want to go that route (and I have no idea how you can type that with a straight face), then I can point out that Jesus was only dead for 2 days - Friday to Sunday. If you argue some ancient timekeeping practice of calling part days whole days, then you have to apply it here, too.

 

If you're going to go all "numerology" on an engineer, at least get the math right.

Ha, ha, you are funny Chansen.

No, I'm not going to argue the details between Easter and Christmas, or why Christmas Day was chosen when it was. But it does seem very obvious that was related to the winter solstice.

 

Your Winter Solstice can't give you this ------

 

Peace

 

For those who want to hear a Great Message ----The Cross ----

 

Rev. Billy Graham's "Message To America" ~ 95th Birthday ~ My Ho

 

 

We each develop our own ways of understanding.  Yours is no more valid than anyone else's. 

 

 

Hi kaythecurler     ----your quote   ----We each develop our own ways of understanding.  Yours is no more valid than anyone else's. 

 

Show me where I said it was -----I simply believe The Bible ---which it says itself is God's word and I believe it is the word of God like it says ---Period ---- 

 

Peace and Merry Christmas to you

Well, that settles it. I've officially lost this debate. If God's words are in the bible, and the bible says it's God's word, how the hell can anyone say any different?

 

I feel so defeated and...encircled.

 

Unsafe, the winter solstice is an astronomical event to which the birth of Jesus appears to be attributed to. To say that "the winter solstice can't give you {insert bible quote here}" is revealing your fundamentalism to which it would appear that nothing that anyone says is ever going to deter you from your staunch beliefs. Good luck with that.


"Jesus" is not the "reason" for the season. Jesus has been "attributed" to the season.

Jesus freaks are, however, the reason for some of the more annoying parts of the season. I can grant unsafe that point.

 

 

 

Hi Neo    your quote   "Jesus" is not the "reason" for the season. Jesus has been "attributed" to the season.

 

That is your opinion not mine -----You are entitled to your opinion ---as I am ----Jesus to me is the reason for the season ----you can stay with your winter solstice as the reason for the season -----my choice Jesus ---your choice winter solstice ---we think different is all ----

 

Peace and Merry Christmas to you Neo --- 

Hi Kaythecurler -- Why do you know another Living GOD that comes in  an hepls you? What is the name of this god.. Mind is The Living GOD of Christs Why do you think  Unsafe wants to be better than you? I don't thats for sure . I want you to be just as full of GODS living Spirit  as any Christain can be. I have no Idea how anyone can say there Christain an not carrey GODS Holy Spirit. There are those hear who think I brag when I say , I speak in Tonghes , I cast out demons, I have layed hands on the sick  and they have got well. Perhapes I should havs said. I speak in Tongues. Dont you? I cast out demans. Don't you? I lay hands on the sick and they get well. Don't you?If not then I say you need to have another look at GODS word . You need to know who is teaching you wrong, and see what you have missed. -- God Bless --airclean33

Unsafe, your problem is that your opinion is not equally valid. The winter solstice was celebrated for thousands of years before the supposed birth of Jesus. That celebration was merely hijacked by Christians, to celebrate a birth that, even of it did occur, certainly did not occur in that time of the year, never mind that exact day.

 

Once again, Christianity does not care about being correct, it just cares about being popular. That strategy used to work, before more and more people started cluing in.

 

So, no, Jesus is most certainly *not* the reason for the season. Making something rhyme does not make it true, or Kanye West would be among the most knowledgable people on Earth.

 

 

[edited for a richly deserved dig at Kanye]

Believe me, when I read you writing things like that, I don't just think about bragging. I think about mental illness as well.

 

And again, for the umpteenth time, if you had anything with these claims, you'd be able to show them. You just talk. Nobody buys it. You're absolutely killing your own faith by discrediting it faster than I can.

 

 

Christmas, at least the way it's celebrated now in North America and western Europe, is a cultural event far more than a religious one.

 

The "Keep Christ in Christmas" crowd puzzle me. If they truly value Christ, they will value him throughout the year, not just in December. And now that Christmas is a cultural event, there's no real need to tell others to keep Christ in, as for most people he's not truly a consideration.

 

 

The Birth of Jesus paved the way to all being saved ----I personally feel this is a reason to celebrate ---who came up with the date to me is not important --it is the beginning of our Salvation no matter what the date was --- and that is what is important -----It is the Blood that Jesus shed at His brutal beating and being nailed to the cross  that Saves us not the birth or the Human Figure  ---and we should Thank and Praise Him all year around for the Precious Blood He Shed  for us ---

 

Peace

Then take your blood cult crap and leave the rest of us who want to gather with friends and family and experience a season of giving, alone. If you keep trying to impose scripture and your defenceless ideas on everyone, you're just going to find yourself knocked on your ass time and again.

 

- Hi Chansen --Just a couple of thinks you may not understand .1#  First it has been showen the week Christ died there were two Holy days. Israel  has high holy days which can fall on any day in the week . Much like Chrismas. In this week it  So if you check you may find  .Jesus The Christ didn't die on a fri. But most likely a wed just befor sundown.

Mat 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This is the promise  sign  Jesus said to his Discples. Two #  The Jewish day does not begin at sunrise but sundown.So as you mite see your Idea is just a bite off . As is many. Jesus was put in the grave just at sundown wed. Which to the jews would be a high sabath Thurs. 3#  Then we find Mary Magdalene on the first day of the week. Which by the way is not mon  but sunday. Befor the sun had yet come up . You see He could not raise on saterday  befor sundown as that would have broke the Sabathday. Can you find the three days and three nights now? --

Jhn 20:1

Now on the first day of the week Mary Mag'dalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

This was the only sign Jesus was going to give . To show who He was and it looks like most of the churchs got it wrong.----

Mat 12:39

But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

I hope your day gose well---airclean33

If you read what I wrote above (and you clearly did not), I acknowledged that part days could be whole days, and I understood the argument that the day started at sundown.

 

Okay, let's do the sum again, using your timeline:

 

Wednesday before sundown = day 1

Wednesday after sundown = day 2

Thursday after sundown = day 3

Friday after sundown = day 4

Saturday after sundown = day 5

Finally wakes up from his drunken stupor on Sunday before sundown, late on day 5.

 

So now, Jesus was dead for 5 days and 5 nights.

 

I'm all for this version of the story if it gives me more holidays at Easter, but to me it just shows that Christians have no freakin' idea how long their saviour was out cold, and are making it up as they go along.

 

Chansen-- I thought a smart guy like you .I wouldn't have to show.

Wed at sundown--Start --1 night

Thursday --day-1#

Thursay night---night-2#

Fri--day-#2

Fri--night--Night-3#

Saterday--Day --3#

He can raise anytime after sundown saterday night.( You got it now?)

airclean - I have absolutely no idea what your posts are about.  Could you PLEASE  use your computer's  spell check and grammar check?  After doing that PROOFREAD before hitting the send function. 

Wow that sounds pretty amazing airclean. You can do all this but can you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and cut off the crust? I can but if for some reason you can't I will understand, not everyone can make a mean peanut butter and jelly sandwich like I can.

Unsafe

Speaking about Billy Graham I just posted a new thread. He is quite ill, in and out of hospital with respiratory problems. His son has requested prayers for him.

 

Its impossible to count the number of people he's brought to Christ over the years

 

God be with him and send angels to watch over and protect him always,and buckets full of blessings and renewed energy.

 

((((((((((Billy Graham ))))))))))))

Airclean, that's still four nights, but whatever. You'll ignore anything that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas about Jesus. You have too much personally invested in the stories to stop believing them now. By being completely incoherent and unbelievable, you're just sabotaging your own cause.

 

 

Hi stardust   your quote   Its impossible to count the number of people he's brought to Christ over the years

 

God be with him and send angels to watch over and protect him always,and buckets full of blessings and renewed energy.

 

I Agree It is impossible to count the number of people he has brought to Christ  --I personally believe God is with him and God's angels are all around him ----I always loved to watch Billy Graham ----and from what I know now from my Spiritual Growth in Christ --His family has no worries as I personally feel Mr Graham will dwell  with God when the time comes ----it is only his body that is failing --his Spirit is alive and well .---It is very hard for family to watch a loved one become feeble especially one who was so active for God   ----  This scripture says it well for me ----- 

 

  

 

Peace and Merry Christmas to you stardust

Billy Graham had better be hoping that God doesn't have a soft spot for the Jews.

 

Unsafe

 

 Peace and Merry Christmas to you too.

 

 

 

The earth moves round the sun in the hold of gravity. As chansen notes, the earth is tilted and its surface passes through a cycle of seasons in relationship with the sun, a principle participant in the emergence and experience of human being.

 

The diminished influence of the sun has extended the jurisdiction of the darkness. Primitive minds feared that the dark would prevail. They rejoiced at the sunrise. The earliest manifestation of resurrection mythologies found among all people in all times and places. The circle of life and death, with all the vagaries of daily experience in creation.

 

Jesus, who inspires and encourages me, wants nothing to do with the merchant elites who  have taken hold of the season for the purposes of profit and power. They have taken the Christian mythology captive, exploiting its charm by denying its virtue.

 

Christians are deceived by the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the boastful pride of life. They admire and endorse slick charlatans, adept in the practice of persuasion. Wealth is taken as the indication of divine favour.

 

Randolph Hearst had resources at his disposal. By his press, he accomplished much in shaping American identity and purpose. He dispatched scouts to seek out a young, talented evangelist.The selected person would be shaped for public consumption, as the face of religion in America. It is an interesting story.

 

Billy Graham was the selected candidate. With the unlimited resources provided by Hearst, Graham began to preach his gospel to the American masses.

 

It was scripture quoters who killed Jesus, who I take as exemplar along the way of my being in the world. They had it in writing. No alternative was permitted in imagination. The expression of alternative imagination, as effective action in the commons, was considered subversive.

 

This is how fundamentalism works. Non conformity is prohibited. So transformation is not possible. Idolatry prevails to the hurt of creature and creation.

 

The more fundamental the Christian, the more likely you are in the company of a first class consumer. These are the folk God has doubly blessed. The ones who dress in first class garments and enjoy the finest cuisine. Folk who love to gather round the Gaither family and be blessed out of their socks. Pretenders, calling on the name of Jesus while serving Mammon heart, mind and strength, ignoring the longing of their own soul.

 

My reason for the season? Same as every day of every week through the circle of seasons. To practice the disciplines of care for those whom I love at home and those whom I meet along my way.

 

Another solstice. Another turning of the circle. Another step along my way.

 

George

This is where I think great mistakes are made:

Paying attention to works made by theologians who provide tribalisms (The OT: 'we are the people who are chosen by God')

Paying attention to his death rather than to his teachings.

 

 

 

 

The Christmas story is beautiful and meaningful—if we regard it as the "midrash" it was meant to be: as legend and metaphor with a deeper meaning.

 

As historical or factual truth, however, the Christmas story is unlikely. The various dogmas or doctrines that were derived from the literalization of the Christmas story make it seem absurd. Add to this Santa Claus consumerism, and you make a total mess out of Christmas. Christ-mass becomes Christ-mess.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi stardust

 

One of my Christmas favourites. It speaks to me deeply, and I dance to it madly (as madly as my arthritis will allow :-)

 

Peace and Merry Christmas to you, stardust, and to all of you out there.

 

 

It's interesting that you seek to draw a contrast between his death and his teachings. Did he not teach something through his death.

I was born on March 15th, this is a date in modern times that is associated with the assassination of Julius Ceasar and the Ides of March. In the oldest Roman calenders (not the Julian calender) this month was the first month of the year. The Ides were determined by the full moon. The ides of each month were sacred to Jupiter the supreme Roman Deity. Flamian Dalius, Jupiters high priest, led the "Ides sheep" along the via sacra to the arx where the sheep was sacrificed.

 

The Ides of March is also the "feast of Anna Perenna".  Some sources also place the Mamuralia on the Ides of March.

 

Since I've been born, no one has attributed my birth in relation to any of the above events,only coincidence. And I'm pretty sure the stars, moon and sun aligned in some profound way too.

 

Granted, the day, Dec. 25th,  was chosen for Jesus' birth, most historical scholars and Christians do agree that this is a fact. And most Christians understand that this day aligns with other festivals or celebrations from the past This just becomes an interesting observation and nothing more, IMO.

 

As a Christian, Christimas for me will cause me to reflect, pray and ponder the message of Jesus Christ, my saviour.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying experts agree Dec. 25th is the birthday of Jesus, or that Christians just happened to choose this date to celebrate the birth and the fact that the day overlaps with other, much older celebrations is just a coincidence?

 

Is this close to the darkest day of the year ... just to confuse the elite who say the common folk shouldn't know anything ... contrary to the biblical statement: "Teach my children!" A hint at larger light (thats dark  and deep eh)? Of course this is just symbolic ... icon-IX, nein, or nothing!

 

So the whole thing became a pain in the as-is as thorn in the bottom side to get them aroused and processing ... much like psychopathy (as loosely translated by pathe-pain and psycho-soul effort) and Christian authorities tell us we are not supposed to use that character associated with elite ... so wisdom goes on in the dark's-IDe (Shadow) far from the Airian chaste ... by Moses who was really Piscine about being left in the arid wilderness as a subtle wheted soul! Sharpie in the Kush?

I was only commenting on on the literalism of your statement "Jesus is the reason for the season". Unless you are implying that Jesus imported paprika from the far east, the "season" known as winter occurs because of the tilt of the Earth in relationship to the Sun.


I personally would like to see "religion" taken out the celebrations we have during the winter solstice, for religion has caused more pain and anguish than any other concept that this world has ever known.


The concept of the Christ, however, can never be removed from this season, as the Christ represents the eternal Solar Angel within each of us that descends deep into the underworld at this time of year, only to turn and begin it's journey back again, with the promise of life resurrection from the death of winter in the next season of spring. The winter solstice reminds us that all life is cyclical and that death is only an illusion from our point of view.


Keep Christ in the season but remove the religion from it. Theology has never saved anybody.

 

I reread what I said so I understand the confusion. What I should have said is that most Christians and scholars are well aware that Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25th and that the day chosen also coincides with dates for other past or present celebrations.

 

This happened with Santa Claus or St. Nicholas too. His life of giving used to be celebrated on Dec. 6th and I believe it was the church that combined that celebration with the date for the birth of Jesus. Which was probably a mistake by the church to do so....but it happened.

It wasn't close to a mistake, in any sense. It would have been a calculated move to superceed the existing pagan solstice celebrations, so it's not a mistake in the "unintentional" sense. Also, that move probably helped stamp out pagan beliefs and cement Christianity as the dominant religion, so it wasn't a mistake in the "it didn't work" sense. It worked spectacularly.

 

Was it the right thing to do, to force conversion on so many people and quash their beliefs? Yeah, probably not. Christianity doesn't exactly have a rosy past.

 

Hi waterfall:

 

In Germany, St. Nicholas is celebrated on the feast day of St. Nicholas, Dec 6. The Christchild brings presents to children on Christmas Eve. I don't think the Church ever officially combined the feast day of St. Nicholas with Christmas.

 

Well let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Christianity when lived according to Jesus' teachings is a blessing and a very difficult path. Not many can follow in Christs exact footsteps from the get go. We stumble and fall and the world is watching ready to criticize and sometimes it's justified. Should we stop trying?

 

 

 

Probably it didn't happen officially, but in the West it somehow developed into a combination

 

Yes, chansen, the old Pagan beliefs might have served  us just as well, or better, because the Pagan mythologies were just that: mythologies. But, in the Christian religion, mythology was twisted into facts that had to be believed in blindly. Christianity was made into an authoritarian religion that was particularly well suited to dominate the masses, and for imperialist expansion. It served first the ancient Roman Empire for that purpose, then the Holy Roman Empire, and then the various European empires as they spread all over the globe.

 

 

 

The thing is Arminius, Christianity wouldn't have survived if people were offered something that didn't give us comfort, joy, strength, etc.... The Romans may have had alterior motives but fortunately the "rocks will still cry out and testify", and many have heard the true message.

I think people should stop following a religion with evil roots and partly immoral scripture, even if they do their best to ignore the immoral bits. But that's just me.

 

I think that what you're aiming for, can be achieved more easily without your instruction book of choice. It's like you're trying to make a souffle, and you're following a recipe book by Ted Nugent.